The ELITES have surpassed Belichick the GM...Could it be that the LEAGUE is simply catching up to the PATS?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    The ELITES have surpassed Belichick the GM...Could it be that the LEAGUE is simply catching up to the PATS?

    as they say, the other teams get paid too. we seemed to think that if brady and BB just showed up, it would all be gravy. look at how a peyton coaches.. used to be ONLY bel had the guts to do such things like go for it in crucial 4th downs, come up with creative offensive schemes, or get guys immediately off the street to come in and produce on defense. others are also on the imitation bandwagon. same with the draft. others too look for bargains and beat us to the punch on things. also with so many ex-pat coaches and managemt guys around the league, they are increasingly beatg us to the punch on hi-value type guys. we are no longer that hungry or the udogs. other guys are much hungrier and with more desire to prove stuff. we have gotten a bit fat, arrogant and complacent. cant seem to make adjustments or to adapt to others. seem to think its just all about us. just play our game.. wrong! as others change, we must too at times. used to be we had a monopoly on young hungry and productive coaches ahead of the curve. we no longer have that edge. dean pees has to go! used to be we would just eat guys like oakland for lunch on trades... yet the burgess deals just stink. same with findg thrash heap free agents as we did with vrabel. now, look at us.. galloway and springs are total busts that cost us a lotta $$. we still do a lot of the same stuff, it just doesnt work or surprise anymore. it used to be bel would outscheme, outintimidate and outthink eveyone, now no one is shaking and seem to look forward to rubbing it in with him. they are now playing chess, as we play checkers. they are on to the next big things while we are still cruising around with our model Ts, talking about how great we USED to be. we better wake up and join the present while getting a jump on the FUTURE AGAIN!

    bottom line, i still hope this team can sneak into the playoffs and make a run. realistically, i think they have to lose again so that belichik can see the light as he did after 06 when it he was slapped in face about our mediocre WRs. the problem isnt just personnel and talent but more fundamentally with schemes and philosophy. much harder to change that in mid-season. old belichick aint walkg through that door. he's now like the 5th best coach. used to be peerless. brady is now like the 7th best QB, used to be he also had no peer. likewise with moss at WR. we need a major roster makeover and assistant coaches' turnover. must consider tradg  brady and other type guys in off-season also. time to end the seau comebacks next year also. we may have to just blow it all up and reload with better approach and schemes!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsfaninsatx. Show patsfaninsatx's posts

    Re: Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?

    I believe that TB still has it despite what some people think.  Moss still gets the respect from defenses like he did in 2007.  Is he the same Moss?  I doubt it, but he still opens things up for Welker.  Bottom line with these two is that due to the lack of creativity on the offensive side of the ball the Pats have become Welker dimensional.  No balance on offense, no run game and sub-par performance on the offensive line for both pass and rush offense.

    As far as BB, as much as I would like to be wrong history shows that all great coaches eventually decline.  Believe it or not people he will not be dominant forever.  One thing that most of us seem to overlook is the fact that he has lost lots of key personel on the sidelines as well as the front office.  BB didnt win all 3SB's by himself.  He surrounded himself with great personel and players that fit his style which led to producing a "Dynasty".


    It would definately be great to see a reunion with both Weis and Crennel on the sidelines, but I believe its highly unlikely.  Even if he did, what happens if it dont work out like we all would have expected it to.  Alot of people would start to complain on how BB makes bad decisions, he should have gone for a so and so.


