The Pats are 18-4...

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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    They went 18-1 in his first year with the Pats..Not sure about your figures. 
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to The Pats are 18-4...:
    since trading Moss. They were 13-7 with him.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966



    Do you ever get tired of listening to yourself? I would if I were you.
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to The Pats are 18-4...:
    since trading Moss. They were 13-7 with him.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Golly Gee, and I was just going to start a thread to herald the return of Randy Moss for the Pats to go .....ALL THE WAY!

    Have a good one....
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    Random unimportant stat, or are you trying to tell the "bring Moss back" people that the team doesn't need him?  Not sure myself that we don't.  I would love someone fast enough to run coverage off a bit.  It's getting so people are playing us short.  Occasional shots down the field are usually thrown to a receiver with no seperation at all.  Need a burner of some sort to scare people into leaving at least one safety with deep responsibility.  
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to The Pats are 18-4...:
    since trading Moss. They were 13-7 with him.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    how observant...
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    Random unimportant stat, or are you trying to tell the "bring Moss back" people that the team doesn't need him?  Not sure myself that we don't.  I would love someone fast enough to run coverage off a bit.  It's getting so people are playing us short.  Occasional shots down the field are usually thrown to a receiver with no seperation at all.  Need a burner of some sort to scare people into leaving at least one safety with deep responsibility.  
    Posted by Davedsone


    Well Dave I think that's where the divide is. Do we need someone that can give the Pats what Moss use to bring, namely an outside the numbers threat to prevent press coverage at the line, well imo yes of course we do. Do we need Moss or can he even get seperation anymore? I don't think we do, no he can't.

    But, that's beside the point. I haven't seen a Moss thread on here in a bit. I thought it finally had gone away. Why bring it back up again?
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    .  Need a burner of some sort to scare people into leaving at least one safety with deep responsibility.  
    Posted by Davedsone


    The truth
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4... : If that's the case, why are they winning at a higher rate WITHOUT a deep throat?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Read what Dave said and understand what it means.

    A deep threat keeps the safeties back- at least one of them, and allows more play in the middle or better yards gained on run plays
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4... : 10-6 in 2009 + 3-1 in 2010 = 13-7. 14-2 - 3-1 = 11-1 11-1 + 7-3 = 18-4 Capiche?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    What about 2007 When they went 18-1 and 2008 when they were 11-5?  You're randomly discarding those two years for some reason.

    With Moss they were 42-14, since the trade they're 18-5 (including playoffs)
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    2009 was Bradys first year back from the knee injury, he was not 100%. It was also the start of the major rebuilding of the team, with Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, Seymour etc. gone after 2008 (can anyone even name who the TEs were in 2009 without having to look it up?). Those were the reasons for the down year, not Moss.
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    Randy Moss 2011 <> Randy Moss 2007.

    I agree that 2007 Randy Moss would give us a deep threat. I also agree that it's 2011.
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4... : The truth
    Posted by kansaspatriot


    Not sure if we need specifically a burner. Just a general outside numbers receivers that can beat press and force a S out of the middle.

    Whether that be with a large possession WR with decent speed (4.5ish) or a burner (4.3-low 4.4) I'm not sure which would be better. IMO I like the idea of having a larger possession WR with decent speed. Mainly because in the colder months I want someone who can go across the middle too and fight for balls when passing conditions aren't ideal
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    You do realize that is what #85 does, correct?  You have every analyst saying that right now, including Cris Carter a HOF WR, so we know he can do it. They just don't play him. last week it was Price over Ocho and a boatload of spread/shotgun, so he's not on the field. The fact is, our run game, play action, Welker, Branch, Gronk, the O Line, EVERYONE, benefits from the Weis base with someone like Ocho on one of the flanks. I would rotate in Ocho and Hernandez on that left flank and just run plays from under Center.   Each commands single coverage where they absolutely will beat it  It's up to Brady to look somewhere else besides just down the middle expecting Gronk or Welker to break free from man. We've had this same discussion for over a month now.  Only Brady can change this. We've got to stop this Welker/Gronk infatuation because it will be contained in January. Ocho would be a threat if given reps and if he's targeted.  Brady is spoiled by Welker and Gronk. Absolute truth. All NE losses since dealing Moss have been in the base shotgun/spread.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    King Ocho is that type of WR but he does not provide that production that is the difference. I think what we are discussing is replacing Branch as the #2 WR with say a Steve Smith or Malcome Floyd type of WR and moving Branch into that #3 role.

