The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnTAlouette. Show JohnTAlouette's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Excellent points made. I like Edelman in the secondary. He can tackle.Wants to hit. Slater, as well. Safeties need to close on the ball, and Slater is improving. As of now, he's a little late, but at least in the tv picture. Some of the safeties have been so out of position they don't even get screen time.
    Offensive players are called "skill players", but the hardest position to fill is cornerback. It requires a lot of tools. Very few good ones in the league. Mc Courty will be back.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB : He controls who the backups are. He decided that Sergio Brown was a better guy to keep around than James Sanders. I think Jim Harbaugh is your coach of the year if the 49ers hang onto the No. 2 seed in the NFC. That teams was 6-10 last year under Singletary.
    Posted by FrnkBnhm

    FrnkBnhm..  read my post again, I did not refer to the control of the personnel ON the team..  I was speaking about who BB could ACQUIRE for the team.  I see your point, besides, this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking at best and what is done is done.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    The problems with the Pats secondary are can easily be found when looking at there draft picks:  Butler, Wheatley, both second rd busts.  Merriweather now playing in Chicago.  Ras-i Dowling looks to be headed in the same direction as other 2nd rd busts.  McCourtney will hopefully not end up a one year wonder. The Pats passing D is the worst in the league, so please don't accuse me of being a whiner or not a Pats fan. The fact is the Pats passing D has gotten worst because of poor drafting and FA pickups.  Even if the Pats get to the superbowl this year(thank you Mr. Brady), I still believe Kraft needs to bring in someone to oversee the personnel decisions.  BB is a great coach, but his GM skills leave alot to be desired.
    Posted by Grogan77



    re:"Even if the Pats get to the superbowl this year(thank you Mr. Brady), I still believe Kraft needs to bring in someone to oversee the personnel decisions.  BB is a great coach, but his GM skills leave alot to be desired."

    thank you for this bit of sanity and i concur.

    we have a top of the league team, we should have a top of the league gm.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from darwk. Show darwk's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Prolate- Great thread and your points are  well supported. Has been a paradox this season. Lousy picks have decimated the quality and skill of the defense as a whole. BB has done a masterful job getting the most out of what he has, and moving the pieces to met the weekly opponent challenge.
    A lot of work moving forward to the next season.

    Do you think McCourty will return to the level he was playing at last year? His lack of game this season has been a real head scratcher. I know he's been injured, but lots of times he's not even in the same time zone in coverage. Pats defense against the run has been uneven at best (exhibit A- Broncos game)-over the season though its  been the pass defense that's allowed opposing teams to exploit the glaring weakness in the D.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from gandalf433. Show gandalf433's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    C'mon people.... Gandalf433 said: "You are correct, BB caused this mess with his poor picks, and he has taken accountability to clean it up."  And then Grogan77 added: "BB is a great coach, but his GM skills leave alot to be desired." It's a nasty wives tale that BB is a poor GM and has blown draft picks.  While it's true that every oick BB has made isn;t a futuer HOFer ort All-Pro - like most peopel expect - his drafts are better than the competition.  Please refer to this nicely-researched article:  

    Hey, if it's up to me, BB remains GM of the Pats for as long as he wants the position. That doesn't mean he can't be criticized for the mess in the Defensive Backfield. He is responsible for the mess and I give him the credit for doing what it takes to manage the DB situation and to get to 11-3 and a possible #1 seed. 

    In Bill we Trust. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    No commentary from Patsfansince 1966?
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    Pro, I agree, but I just dont think its always BIll call who gets signed or not. They could have easily ripped up Sanders contract if that were the case and give him a one year deal for 1 mill and he would oblige. I think Jonathan Kraft dished out the dough and decides who gets paid along with others. In a football life , while J.K., ,R.K. and Caserio talked about Vince being extended , BIll had NO say, just sat there like lets get this over with. he may make a reccomendation, but if Robert Kraft doesnt endorse you, you wont be here. Could have been Kraft wanting to use that 2 million for something else..
    Posted by JayShizzle45