    So I guess my answer would be that the game has caught up to him.  Maybe not the X's and O's, but the success of running a winning team.  When you win other teams see that and want to hire personel from that organization and try to imulate(spell check) it.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?:
    I believe that TB still has it despite what some people think.  Moss still gets the respect from defenses like he did in 2007.  Is he the same Moss?  I doubt it, but he still opens things up for Welker.  Bottom line with these two is that due to the lack of creativity on the offensive side of the ball the Pats have become Welker dimensional.  No balance on offense, no run game and sub-par performance on the offensive line for both pass and rush offense. As far as BB, as much as I would like to be wrong history shows that all great coaches eventually decline.  Believe it or not people he will not be dominant forever.  One thing that most of us seem to overlook is the fact that he has lost lots of key personel on the sidelines as well as the front office.  BB didnt win all 3SB's by himself.  He surrounded himself with great personel and players that fit his style which led to producing a "Dynasty". It would definately be great to see a reunion with both Weis and Crennel on the sidelines, but I believe its highly unlikely.  Even if he did, what happens if it dont work out like we all would have expected it to.  Alot of people would start to complain on how BB makes bad decisions, he should have gone for a so and so. So I guess my answer would be that the game has caught up to him.  Maybe not the X's and O's, but the success of running a winning team.  When you win other teams see that and want to hire personel from that organization and try to imulate(spell check) it.
    Posted by patsfaninsatx
    Greeat logical points. i do not think bel has issues that cant be fixed if admitted in the mirror right now! so far he has been arrogant and recalcitrant, seemingly downplaying everything as his rome burns. time to release or bench a burgess and put SAD up front with TBC and what not. Perhaps have junior in there starting and have guyton come bak off the bench. enough of willhite, put springs or butler out there or even wheatley. its time to shake both personnel and schemes up and become more of a drill sergeant. his stuff isnt working and he has seemed oblivious to that. keeps thinking its just one game, one quarter, when it is clearly a persistent pattern! we are fossilized! now, its like the other teams know what the heck is coming before we do it. its like they are the ones well advanced with the secret cameras and other "creative methods! its a dog eat dog world and we have milkbone undies on!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPKilla2009. Show MVPKilla2009's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?

    Bubba is there a reason you only show up to be negative? I am convinced you are just a troll pretending to be a Pats fan to see if you can some how turn some of us against our team. All you do is post threads about the down fall of this team its all you do.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?:
    Some people think everyone who says the truth is a troll.  Unless you state the Pats will win it all, the Pats are the best, the Pats have #1 offense and defense, then you are a troll.  :(
    Posted by Patsarethebest
    amen brotha! i am a fan, but many like killa choose to ignore the positive. i want the pats to win and hopefully win the SB but man can't live on hope alone!  facts are facts. logic is logic. the killas have chosen to totally ignore my other more positive post agreeing with bel's decision to send home 4 of his players (all starters) for being tardy eventhough there is a snowstorm. i think it will help this team's mindset. when we do good, i positively flow with it. when they dont, i speak up negatively.  so what....
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?:
    Bubba is there a reason you only show up to be negative? I am convinced you are just a troll pretending to be a Pats fan to see if you can some how turn some of us against our team. All you do is post threads about the down fall of this team its all you do.
    Posted by MVPKilla2009


    Killa, the people that post here are representative of our society as a whole.  Haven't all of us worked with people who always see doom and gloom, boss knows nothing, owner knows nothing, company will go out of business, and I could go on and on.  I've worked with quite a few of them.  Some of them are good friends; just pessimistic as he ll.  I would never invite them to the house to cheer me up.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    The game has caught up to Belichick - better yet, the league caught up to Belichick.

    Now they know he's going to try to take away their strength.  They know what he's going to do in each situation, and they're prepared.

    They need some spark again, and someone like Weis might be the answer to their current predictability.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NEGAME. Show NEGAME's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    and still every team shows up and plays their best against the Patriots. Remember what the Saints were saying and it wasn't just words--they measure themselves against the Patriots if they can beat the Patriots --it shows what they are made of.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?:
    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS? : amen brotha! i am a fan, but many like killa choose to ignore the positive. i want the pats to win and hopefully win the SB but man can't live on hope alone!  facts are facts. logic is logic. the killas have chosen to totally ignore my other more positive post agreeing with bel's decision to send home 4 of his players (all starters) for being tardy eventhough there is a snowstorm. i think it will help this team's mindset. when we do good, i positively flow with it. when they dont, i speak up negatively.  so what....
    Posted by bubbazilla


    Bubba, I don't have a problem with someone pointing out the bad areas in a non trash-talking manner, but I'm not sure I can think of many truly positive posts from you.  When you do write something positive, it's usually following something negative.  For instance, mentioning the problems with the late players (negative) followed by saying BB is doing the right thing (positive).  It's analogous to saying "you live in a termite infested, cockroach inhabited, eyesore of a home, but you're trying to clean it up and I hope you do because I want to see you live in a good home".  

