The defense going forward

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    The defense going forward

    I've got to say I've been very critical if the players we've brought in over the last five years, but I do think Belichick found real good football players in Collins and Jones. I think these two are our new cornerstones for the future. Now I will say Jones disappeared in both those playoff games, but his production up until the month of December was off the charts. Collins may of turned in two playoff performances like I haven't seen from a defender around here in ten years...even in the loss he was way more than solid.

    I think the real question is what do we do with Wilfork and Kelly? Because in my opinion these guys either won't be here next year or will be rotational players. I think the rotation option is best for both this team and those players going forward. I think it must be a priority to sign and or draft a premier talent at the defensive tackle position. I said this last year too (because I thought Vince was being used too much) and because I just didn't think we had enough on is team. I'd love to see both return as veteran presences and to fill in as the new guys learn the system.

    As for Talib, I wouldn't sign him unless it was for a very very outrageously friendly team deal. I have no faith that he will do anything but battle hip injuries again next year, or go down permanently in the playoffs. In my opinion I'd go for a more reliable option - I just don't think we need more players we can't rely on and he's one of those guys.

    I think this defense has not seen a player like Collins on it ever before - I think he is that good - the sky is the limit for him...there are very few guys that are that explosive that can actually do all the things he can do. Von Miller may be a little faster, but he can't do half of what Collins can do...and I mention Von because they both have the same measurables, and I can imagine Collins rushing like that in the future if needed...but I can never imagine Von dropping into coverage or making tackles in space.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: The defense going forward


    This defense does certainly need depth at DT. Kelly will be back, his $ isnt bad at all. VW will likely be cut and resign a vet minimum with incentives. So then we woul be looking at VW, Kelly, Siliga, Chris Jones and I guess Armstead? I dont wanna put faith in him. so if we are to draft a DT Louis Nix, RaShede Hageman are two good 1st round options I like. 2nd round DaQuan Jones and round 3 an Ego Ferguson. all are 310 and over.

    Randy Starks, Paul Soliai, Linval Joseph, and BJ Raji are all free agents who could be signed. Johnathon Babinuex is 32 and a FA probably someone BB will like for real cheap at that age.

     

    As for the LBs, best in the league. when august comes around, Collins Mayo and Hightower will be among the leagues best LB group out there. no doubt.

     

    I feel the same about Talib. maybe not too much money but when you sit back and look at it, if we let Talib walk and don't wanna spend that $ on a good CB we will be stuck going to the draft for one. and that's hit and miss. if Talib walks and we don't replace him with any immediate starter Dennard and Ryan will be our outside corners then. I think we need Talib back at any reasonable cost unless we plan on making a run at Altteraun Verner, Vontae Davis, D Rodgers-Crom., Captain Munnerlyn, Sam Shields or Walter Thurmond. None of whom I'd consider a #1 CB on this team. all are smaller guys except for DRC snd we need some form of height at CB.

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    Agree with your thoughts.  I hope we draft a talented DT.  VW and/or Kelly might or might not return to full strength.  Can't count on either of them.  Chris Jones and Vellano are good, hard working players, but not really special.  I do like what Siliga showed, but we clearly need more talent at this position.  I'll believe it when I see it with Armstead.  I also love our LB corp, but another young, athletic guy who can cover and blitz effectively would certainly be a welcome addition.  I think our secondary is in decent shape, too.  I would really try to make a deal work with Talib.  You are correct in thinking that it would need to be pretty team friendly due to his injury history, but I think that is possible.  I love mccourty and Harmon's potential, but another safety who can cover is needed.  All in all, I like our defense moving forward.  We have good players, just need to shore up the D line and keep adding talent.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    I'm surprised you didn't add Ryan to the list.  VW will not play for league minimum.  There may be adjustments to his salary but nothing like a minimum.  However, an Achilles Tendon for a man his size may take a while to heal fully.  I voiced my opinion about coming into the season -short at DT.  So I'm on board with DT for the draft.  

    The Pats are pretty well set at LB.  Spikes is gone.  I'll miss his hits on RBs.  Man, they look punishing.

