The Elephant In the Room

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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    O'Brien is a lot like some of the fans on the board. Unless he is up a couple of scores he gets nervous and wants to go all spread to get the quick scores. It's almost as if he doesn't trust what has brought the Pats success in the past.

    It's funny, when the Pats slow the ball down with a healthy mix of run and high % pass plays they have little to no trouble going down the field. However, it might be just me but when they get a penalty early in the drive or when they try for a 15+ yrd pass on 1st down that the drives stall. I remember in the past we could be 1st and 20 and the typical plays we'd see are draws, screens, and passes in the 5-10 yrd range trusting the guy with the ball will make a play and get extra yards. Now it seems like they get in a long situation they have to try to get the 1st on that play.

    What drives me nuts is when they try to go for a homerun on 1st down. We typically don't convert them so why not try higher % plays and see if someone can make something happen. 2nd and <5 is a good spot to go for a homerun try. Even if you don't make it then it's only 3rd and <5, but 2nd and 10 forces you to almost throw for some good yards to prevent a 3rd and long.
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    I was fine with the play calling yesterday. You've got to give the Dallas defense a lot of credit - they were able to make some plays and give the Pats offense fits. 

    From what I've seen, the only thing stopping the Patriots offense (and it has been this case for the past year) is themselves. When they have poor offensive performances, it's due to untimely turnovers, and mental errors such as penalties. 

    I think we overanalyze the play calling. Just because someone on this board thinks we should have run the football on a given play, doesn't mean that it would have been successful in that situation. 


     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    I thought this was going to be a Haynesworth thread.

    It's not like the Pats have played cupcakes so far this year...San Diego, Dallas, Jets, Oakland are all exceptional defenses.  The Pats had been putting up 30 points a game against great defenses.  With the Pats d looking like they may be turning a corner (knock on wood) - this team will be in good shape coming out of the bye week.  The NFL is tough, and 5-1 with the schedule the Pats have had is pretty good.  Fans can question play calling in any given game, but at the end of the day, the Pats are winning tough games.  Maybe with the bye week the Pats will have some time to add some new wrinkles and work on tightening up, maybe working in Vereen and Woodhead on some screen plays.....of course Mr. Screen himself, Kevin Faulk, will be returning as well.  Time will tell.
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room


    Russ, I've been hard on O'Brien as well over the years, but yesterday I thought was decent. Did we run enough? Did we mix in the run properly? We could have done better for sure. We hung 101 rushing yards on a Dallas defense that is near the top in that category. We did so in part because they respect our ability to pass, and our Oline did a pretty good job agasinst a very good Dallas front 7.

    What I'm concerned about is the 3rd WR spot. I know you have been on the Ocho bandwagon supporting him, and even came out saying he would have a big game against Dallas. he was invisible yesterday. 6 snaps? really? Against a not so great Dallas secondary? When Dallas committed to stopping or slowing down Welker and the 2nd/3rd receivers should have had a nice day.

    What was encouraging is the use of the TE's yesterday. Perfect example when a team slows Welker, how we light em' up wth Gronk and Hernandez and sprinkle in Branch. I have to give props to OB/TB for this, as they certainly planned for thsi prior to playing. This was not like the Jests playoff game last year where we had no answers when Wes was shut down.

    OB is not the consumate OC, but he seems to be using his pieces and parts a litle better than last year. I think it has to do in part with the maturing of the 2 TE offense, 2nd year in system for the kids, when last year was a rookie year, Hernandez hurt down the stretch and all we had was Welker and Branch. If he can learn how to use the run more effectively, AND we a 3rd WR emerges, this will be a hard offense to stop no matter what they throw at us.
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    They had 10 drives 4 scored (2 TD, 2FG) 4 turnovers 2 Punts The Pats stopped themselves, when you only Punt twice you should score a lot of points, unless you turn the ball over a bunch. BTW- Dallas punted 4 times.
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    In Response to Re: The Elephant In the Room:
    [QUOTE]Russ, I've been hard on O'Brien as well over the years, but yesterday I thought was decent. Did we run enough? Did we mix in the run properly? We could have done better for sure. We hung 101 rushing yards on a Dallas defense that is near the top in that category. We did so in part because they respect our ability to pass, and our Oline did a pretty good job agasinst a very good Dallas front 7. What I'm concerned about is the 3rd WR spot. I know you have been on the Ocho bandwagon supporting him, and even came out saying he would have a big game against Dallas. he was invisible yesterday. 6 snaps? really? Against a not so great Dallas secondary? When Dallas committed to stopping or slowing down Welker and the 2nd/3rd receivers should have had a nice day. What was encouraging is the use of the TE's yesterday. Perfect example when a team slows Welker, how we light em' up wth Gronk and Hernandez and sprinkle in Branch. I have to give props to OB/TB for this, as they certainly planned for thsi prior to playing. This was not like the Jests playoff game last year where we had no answers when Wes was shut down. OB is not the consumate OC, but he seems to be using his pieces and parts a litle better than last year. I think it has to do in part with the maturing of the 2 TE offense, 2nd year in system for the kids, when last year was a rookie year, Hernandez hurt down the stretch and all we had was Welker and Branch. If he can learn how to use the run more effectively, AND we a 3rd WR emerges, this will be a hard offense to stop no matter what they throw at us.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Lifer, I'm not sure the 3rd WR should be a concern honestly.