    So yeah, you're probably not the kind of cheery, positive person I would ever ask to cheer me up if I was on the Golden Gate Bridge contemplating a jump to end my misery.  You would probably tell me "look, your life does rot and you do have a million problems, and your wife might even be cheating on you, but if you work hard you can turn it around and hold your head up high again...  I'm hoping you can do it." lol.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?:
    as they say, the other teams get paid too. we seemed to think that if brady and BB just showed up, it would all be gravy. look at how a peyton coaches.. used to be ONLY bel had the guts to do such things like go for it in crucial 4th downs, come up with creative offensive schemes, or get guys immediately off the street to come in and produce on defense. others are also on the imitation bandwagon. same with the draft. others too look for bargains and beat us to the punch on things. also with so many ex-pat coaches and managemt guys around the league, they are increasingly beatg us to the punch on hi-value type guys. we are no longer that hungry or the udogs. other guys are much hungrier and with more desire to prove stuff. we have gotten a bit fat, arrogant and complacent. cant seem to make adjustments or to adapt to others. seem to think its just all about us. just play our game.. wrong! as others change, we must too at times. used to be we had a monopoly on young hungry and productive coaches ahead of the curve. we no longer have that edge. dean pees has to go! used to be we would just eat guys like oakland for lunch on trades... yet the burgess deals just stink. same with findg thrash heap free agents as we did with vrabel. now, look at us.. galloway and springs are total busts that cost us a lotta $$. we still do a lot of the same stuff, it just doesnt work or surprise anymore. it used to be bel would outscheme, outintimidate and outthink eveyone, now no one is shaking and seem to look forward to rubbing it in with him. they are now playing chess, as we play checkers. they are on to the next big things while we are still cruising around with our model Ts, talking about how great we USED to be. we better wake up and join the present while getting a jump on the FUTURE AGAIN! bottom line, i still hope this team can sneak into the playoffs and make a run. realistically, i think they have to lose again so that belichik can see the light as he did after 06 when it he was slapped in face about our mediocre WRs. the problem isnt just personnel and talent but more fundamentally with schemes and philosophy. much harder to change that in mid-season. old belichick aint walkg through that door. he's now like the 5th best coach. used to be peerless. brady is now like the 7th best QB, used to be he also had no peer. likewise with moss at WR. we need a major roster makeover and assistant coaches' turnover. must consider tradg  brady and other type guys in off-season also. time to end the seau comebacks next year also. we may have to just blow it all up and reload with better approach and schemes!
    Posted by bubbazilla


    Choircontrarian, is that you?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MarcW1. Show MarcW1's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    I think it's as simple as the execution isn't there for all 60 minutes.  Perhaps players got complacent with the return of Brady, and that he could individually carry the team?  Maybe Belichick has taken on too much responsibility and could use someone like Weis to help in offensive game planning? 

    This team is about 4 plays away from being 11-1.  Yes, the Saints beat us soundly, but our other losses were sooooo close.  Our defense has a lot of fresh faces and they're still making mistakes. They'll continue to improve.  I still think we will make the playoffs and can do some damage if not win it all.
           
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jedinate. Show jedinate's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    The problem isn't BB, although he has been making bad decions. Look at his most succesfull years, he had great coordinators.

