The competition at the wide receiver position

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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    No. It's not a hybrid. Not at all. You are wrong. 

    In EP offense you use one kind of nomenclature for plays, one kind of terminology, one kind of route system. 

    In West Coast you use another entirely different set of all of these. 

    1.) One is incredibly complex in terminology, the other is streamlined in terminology.

    2.) One has very simple route system matched to the play another uses complex route concepts matched to packages and adjustments.

    3.) One uses numbers and receiver spots and "tags" to generate a meaning for a play.

    The other uses single word terminology, with relativelty few tags. 

    4.) One uses plays that are  WR driven, the other uses plays that driven from a QBs perspective.

    The Zampese offense is almost identical in the "concepts" they ran to what NE has run here as well, both of them falling under the more modern "Air Erhardt" iteration of the system. The use of ball control passing is something NE has done, and Erhardt had done, for decade, since the late 1980s. It's nothing new at all. 

    In that sense.... every single offense in the NFL is a "hybrid" of the West Coast offense because since it arrived in the NFL every single offense, with exception of a few gimmick offenses, has employed the type of ball control passing, passing to set up running lanes, etcetera, that Bill Walsh used .... but that's why West Coast was so revolutionary .... it literally changed the way the NFL game was played. But adapting to modern NFL concepts is something Erhardt himself was already doing in the late 1980s and early 1990s ... by the time any of these people you mention arrived here in NE, ball control passing and Erhardt Perkins were already associated together. Next thing people are going to be telling me that anyone who scripts plays the way Walsh did are running a hybrid. 

    Bledsoe threw the ball 500-600 times pitching it as ball control passes to Glenn and Coates the same way Brady throws the ball 500-600 times to his slots and TEs. 

    Brady put 100 balls in Browns hands in 2001 and 2002, and 100 between Branch/Brown from 2003, 2005 and 2006, and has put 100 balls into Welker's hands from 2007-2012.

    The shifts are shifts in peripheral personnel, but the core: one RB and ball control passing has been the same. There are wrinkles added and subtracted each season to give the offense nuance and variety year to year, but this team has been driven by the slot since BB arrived ... it's not a hyrbid it's just Air Erhardt.

    What you are saying is basically anathema ... this team, the one you claim to love so much is literally synonymous with this offensive system, it is NE's legacy and the pedigree of everything that has been done here. 

    At no point was it a hybrid with a West Coast offense at all. They've literally used the same EP terminology and basic concepts for decades the way EP developed them, and have never employed anyone that uses a West Coast playbook or West Coast terminology ever.  



    Good summation...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     




    It's "nerve wracking" that we have Gronk, Ballard and Hern as the best TE group in the entire NFL, Amendola as a veteran  with Michael Jenkins as another proven vet, nice RBs here with experience and full camp together again, with literally 10 other WRs for 2 spots?

     

    This is "nerve wracking"?

    Our passing game has SUCKED in the postseason, so I am pretty sure what it was more "nerve wracking" is our older WRs in previous postseasons not playing very well with Tom Brady leading his preferred shotgun spread.

    THAT's what is "nerve wracking".  What's nerve wracking is when I get that pit in my stomach in the first half because we leave points on the board and never established a proper run game to draw in the LBs from the middle of the field, as we then continue to see our QB only look at the same two receiving options for 40+ times, as if it's a race to get to 40 passes in a lower scoring game.

    THAT is what is "nerve wracking" because I know it won't work.

    I am THRILLED to see a clear change in approach like this, forcing Brady to get his head back to straight, get back to basics and force him to develop a rapport with EVERYONE in camp, instead of throwing 5 yard passes to Wes Welker, Gronk and Hern all summer.

    Thank you, BB. Thank you.  Finally the plug has been pulled and we can move on from a failed, finesse shotgun spread base.

     

     



    You can arfgue with the entire BDC community on labeling the Pats offense, however you are as nutty as ever if you think this WR group is "loaded"...I can agree that Amendola is a very good WR. I dont think Jenkins makes the final cut. I also have little faith in rookie WR's in general. So you seem to be counting on Jones, Hawkins and Edelman to outperform their norm.

