The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    I will NOT turn on this team and start with the whole "X stinks, we need to fire someone" thing.  The facts are that the Steelers scored 25 points, 23 of them on Offense.  So, the defense needs work.  The Patriots only scored 17 points, and the defense was about 75 percent responsible for 7 of those.  So, I would have to say both sides are equally culpable, and that further, it was an off game, not some great physical/moral/coaching/GM/philosophical failure.  Let's get a grip, folks.
     
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    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]UD - 

    Do you remember the 2nd SB win vs the Panthers?  The Pats were up by 4 entering the 4th quarter, Delhomme caught fire, and our D was toast for the rest of the game and Brady had no choice but to be Tom Brady and he, as usual, played to the score, matching Carolina score for score squeezing out a high scoring close victory.  Delhomme started to dictate the terms of the game, and Brady played him even, winning it at the end.  Delhomme thru a TD pass to tie the score and in the last 1:04, Brady took his team down to .04 seconds and they kicked a FG to win it.  He was throwing the ball all over the place, and he just out played the other guy just enough to win the game by dictating the terms of the game at the end. Brady was a master at the last second heroics, and that D had some huge letdowns. 

    Magic my friend, that guy had magic!!

    The D also let the Rams back into the game and forced Brady to make that long drive to win it.

    So much for your idea that the Pats D did all the work.  Brady was huge, no matter the situation when the pressure was on the most, he almost always came thru.

    He is a shell of himself now when it comes down to the playoffs, and I still think he is one of the best, and he simply lost the magic, certain other intangibles that made him great, just like Tebow, who has amazing intangibles and if he gets just pretty good tangibles, the mechanics and making the throws consistently, he may be a winner.

    You need both, but Montana and Brady in their prime were not prototype QBs in any way, but they could lead and they could win under the biggest pressures imaginable!
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    Well . . .  I suppose you could look at it from the opposite end of the telescope:

    The Pats got pushed around like the JV team all day yesterday, and yet they still had a chance (albeit, a slim one) to get back in it at the end.

    I suspec we'll look a little better when we see Bitchburgh in the playoffs . . .  if they make it.

    Cool
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Totally agree.  Our offense looked like it had never seen man coverage before.  Where the heck is adjustments in the game.  Big deal we planned for a zone coverage, it wasn't there, switch the plan!!  Not that difficult is it???  And agree as well with the waste of time near the end of the game.  He ran the play clock down to about 2 seconds before snapping it, if he can read a defense so well, what took him so long with those reads???
    Posted by emilycuba33[/QUOTE]

    Man coverage, zone coverage, it wouldn't have mattered. The problem is when it comes down to the Pitt WR/TE group and our DB's, we are out skilled. Scheme can mask the talent gap a bit, but I'll take a superior talented group over scheme anyday, especially when you have a bunch of players (our secondary) that are not that good, nor have played together for any significant time.

    When we face teams with below par or mediocre QBs and receiving groups, it won't see as bad obviously. But againist top tier teams, our weaknesses will be exposed big time, and there is nothing we can do about it unless BB wants to rush 7 or 8 all game long like we did on the last 2 snaps yesterday where Rothlisberger was sacked twice.

    Furthermore, I don't think our offense is anythign special to be honest with you. We have a Welker, and 2 good TE's. outside of that, not much. Teams can commit resources to the short game, and if you take Welker and Gronk out, it's basically end of story. We are desperately missing an Ocho or Price who can step up and spread it a bit. It's beena thorn in our side for some time, like our defensive secondary dating back to 07'.
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]You are misremembering Montana. Great QB, maybe the greatest- but he lost games, he failed on some game winning drives. The 49ers were one and done three years in a row in the playoffs. He was not perfect. Brady was not perfect prior to 2005 either. They were 9-7 in 02, 11-5 in 01 when they won the SB.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]


    Did I ever say they were perfect? No, they won only 3 for Brady and 4 for Montana, but they did them with style, with some awesome last minute drives, both as cool as you can be.

    Of course they lost, but would you take Peyton, Marino, or Favre over them?

    They were still magic, and just doing it 2 times is incredible.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Man coverage, zone coverage, it wouldn't have mattered. The problem is when it comes down to the Pitt WR/TE group and our DB's, we are out skilled. Scheme can mask the talent gap a bit, but I'll take a superior talented group over scheme anyday, especially when you have a bunch of players (our secondary) that are not that good, nor have played together for any significant time. When we face teams with below par or mediocre QBs and receiving groups, it won't see as bad obviously. But againist top tier teams, our weaknesses will be exposed big time, and there is nothing we can do about it unless BB wants to rush 7 or 8 all game long like we did on the last 2 snaps yesterday where Rothlisberger was sacked twice. Furthermore, I don't think our offense is anythign special to be honest with you. We have a Welker, and 2 good TE's. outside of that, not much. Teams can commit resources to the short game, and if you take Welker and Gronk out, it's basically end of story. We are desperately missing an Ocho or Price who can step up and spread it a bit. It's beena thorn in our side for some time, like our defensive secondary dating back to 07'.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    Furthermore, I don't think our offense is anythign special to be honest with you. We have a Welker, and 2 good TE's. outside of that, not much. Teams can commit resources to the short game, and if you take Welker and Gronk out, it's basically end of story. We are desperately missing an Ocho or Price who can step up and spread it a bit. It's beena thorn in our side for some time, like our defensive secondary dating back to 07'. 