    I'm not totally sure who calls the shots, but I do think you're right they could have restructured Sanders contract--or at least made a go at doing so.  I have a feeling BB didn't think Sanders was a long-term answer at Saftey, though.  My guess, though, is he must have still felt that Merriweather was going to be around when he cut Sanders.  It's odd that he'd change his mind about Merriweather just a week or two later, but that's the only explanation that makes sense to me, because I find it hard to believe BB would have cut both Sanders and Merriweather with no clear back up plan at safety.  Then again, he also let Samuel walk when we didn't have a corner to replace him, so maybe BB is thinking a lot differently than I am when it comes to building a team.  


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from gandalf433. Show gandalf433's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB : The irrationals refuse to look around the league....   Again, the luxury is BB has confidence to seek out what he's looking for and try and try again to find it if need be. 90% of a successful component in this game is getting all the players on each side of the ball to believe and move in one direction. You can't teach character, passion and teamwork.  But, BB has been known to find players that do care about that. "We're not looking for the best players, Craig. We're looking for the right ones." - H. Brooks, 1979
    Posted by RidingWithTheKingII

    RWTK: you hit it out of the ballpark. Well said.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    Do you think McCourty will return to the level he was playing at last year? His lack of game this season has been a real head scratcher. I know he's been injured, but lots of times he's not even in the same time zone in coverage. Pats defense against the run has been uneven at best (exhibit A- Broncos game)-over the season though its  been the pass defense that's allowed opposing teams to exploit the glaring weakness in the D.
    Posted by darwk



    No idea.  What worries me is his trajectory seems a lot like Butler's.  I never thought Butler was as good in his first year as some thought, but I do think he got worse rather than better. McCourty was good last year, but he too has seemed to lose skills rather than gain them.  This worries me, because it makes me wonder whether something is happening that causes these guys to lose confidence.  

    Regardless, though, McCourty still shows flashes of last years' skills, so I'm hoping he'll figure it out.  The main problem, I think, is he's getting beat off the line.  If he's not beat initially, he still can run with receivers and make plays on the ball.  His problem this year seems to be getting beat off the line and not being able to catch up and close on his receivers.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ShiningWizard. Show ShiningWizard's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Typical ball-washing sugar-coated defense of a secondary that is atrocious.  Somehow I doubt you're having this discussion if Brady and the offense isn't ranked among the league's best.   

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Chung is important here and I love him, but he needs help too.

    Not sayin his return would do wonders, but going forward into next year, I would like to pair him with a veteran to work with. I think making Chung the leader of the backfield is a bit too early. He is a mature kid and nothing like Meri, but he hasnt had enough experience yet, IMO to lead back there.


    Typically we take a 1 or 2 to develop safeties, so i feel getting a free agent here would be ideal. Imagine Landry and Chung together. I know most people feel Chung is SS and not built to cover, but I disagree.


    I year ago Chung was asked  to cover slot Wr's all year and faired well. People like to rag on Chungs coverage but we dont know his assignments. I feel his man to man for a safety is as good as it should be.  We have CBs who cant even cover, never mind what Chung cant do.


    Rodney came here as a 9,10 year vet who had seen it all playing with Seau as 2 man wrecking crew.  He was always a wreckless player who played on the edge. Coming here to a precise system that made him play disciplined was just what he needed to take his game to the next level. I dont think we should expect that from a 21 y/o.  This guy is the future, but is still young
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from gandalf433. Show gandalf433's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB : No idea.  What worries me is his trajectory seems a lot like Butler's.  I never thought Butler was as good in his first year as some thought, but I do think he got worse rather than better. McCourty was good last year, but he too has seemed to lose skills rather than gain them.  This worries me, because it makes me wonder whether something is happening that causes these guys to lose confidence.   Regardless, though, McCourty still shows flashes of last years' skills, so I'm hoping he'll figure it out.  The main problem, I think, is he's getting beat off the line.  If he's not beat initially, he still can run with receivers and make plays on the ball.  His problem this year seems to be getting beat off the line and not being able to catch up and close on his receivers.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid

    Call me naive, and I know many of you will! But McCourty has often been in pretty good position this year. He has been burned a few times, but more often than not he has been in almost perfect position. I am still hopeful for McCourty going forward. 

