Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/23/2012 10:18 PM EDT
- BabeParilli
- Posts: 12277
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : Including you. Yes there's a drop off at QB once Brady is gone, but the article is also based on the fact that all of the teams in the AFC East will improve through smart drafting (have you seen how they've drafted the past couple of years?), while the Pats do nothing to improve. One of the points made in the article is the troubles on defense, do you really think that nothing is being done to improve that unit, didn't BB twice in the first round to grab front 7 guys?
Posted by JB-3
We will be like a bunch of teams after the legend hangs them up. Some good years, some not so good years. SF and GB are two teams that come to mind as not missing a beat when their HOF QB moved on. But that is very rare.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/23/2012 10:30 PM EDT
- FishTaco64
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I agree that the Offense is starting to get old, and I think next year's draft will be crucial for the team once Brady is gone. They need to get a hit or two at the WR position once, so these guys have a few years for Brady to groom them in the offense. Then once Brady is gone, his replacement will have a few guys that know the offense that are still in the prime of their careers. Just like Rodgers had Greg Jennings and Donald Driver when he took over for Favre, and Steve Young had Jerry Rice.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/23/2012 11:06 PM EDT
- NYC
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Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
Well Lenordo you set the world record for the longest post. * sorry Laz you were my personal favorite* Why dont you think Mallet or Hoyer with the blocking Brady gets can't perform? What happened when Drew went down? Everyone said damn our season is over. Then the D stepped up and Brady managed the games and we started winning. If when Brady leaves the game the Pats tank at least it will still be the real Pats fans left here. What the Pats have accomplished is god enough for my lifetime. We should have had 5 SB's but 3 is just fine with me.
Posted by Philskiw1
If the D steps up, we will be ok with Hoyer or Mallet as a game manager. Otherwise, it is too early to tell what we have with them. I like what I see of Hoyer but we don't know how he will hold up with the stresses of leading a team through a full season schedule. Still, I will take him over Matt Simms (Phil's son) who is now competing for a QB spot with the Jets.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/23/2012 11:17 PM EDT
- GadisRKO
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So what else is new? The only case where a HOF QB left a team and that team stayed successful for years after that I can recall is the 49ers who went from Montana to Young. Farve to Rodgers is also a decent transition.
Here is a look at some of the other teams that went through struggles in recent memory after losing their HOF QB. Broncos when Elway retired, 49ers when Young retired, Dolphins when Marino retired, Colts are/will be putrid without Manning for the next few seasons AT LEAST, Aikman retired and the Cowboys have had how many playoff winning seasons? Jim Kelly and the Bills?
So saying Patriots will be worse off later when Brady is gone is pretty much a forgone conclusion, is it not? Just in case, I did not read the article so I have no idea how bad the writer painted the Pats post Brady. Unless Mallet/Hoyer are really good, its pretty obvious we wont be a lock for double digit winning seasons every single year once Brady is done.
So I'll say it again, what else is new?
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/23/2012 11:26 PM EDT
- Philskiw1
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Belichick has managed this team pretty well. Theres usually good depth and talented players. In a salary cap era there will never be perfection but this is pretty good if you ask me.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 11:26 AM EDT
- ATJ
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In the spirit of full disclosure and to save time I have purposely not read any of Babe's posts on this thread because I already know that his position is that life as we know it will end when Brady retires.
I did not read the entire article but I did read enough to know that it is about as substantive as a butterfly f art.
Will there be a drop-off after TB hangs 'em up? More than likely, yes. Seamless transition? Don't think so. Will the team still be successful and competitive? Absolutely. The Krafts and BB are simply too good to allow the departure of one player to spell doom.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 11:57 AM EDT
- tanbass
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Just like when Brady got his shot...NOBODY really knows how good Hoyer or Mallet will be until they are basically thrown to the wolves to see what they can do. Brady took an opportunity and turned it into a HOF career. NOBODY back then knew just how good he would end up being. Same holds true for whoever takes over when Brady retires. I think Mallet has the tools....but does he have the brains and that killer instinct to win?.....only time will tell.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 1:54 PM EDT
- TrueChamp
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If Tom Brady throws the ball more then he ever has before(like last year) we may unfortunately find out sooner then later. it's time to go back to hitting 8-9 players a game in the reception department and utilizing the run/scree/check down/ short game. This is what helped our offense have diversity and it is what helped us win SB's.