    Lets face it nether Ocho or Price have provided that type of role so far even though they fit the type. I'm hopeful Price falls into that role but I don't think many people have hope for Ocho and considering he is being single covered with no help he does not provide the role we are discussing. Which is a WR you can't press at the line and will have a S leaning towards their side for help over the top. Not completely taking the top off but to move a S more towards the edges and out of the middle to open routes for our TE's and Welker
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4... : 10-6 in 2009 + 3-1 in 2010 = 13-7. 14-2 - 3-1 = 11-1 11-1 + 7-3 = 18-4 Capiche?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Disregarding other years he played with the Pats to make a weak argument. Idiotic? Yep. Try harder.
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    You do realize that is what #85 does, correct?  You have every analyst saying that right now, including Cris Carter a HOF WR, so we know he can do it. They just don't play him. last week it was Price over Ocho and a boatload of spread/shotgun, so he's not on the field. The fact is, our run game, play action, Welker, Branch, Gronk, the O Line, EVERYONE, benefits from the Weis base with someone like Ocho on one of the flanks. I would rotate in Ocho and Hernandez on that left flank and just run plays from under Center.   Each commands single coverage where they absolutely will beat it  It's up to Brady to look somewhere else besides just down the middle expecting Gronk or Welker to break free from man. We've had this same discussion for over a month now.  Only Brady can change this. We've got to stop this Welker/Gronk infatuation because it will be contained in January. Ocho would be a threat if given reps and if he's targeted.  Brady is spoiled by Welker and Gronk. Absolute truth. All NE losses since dealing Moss have been in the base shotgun/spread.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    Are you claiming Chris Carter thinks Ocho can help the team by stretching the field and getting open. You can't be dumb enough to make something like that up can you?
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    You do realize that is what #85 does, correct?  You have every analyst saying that right now, including Cris Carter a HOF WR, so we know he can do it. They just don't play him. last week it was Price over Ocho and a boatload of spread/shotgun, so he's not on the field. The fact is, our run game, play action, Welker, Branch, Gronk, the O Line, EVERYONE, benefits from the Weis base with someone like Ocho on one of the flanks. I would rotate in Ocho and Hernandez on that left flank and just run plays from under Center.   Each commands single coverage where they absolutely will beat it  It's up to Brady to look somewhere else besides just down the middle expecting Gronk or Welker to break free from man. We've had this same discussion for over a month now.  Only Brady can change this. We've got to stop this Welker/Gronk infatuation because it will be contained in January. Ocho would be a threat if given reps and if he's targeted.  Brady is spoiled by Welker and Gronk. Absolute truth. All NE losses since dealing Moss have been in the base shotgun/spread.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    Rusty - now Gronkowski is part of the problem?? - The depths you will plumb to find fault with Tom Brady are mind boggling

    I think there were a couple of instances in the NYG and Jets games where Brady tried to force the ball into Gronk - but in general, the Pats are getting it to him because he is simply the biggest matchup challenge for the opposing team

    I have been saying since the first Jets game this year that the Pats are going to need to switch it up on offense because the Jets gave the league the blueprint in the playoffs on how to slow down the offense - challenge the receivers coming off the line, extra DB's and funnel all the plays to the center of the field - do you see the camera shots from directly behind Brady when they are shown - the center of the field is flooded with defense

    Now - there are many on this site who are saying that the Pats need to establish the run to help the passing game - that may be true of the screen game - but what the Pats really need to do is take more shots down the field - make other teams believe they will do it - that will open up the box and make Welker/Branch more effective - especially with run after catch

    The reason why the O worked so long last year is that teams getting ready to play the Pats had 3+ year of film with the Pats having a legit outside presence in Moss and a willingness to take shots down the field - that forced the D to play farther away from the line - opening the underneath for Welker, screen game and running game

    NYJ in the playoffs changed all that  - they re formulated the strategy and after the first 2 series they did slow the Pats down - the Pats didn't successfully adjust

    The reason that the Pats were strong on O early this year was the lockout interrupted a lot of new game planning that would have gone on normally in the off season

    Look at how every team is playing the Pats now - every single team is playing their backs close to the line - challenging/re routing receivers, and they are flooding the center of field - there is no space for a running game or underneath pass routes

    The Pats game planning has not adjusted - the Pats are well known for tailoring their defensive game plan weekly to the opponent - but they are becoming equally well known for being stangant and slow to change in their offensive game planning

    Now - I am not writing this because I want Moss back - the Pats don't need him - but the Pats are going to have to decide whether they think Ocho or Price can be effective running the deep route and the Pats are going to have to take some shots

    People on this site are willing to say that the Pats should be willing to run ball even when they are getting stuffed because it will set things up later in the game - so to should be willing to go vertical more with the pass game to open things up
     
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    Re: The Pats are 18-4...

    In Response to Re: The Pats are 18-4...:
    They haven't been on the field, dude.  There's only 3 WR slots available in this offense because Hernandez is a 3rd WR.   Ocho isn't playing above Branch or Welker with their knowledge and experience, so I assume you agree there. I am not sure if people understand this.  So, if they're using Hernandez much like a WR, that's Ocho's spot in a traditional offense. You can't blame a guy who turns heads in practice (ocho) for not seeing the field. That's a coaching and deployment issue.  Hate to bring it up again, but this is O'Brien's show as Off. Coordinator. The whole point of bringing in an Ocho is he can get deep in single and be open (we know this), and run the routes well, the same routes Moss wouldn't do here when he didn't command doubles anymore. Ocho in 2011 />Moss in 2011. Future WR moves, I'd like to see them kick the tires on Earl Bennett from Chicago.  I think he would fit nicely.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    Again you missed the point King. The point of finding an outside the numbers WR is to replace Branch eventually. I'm not talking now but in the off-season for me. Of course Ocho and Price don't get on the field, it's because they haven't proved to be more effective then Branch which is the problem in itself.

    Again if Ocho or Price proved better then Hernandez and Branch then I'd argue they deserve to be on the field more but they haven't so they shouldn't get the extra playing time. Though I do believe when we are in command of the game they should get more snaps later in the game, to give them a chance to prove themselves. However, this team could benefit from an outside the numbers WR, I don't think you could argue that point. So, when they get the opportunity (even if it means in the off-season) to get a outside the numbers WR that warrants more playing time then Branch or Hernandez they should get them. That is one way to improve the team and that's all I'm saying.
     
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