The competition at the wide receiver position

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     




    It's "nerve wracking" that we have Gronk, Ballard and Hern as the best TE group in the entire NFL, Amendola as a veteran  with Michael Jenkins as another proven vet, nice RBs here with experience and full camp together again, with literally 10 other WRs for 2 spots?

     

    This is "nerve wracking"?

    Our passing game has SUCKED in the postseason, so I am pretty sure what it was more "nerve wracking" is our older WRs in previous postseasons not playing very well with Tom Brady leading his preferred shotgun spread.

    THAT's what is "nerve wracking".  What's nerve wracking is when I get that pit in my stomach in the first half because we leave points on the board and never established a proper run game to draw in the LBs from the middle of the field, as we then continue to see our QB only look at the same two receiving options for 40+ times, as if it's a race to get to 40 passes in a lower scoring game.

    THAT is what is "nerve wracking" because I know it won't work.

    I am THRILLED to see a clear change in approach like this, forcing Brady to get his head back to straight, get back to basics and force him to develop a rapport with EVERYONE in camp, instead of throwing 5 yard passes to Wes Welker, Gronk and Hern all summer.

    Thank you, BB. Thank you.  Finally the plug has been pulled and we can move on from a failed, finesse shotgun spread base.

     

     

     




     

    Oh Brother!  I thought you were gone!!! 

    I agree with OP, this is going to be a very interesting and intriguing OTA's, Mini-Camps, and Training Camps at the wide receiver position in a long time. Not only at WR but in several ereas of the defense too.  It is going to be fun to follow and see who ends up on the field to start the regular season.  I'm anxious, I'm nerveous, I'm excited.  I already can't wait for the season to start.  This is going to be a looong few months.  I'm expecting this forum to be more active this season then any other season.

     



    It's called enjoying a vacation over a long weekend. Maybe you should try leaving the house?

     

    I am not nervous at all. I get nervous in January watching Brady look like he's lost, staring over the sidelines all confused when he throws inaccurately to someone else other than Welker.

     



    I was gone most the weekend, bub!  However, I do still take time to check out this place regardless of where I am out.  It's called technology!

    Hopefully BB can put players on the field that are as dependable and productive as Welker was.  Can't fault Brady for going to the guy who is on the field, not hurt and can get open.  Well, I guess you can, lol!!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!




    Yeah, his absence coincided with the guy they found in the Maine woods after 27 years.  But that guy is without internet access now so I guess it's someone else.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/justice/maine-hermit-arrest

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!

     




    Explain how I am getting "owned"?  Stick to the photoshopping.  Those are your ONLY skills here.

     




    Just go back and read the past few threads you posted and people responded to! Owned!  Kind of like this...

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!

     




    Yeah, his absence coincided with the guy they found in the Maine woods after 27 years.  But that guy is without internet access now so I guess it's someone else.

     

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/justice/maine-hermit-arrest




    LOL!

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ...



    Rusty makes garbage up then uses the "because I said so" argument as the reason why.  I think he types too fast for his brain and paints himself into corners.  Patriots don't use anything like the West Coast offense.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    Russ,

    I am not sure how you classify the pats offense, but the one that seems close is walshs west coast offense. He relied on short patterns to spread defenses out, however, this was done as well to set up a long run or pass play. major difference is that San Fran had a legit deep ball threat unlike us To make it work effectively. The pats havent since Moss, and, with Moss, I would argue that that offense was prolific because we can play small and long ball and had very capable and extraordibary players to execute it. That offense as good as it was was missing another key component which is a good run game. And, for whatever reason, became too reliant on one mode of play. 

    Names on jerseys matter. It is unreasonable to believe Brady can be given a bunch of jags and rooks and have them all function at a high level in a complicated offense. Talent, and sometimes big names make a difference. Lets see if Brady and bb can take this and mold inot something effective...but to not be nervous because we have a bunch of injury prone players maning key spots with rooks seems crazy

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Russ,

    I am not sure how you classify the pats offense, but the one that seems close is walshs west coast offense. He relied on short patterns to spread defenses out, however, this was done as well to set up a long run or pass play. major difference is that San Fran had a legit deep ball threat unlike us To make it work effectively. The pats havent since Moss, and, with Moss, I would argue that that offense was prolific because we can play small and long ball and had very capable and extraordibary players to execute it. That offense as good as it was was missing another key component which is a good run game. And, for whatever reason, became too reliant on one mode of play. 