    I agree with you, on paper, the TE's look great. But, if Gronk is PUP'd, and Hern has his usual assortment of injuries, Ballard is not a strong enough TE to carry the load...

    Can you also point out other than the SB and AFCCCG when this offense left you with a pit in your stomache? Granted, the team has not played well offensively or defensively in those games, and has been outcoached in those games. But in the past 5 years, other than 2-5 games, when has this offense left you with a pit in your stomache over the course of over 80 games? 

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     




    It's "nerve wracking" that we have Gronk, Ballard and Hern as the best TE group in the entire NFL, Amendola as a veteran  with Michael Jenkins as another proven vet, nice RBs here with experience and full camp together again, with literally 10 other WRs for 2 spots?

     

    This is "nerve wracking"?

    Our passing game has SUCKED in the postseason, so I am pretty sure what it was more "nerve wracking" is our older WRs in previous postseasons not playing very well with Tom Brady leading his preferred shotgun spread.

    THAT's what is "nerve wracking".  What's nerve wracking is when I get that pit in my stomach in the first half because we leave points on the board and never established a proper run game to draw in the LBs from the middle of the field, as we then continue to see our QB only look at the same two receiving options for 40+ times, as if it's a race to get to 40 passes in a lower scoring game.

    THAT is what is "nerve wracking" because I know it won't work.

    I am THRILLED to see a clear change in approach like this, forcing Brady to get his head back to straight, get back to basics and force him to develop a rapport with EVERYONE in camp, instead of throwing 5 yard passes to Wes Welker, Gronk and Hern all summer.

    Thank you, BB. Thank you.  Finally the plug has been pulled and we can move on from a failed, finesse shotgun spread base.

     

     

     



    You can arfgue with the entire BDC community on labeling the Pats offense, however you are as nutty as ever if you think this WR group is "loaded"...I can agree that Amendola is a very good WR. I dont think Jenkins makes the final cut. I also have little faith in rookie WR's in general. So you seem to be counting on Jones, Hawkins and Edelman to outperform their norm.

     

    I agree with you, on paper, the TE's look great. But, if Gronk is PUP'd, and Hern has his usual assortment of injuries, Ballard is not a strong enough TE to carry the load...

    Can you also point out other than the SB and AFCCCG when this offense left you with a pit in your stomache? Granted, the team has not played well offensively or defensively in those games, and has been outcoached in those games. But in the past 5 years, other than 2-5 games, when has this offense left you with a pit in your stomache over the course of over 80 games? 

     



    They were not "outcoached" at all. The players lacked execution in key moments. It's not outcoached.  Please learn the game.  A Tyree catch off a helment or a Brady INT or Welker drop are not "outcoached" examples whatsoever. The media would have had to have RAVED about BB's defensive gameplan in SB 46 barring our superstars not letting the team down on offense. Raved.  13 points allowed is outcoached while waiting for our offense to simply get into FG range with a big footed kicker in a dome? Really? You have quite the terminology there, RKrap.

     

    Talib and Jones not able to play in January is "outcoached"?  Hmm. Another loose definition from you.  

    Finally, I only referenced Michael Jenkins because he's a veteran with experience who can get up to speed quickly as can Donald Jones, the latter a high football IQ which is what the receivers here have been missing (Jackson, Tate, Price, etc). This isn't about who makes the roster.

    It's about understanding that BB has had it with Brady playing favorites and then me needing to slap ZBellino and some others on the idea that this offense has somehow never used West Coast concepts this whole time. lmao

    Of course they have. It is absolutely an ever evolving scheme tapping into all passing offense, actually.  Go search on You Tube with the Vrabel TD drive in SB 39. West Coast offense at its finest. Brady under center, various formations, run game used with Brady under Center, just like some guy named MOntana and the ball is spread around.

    Brady is infamous for getting the ball out and spreading it around, not trying to get balls well downfield like a Coryell offense.  