    Dennard, Ryan and Talib should be the corners.  Talib signed a friendly contract before and I don't see any reason for that to change until you find a replacement for him.  I don't see any hurry there.  Gotta get a safety.  Gregory is killing me.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to garytx's comment:

    I'm surprised you didn't add Ryan to the list.  VW will not play for league minimum.  There may be adjustments to his salary but nothing like a minimum.  However, an Achilles Tendon for a man his size may take a while to heal fully.  I voiced my opinion about coming into the season -short at DT.  So I'm on board with DT for the draft.  

    The Pats are pretty well set at LB.  Spikes is gone.  I'll miss his hits on RBs.  Man, they look punishing.

    Dennard, Ryan and Talib should be the corners.  Talib signed a friendly contract before and I don't see any reason for that to change until you find a replacement for him.  I don't see any hurry there.  Gotta get a safety.  Gregory is killing me.



    I don't see Wilfork playing for the minimum with incentives either, truth is I don't know how he'll handle a pay cut, he certainly doesn't owe the Patriots anything. I'd like to see him back, I don't think this guy is done by any stretch.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:


    This defense does certainly need depth at DT. Kelly will be back, his $ isnt bad at all. VW will likely be cut and resign a vet minimum with incentives. So then we woul be looking at VW, Kelly, Siliga, Chris Jones and I guess Armstead? I dont wanna put faith in him. so if we are to draft a DT Louis Nix, RaShede Hageman are two good 1st round options I like. 2nd round DaQuan Jones and round 3 an Ego Ferguson. all are 310 and over.

    Randy Starks, Paul Soliai, Linval Joseph, and BJ Raji are all free agents who could be signed. Johnathon Babinuex is 32 and a FA probably someone BB will like for real cheap at that age.

     

    As for the LBs, best in the league. when august comes around, Collins Mayo and Hightower will be among the leagues best LB group out there. no doubt.

     

    I feel the same about Talib. maybe not too much money but when you sit back and look at it, if we let Talib walk and don't wanna spend that $ on a good CB we will be stuck going to the draft for one. and that's hit and miss. if Talib walks and we don't replace him with any immediate starter Dennard and Ryan will be our outside corners then. I think we need Talib back at any reasonable cost unless we plan on making a run at Altteraun Verner, Vontae Davis, D Rodgers-Crom., Captain Munnerlyn, Sam Shields or Walter Thurmond. None of whom I'd consider a #1 CB on this team. all are smaller guys except for DRC snd we need some form of height at CB.

     

     



    Kelly may be back, but the guy tore up his knee, at 33 (or however old he is), is he going to be the same? It was a shame when he went down, he was playing so well, but that is what you get when you sign 33 year old guys...you just can't count on them. His knee injury was a non contact injury...he didn't twist it the wrong way, no one fell on him...his 33 year old knee tendons just flat out gave up on him. Still I'd take him back for depth in hopes he could rotate in - which is what you should expect a 33 year old to do - rotate in, not be "the guy". As soon as Vince went down I knew we were cooked.

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:

    As for Kelly, he ain't going anywhere.  His best s hot is here for a ring. He knows that. So does Vince.  The good news with him is, his ACL happened so early in the year, he has some time to get back, even if it's Week 10 or whatever the extended PUP list thingy is.

    With Vince hopefully working alongside Kelly, maybe Mayo on site, each pushing one another in rehab, my money is on them all to come back with a vengeance even if not strong out of the gate.

     

    Monday, January 20, 2014 Print Email Be the first to comment By: Karen Guregian   

    Tommy Kelly was in the Patriots locker room today, just as he has been on a several other occasions since suffering a season-ending knee injury in the Patriots Week 5 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals.

    The defensive tackle was having a good year, and had helped give the interior of the defensive line some push up front before his right knee gave out during the Bengals game.

    Kelly didn't want to go into great detail about the knee problem, but mentioned he had the injury before, which was a torn ACL.  Kelly underwent surgery to repair the knee and is well into his rehab.

    ''It was hard, but at the end of the day, it's football,'' said Kelly. ''This ain't my first injury. I've had the same injury twice. So I've been through it, been through the rehab, so I'm very confident I'll  be okay, because I've come back from it.''

    It will be interesting to see what the Patriots do with the 33-year-old lineman. They would save $2.5 million against the cap by cutting him. For his part, Kelly would love to come back, and is hoping to stay. That might mean having to re-work the final year of his deal.

    ''I want to finish the deal,'' Kelly said. ''Coach Belichick gave me the opportunity to help the team. I want to finish the deal. I want to hold up my end of the obligation. He gave me a s hot. I don't feel like I fulfilled what I came here to do. I have another chance. I just gotta get my knee right.''