    When you look at the receiver tree as a whole this is what you see:

    #1 Welker
    #2 TE's (Gronk/Hern)
    #3 Branch
    #4 RB's
    #5 3rd WR

    When you realize that the 3rd WR is actually the 5th option at receiver on this team then only getting 6-10 snaps a game is pretty typical. We don't run a heavy spread where the 3rd WR is on the field a lot, the Pats use a ton of 2 TE sets now so it's rare that the 3rd WR even gets on the field anymore. The 3rd WR shouldn't be a concern for this team provided they can get a couple of grabs a game and provide a couple of surprise 1st downs.
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    In Response to Re: The Elephant In the Room:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Elephant In the Room : Let's face it. The Ryans have the blueprint on our shotgun/spread base. We know this. It's old news. O'Brien forgot to run in the first half. That simple.  3 total runs for Ridley, BJGE with a turf toe issue, and 21 total runs. We got KILLED in TOP. At one point, it showed a 10 minute advantage for Dallas. I agree he's been better, but I have no confidence against elite Ds that match up well and how he calls during a game. I am stunned that some still don't see it.  Branch had ZERO targets in the Buffalo game. You know why? Brady. When are people going to place some accountability on the guy wit the ball his hands 65% of the time? Both INTs are on Brady. One was tipped, another forced.   Run the ball and you limit the D's being able to dictate. Also, Hernandez is essentially the 3rd WR in this offense.   Ocho needs to be Gaffney. Dallas has the blueprint and we yet again played into it. I can't tell if it's arrogance or an ego problem.  Baffling. BJGE was hammering them on his runs.  Hammering them.  He has turf toe and they';re slamming it down their throats, only to ignore the run.  Ridley is barely used!
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Would you consider what we ran last night a spread offense?
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    In Response to The Elephant In the Room:
    [QUOTE]O'Brien/Brady. This is the 3rd game this year where O'Brien has failed to outperform his counterpart in the coordinating role, during a game. SD was one, Buffalo the second and now this game here.  I think the worst play and best example of this problem was BJGE being used a rare time in the first half, going for 9 yards, gashing the Dallas Run D, and then O'Brien calling a passing play which leads to a 15 yard sack, 3rd and 16. It's just mindboggling to see the run established early in games, trigger sustained, strong second halves and then watch them throw away the run game this week. Ridley started the game, he had a big run early and then they never really ran it again much at all in the first half.   They tried to run BJGE in the second half, but again, it's too late. Then, when subbing in Woodhead, he did nothing because the D knows they are using him as the obligatory runner. While this has been going on, our D has been unfairly maligned. They've grown leaps and bounds as a result of this stuttering offense from it, but they will never win in the playoffs against good Ds like this. And this has no bearing on Brady's obvious genius on the last drive. The point is, it probably shouldn't have come to that.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

         Here we go again with the obligatory O'Brien bashing! Did O'Brien throw those two interceptions? Did O'Brien end a promising drive by fumbling at the Dallas 21 yard line? 

         Yep...O'Brien is at fault for everything that went wrong with the offense. As for that final TD drive, the reason it came about was because BB had O'Brien gagged and removed from the field, and let Brady do it on his own...LOL!!!!   
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    It seems like we did not see Woodhead until the 2nd half. Would of like to have seen some more runs and more screens to beat the blitz.
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    In Response to Re: The Elephant In the Room:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The Elephant In the Room :      Here we go again with the obligatory O'Brien bashing! Did O'Brien throw those two interceptions? Did O'Brien end a promising drive by fumbling at the Dallas 21 yard line?       Yep...O'Brien is at fault for everything that went wrong with the offense. As for that final TD drive, the reason it came about was because BB had O'Brien gagged and removed from the field, and let Brady do it on his own...LOL!!!!   
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure about Russ but I don't blame O'Brien for all the O's woes, however, some of his play calling is suspect. Going to the game thread you can see the couple of drives previous to the game winning drive people were screaming to mix in the run and stop tossing the ball deep. The play calling was geared slightly more towards a spread O at that point and it failed them. During the final drive you saw what most were calling for. Shorter high % passes with a number of good check downs that might have only gotten 5-10 yards per play but it was a steady drive down the field in the manner we saw in 01', 03', 04' and not like in 07'. Russ is right when we establish the run early with check downs it opens up the field later in the game. I think O'Brien falls to much in love with passing the ball at times and will get into a grove where the play calling becomes predictable to even those on the board. He just needs to mix it up a bit more, moving away from 07' and get closer to 04' in play calling
     
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    Re: The Elephant In the Room

    We turned the ball over 4 times.  That is why we only scored 20.  2 of the turnovers were definitely not a result of the playcalling (both fumbles) and I think you can make a convincing argument that the first interception was not a bad play call, but rather poor execution and a good play by Dallas.  I agree we could have run more, particularly in the red zone, but there were a few instances where penalties put us in obvious passing situations.  When you turn the ball over 4 times and run a hurry up offense to counter some of the things the Dallas D was doing the ToP is going to be a bit skewed.  Dallas is one of the more loaded D's we are going to see all year and I'd like to think we will take better care of the ball in the future.  

    Rusty I don't understand how you can argue that the playcalling for Dallas was superior.  They basically had the same run/pass ratio as us and the conservative gameplan at the end of the game is what let us get the ball back for TB to do his thing.
     
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