    I'm sorry, who is calling the shots now, I forgot their names? Seriously the offense only uses 1/4 of the field. Where are the 10 passes to 10 different receiver days?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?:
    I think it's as simple as the execution isn't there for all 60 minutes.  Perhaps players got complacent with the return of Brady, and that he could individually carry the team?  Maybe Belichick has taken on too much responsibility and could use someone like Weis to help in offensive game planning?  This team is about 4 plays away from being 11-1.  Yes, the Saints beat us soundly, but our other losses were sooooo close.  Our defense has a lot of fresh faces and they're still making mistakes. They'll continue to improve.  I still think we will make the playoffs and can do some damage if not win it all.        
    Posted by MarcW1
    is cup half full or half empty? we could also easily be 6-6... remember the buffalo game? or even worse. what if we hadnt picked up the 4th and one versus the falcons for example. as the great parcells once said... "u r who your record says you are!" sorry guys, but matt cassell would have a better record! i blame both bb and brady thus far. brady because of his knee situation and other health issues, gissy wearing him out with her trojan horse games, and of course with him not getting his proper rest and recuperation due to her pregnancy issue! hopefully, now that the pats' future #1 qb is here, we get daddy to remember who he is again in the fourth quater of games!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS?:
    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams just surpassed the PATS? : Bubba, I don't have a problem with someone pointing out the bad areas in a non trash-talking manner, but I'm not sure I can think of many truly positive posts from you.  When you do write something positive, it's usually following something negative.  For instance, mentioning the problems with the late players (negative) followed by saying BB is doing the right thing (positive).  It analogous to saying "you live in a termite infested, cockroach inhabited, eyesore of a home, but you're trying to clean it up and I hope you do because I want to see you live in a good home".   So yeah, you're probably not the kind of cheery, positive person I would ever ask to cheer me up if I was on the Golden Gate Bridge contemplating a jump to end my misery.  You would probably tell me "look, your life does rot and you do have a million problems, and your wife might even be cheating on you, but if you work hard you can turn it around and hold your head up high again...  I'm hoping you can do it." lol.
    Posted by carawaydj
    mr. caraway, you actually forced me to have a dr. phil-look in the mirror moment there. my main rotational gal has said this for a while now. but i just assumed it was just anotha usual oversensitive chick thing. 
    guess its similar to me saying something like "your brownies arent all that bad..findg a way to eat them is better than throwg them away or giving it to the homeless or pets"... or "for someone with such a small, sensitive throat you do quite a good job down there.."  ok, i PLEDGE to let the positive dominate my posts for the indefinite future... wont be perfect but.... 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ColtFan69. Show ColtFan69's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    It's the fact that you can't cheat anymore!  All of your wins prior to spygate are tainted and the league should strip your SB's because of BB's cheating.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBcheats. Show BBcheats's posts

    Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: Has the game caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just caught up to and surpassed the PATS?:
    Bubba is there a reason you only show up to be negative? I am convinced you are just a troll pretending to be a Pats fan to see if you can some how turn some of us against our team. All you do is post threads about the down fall of this team its all you do.
    Posted by MVPKilla2009


    Yea - but he is still RIGHT!!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    To answer that question you would have to know what it is that BB did better than everybody else.  I don't think it was all about his brilliant schemes and x's and o's.
     
    He's as good as anybody on schemes but the truth is the NFL is not that innovative.

      Schemes are "if they do this than we do that", nothing that hasn't been seen or done hundreds of times.  Great coaches are able to convey that knowledge to thier players and have them prepared to identify and adjust which scheme to use.

    I think the thing that set BB apart from others was his philosophy of taking an economics approach to his roster.  He was the first person to figure out how to build a dynasty under a salary cap and free agency.  He took a how much "bang for my buck" do players give the team approach. 