    Kelly indicated he planned on remaining in the area to finish out his rehab with the Patriots training staff.



    Should be interesting, I didn't realize they can save that much by cutting him, that makes it even more interesting. Sounds like he may be willing to restructure - and he should - a guy like him, at his age, coming of a acl tear has no leverage. I don't care that he tore it before...when was that? College? Things are different when you are 33. Kelly sounds like a stand up guy (which is rare), I have no doubt he wants to do the right thing, I just don't know if his body will let him.

    Keeping him around (or not) will depend on what's out there and who we may be able to bring in here. Too me Kelly would be nice coming in off the bench to give a younger talent a break, anything more than that and we aren't going to be better up front...same for Vince.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Footballexpert45. Show Footballexpert45's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    I also wouldn't break the bank for Talib.  But this defense has holes, I still haven't seen a pass rush and doubt it will happen anytime soon.  The safety position is in shambles.  Lots of holes too fill in the defense as we saw recently.  I just don't see one offseason as being enough to correct this many issues.

    And as long as the GM signs players like Adrian Wilson in the offseason, I wouldn't expect much change.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Footballexpert45. Show Footballexpert45's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to WazzuWheatfarmer's comment:

    Agree with your thoughts.  I hope we draft a talented DT.  VW and/or Kelly might or might not return to full strength.  Can't count on either of them.  Chris Jones and Vellano are good, hard working players, but not really special.  I do like what Siliga showed, but we clearly need more talent at this position.  I'll believe it when I see it with Armstead.  I also love our LB corp, but another young, athletic guy who can cover and blitz effectively would certainly be a welcome addition.  I think our secondary is in decent shape, too.  I would really try to make a deal work with Talib.  You are correct in thinking that it would need to be pretty team friendly due to his injury history, but I think that is possible.  I love mccourty and Harmon's potential, but another safety who can cover is needed.  All in all, I like our defense moving forward.  We have good players, just need to shore up the D line and keep adding talent.



    Mccourtny played like crap in Denver.  Not sure what your seeing as he stinks a safety and can't play corner.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    If Wilfork won't play for a vet contract, Wilfork should retire because no one will sign him for more.

     

    Unless someone better is on the market at CB, sign Talib and hope for the best. Sign another CB for insurance.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:

    We're not winning anything without a better QB in the postseason.  Period.  The D is way, way down the list of concerns for me at this point. BB has done a very nice job in recent drafts putting together quality players on D.  

    The talent on this D in recent years has been good and is now even better with another very good draft BB yet again. If he nails another one, watch out. The only thing that held them back from running roughshod, and maybe going 14-2 or 15-1 this year were not only awful game ending bagjob calls, but obviously, health to their entire middle D.

    As for Talib, you offer the exact same deal with an incentive laden based 2015 contract. That is of course, if the doctors don't feel his hip issue will carry on like that every year.

    Talib doesn't have much leverage, which is a good thing, but if he's expecting a multi year deal that is elite money, then he's not signing here, he'll be signing with the Redskins or some crap team.

    It's an interesting dilemma, but BB has the leverage in this one, believe it or not.



    Well actually I thought he played pretty well. He had two...maybe three bad throws in Denver. Did he even have a bad throw against Indy? I don't think he did. He didn't throw a single pick or turn the ball over either...can't ask for much more than that when he was throwing to one and a half slot receivers and nothing more. I seriously don't think there has been one single quarterback in the history of the NFL that has gone into the post season with less talent around him. You name it...he didn't have it. A line that could protect? Nope. A tight end to throw to? Nope. Two tightends to throw to? Nope. A deep threat? No. A big redzone target? Nope. A dynamic back that can run and catch? Nope. A fullback that he could check down to? Nope. He didn't even have Dobson for more than a handful of plays in Denver...Thompkins ran a slant against Indy and got himself knocked into next week. Did you see the throw to him? That was as perfect a throw as you'll ever see, even an unconscious Thompkins almost had it.