    Our offense was always about getting the ball out quick, spreading it around, and using the run game but not alwasy in the shotgun.  Since 2007, it's been more about a shotgun spread, which is also nowhere near a Perkins/Earhardt offense either.  Somehow, someway the ZBellinos, and others expect a 100% perfect O Line for 45 pass attempts and Brady in a shotgun patting the ball for 6 seconds until someone breaks open, but we don't need to and nor have we successfully run West Coast style plays here. It's only HOW we won 2 SBs in 2003 and 2004 for crying out out loud. Some call it dink and dunk. I call it a variation of a West COast base.  Regardless, those clowns claim we've never run a West Coast play from that playbook. bawhwahaha

    If Gronk is PUPed, we're still absolutely loaded with two good looking rookie WRs with different skill sets and high IQs, Donald Jones (if he makes it), Edelman (if he makes it), Amendola, etc.  That is a lot of "if he makes it" types, huh?  Yep. Sure is.  Love it. Absolutely love it.  No more retreads with a name on the jersey to keep Brady coddled.


    Competition is the firecest  I've ever seen. We used to pencil in starters at this spot year after year after year since 2007, and now we can't do that. THAT is a great thing, not a bad thing.

     

     

     

     


     

     

    With all due respect (I use that term lightly) the only reason we arent "penciling" in starters because either A.) they S*ck or B.) they are unproven, or C.) Injury prone. Its NOT because we have so much talent that we dont know where to play them. That would be a good problem. As it stands now, Brady will have to work harder than he ever has to integrate so many new options in ONE year, esp considering the Youth part of it. Brady didnt like counting on rookies when he was  28, never mind now at pushing 40! YOU just want to make it seem like Brady has no excuse to fail when in reality this may be his most challenging offseason considering everything,. but leave it you to sneak in your Brady Jabs....smh. Loaded?!??!   Lol, ,see me in October and IF they pan out, who is gonna get credit?!!??!  BB??  lol

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ...

     



    Rusty makes garbage up then uses the "because I said so" argument as the reason why.  I think he types too fast for his brain and paints himself into corners.  Patriots don't use anything like the West Coast offense.

     

     



    Excuse me?

     

    Are you seriously wanting to look dumb on this, too?  I have to laugh at you making dumb decisions sometimes here, because you aren't dumb.

    NE uses a hybrid and uses West Coast concepts.  Yes.   I feel like I am talking to wannabe fans here.  PLease learn and read.

    Oh my.

     



    LOL. Google any team and west coast offense and you'll get hit ... ball control passing? NE implemented it? OMG!?!?!?!

     

    Welcome to the NFL post 1990 dude.  

     




     

    Where did I say NE "implemented" it, Mr. Sneaky? Hmmm?  Forget about it, Mr. Sneaky. You got caught.  I never said NE "implemented" the West Coast. I am well aware of how that offense started and where it started.  I am also well aware of where our base offense comes from, but it's downright funny to I am sure most reading this that somehow, some way we've never borrowed from the West Coast. LOL

    And for this other dumb statement about us needing to "employ" someone who came from Walsh's West Coast system for it to be proven we've run West Coast plays here is preposterous. We simply saw BB and Weis create plays in that style to help Brady within his skill set.

    1. Getting the ball out faster.

    2. Passing first, vs. just running to set up a pass.

    3. Using smaller RBs at times to catch out of the backfield.

    All concepts of the West Coast. Do you know who Kevin Faulk is? He's the guy who helped us win 3 SBs and kind of looked like what Roger Craig looked like in the 1980s for SF. Yep, that's Kevin Faulk. That wasn't a mirage. That guy really existed and was the RB we used when we wanted to run West Coast kind of plays.  

    lol

    Holy mackerel. It's funny to me for a guy who tries to pose as so smart, so educated, he actually believes we've never seen a hybrid offense here, it's somehow only been strictly the Earhardt/PErkins system. Yep. BB likes to stay the same all the time. 