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Congrats to Prolate for identifying the coaching genius of BB and for many other posters who recognized our generally faulted drafting philosophy.

    The decline of McCourty could start with changes in defensive scheme necessitated by the mess in the secondary.  Chemistry is as important as the talent of the pieces and the revolving door of secondary parts is hardly conducive to creating chemistry in the secondary.

    It's a reasonable assumption that BB has been masterful in obtaining maximum return on low budjet substitues for our secondary at the same time that he's also probing opponents vulnerabilities.  One assumes that he emerses himself in film analysis until he recognizes how an opponent can be defeated.  Our 11/3 record validates such an assumption.

    It's also reasonable to assume that BB's efforts as a coach consume most of his waking hours.  How then can we ALSO assume that he has time to scout draft-worthy players too?  These "street bodies" that are shuffled in and out are identified by whom?

    While coaching excellence may be 90% BB isn't also likely that the NFL draft process is largely delegated to the rest of the Patriots support staff?  Is it fair to assume that BB is largely responsible for drafting MISTAKES when other personnel seem 90% more involved in the player evaluation process?

    While BB generally advocates drafting the best player available (my assumption) are we to assume that his trading down supports such an assumption? Or is it more likely that he prioritizes positional needs and willingly sacrifies BAP (best available player) to satisfy team needs?

    What I am suggesting is that our drafting failures are largely reflections of the inadequacies of our complementary scouting personnel who may be devoting too much time to BB type players INSTEAD of identifying the best positional players.

    In our SB years we had great players which reflected a great scouting department and a savy staff to weed-out marginal players.  BB's function then, as now, was merely setting our priorities and veto power over individual selections as  recommended by a                                             knowledgeable  staff.

    Corporate raids on our SB personnel have left the cup of wisdom lacking.  Scar seems to be one easily identifiable exception.
     
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    BB the GM set the table for BB the coach.  If he thought Meriweather, Page, Sanders, Butler, Wheatly, Bodden and Wilhite were better than what he has now, they'd be here.  Well, maybe not Sanders, who made a lot of money for a back up, and Bodden was clearly hurt.

    There has been a lot of turnover in the secondary, for sure.  Injuries and new bodies have led to some poor play, but neither is an excuse.  We can argue stats all we want, but the bottom line is points allowed, red zone D and turnovers.  Those 3 things mean as much or more than yards allowed per game.  The statistical results aren't pretty, but 11-3 is't too shabby either.

    What is this team's upside?  They can beat anybody this year if the offense plays well and if the D can manage to be who they are, a squad that limits points and gets timely turnovers.   

     
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In response to "Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB":
    Typical ball-washing sugar-coated defense of a secondary that is atrocious.  Somehow I doubt you're having this discussion if Brady and the offense isn't ranked among the league's best.    Posted by ShiningWizard
    Have to agree with shiny here. The original post is kind of saying " what's going on here...? And since we're 11-3 it must be "genius ". More like "MAD SCIENTIST" at this point. Not that this is bad, since he is willing to try different groupings seeking the right chemistry. Also it keeps opponents kind of guessing. But if people are still posting about James Sanders , what does that say about your defensive team? Josh "bad angle" Barrett was awful. Ranking the DBs first to last IMO : Arrington, mccourty,Chung, Edelman, ihedbo, and then rest are interchangeable. I thought Adams was good as well as Moore but they got cut ... So in the end I just feel confused by the mad scientist... Having Brady allows for alot of mistakes on D. That's for sure.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    I know I sound like a broken record on the topic of BB and drafting, but at this point I don't care.

    BB does very well at the draft considering that the Patriots have not won fewer than 10 games in a regular season since 2002. That means that they've never had their "assigned" first round pick fall into the Top 20 since the 2003 draft when they were coming off a 9-7 season in '02.