    Names on jerseys matter. It is unreasonable to believe Brady can be given a bunch of jags and rooks and have them all function at a high level in a complicated offense. Talent, and sometimes big names make a difference. Lets see if Brady and bb can take this and mold inot something effective...but to not be nervous because we have a bunch of injury prone players maning key spots with rooks seems crazy




    Agreed.  What is perfect about your example here is you point out a very important and specific piece to the puzzle.  The 49'ers had Rice and the Pats had Moss.  Both legit deep threat receivers that really made everything work.  Something the Pats have not been able to do since Moss left.  Sure, the Pats got by not having a legit deep threat receiver, but a legit deep threat receiver takes everything to the next level. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    I think I finally figured out why he likes TB under center so much.  You have to be good at backpedaling from that position.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    I think I finally figured out why he likes TB under center so much.  You have to be good at backpedaling.




    BWahahahahaha!!! You nailed it dude!!!  And the blows just keep landing!  Rusty owned again!

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.



    Same thing happened last week.  We were told to trust TB's "I prefer the shotgun" quote because it was given "unguarded" to  D&C.

    But we were told to laugh at and distrust the comments TB made about WW's departure and his level of control over the offense because it was a "loaded question" from the "general media".  It's easy to see how he thought it came from the "general media" because the ESPN story had a little line he missed.  That line showed that the question came from the D&C show.

    You. Can't. Make. It. Up.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.

     



    Same thing happened last week.  We were told to trust TB's "I prefer the shotgun" quote because it was given "unguarded" to  D&C.

     

    But we were told to laugh at and distrust the comments TB made about WW's departure and his level of control over the offense because it was a "loaded question" from the "general media".  It's easy to see how he thought it came from the "general media" because the ESPN story had a little line he missed.  That line showed that the question came from the D&C show.

    You. Can't. Make. It. Up.



    What do you mean you can't make it up?  Rusty makes stuff up all the time! 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     



    I try not to think about it, really.

     

    It IS nerve wracking though ... really ... outside of two special teams players (Edelman and Slater) NE has no one(!!!) at WR who has ever actually caught a professional pass from Tom Brady. 

    Nevermind the fact that two of the guys they are hoping to be contributors (one MAJOR another minor) in Amendola and Edelman, aren't exactly known for being the "iron horse" at WR, and have injury bug concerns.

    With the influx of young talent there is some reason to be exited ... but this WR corps is also a few injuries, busts, bad matches, slow development cycles away from being a total and unmitigated nightmare this season. 

    That doesn't even MENTION the fact that neither of your star TEs are known for being stalwarts of health either. Sheesh.

    Think about it! Or don't, lol!

     

     



    Was it "nervewracking" 2003 with an aging Troy Brown and David Patten as lead WRs in camp, Fauria (never caught a pass from Brady) and Deion Branch in camp as a rookie (never caught a pass from Tom Brady)?

     

    Do some of you even read the crap you write?


    It's like you're using a pre-emptive strike with your agenda in here, so when January rolls around, and this team is a 13-3 team,  a 1 or 2 seed and Brady has 35 TDs and 9 INTs, the offense leads the NFL in stats, Ridley has 1200 yards, Bolden 500 yards, etc, if Brady chokes it down again, he's covered.

    That's kind of the vibe you types like to give off in here.

    Frankly, some fans are sick and tired of watching the 2007 offense being chased down by Brady, Welker, Branch, etc, as they lack execution and then somehow escape any criticism from the media.

    This team is LOADED. LOADED with talent on offense. LOADED.

    All we've heard about is how Brady doesn't have any weapons.   You're running out of excuses.

    2007 destroyed some of our fans ability to understand the game off football, especially on offense. We don't need 2 HOF WRs and then 3 or 4 other average targets for Brady. We need 4 quality options with varying skill sets who can routes from the X, Y and Z, without physical limitations like Moss and Welker.  Don't look now, but Hernandez is essentially a WR, where you can line him up at the X, Y or Z and not really miss a beat.  

    Moss ran like 4 routes and drew doubles due to his freakish range and speed.  But, he couldn't or wasn't asked to do much else because he didn't need to do anything else.  We've learned those limitations have come back to bite that style offense.

    Welker may have been moved to the Z position at times, but he wasn't effective and was nothing more than an obvious decoy.

    Not good enough.

    Back under center, run the ball, spread it around. It's called a West Coast offense. We used to see our QB master it, but now he only feels comfortable in the shotgun spread. As mentioned, that's about to change. Oh, yes it is. And, I don't care whose name is on the back of those jerseys.