    So, we went from TB running and mastering the WC offense - to a hybrid - to a sprinkling of plays to keep from being stagnant.  LOL 

    You really should go back and repeat the second grade where DODGE BALL is the game of choice.

    Also that pit in your stomach is most likely from being soooo F O S, that it has to hurt.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    Kevin Faulk wasn't an example of "west coast" player, the third down change of pace back has been employed in our system since Bill Walsh was actually coaching.  Whether it was Joe Morris, Dave Meggett or Kevin Faulk this has been a staple of our offensive system since its inception.  You really love to dig yourself in deeper and deeper huh...

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    Funny I was responding to a Rusty post that was deleted before I could finish... typical.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    Next he'll be saying he meant that when the Pats played away games in SD or OAK they were running a West Coast offense.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     




    It's "nerve wracking" that we have Gronk, Ballard and Hern as the best TE group in the entire NFL, Amendola as a veteran  with Michael Jenkins as another proven vet, nice RBs here with experience and full camp together again, with literally 10 other WRs for 2 spots?

     

    This is "nerve wracking"?

    Our passing game has SUCKED in the postseason, so I am pretty sure what it was more "nerve wracking" is our older WRs in previous postseasons not playing very well with Tom Brady leading his preferred shotgun spread.

    THAT's what is "nerve wracking".  What's nerve wracking is when I get that pit in my stomach in the first half because we leave points on the board and never established a proper run game to draw in the LBs from the middle of the field, as we then continue to see our QB only look at the same two receiving options for 40+ times, as if it's a race to get to 40 passes in a lower scoring game.

    THAT is what is "nerve wracking" because I know it won't work.

    I am THRILLED to see a clear change in approach like this, forcing Brady to get his head back to straight, get back to basics and force him to develop a rapport with EVERYONE in camp, instead of throwing 5 yard passes to Wes Welker, Gronk and Hern all summer.

    Thank you, BB. Thank you.  Finally the plug has been pulled and we can move on from a failed, finesse shotgun spread base.

     

     

     



    You can arfgue with the entire BDC community on labeling the Pats offense, however you are as nutty as ever if you think this WR group is "loaded"...I can agree that Amendola is a very good WR. I dont think Jenkins makes the final cut. I also have little faith in rookie WR's in general. So you seem to be counting on Jones, Hawkins and Edelman to outperform their norm.

     

    I agree with you, on paper, the TE's look great. But, if Gronk is PUP'd, and Hern has his usual assortment of injuries, Ballard is not a strong enough TE to carry the load...

    Can you also point out other than the SB and AFCCCG when this offense left you with a pit in your stomache? Granted, the team has not played well offensively or defensively in those games, and has been outcoached in those games. But in the past 5 years, other than 2-5 games, when has this offense left you with a pit in your stomache over the course of over 80 games? 

     



    They were not "outcoached" at all. The players lacked execution in key moments. It's not outcoached.  Please learn the game.  A Tyree catch off a helment or a Brady INT or Welker drop are not "outcoached" examples whatsoever. The media would have had to have RAVED about BB's defensive gameplan in SB 46 barring our superstars not letting the team down on offense. Raved.  13 points allowed is outcoached while waiting for our offense to simply get into FG range with a big footed kicker in a dome? Really? You have quite the terminology there, RKrap.

     

    Talib and Jones not able to play in January is "outcoached"?  Hmm. Another loose definition from you.  

    Finally, I only referenced Michael Jenkins because he's a veteran with experience who can get up to speed quickly as can Donald Jones, the latter a high football IQ which is what the receivers here have been missing (Jackson, Tate, Price, etc). This isn't about who makes the roster.

    It's about understanding that BB has had it with Brady playing favorites and then me needing to slap ZBellino and some others on the idea that this offense has somehow never used West Coast concepts this whole time. lmao

    Of course they have. It is absolutely an ever evolving scheme tapping into all passing offense, actually.  Go search on You Tube with the Vrabel TD drive in SB 39. West Coast offense at its finest. Brady under center, various formations, run game used with Brady under Center, just like some guy named MOntana and the ball is spread around.