We see where our down field passing attack gets us in Sb games.
SB Scoring Regular season ppg Rushing att's in SB
2001 Sb 20 points... 23.2 ppg 25
2003 Sb 32 points 21.8 ppg 35
2004 Sb 24 points 27.3 ppg 28
2007 Sb 14 points 36.8 ppg 15
2011 Sb 17 points. 32.1 ppg 19
Use the run game, win SB's and help Tom Brady extend his career!
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 6:52 PM EDT
- digger0862
- Posts: 4064
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
If Tom Brady throws the ball more then he ever has before(like last year) we may unfortunately find out sooner then later. it's time to go back to hitting 8-9 players a game in the reception department and utilizing the run/scree/check down/ short game. This is what helped our offense have diversity and it is what helped us win SB's. We see where our down field passing attack gets us in Sb games. SB Scoring Regular season ppg Rushing att's in SB 2001 Sb 20 points... 23.2 ppg 25 2003 Sb 32 points 21.8 ppg 35 2004 Sb 24 points 27.3 ppg 28 2007 Sb 14 points 36.8 ppg 15 2011 Sb 17 points. 32.1 ppg 19 Use the run game, win SB's and help Tom Brady extend his career!
Posted by TrueChamp
That's eye-opening TrueChamp. Those stats are hard to argue against. Their SB scoring is inversely proportional to their regular season scoring. Good post.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 7:55 PM EDT
- TrueChamp
- Posts: 4989
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : That's eye-opening TrueChamp. Those stats are hard to argue against. Their SB scoring is inversely proportional to their regular season scoring. Good post.
Posted by digger0862
Thanks Digger, it is disturbing to look at. I just feel we look down field too much and stopped taking what is given. This gets us in trouble in the post season. I get the argument that we feel pressured to score more points because our defense is not what it was, but our defense has been top 10 in ppg allowed almost every year till last year when they dipped to I think 15th which is till respectable.
I think McD will right the ship!!!
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 8:24 PM EDT
- wozzy
- Posts: 7176
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
If Tom Brady throws the ball more then he ever has before(like last year) we may unfortunately find out sooner then later. it's time to go back to hitting 8-9 players a game in the reception department and utilizing the run/scree/check down/ short game. This is what helped our offense have diversity and it is what helped us win SB's. We see where our down field passing attack gets us in Sb games. SB Scoring Regular season ppg Rushing att's in SB 2001 Sb 20 points... 23.2 ppg 25 2003 Sb 32 points 21.8 ppg 35 2004 Sb 24 points 27.3 ppg 28 2007 Sb 14 points 36.8 ppg 15 2011 Sb 17 points. 32.1 ppg 19 Use the run game, win SB's and help Tom Brady extend his career!
Posted by TrueChamp
Good post...
But of course, soon after comes endless, long winded posts filled with circular logic and convoluted stat's that want you to believe that they no longer play this game for points but rather tally score with how many yards an offense gets or defense gives up.
There was a Belichick quote, and I'll be paraphrasing, where he answered a reporter's question about the inordinate amount of yards his D gave up "last time I checked they still keep score in the NFL with points."
I really wish I had a youtube clip of it, apropos...
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 8:25 PM EDT
- portfolio1
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If BB is here the Pats will continue to be a very good team. Sure there will be a clear difference when TB retires. But some of his money will be used on other players - unless we end up with another top 3 franchise QB (in which case we will hear the same BS all over again... this time how BB can not win without a QB. But of course, in this league, no one can win without a QB).
I don't expect SB victories galore after TB retires but I expect a team competative with the teams we have fielded. If I had to bet money on one team it would be the Pats under BB. That doesnt mean they are liely to win it all at any particular time. Just that they are the best place to put your money.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 8:30 PM EDT
- portfolio1
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : We will be like a bunch of teams after the legend hangs them up. Some good years, some not so good years. SF and GB are two teams that come to mind as not missing a beat when their HOF QB moved on. But that is very rare.