    I do think other teams are copying that blueprint and so they probably are catching up to him in that respect.  Consideriing he has gone to 4 SB's in 8 years I don't think he is about to change his philosophy.
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?:
    I dont see many of yu starting posts either..so if you never have an opinon to share or a topic to discuss, but you wait for someone to make a point and jump all over him...thats not fair either...I mean you dont want to put yourself out there, but you wanna discredit what the next person sais...The fact is this was and still is a forum...not a cult where we all think and talk the same.....I myself like to hear the opinons of others no matter how silly...cuz it gives me a perspective of the emotion of our fan base which is very passionate..And I believe everyone here besides obvious trolls  really mean well..but how can you expect a real fan not to be emotional , upset, delusional after watching this team this year...I mean I cant figure them out....and I dont think everyone would be so harsh if not for the fact we know we are better than this..if not just the offensive execution..how does it go away every 2nd half...but everyone wants to drink kool-aid..and say HEY!  you cant do that..this man gave you 3 rings..Really..nothing on my hand.  Kraft runs the best org..blah..blah...the fact is we all have a right as paying fans to be objective about the team put on the field..and Bill will have it no other way..he never makes excuses...but now everyone wants to make excuses for him...WE all know and have seen this team do more with less..and thats whats frustrating....Jus sayin... And one last thing, you actually have a choice not to read the post...Thats why they have a heading...If you dont like the heading...then why click on it, read it and start complainin about it.....the next man/woman has the right to post just like you know matter their intellegence of the game...
    Posted by patsfan76
    let the church say AMEN!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    A guy at work who likes to bust my balls whenever the Pats lose asked me the other day who their defensive coordinator was and when I said, "Dean Pees," he looked at me as if he thought maybe I had just made that name up.

    What does that have to do with this?

    As Demetri Martin likes to say, "Think about it."
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other ELITES have just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?:
    To answer that question you would have to know what it is that BB did better than everybody else.  I don't think it was all about his brilliant schemes and x's and o's.   He's as good as anybody on schemes but the truth is the NFL is not that innovative.   Schemes are "if they do this than we do that", nothing that hasn't been seen or done hundreds of times.  Great coaches are able to convey that knowledge to thier players and have them prepared to identify and adjust which scheme to use. I think the thing that set BB apart from others was his philosophy of taking an economics approach to his roster.  He was the first person to figure out how to build a dynasty under a salary cap and free agency.  He took a how much "bang for my buck" do players give the team approach.  I do think other teams are copying that blueprint and so they probably are catching up to him in that respect.  Consideriing he has gone to 4 SB's in 8 years I don't think he is about to change his philosophy.
    Posted by shenanigan
    good points! fact is belichick the GM is hurting Belichick the coach! thats y most teams choose not to give anyone all that power. no team has gotten less from the draft in terms of starters than the PATS! 5 starters in 5 years says it all! pats need help. we need to do what the yanks did last off season during our next one. we need real pats in terms of both talent and attitude. burgess, moss and AD are not real PATS! you keep a vrabel or seymour if only for those reasons! rather have a vrabes playg only half the snaps than some stud who can play 90 percent with lousy attitude.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?:
    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS? : good points! fact is belichick the GM is hurting Belichick the coach! thats y most teams choose not to give anyone all that power. no team has gotten less from the draft in terms of starters than the PATS! 5 starters in 5 years says it all! pats need help. we need to do what the yanks did last off season during our next one. we need real pats in terms of both talent and attitude. burgess, moss and AD are not real PATS! you keep a vrabel or seymour if only for those reasons! rather have a vrabes playg only half the snaps than some stud who can play 90 percent with lousy attitude.
    Posted by bubbazilla

    You may be right, I just think we should give it some time and not rush to judgement.  He has been too successful for too long, one season that is good but not great isn't enough for me to change my mind.

    As far as 5 starters in 5 years I don't know about that.  What do you consider starters? Depending on package some players do start games sometimes, but not others. 

    Also do you consider Special teamers starters?  I think the 2006 and 2008 drafts were bad, but I count trading picks for players also.  Here are the Players from the last 5 years that I think have started at some point.

