The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    The Pats' pick up of DB Vincent Fuller made me think two things:
    • First, our secondary is an absolute mess -- and how on earth could BB have let it get this bad?
    • Second, BB's brilliance as a coach has never been more evident than in the way he's managed to win games with two wide receivers playing safety and a bunch of no names in the defensive backfield. 

    There's a weird paradox here.  In many ways BB is responsible for the woeful lack of talent in the defensive backfield. After all, it was BB who decided to cut Meriweather, Page, Bodden, and Sanders and instead keep Barret, Brown, and Molden.  At the same time, it's BB who was able to recognize potential ability in special team guys like Slater, Edelman, Arrington, and Ihedigbo and coach them up into reasonable, if not great, players at safety and corner. How can a coach so good at recognizing player abilities--and getting them to perform at such a high level even in positions at which they have no prior experience--also end up with a roster so devoid of raw talent?

    Well that question made me decide to go look at what's happened to the guys BB cut:
    • Merriweather is a back-up in Chicago who's really done nothing much at all since going there
    • Page played six games for the Eagles then got cut and has been warming the bench with the Vikings
    • Bodden is still out of football
    • Sanders is a part time starter in Atlanta and having a typical season for him--nothing too fancy, but a lot of solid play
    When I look at what has happened with these guys, the only possible mistake I can see is cutting Sanders.  But at the time BB did that, it seemed like a logical decision to release a high-paid, medium-performing veteran who was mostly a back-up in favour of youth with Brown and Barrett.  Barrett unfortunately got injured and Brown's been a disappointment.  But if Barret had stayed healthy, he may have been just as good as a back-up as Sanders . . . and at 27 he's a year younger and a bigger guy than the somewhat undersized Sanders.  Plus Brown at 23 has maybe more upside potential should he develop well. Chung was supposed to anchor the secondary and Merriweather was still around as the likely starter (but apparently just regressed in camp).  So although the Sanders decision probably was a mistake in retrospect, at the time if was made it made a certain amount of sense. 

    Other than that one mistake, though, you can't really say BB has done anything wrong (unless you want to question his drafting of guys like Wheatley and Butler and Wilhite and Merriweather).  What instead stands out is how masterfully BB has coached himself out of the impending disaster that the problems in the secondary seemed to portend. The fact that the Pats in week 15 are the number one seed in AFC is truly an amazing testament to BB's ability as a coach.  While the defense isn't playing well--it is 32nd in the league in yards given up--it is amazing that it's playing at a high enough level to keep the Patriots in games given the fact that guys like Ihedigbo, Arrington, Slater, Edelman, Jones, and now maybe Fuller are starting or playing significant minutes.  

    In some ways, this could be BB's best coaching feat yet . . . but then there are so many great coaching feats to choose from when it comes to BB that it's maybe best not to try to choose one and just stand back in awe at the marvelous coach we're so fortunate to have on our side as New England fans. 




     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    I just posted something about this in the thread on Fuller, but I totally agree with the stuff about Sanders. I still do not know why they got rid of him (especially when the ended up cutting Meriweather a few days later). 

    I know there have been injuries, but it is not like the defensive backfield was playing great when we had our starters (McCourty, Dowling, Barrett, Chung) out there. 

    Add the facts that, Ihedigbo has played hurt all season and Sergio Brown has been a dissappointment (they kept him over Sanders or Meriweather, but do not trust him to start - he has been behind Ihedigbo, Slater, Nate Jones and Sterling Moore on the depth chart), and you get to the point where you are adding guys off the street in week 16 and hoping they can contribute.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mighty2012. Show mighty2012's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    I'd say the secondary is pretty darn good if we're #1 in the AFC.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Good points and I agree mostly.

    Where we disagree is that Barret could have been better than Sanders.

    I always dissed Sanders for being slow, but I wanted him there in case someone went down. He was a steadying force.

    How do you replace a vet like that with a guy who hasnt even played?

    Barret was a big risk as he was always injured and had no NFL experience.

    Going into a season with him as a starter ON purpose was unforgivable ,unless like I think , it was out of B.B. hands and J.K. just didnt want to pay him.