Posted by BabeParilli
Yes Babe, this is true. It is very rare to keep that level of team play immediately. But I do expect (1) that the Pats will be very competitive, (2) that given a year or two they will be up there near the top of the league and a real SB contender (3) that BB is in fact himself pretty dog gone rare! and that will translate into a NEW Patriots team with different chemistry and different persona but a top notch team none the less.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 8:37 PM EDT
- portfolio1
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
I agree that the Offense is starting to get old, and I think next year's draft will be crucial for the team once Brady is gone. They need to get a hit or two at the WR position once, so these guys have a few years for Brady to groom them in the offense. Then once Brady is gone, his replacement will have a few guys that know the offense that are still in the prime of their careers. Just like Rodgers had Greg Jennings and Donald Driver when he took over for Favre, and Steve Young had Jerry Rice.
Posted by FishTaco64
FishTaco - the offense is starting to get young, not old! THey replaced their TEs with the best unit ever (and I have been watching for a long time). They have brought in THREE young offensive tackles. They have brought in some younger G/Cs. They have brought in three young RBs. They have reduced some age at WR (more will be needed there in the next year or two). THey have two young QBs on the bench. We don;t know whether either of them is of high enough quality to be the next starter for a SB contender but they have potential and are young.
The O has been getting younger for the last couple of years. TB is the one element that is clearly old age wise though he is playing at a top 1-3 level of QBs in the NFL right now.
I do agree that they will need to add 1-3 younger WRs in the next 1-3 years. Maybe Ebert is one of them, maybe Edelman even! But only time will tell who they bring in. I also do think they will need to add at least one starting G and possibly a C unless Connelly is able to be the man there.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/24/2012 10:46 PM EDT
- JB-3
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : We will be like a bunch of teams after the legend hangs them up. Some good years, some not so good years. SF and GB are two teams that come to mind as not missing a beat when their HOF QB moved on. But that is very rare.
Posted by BabeParilli
That's fair. But you can win a championship without Tom Brady, as long as BB does more to build up the defense, which is something that he has already started doing. Of course we wont know how effective he's been at that for a year or two, but it's safe to say that the effort is there after this draft. If Eli Manning and Big Ben can bring their teams to multiple Super Bowls, there's no reason the Pats can't get there with an above average QB, who's no Tom Brady. Of course, BB would have to find that replacement, but we're talking 2014+ here. If Brady's playing till 2014+, then Mallett isn't the answer because he'll be gone.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 6:01 AM EDT
- BabeParilli
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : That's fair. But you can win a championship without Tom Brady, as long as BB does more to build up the defense, which is something that he has already started doing. Of course we wont know how effective he's been at that for a year or two, but it's safe to say that the effort is there after this draft. If Eli Manning and Big Ben can bring their teams to multiple Super Bowls, there's no reason the Pats can't get there with an above average QB, who's no Tom Brady. Of course, BB would have to find that replacement, but we're talking 2014+ here. If Brady's playing till 2014+, then Mallett isn't the answer because he'll be gone.
Posted by JB-3
Sure, a very good defense with a pretty good QB can win the SB. But if we had the former we would have 3 more Lombardis with Brady.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 6:42 AM EDT
- anonymis
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there's a difference between a SB contender and a middle of the pack team. W/O brady, will they still be a SB contender? Did anyone really think of the SB when Cassel was at the helm?
The patriots will be hard pressed to be SB contenders after Brady leaves; unless they have a d that can keep them in games.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 10:45 AM EDT
- JB-3
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : Sure, a very good defense with a pretty good QB can win the SB. But if we had the former we would have 3 more Lombardis with Brady.
Posted by BabeParilli
I agree. All I'm saying is that the article assumed that the rest of the AFC East did everything right to address all of their shortcomings, so why couldn't that reasoning be used for the Pats as well? Alternatively, could we not assume that the teams will continue addressing their needs as they have in the recent past? In such a case, it seems unlikely that the Jets will rise to the top of the division (just looking at unbiased history), Miami could challenge, but we'll have to wait and see how they draft with lower picks, and then there's the Bills, who are the big wildcard given their recent shift to being big spenders. Does the Mario Williams deal work out? We'll have to wait and see, historically big contracts like that don't work out (Haynesworth), but Mario is a special player (wasn't Haynesworth a special player too?).