    Brady is infamous for getting the ball out and spreading it around, not trying to get balls well downfield like a Coryell offense.  

    Our offense was always about getting the ball out quick, spreading it around, and using the run game but not alwasy in the shotgun.  Since 2007, it's been more about a shotgun spread, which is also nowhere near a Perkins/Earhardt offense either.  Somehow, someway the ZBellinos, and others expect a 100% perfect O Line for 45 pass attempts and Brady in a shotgun patting the ball for 6 seconds until someone breaks open, but we don't need to and nor have we successfully run West Coast style plays here. It's only HOW we won 2 SBs in 2003 and 2004 for crying out out loud. Some call it dink and dunk. I call it a variation of a West COast base.  Regardless, those clowns claim we've never run a West Coast play from that playbook. bawhwahaha

    If Gronk is PUPed, we're still absolutely loaded with two good looking rookie WRs with different skill sets and high IQs, Donald Jones (if he makes it), Edelman (if he makes it), Amendola, etc.  That is a lot of "if he makes it" types, huh?  Yep. Sure is.  Love it. Absolutely love it.  No more retreads with a name on the jersey to keep Brady coddled.


    Competition is the firecest  I've ever seen. We used to pencil in starters at this spot year after year after year since 2007, and now we can't do that. THAT is a great thing, not a bad thing.

     

     

     

     


     

     

    With all due respect (I use that term lightly) the only reason we arent "penciling" in starters because either A.) they S*ck or B.) they are unproven, or C.) Injury prone. Its NOT because we have so much talent that we dont know where to play them. That would be a good problem. As it stands now, Brady will have to work harder than he ever has to integrate so many new options in ONE year, esp considering the Youth part of it. Brady didnt like counting on rookies when he was  28, never mind now at pushing 40! YOU just want to make it seem like Brady has no excuse to fail when in reality this may be his most challenging offseason considering everything,. but leave it you to sneak in your Brady Jabs....smh. Loaded?!??!   Lol, ,see me in October and IF they pan out, who is gonna get credit?!!??!  BB??  lol



    isnt it funny that anyone could look at a team void of starters at a key position as a good thing?

    I do like the potential of the young guys, but to depend on them to be key contributors is dangerous. Hawkins, Jones, Jenkins...lets take a wait and see...

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     



    I try not to think about it, really.

     

    It IS nerve wracking though ... really ... outside of two special teams players (Edelman and Slater) NE has no one(!!!) at WR who has ever actually caught a professional pass from Tom Brady. 

    Nevermind the fact that two of the guys they are hoping to be contributors (one MAJOR another minor) in Amendola and Edelman, aren't exactly known for being the "iron horse" at WR, and have injury bug concerns.

    With the influx of young talent there is some reason to be exited ... but this WR corps is also a few injuries, busts, bad matches, slow development cycles away from being a total and unmitigated nightmare this season. 

    That doesn't even MENTION the fact that neither of your star TEs are known for being stalwarts of health either. Sheesh.

    Think about it! Or don't, lol!

     

     



    Was it "nervewracking" 2003 with an aging Troy Brown and David Patten as lead WRs in camp, Fauria (never caught a pass from Brady) and Deion Branch in camp as a rookie (never caught a pass from Tom Brady)?

     

    Do some of you even read the crap you write?


    It's like you're using a pre-emptive strike with your agenda in here, so when January rolls around, and this team is a 13-3 team,  a 1 or 2 seed and Brady has 35 TDs and 9 INTs, the offense leads the NFL in stats, Ridley has 1200 yards, Bolden 500 yards, etc, if Brady chokes it down again, he's covered.

    That's kind of the vibe you types like to give off in here.

    Frankly, some fans are sick and tired of watching the 2007 offense being chased down by Brady, Welker, Branch, etc, as they lack execution and then somehow escape any criticism from the media.

    This team is LOADED. LOADED with talent on offense. LOADED.

    All we've heard about is how Brady doesn't have any weapons.   You're running out of excuses.