    I am all for youth movement, but going in with Brown and Barret as starters was a BIG mistake, IMO
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Troy Brown was on T.V last night dissing Eric Smith and how bad he was. He said that he would take Slater over E.Smith

    So, consider that J.Idebegho was let go as the 3rd safety and special teamer behind Smith, Leonard.

    We have started a guy most of the year that couldnt even stick with a team that has a safety that is worst than our 5th string WR/S/special teamer?!?!


    This just sais it all for me.


    B.B. is doing a great job, but most these guys dont belong on an NFL field, lets b honest.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

     I know there have been injuries, but it is not like the defensive backfield was playing great when we had our starters (McCourty, Dowling, Barrett, Chung) out there

    Don't think this is a fair statement considering the mentioned starters played a total of 1 1/2 games together.  (if that)
    I don't think BB created the problem as he obviously had a core in mind to start the season.  The dumped players were not part of it.
    Dowling and Barrett being Ir'd is huge, not to mention all the other starters having missed significant games and are still playing with multiple injuries.
    All things being considered, I do think that BB wishes he could take the Sanders one back.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE]I'd say the secondary is pretty darn good if we're #1 in the AFC.
    Posted by mighty2012[/QUOTE]

    How foolish of us all. The fact that we have the best record in the conference means that this teams is perfect and there is no room for improvement. It is not like some #6 seed team could come in here in the second round of the playoffs and expose our weaknesses and knock us out... oh wait, that happened last year? 

    I am psyched to have the number one seed, but after the last two years playoffs games in Foxboro I know that being the higher seed does not mean you win the games.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from gandalf433. Show gandalf433's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE]The   Merriweather is a back-up in Chicago who's really done nothing much at all since going there Page played six games for the Eagles then got cut and has been warming the bench with the Vikings Bodden is still out of football Sanders is a part time starter in Atlanta and having a typical season for him--nothing too fancy, but a lot of solid play  

    Great points. There's a reason these players aren't on the team. I laugh whenever I hear someone wish we still had Merriweather on the team. Thanks for the explanation on Sanders. 

    You are correct, BB caused this mess with his poor picks, and he has taken accountability to clean it up. 

    Do not be surprised if Edelman is given more attention and time on D next year. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dessalines. Show Dessalines's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    I Know this thread is about the players in the defensive back field but for me the thing that stands out is the coaching this year, it's been phenomenal across the board and considering the scrubs and out of position players we are playing in the defensive back field this year's coaching achievement exceeds that of the 2008 season where Brady was out for the season after game one.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB : [QUOTE]The   Merriweather is a back-up in Chicago who's really done nothing much at all since going there Page played six games for the Eagles then got cut and has been warming the bench with the Vikings Bodden is still out of football Sanders is a part time starter in Atlanta and having a typical season for him--nothing too fancy, but a lot of solid play   Great points. There's a reason these players aren't on the team. I laugh whenever I hear someone wish we still had Merriweather on the team. Thanks for the explanation on Sanders.  You are correct, BB caused this mess with his poor picks, and he has taken accountability to clean it up.  Do not be surprised if Edelman is given more attention and time on D next year. 
    Posted by gandalf433[/QUOTE]


    Thats one blessing, that we found a nickel back in Edleman,. took injuries to find that out..
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Grogan77. Show Grogan77's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    The problems with the Pats secondary are can easily be found when looking at there draft picks:  Butler, Wheatley, both second rd busts.  Merriweather now playing in Chicago.  Ras-i Dowling looks to be headed in the same direction as other 2nd rd busts.  McCourtney will hopefully not end up a one year wonder.

    The Pats passing D is the worst in the league, so please don't accuse me of being a whiner or not a Pats fan.