    BB's strategy of trading down, out, and sometimes slightly up does in fact work, because several of those trade downs and trade outs one year have resulted in a much higher pick the following year (the 2007 trade out with SF landed them a Top 10 pick in 2008--Mayo; the 2009 trade out landed them the means to trade up the following year and grab Gronkowski; and the 2010 trade out with Carolina ended up landing them the #33 pick in 2011--Dowling, who looked pretty good before he got injured...we'll see how he turns out I guess).

    I fully acknowledge the "blown" picks like Wheatley, Butler, Chad Jackson, maybe Brace, and a few others. 

    But blown picks happen, and they happen to every team.

    And like King said earlier, to expect that every 3rd round pick is going to come in and turn into Tedy Bruschi (Round 3, 1996) and every 4th round pick will turn into Asante Samuel (Round 4, 2003) is simply insane.

    Your first rounder should be a player, and most of BB's first rounders have been solid hits (most, not all, but I'd say he's above the NFL curve on that).

    Your second rounder, hopefully, will be starting by the end of Year 2, and for all of the "misses" BB has had in the second round in recent years, he's had some hits as well (Gronk, Vollmer at the top of the list, with Chung and Spikes also solid contributors). 

    After the second round your expectations should be much lower--hope the guys picked in Round 3 or later contribute a little their first few seasons, and then maybe by Year 3 or Year 4 they can become starters.

    Like King said, look at other NFL teams and their draft hit-to-miss ratios, then throw in the added handicap that New England is the ONLY team in the NFL to not have a losing season since 2000 (!), and thus haven't had any real high draft picks to work with, and BB's draft record looks a lot better.


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Pretty clear BB has no clue what he's doing. I've always said that SB ring he won was just a fluke... and the other ring he won was a fluke too.... Oh, and the other three rings he won also... plus he got lucky that other time he went to the SB Just keeps getting lucky
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Slater and Edelman are the perfect example of playing in a system. They are out there and doing what they are supposed to do and not over playing or trying to do something they are not supposed to be doing.IMHO those are the reasons there are guys BB lets go because they do all the things that Slater and Edelman don't do that being making mistakes.
    In all the time that BB has been here and let players go there are few that have gone on to be as good or better with other teams.

    There is a system offensively and defensively and if you play it correctly you will be successful.
    I always remember Hank Poteat who was dropped and brought back so many times. Much like Ventrone not big, not fast, not a great player BUT he does what he is supposed to do and makes no mistakes.

    I believe if BB had 5 more WR or RB like Edelman and Slater that he could put them all in as DB's and they would succeed if they played within the system.

    He11 I bet Welker, Woodhead, Ridley and Branch could play DB if asked and do well.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Makassar. Show Makassar's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    Congrats to Prolate for identifying the coaching genius of BB and for many other posters who recognized our generally faulted drafting philosophy.....
    What I am suggesting is that our drafting failures are largely reflections of the inadequacies of our complementary scouting personnel.  Posted by moskk


    Again boys and girls, moskk and other such posters fail to see the bigger picture.  Objective - and detailed - analysis shows the Patriots, collectively, have been the best-drafting team in the NFL the past decade.  I'll repeat that for those of you in back row:  The New England Patriots have been the best-drafting team in the NFL over the last decade. 

    And that analysis does not even consider trading for a Welker and a Moss in exchange for low-round picks.

    Does this mean they have hit every pick, of course not, no team does.  But it means they do a better job of it than anyone else.

    By the way, I too feel their defensive backfield is atrocious.  But blaming it on BBs drafting skills is similar to saying BB can't coach because they've lost 3 games this year.  Everything's relative.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    Jim, good post

    Hank Poteat was a good soldier who did well here.  I here a lot about players when they leave here not doing anything. In some cases, players are just over the hill, but in the case of younger players, cant we make the argument that they werent ever that good to begin with and thus it was a draft failure and/or poor evaluation??