Either way, I see the Bills as the biggest challenge over the next couple years in the AFC East, but they will also be limited by a middle of the road QB. If we look at how BB has built around Brady, there are certainly several holes, but just how bad they are remains to be seen following the 2012 draft. The front 7 looks to be much improved, but how much better remains to be seen. 6 of 7 picks used on defense should be enough to tell you that BB is putting a new focus on building up the defense. That he traded up twice in the first round is both exciting and a bit scary, could it mean that his time is coming to an end in NE and he wants to win now?
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 3:15 PM EDT
- BabeParilli
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : I agree. All I'm saying is that the article assumed that the rest of the AFC East did everything right to address all of their shortcomings, so why couldn't that reasoning be used for the Pats as well? Alternatively, could we not assume that the teams will continue addressing their needs as they have in the recent past? In such a case, it seems unlikely that the Jets will rise to the top of the division (just looking at unbiased history), Miami could challenge, but we'll have to wait and see how they draft with lower picks, and then there's the Bills, who are the big wildcard given their recent shift to being big spenders. Does the Mario Williams deal work out? We'll have to wait and see, historically big contracts like that don't work out (Haynesworth), but Mario is a special player (wasn't Haynesworth a special player too?). Either way, I see the Bills as the biggest challenge over the next couple years in the AFC East, but they will also be limited by a middle of the road QB. If we look at how BB has built around Brady, there are certainly several holes, but just how bad they are remains to be seen following the 2012 draft. The front 7 looks to be much improved, but how much better remains to be seen. 6 of 7 picks used on defense should be enough to tell you that BB is putting a new focus on building up the defense. That he traded up twice in the first round is both exciting and a bit scary, could it mean that his time is coming to an end in NE and he wants to win now?
Posted by JB-3
There is no reason to believe the other teams in the division will do consistently better than us once Brady is gone. BB is still the best coach around and even if he is no better as a GM than them he will still be competitive because he gets a lot out of guys other coaches can't.
What will change is the probability of elite success unless BB either finds another Brady or finds a good substitute and builds a ferocious D to go with it.
I think we're close to being on the same page with this.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 4:36 PM EDT
- ATJ
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
there's a difference between a SB contender and a middle of the pack team. W/O brady, will they still be a SB contender? Did anyone really think of the SB when Cassel was at the helm? The patriots will be hard pressed to be SB contenders after Brady leaves; unless they have a d that can keep them in games.
Posted by anonymis
I'm guessing that after Brady leaves the Pats will have better options at QB than Cassel. Few thought SB with Cassel under center but the question wasn't whether the Pats could contend for a SB with Matt Cassel.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 5:20 PM EDT
- goosedaddy
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in about 2 or 3 years, maybe even next year, the pats will trade TB to San Fran for a couple ones. Then you can let Ryan Mallet, for all of you that think he's so talented, take over. He can throw, but its the brain and heart that make great QBs. TB will probably win a SB with them too, atleast they can play defense and he won't have to score everytime he gets the ball
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 5:46 PM EDT
In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
in about 2 or 3 years, maybe even next year, the pats will trade TB to San Fran for a couple ones.Posted by goosedaddy
LOL, NO
Then you can let Ryan Mallet, for all of you that think he's so talented, take over. Posted by goosedaddy
LOL, NO.
Mallet will not inherit the empire
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 6:00 PM EDT
- RallyC
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In Response to
The Patriots After Tom Brady:
Brady is amazing.......in BB's system! a la Matt Cassel!! Who is next in the STAR MAKING MACHINE? As long BB and his possey are in NE, we will ALWAYS be right there!!!! PERIOD!
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 6:08 PM EDT
- BabeParilli
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In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to The Patriots After Tom Brady : Brady is amazing.......in BB's system!!!
Posted by RallyC
So you're saying Brady is merely a system QB? Because if you are, that makes you an imbecile.
BB's "system" doesn't seem to be working so hot on defense. Maybe it's not the miraculous system and you actually have to have good players.
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady
posted at 5/25/2012 6:16 PM EDT
In Response to
Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady:
In Response to Re: The Patriots After Tom Brady : So you're saying Brady is merely a system QB? Because if you are, that makes you an imbecile.Posted by BabeParilli
LOL