    So no turn overs in two playoff games...managed both games well...made good decisions...what else did you expect? Did you think you were watching make believe land? Where a quarterback will dance around pass rushers and throw through defenders to receivers that are covered for miraculous touchdowns? Is that what you thought was going to happen? If so then you are clueless - as soon as Gronk went down this thing was over - you knew that, I knew that, the look on Belichick's face sure told everyone that when it happened. Sad, but until the talent gets better around Brady we will not be winning anything...being fiscally responsible sure the hell isn't going to win Super Bowls...that is the truth, but the last ten years has already proved all that.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    The way I look at it, DT is the most critical position this offseason. DB's can't hold forever so we need to find the pass rush again, LB's can't rush if they need to stay back and worry about RB's making to the 2nd level or if there is no hole to squeeze through to begin with, and the DE can't get a good edge rush going if all a QB has to do is step up into the pocket because they can't generate a rush from the middle.

    So, breaking it down they usually run 24-25 people of D every year. If they run with 9 DB's, 5 LB's, and 4 DE's that leaves about 6 spots for DT's. Wilfork and Kelly should be in (hopefully) then I'd give two spots to whoever earns it between Chris Jones, Siliga, Armstead, and Vellano. Then I would draft a DT high (eventual Kelly or Wilfork replacement and spot starter) and still look to get a #2/3 DT in FA. Raji seems to make sense for the right price. He hasn't looked the same the last 2 years so his contract might be affordable. Now you have a pretty good overall DL with the benefit that Wilfork and Kelly don't have to play 70+% of the snaps because there's no one under them.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    Saw Jones getting tripled team one play vs Denver. That is not really disapearing it is eating up 3 blockers.

    To beat a team like Denver at full strength or Colts with Luck over the next year will need another player like him on the D line.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:

    Saw Jones getting tripled team one play vs Denver. That is not really disapearing it is eating up 3 blockers.

    To beat a team like Denver at full strength or Colts with Luck over the next year will need another player like him on the D line.



    Ok, if you saw that fine. I also saw him swallowed up by single blocking. I know he was held a lot against Indy, but I didn't see them put more than one guy on him. Against Denver everytime I saw him pass rushing he was single blocked and blocked well - now keep in mind that was their backup left tackle. I do think he is a great player...he's my favorite player on the team right now, but I expected much more out of him during the two biggest games of the year...never mind that he disappeared for the month of December.

    You are right though, another player on the defensive line with his type of ability would put this guy into a whole other level.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dreighver. Show dreighver's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    I'm more concerned about Wilfork than Kelly going forward.

    Kelly is a natural athlete who has suffered this injury before. He knows how to handle the rehab, how to stay in shape, and although he's massive (6'7", 315), he isn't necessarily overweight -- he fills his frame but no more.

    Wilfork, on the other hand, has never suffered an achilles injury before, achilles are notoriously tougher to come back from than knee injuries, and Wilfork has a history of diabetes in his family. That, along with his large frame, and I'm worried that he may balloon up in weight and never be the same again. Hopefully, if nothing else, he gives us a stout run defender. 

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    In response to dreighver's comment:

    I'm more concerned about Wilfork than Kelly going forward.

    Kelly is a natural athlete who has suffered this injury before. He knows how to handle the rehab, how to stay in shape, and although he's massive (6'7", 315), he isn't necessarily overweight -- he fills his frame but no more.

    Wilfork, on the other hand, has never suffered an achilles injury before, achilles are notoriously tougher to come back from than knee injuries, and Wilfork has a history of diabetes in his family. That, along with his large frame, and I'm worried that he may balloon up in weight and never be the same again. Hopefully, if nothing else, he gives us a stout run defender. 



    Some good points, but is a Achilles tougher to come back from than a acl tear? I thought I read that once the Achilles is healed it's good, there isn't any larger chance of it tearing again, etc, plus it doesn't take away your speed like a acl injury does. Am I wrong here?

    I agree with Kelly being a better athlete, etc, but that knee injury very well may end that.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: The defense going forward

    The defense going forward --- we need to become dominant in the front seven. Yes I agree we could certainly upgrade from Gregory and we need to resign Talib (or equivalent)... I think we seem to have a core of good LBs. SO we need DT/NT and perhaps a stud DE. I wonder if BB might consider trying to get back to the 3-4 but not sure we can find the right DE to anchor one side and not sure Jones can play DE in a 3-4. So perhaps we will have a base 4-3 with some packages...

    Anyway.. we need DT/NT and stud DE. Nink can rotate in at DE and at LB if appropriate. Jones can get a breath every now and then I suppose.

     

     
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