    2007 destroyed some of our fans ability to understand the game off football, especially on offense. We don't need 2 HOF WRs and then 3 or 4 other average targets for Brady. We need 4 quality options with varying skill sets who can routes from the X, Y and Z, without physical limitations like Moss and Welker.  Don't look now, but Hernandez is essentially a WR, where you can line him up at the X, Y or Z and not really miss a beat.  

    Moss ran like 4 routes and drew doubles due to his freakish range and speed.  But, he couldn't or wasn't asked to do much else because he didn't need to do anything else.  We've learned those limitations have come back to bite that style offense.

    Welker may have been moved to the Z position at times, but he wasn't effective and was nothing more than an obvious decoy.

    Not good enough.

    Back under center, run the ball, spread it around. It's called a West Coast offense. We used to see our QB master it, but now he only feels comfortable in the shotgun spread. As mentioned, that's about to change. Oh, yes it is. And, I don't care whose name is on the back of those jerseys.

    BB has the names off the jerseys and helmets for a reason. Wake up, kids.

     

     

     

    You are correct when you say that BB has the names off the Jerseys for a reason, he doesn't want name recognition too play into any part of the learning process,every player on his eventual roster will be required to know his job. If you don't know the plays the number on your pants leg will be noted,this maybe why he brought in all the Rutgers players, as Coach Schiano required knowledge of the entire playbook and intense film study as a daily regimine at Rutgers. They have three white SWR's Amendola,Edelman and TJ Moe, and all three are roughly the same size and have about the same agility levels, the same can be said for the taller receivers as Dobson,Harrison and Jenkins are all roughly the same size and speed level, and the TE's are all about the same size also, so when they are running routes on a called play BB and Chad O'Shea can see who winds up in the right place. This also includes their knowledge of blocking schemes by the entire team!!! For those of you who think this offense is going to be less effective than in the past you are incorrect. Will they run the WCO a little more and allow the running game to take more of the load off TB? That would be a wise choice considering TB's age and also the talent level in the backfield and the obvious effect it has on the performance of the O-line as there is joy in mudville when just plowing forward and using your size to take out the unsuspecting D-line. Lets just face it the last few years when the Patriots ran the ball effectively TB had better passing perfomance ratings. This might be the year that the Patriots finally get back to the super bowl and absolutely annihilate their NFC opponent. They are loaded at every position both offensively and Defensively and even on Special teams! One thing i would really like to see is TB taking a seat when the team is up late in games so that whoever is 2nd team QB he is getting valuable reps under center in actual game situations. I was a boy scout and nothing prepares you better than the real situations.


     

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to APpats21's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    Yes, I realize this is a fan site, but clearly MANY fans know that BB doesn't pigeonhole himself in using one base style of offense. I can keep looking for anyalysis from other sources because they'e just so easy to find because it's you know, sort of well known?!! lmao

    "Since Belichick has become head coach they have featured a pass first west coast offense, a run to set-up the pass offense, a spread attack and even an “Air-Raid” style offense in the vain of the great Mike Leach offenses of Texas Tech. With a quarterback as smart as Tom Brady, it has rarely mattered what offense they run. It’s simply a matter of running the right offense that play to the strengths of the pieces around Brady. For example, when the Patriots had Corey Dillon, they leaned heavily on him for 1,600 yards rushing and used his play to open up the offense for Tom Brady’s passing game."

    http://www.bostonsbettah.com/?p=3137

     

     




    HAHAHAHAHAHA youre using this as a source to back it up? Guess who writes it? "Millenial that probably still lives in mommy and daddy's basement". Good ole Chris Bentivegna from Southborough, MA. Usually youll say that he knows nothing and is arrogant for think hes smarter than BB but since it fits your agenda you use it and declare it right. He graduated high school in 2009. Funny how that works huh Rusty?

     

    (Chris Bentivegna)




    WOW!  Just WOW!   I think we need to back off and give him time to request that his account get deleted.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

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    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ...