    The fact is the Pats passing D has gotten worst because of poor drafting and FA pickups.  Even if the Pats get to the superbowl this year(thank you Mr. Brady), I still believe Kraft needs to bring in someone to oversee the personnel decisions.  BB is a great coach, but his GM skills leave alot to be desired.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from gmbill. Show gmbill's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    "After all, it was BB who decided to cut Meriweather, Page, Bodden, and Sanders and instead keep Barret, Brown, and Molden.  At the same time, it's BB who was able to recognize potential ability in special team guys like Slater, Edelman, Arrington, and Ihedigbo and coach them up into reasonable, if not great, players at safety and corner." from Prolate

    This is called cutting out the illness/weakness and leaving the good tissue. D has gotten better throughout the year, even with injuries. Either dumb luck or some very cool leadership
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE] Well that question made me decide to go look at what's happened to the guys BB cut: Merriweather is a back-up in Chicago who's really done nothing much at all since going there Page played six games for the Eagles then got cut and has been warming the bench with the Vikings Bodden is still out of football Sanders is a part time starter in Atlanta and having a typical season for him--nothing too fancy, but a lot of solid play When I look at what has happened with these guys, the only possible mistake I can see is cutting Sanders. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    Here is the problem with your statement.  Seriously, do you see any Patriot DB's that could be starters for other teams and having a good season?  I really don't, except DMC.  Just because the players BB got rid of aren't starting or having a good season doesn't mean they are not better then what's currently on the Patriots roster.  I think if Merriweather and Sanders were still Patriots this D would be a bit better, possibly even with Page too.  BB had his reasons to cut them and I'm sure he hasn't 2nd guessed his decisions but from the outside looking in I would say the Patriots would be a bit better on D if they would have kept a few of those guys.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    safety has been a mess... i think the corner situation is going to change every year in this pass happy league. The window for success is a lot shorter. They signed bodden drafted mccourtey and found arrington. wheatley was a 2nd rounder and didnt work out but they liked molden that year too and hes here so thats a wash... willhite was ok but arrington replaced him and butler and didnt work out. too early on dowling  they will certainly look at corner every year....

    saftey...it looks like he went with youth over money this year and that aint worked out so well. Though im sure they care about high picks that dont work out....as those are used resources  for the future...their philosophy and tactics allow then to replenish those resources yearly... so they can just reload the next time through...and they have been good on finding discarded players that fit what they do as well as undrafted fas.  you can be sure we will be drafting a safety next year...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    I am not so sure Arrington is going to the pro bowl although he will probably get in with the picks. He has tailed off as of late, but is still tied for the NFL lead.. The impressive part is that he was supposed to be the third CB (behind McCourty and Dowling to start the season). Arrington would definitely be able to start on other teams when healthy (not every team, but plenty of them). I would put Chung when healthy in the same bought.

    The FS position has been the disaster this year. They cut Sanders which made Chung the FS with Meriweather, and then the cut Meriweather which moved Chung to SS (which is more his position anyhow). That left a hole at FS that they have tried to fill all season. Barrett got hurt, but it is not like the DBs where playing well when he was in. Sergio Brown who they kept over (Sanders and Meriweather) could not hold onto the starting job when he got the shot. Ihedigbo has play okay while injured (although you can count on him rolling around on the ground once per game - I find it is a good time to get a beer), but I do not think he is really the answer.

    I think BB likes special teamers like Edelman and Slater out there because he knows they can tackle in the open field. I have a pet peeve about people calling Slater a converted WR. He was moved to DB after his sophomore year at UCLA and played there his junior and senior years. He only moved back to WR at the combines because scouts told him that gave him the best chance of making an NFL roster.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE]Arrington is going to a Pro Bowl, so yes.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKingII[/QUOTE]
    Agree.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    BB can't control injuries or who is available to play for the Pats when players go down.  I know many have made posts here about certain players being available and why the Pats did not secure them.  Without that "internal" knowledge BB and the Pats have, we presume these players wanted to play for the Pats and the team simply chose not to pursue or do we actually know they did not pursue them at all.  With that said, BB is deserving of another coach of the year since everyone is amazed at how he is coaching up that D and still win. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In retrospect, releasing Sanders seems to be a mistake, but he was due to make $2.8 million and I suspect BB felt that large salary ate up far too much of the salary cap given Sanders back-up role.  I also don't think BB felt Sanders was a long term solution at safety--and Sanders was injured during training camp.  Still, the cut made little sense once Merriweather was cut because there was no longer any clear starter next to Chung.  From what I saw, Page, Barrett, and Brown were all relatively equal--and I trust BB made the right decision on which of the three to cut if he wasn't going to keep all of them.  Cutting both Merriweather and Sanders was a surprise to me.  I wonder whether BB was thinking he'd keep Merriweather when he cut Sanders and then Merriweather did something after the Sanders cut that BB felt required him to be cut.  I don't know that for sure, but it's something I wonder about because cutting the two of them never quite made sense to me. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE]BB can't control injuries or who is available to play for the Pats when players go down.  I know many have made posts here about certain players being available and why the Pats did not secure them.  Without that "internal" knowledge BB and the Pats have, we presume these players wanted to play for the Pats and the team simply chose not to pursue or do we actually know they did not pursue them at all.  With that said, BB is deserving of another coach of the year since everyone is amazed at how he is coaching up that D and still win. 
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]