    Mankins
    Hobbs
    Kakzur
    Maroney
    Gostkowski
    Meriweather
    Mayo
    Wilhite
    Slater
    Chung
    Vollmer

    Pryor?
    Edelman?
    Butler?
    Tate?
    Not sure if those last four have started but they have played.  Cassel also started but I didn't count him. 

    Moss and Welker were Traded for draft picks so I would count them.
    subtract Hobbs because he was traded, and I count 12 starters currently on the team from the last 5 years aquired from the draft.
     
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    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?:
    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS? : You may be right, I just think we should give it some time and not rush to judgement.  He has been too successful for too long, one season that is good but not great isn't enough for me to change my mind. As far as 5 starters in 5 years I don't know about that.  What do you consider starters? Depending on package some players do start games sometimes, but not others.  Also do you consider Special teamers starters?  I think the 2006 and 2008 drafts were bad, but I count trading picks for players also.  Here are the Players from the last 5 years that I think have started at some point. Mankins Hobbs Kakzur Maroney Gostkowski Meriweather Mayo Wilhite Slater Chung Vollmer Pryor? Edelman? Butler? Tate? Not sure if those last four have started but they have played.  Cassel also started but I didn't count him.  Moss and Welker were Traded for draft picks so I would count them. subtract Hobbs because he was traded, and I count 12 starters currently on the team from the last 5 years aquired from the draft.
    Posted by shenanigan
    no, i do not count special teamers as starters unless they are kickers or long snapping! no one drafts guys in the top 4 rounds so they can peak at special teams! you can often get those guys off the street or elsewhere. nor do i count guys who are traded. like baseball, i want homegrown guys! look at the guys sent home yesterday, not surprised that 3 out of 4 of those guys were not drafted by pats. had they been originals, they would have known better. they would have left home an hour earlier, had the discipline in their soul and what not. this team has a lot of slackers and non-patriot guys in terms of philosophy, attitude, approach, self-motivation, and self-discipline. 

    bottom line i will give you INGRAM the long snapper. vollmer is not a starter. starting at different times does not cut it. the numbers i give you came from bob ryan and is based on NATIONAL standards and does not include general special teamers. about guys who play the skill positions and in the trenches. since other teams like the colts can do it, y not us? we must grow our own talent, esp since we are so creative and contrarian to most of the rest of the league!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    How about this...

    Do you think Steelers fans are thinking the same thing??  They're 6 - 6!!

    Right now, the Pats do not have the "game breaking" type players like they did, even last year.  NO ONE steps up on D, it seems.  Plus, have you seen some of the INTs which happened on passes thrown Moss' way?  In each case he COULD have made a play to break them up, seemed all he did was go through the motions!  I'd rather see an offensive PI than the other team taking the ball and going the other way.  It just seems to be that ONE play here and there that does this team in, doesn't it.  Some of you getting the feeling the younger players are there to collect a paycheck and don't live the Pats legacy?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbazilla. Show bubbazilla's posts

    Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?

    In Response to Re: The LEAGUE has caught up to Belichick...Could it be that the other teams have just surpassed the PATS?:
    How about this... Do you think Steelers fans are thinking the same thing??  They're 6 - 6!! Right now, the Pats do not have the "game breaking" type players like they did, even last year.  NO ONE steps up on D, it seems.  Plus, have you seen some of the INTs which happened on passes thrown Moss' way?  In each case he COULD have made a play to break them up, seemed all he did was go through the motions!  I'd rather see an offensive PI than the other team taking the ball and going the other way.  It just seems to be that ONE play here and there that does this team in, doesn't it.  Some of you getting the feeling the younger players are there to collect a paycheck and don't live the Pats legacy?
    Posted by agcsbill
    from whom are they to learn? mayo? no bruschi, vrabes, seymour, harrison anymore! they aint walking through that door! SEAU better be startg this weekend! dont care how old or slow he is, the guy has pride, heart and is a REAL patriot! Guyton or AD can come off the bench in a situational role! hopefully, its guyton!
     
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