     



    Rusty makes garbage up then uses the "because I said so" argument as the reason why.  I think he types too fast for his brain and paints himself into corners.  Patriots don't use anything like the West Coast offense.

     

     



    Excuse me?

     

    Are you seriously wanting to look dumb on this, too?  I have to laugh at you making dumb decisions sometimes here, because you aren't dumb.

    NE uses a hybrid and uses West Coast concepts.  Yes.   I feel like I am talking to wannabe fans here.  PLease learn and read.

    Oh my.

     



    LOL. Google any team and west coast offense and you'll get hit ... ball control passing? NE implemented it? OMG!?!?!?!

     

    Welcome to the NFL post 1990 dude.  

     




     

    Where did I say NE "implemented" it, Mr. Sneaky? Hmmm?  Forget about it, Mr. Sneaky. You got caught.  I never said NE "implemented" the West Coast. I am well aware of how that offense started and where it started.  I am also well aware of where our base offense comes from, but it's downright funny to I am sure most reading this that somehow, some way we've never borrowed from the West Coast. LOL

    And for this other dumb statement about us needing to "employ" someone who came from Walsh's West Coast system for it to be proven we've run West Coast plays here is preposterous. We simply saw BB and Weis create plays in that style to help Brady within his skill set.

    1. Getting the ball out faster.

    2. Passing first, vs. just running to set up a pass.

    3. Using smaller RBs at times to catch out of the backfield.

    All concepts of the West Coast. Do you know who Kevin Faulk is? He's the guy who helped us win 3 SBs and kind of looked like what Roger Craig looked like in the 1980s for SF. Yep, that's Kevin Faulk. That wasn't a mirage. That guy really existed and was the RB we used when we wanted to run West Coast kind of plays.  

    lol

    Holy mackerel. It's funny to me for a guy who tries to pose as so smart, so educated, he actually believes we've never seen a hybrid offense here, it's somehow only been strictly the Earhardt/PErkins system. Yep. BB likes to stay the same all the time. 

     




    So, we went from TB running and mastering the WC offense - to a hybrid - to a sprinkling of plays to keep from being stagnant.  LOL 

     

    You really should go back and repeat the second grade where DODGE BALL is the game of choice.

    Also that pit in your stomach is most likely from being soooo F O S, that it has to hurt.



    OK, Rusty. David Megget wasn't catching 40-50 balls out of the backfield in 1996 when the actual OC for NE was (wait for it) Ray Perkins. Just like he wasn't catching 40-50 out of the backfield under Ron Erhardt in NY in the early 1990s. NFL statisticians must have imagined that.

    Kevin Faulk was not brought in to replicate Roger Craig, a full time back, he was adapted to the 3rd down back role Meggett filled. 

    Here is what you said ... verbatim ... quoted:

    Back under center, run the ball, spread it around. It's called a West Coast offense. We used to see our QB master it, but now he only feels comfortable in the shotgun spread. 

    I mean, I don't even know where to start with this, but referring to this most recent quote from you:

    We simply saw BB and Weis create plays in that style to help Brady within his skill set.

    1. Getting the ball out faster.

    2. Passing first, vs. just running to set up a pass.

    3. Using smaller RBs at times to catch out of the backfield.

    All concepts of the West Coast.


    So the West Coast is both a "run first" offense built around "spreading it around" (no one would ever support these statements, one being patently false the other being insubstantial to the system in that you can "spread it around" in any offensive system.

    Then is becomes about "getting the ball out faster," passing first, using smaller RBs .... two of which are things you basically tell everyone here are terrible on a day to day basis ... considering NE needs to "set up the PA pass" and should "not sub for their lead back."

    I am actually confused because the offense you were saying NE needs to move back toward (the West Coast as you said) now a while into this thread sounds an awful lot like the offense you have said they are running now and should move away from. 

    1.) There is no conceptual difference in how NE has used Faulk from any other third down back ... not conceptually ... and it is also no different from how they used Woodhead for that matter.  NE's run a third down back since they've run EP, the same way the Giants rode one in the 80s and 90s, etc. Faulk is NOT like Roger Craig ... who was an every down back, who also caught a lot of balls. Literally the weakest thing I've read here in years. 