    He controls who the backups are. He decided that Sergio Brown was a better guy to keep around than James Sanders. I think Jim Harbaugh is your coach of the year if the 49ers hang onto the No. 2 seed in the NFC. That teams was 6-10 last year under Singletary.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Pro, I agree, but I just dont think its always BIll call who gets signed or not.

    They could have easily ripped up Sanders contract if that were the case and give him a one year deal for 1 mill and he would oblige.

    I think Jonathan Kraft dished out the dough and decides who gets paid along with others. In a football life , while J.K., ,R.K. and Caserio talked about Vince being extended , BIll had NO say, just sat there like lets get this over with.

    he may make a reccomendation, but if Robert Kraft doesnt endorse you, you wont be here.

    Could have been Kraft wanting to use that 2 million for something else..
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Makassar. Show Makassar's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    C'mon people.... Gandalf433 said: "You are correct, BB caused this mess with his poor picks, and he has taken accountability to clean it up."  And then Grogan77 added: "BB is a great coach, but his GM skills leave alot to be desired."

    It's a nasty wives tale that BB is a poor GM and has blown draft picks.  While it's true that every oick BB has made isn;t a futuer HOFer ort All-Pro - like most peopel expect - his drafts are better than the competition.  Please refer to this nicely-researched article:

     

    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3749_Decade_in_the_making%3A_the_ultimate_NFL_draft_grades.html

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from msteven. Show msteven's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Amazing how someone will say that BB is a bad GM.  Look at Gronk, Hernandez, Soldier, Vollmer, DMC, Mayo, Cannon, etc.  How many teams have drafted that many starters in the same time period.  Take a look around the league.  Many teams have one hit in a draft.  BB has several.  He has made a few bad picks but so has every other team.  Odds are when you are drafting 12-15 players a year that you are going to miss on a few.  Merriweather was a question mark when he was drafted.  He lived up to the question mark.  Butler had first round written all over him when he came out of college.  Some times the transition from college to pros is too much for a player.  No one can predict injuried.  Ras I, bodden and Barrett all went down.  What are the odds of 3 starters suffering season ending injuries.  Put these three back on the team and now the secondary looks totally different.  FS would still be a question mark but the talent pool would be much stronger to draw from.  The Patriots are on their third starting center and the offense has not missed a beat!  I would call that a good coaching job.  They lose their starting RT and are still winning!  How many teams can have the luxury of a deep roster to lean on.  That is a sign of BB the GM doing his job.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    [QUOTE]Amazing how someone will say that BB is a bad GM.  Look at Gronk, Hernandez, Soldier, Vollmer, DMC, Mayo, Cannon, etc.  How many teams have drafted that many starters in the same time period.  Take a look around the league.  Many teams have one hit in a draft.  BB has several.  He has made a few bad picks but so has every other team. 
    Posted by msteven[/QUOTE]

    Does Cannon start? You cannot count Vollmer AND Solder as starters when they play the same position.

    I think people are too hard on the Pats drafting. For me the frustration comes from the positions that they have tried multiple times and failed. WR and CB (other than McCourty).
     

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