    BB has the names off the jerseys and helmets for a reason. Wake up, kids.

     

     

     



    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ....

     

     



    Absolutely false.  It's a hybrid of a West Coast with that traditional Weis or traditional Perkins/Erhardt style.  Absolute hubrid. Without question. Getting the ball out quickly, etc. Absolutely. The roots of Weis's plays are buried in the Perkins plays, sure, but it's expanded under Weis into pulling from a West Coast hybrid here.

     

    Yes.

    You're telling me Ernie Zampese and Bledsoe here, while rooted in that Perkins/Erhardt style is the same thing Weis was running with Brady's skills here in 2003 and 2004? LOL!

    Not even close!  Not even close.

    The problems in recent years is the excessive use of the shotgun and too far removed from the traditional base.

    It's comical to me you don't get this and think Brady is running our offense the same as a Perkins, Erhardt or an Erinie Zampese did here with Bledsoe.

    lmao

     

     



    No. It's not a hybrid. Not at all. You are wrong. 

    In EP offense you use one kind of nomenclature for plays, one kind of terminology, one kind of route system. 

    In West Coast you use another entirely different set of all of these. 

    1.) One is incredibly complex in terminology, the other is streamlined in terminology.

    2.) One has very simple route system matched to the play another uses complex route concepts matched to packages and adjustments.

     

    3.) One uses numbers and receiver spots and "tags" to generate a meaning for a play.

    The other uses single word terminology, with relativelty few tags. 

    4.) One uses plays that are  WR driven, the other uses plays that driven from a QBs perspective.

    The Zampese offense is almost identical in the "concepts" they ran to what NE has run here as well, both of them falling under the more modern "Air Erhardt" iteration of the system. The use of ball control passing is something NE has done, and Erhardt had done, for decade, since the late 1980s. It's nothing new at all. 

    In that sense.... every single offense in the NFL is a "hybrid" of the West Coast offense because since it arrived in the NFL every single offense, with exception of a few gimmick offenses, has employed the type of ball control passing, passing to set up running lanes, etcetera, that Bill Walsh used .... but that's why West Coast was so revolutionary .... it literally changed the way the NFL game was played. But adapting to modern NFL concepts is something Erhardt himself was already doing in the late 1980s and early 1990s ... by the time any of these people you mention arrived here in NE, ball control passing and Erhardt Perkins were already associated together. Next thing people are going to be telling me that anyone who scripts plays the way Walsh did are running a hybrid. 

    Bledsoe threw the ball 500-600 times pitching it as ball control passes to Glenn and Coates the same way Brady throws the ball 500-600 times to his slots and TEs. 

    Brady put 100 balls in Browns hands in 2001 and 2002, and 100 between Branch/Brown from 2003, 2005 and 2006, and has put 100 balls into Welker's hands from 2007-2012.

    The shifts are shifts in peripheral personnel, but the core: one RB and ball control passing has been the same. There are wrinkles added and subtracted each season to give the offense nuance and variety year to year, but this team has been driven by the slot since BB arrived ... it's not a hyrbid it's just Air Erhardt.

    What you are saying is basically anathema ... this team, the one you claim to love so much is literally synonymous with this offensive system, it is NE's legacy and the pedigree of everything that has been done here. 

    At no point was it a hybrid with a West Coast offense at all. They've literally used the same EP terminology and basic concepts for decades the way EP developed them, and have never employed anyone that uses a West Coast playbook or West Coast terminology ever.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ...

     



    Rusty makes garbage up then uses the "because I said so" argument as the reason why.  I think he types too fast for his brain and paints himself into corners.  Patriots don't use anything like the West Coast offense.

     



    That's about the long and short of it .... 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ...

     



    Rusty makes garbage up then uses the "because I said so" argument as the reason why.  I think he types too fast for his brain and paints himself into corners.  Patriots don't use anything like the West Coast offense.

     

     



    Excuse me?

     

    Are you seriously wanting to look dumb on this, too?  I have to laugh at you making dumb decisions sometimes here, because you aren't dumb.

    NE uses a hybrid and uses West Coast concepts.  Yes.   I feel like I am talking to wannabe fans here.  PLease learn and read.

    Oh my.



    LOL. Google any team and west coast offense and you'll get hit ... ball control passing? NE implemented it? OMG!?!?!?!

    Welcome to the NFL post 1990 dude.  

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.



    Ditto, ditto, ditto. 

    Ball control passing is something everyone does in the NFL. Since the 1980s ... you literally can't win without it. 

     
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