    2.) EP offenses have been "passing first" for years when they've needed too. Again ... it's called Air Erhardt. Erhardt was rather prolix about it in the early 1990s discussing players like Jerry Rice, the Giant's personnel deficiencies and the type of personnel he wanted to "open up the offensive" system.

    3.) Drew Bledsoe threw 600 passes three times under Ray Perkins, and that team basically lived off of short timing routes to Glenn, Meggett and Coates as one of its ball control concepts.

    I never said NE didn't run short passes ... so don't say I did. Since the beginning I've been pointing out that it's not evidence that they use the West Coast offense. In fact, like I said ... second post in .... EVERYONE since 1990 has used ball control passing... it's the modern NFL, a.k.a., something I've called "post-West-Coast" NFL about a million times when people complain that NE "needs to establish the run."

    HERE are the facts:

    NE never ran a West Coast offense, which is what you said at the beginning of the thread. 

    NE never ran a hybrid West Coast offense, what you said halfway through the thread. 

    NE like every team has implemented concepts broadly sketched out by Bill Walsh (like ball control passing and pasing to set set up running lanes) but they've done so since Ray Perkins was here, LONG before Weiss arrived, and in fact (contrary to your suggestion) continued to do so LAST season and the season before that where we saw Wes Welker gulp down 240 passes and some gamut of Woodhead/Faulk/Vereen nab about 60 passes per season.

    Nothing structurally has changed. NE wasn't a "hybrid" then, they aren't a "hybrid" now. They did't outright run the West Coast then, and thus aren't "not runnning it" now.

    They are running the Erhardt-Perkins offense: and they do pass first often, but only because Erhardt himself was making those changes in the 1990s to acclimate to the new rules and keep up with the more modern West Coast system that was so effective within those new rules.

    It was kind of novel in for Ray Perkins1996 (though the NYG and PIT had been "passing first" to some degree for about half a decade before that under Erhardt) .... it was nothing new in 2001, and they certainly haven't strayed from it in recent years as O'Brien and McDaniel's both run the "Air Erhardt" system they learned from Charlie Weis.    

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to Quagmire3's comment:

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

    They will have old reliable on stand by= Deion Branch




    +1 Still love Deion.

     



    I still love him too but he does not have enough left ability wise to be a playmaker in a big game. One play maybe is the D breaks down but I dont think he has "game" in him anymore. It happens... Players get old.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to APpats21's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    Yes, I realize this is a fan site, but clearly MANY fans know that BB doesn't pigeonhole himself in using one base style of offense. I can keep looking for anyalysis from other sources because they'e just so easy to find because it's you know, sort of well known?!! lmao

    "Since Belichick has become head coach they have featured a pass first west coast offense, a run to set-up the pass offense, a spread attack and even an “Air-Raid” style offense in the vain of the great Mike Leach offenses of Texas Tech. With a quarterback as smart as Tom Brady, it has rarely mattered what offense they run. It’s simply a matter of running the right offense that play to the strengths of the pieces around Brady. For example, when the Patriots had Corey Dillon, they leaned heavily on him for 1,600 yards rushing and used his play to open up the offense for Tom Brady’s passing game."

    http://www.bostonsbettah.com/?p=3137

     

     




    HAHAHAHAHAHA youre using this as a source to back it up? Guess who writes it? "Millenial that probably still lives in mommy and daddy's basement". Good ole Chris Bentivegna from Southborough, MA. Usually youll say that he knows nothing and is arrogant for think hes smarter than BB but since it fits your agenda you use it and declare it right. He graduated high school in 2009. Funny how that works huh Rusty?

     

    (Chris Bentivegna)



    Wow. Didn't catch that. Haha. 

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to APpats21's comment:

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Rusty got banned again! Lets see which account he comes back under.




    Commie gone at the same time.  Two guys at opposite ends of the spectrum.  One spouts incoherent gibberish and the other breaks the delusion meter.

     
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