    Its an interesting topic. In contrast to that, B.B. takes players from other teams who arent getting playing time and they end up starting here. I know a lot has to do with the type of player, but doesnt it seem that B.B the G.M. is doing a bad job of picking players for his system?  The ones HE let go never do anything, yet he can take another teams unheralded player and have success.


    I can say in the case of Kyle Arrington it worked out great, but when we have a safety in Idehbo who couldnt even make the jets roster as the 3rd safety with bums like E.Smith there, how is him coming here and starting a positive thing?

    I dont think it is. I think Idebeho has been horrible barring the first couple games he played with chung where I didnt see him getting burnt, but he also wasnt tested either.   We passed on Molden in the draft and struck out with our guys and then we picked up Molden from the Texans.


    Seems to me B.B. is good at taking players from others teams after he has seen them on film in the NFL, but he cant evaluate players on his own coming out of college.


    When NOONE you let go does anything, I think thats more of an endightment than an endorsement and I never understand why people PRAISE B.B. for "KNOWING" when to dump a player. If the guy really s ucked that bad, I question why he was drafted at all, rather then praise B.B. for cutting him. I mean most posters on this board can tell if a player s ucks, so should we praise them for that too?

    This year I could argue he cut some players that are better than what we have now.

    Im not really directing the ?? at you, as you made good points, but I've always wondered about that...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    C'mon people.... Gandalf433 said: "You are correct, BB caused this mess with his poor picks, and he has taken accountability to clean it up."  And then Grogan77 added: "BB is a great coach, but his GM skills leave alot to be desired." It's a nasty wives tale that BB is a poor GM and has blown draft picks.  While it's true that every oick BB has made isn;t a futuer HOFer ort All-Pro - like most peopel expect - his drafts are better than the competition.  Please refer to this nicely-researched article:   http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3749_Decade_in_the_making%3A_the_ultimate_NFL_draft_grades.html
    Posted by Makassar


    You know what really stands out the most about that article? The "worst pick" column for many of the top-ranked teams seemed to feature a lot of picks from the 2006 draft.

    That truly was a bad class with a few gems hidden inside a pile of cow dung.

    I think we need to cut BB a little slack for that draft, which undoubtedly was his worst with the Patriots--it was a bad one for a lot of teams, apparently.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB

    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB:
    In Response to Re: The mess in the secondary--and the genius of BB : You know what really stands out the most about that article? The "worst pick" column for many of the top-ranked teams seemed to feature a lot of picks from the 2006 draft. That truly was a bad class with a few gems hidden inside a pile of cow dung. I think we need to cut BB a little slack for that draft, which undoubtedly was his worst with the Patriots--it was a bad one for a lot of teams, apparently.
    Posted by hardright



    except for the packers, cheifs, ravens, bucs, steelers, panthers, colts, jets and jaguars

    I didnt read it, but did it also mention that New Englands 1st round pick _ Laurence Maroney is the only player from round 1 not in the League anymore??


    Where do you people get this?  I get B.B. is not the worst at drafting, and his ability to get more picks allows him to make more mistakes, but cmon.

    Back to Back Busto's in 06 while everyone else found players.

    How about Greg Jenning over Chad Jackson or D'Angelo Williams over Maroney?


    Here is what everyone else got out the 1st round.

    Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, Vince Young,. Brick, A.J. hawk, Vernon Davis, M.Huff, D.Whitner, E. Sims, J.Cutler, H.Nagata, K.Wimbley, Broderick Bunkley, J.Allen, C. Greenway, T.Hali,

    - now these are the guys that went after Lo-Mo in the first round -  Manny Lawson, D.Joseph(pro bowl guard), J.Joseph, S.Holmes, Mercades Lewis, Nick Mangold and Kelly Jennings and the last player was Mathias Kiwanuke.


    Now you tell me how we are the only team not to find a player in that 1st round that is still in the league. I counted numerous impact players who are still putting in major work and our beloved Lo-Mo is sitting in a St. Louis jail somewhere...

    Come again about the 06 ' draft......lmao!


    Keep reaching guys. I want no other guy here, but please stop jumping in front of buses for a guy and making excuses in the age of the internet...
     
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