    been posting the same for a while.
    also add an all purpose, potential breakaway back. for now we need to make ridley the everydown back ALONG WITH an outside the numbers legit receiver.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : UD6 - when Brady is down like yesterday, he (they) did not dictate the terms of the game which for him is the offense and he said almost those exact same words.  When he is ahead, I agree, but he doesn't have magic in a dogfight and everyone wants a guy who can find ways to win when it seems impossible, and under those circmstances, Brady as a young and one of the greatest QBs ever in most peoples mind being compared to Montana, and in the last 1:30 or so against the Rams in the SB, are you telling me he didn't dictate the terms of the game for the entire 1:30?  He absolutely did and Madden said it at least 4-5 times how he should just kneel down and run the clock out and go to OT. After the 3rd or 4th pass, Madden suddenly started to believe, and at the end of that game, Madden knew he had seen a legend being born.  Brady dictated the way that game was going because of intangibles, and without intangibles, you will just be a guy passing the ball.  Brady is like Bill Russell, doing magical things to win or keep a game close by knowing when to turn it on and never allowing a team to get to far out in front. Not so much anymore, thou vs the Cowboys he showed some promise, but yesterday?  The offense stunk, and left a poor D out way too long, never holding the ball long enough to at least give the D a rest. The Steelers offense in the time/total yds they had the ball was almost exactly the same ratio as the Pats time of possession to total yds.  Both were about 2/1 yards to time with the ball.  The offense showed little yesterday where they could have stayed with the Steelers, the Pats D may have settled down and maybe we walk away with a win.
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

     You people have gone insane. Are you all Jets fans. Sure Brady lost it. Maybe we can give him up and a first round pick and Rex Ryan will let us have Sanchez if he feels sorry for us. Do you people understand how to read stats. UD6 is actually right for the first time ever. Is he actually the last sensible person here. In 2003 the Pats had the best defense in the league. That offense would not make the playoffs with this defense. Brady has gotten better and the defense has gotten much much worse. That is why they do not win superbowls anymore. Even if they get to the playoffs they are not going anywhere if the  defense does not play better. Brady is on pace for 40 touchdown passes this year. He has a qb rating over 100. The Patriots are on pace for the worst pass defense in history, even worse than the 0-16 lions of a few years back. Despite that they are 5-2. Why do you think that is? Brady!!! When the offense struggles it is not always the QB's fault. The Pats offensive line was atrocious yesterday, the running game stunk and there was heavy pressure on the QB all game long yet they were still in it at the end, and I wonder why? Brady is why.
     
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    [QUOTE]PS I don't like Woodhead in that role. I know Slater fumbled, but crap happens.  It'a not like he has a habit of it. He's their best option in that role for now. Either use him or let Price try it. Or Edelman. Where is Edelman, by the way? Start giving him looks. He can make plays when he gets the ball in his hands.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I like Slater in that role.... and agree 100% that even with the fumble he should be number 1.  And I also think it should be Edleman if not Slater...  Woodhead looks like he is about to be blown up out there... I can feel the kicking teams hungry to just blow that little dude up, and you can tell Woodhead is trying to avoid getting lit up more than trying to make a big play.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  

    You people have gone insane. Are you all Jets fans. Sure Brady lost it. Maybe we can give him up and a first round pick and Rex Ryan will let us have Sanchez if he feels sorry for us. Do you people understand how to read stats. UD6 is actually right for the first time ever. Is he actually the last sensible person here. In 2003 the Pats had the best defense in the league. That offense would not make the playoffs with this defense. Brady has gotten better and the defense has gotten much much worse. That is why they do not win superbowls anymore. Even if they get to the playoffs they are not going anywhere if the  defense does not play better. Brady is on pace for 40 touchdown passes this year. He has a qb rating over 100. The Patriots are on pace for the worst pass defense in history, even worse than the 0-16 lions of a few years back. Despite that they are 5-2. Why do you think that is? Brady!!! When the offense struggles it is not always the QB's fault. The Pats offensive line was atrocious yesterday, the running game stunk and there was heavy pressure on the QB all game long yet they were still in it at the end, and I wonder why? Brady is why.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]

    Did you watch the 1st 2 SB wins, in fact all of them.  The offense got the lead into the 4th and the D fell apart and the Rams tied the score with I believe 17 straight points on our great D late.  Then Brady made that incredible last minute drive that Madden was criticizing the team for letting a kid try to score with little time left for a 20-17 win which the D almost lost.

    In 03 the Pats had a 4 point lead going into the 4th and Delhomme caught fire, and the D couldn't stop a flea as the Panthers scored every time they had the ball, scoring, I believe, 18 points in the last Q and Brady stayed with him step for step, having to step up his game when the D once again failed him.  He made a drive w/ 1:04 left to kick a FG w/ 04 seconds left. The final was 32-29 & the D almost completely failed the offense in the 4th but Brady stayed with Delhomme score for score and no panic or letdowns as we see now.

    And in the 3rd SB in 05 the Eagles did make it a game, but Brady kept them out in front, and the team beat up the Eagles and won 24-21 as the D let McNabb creep back into the game, and if Donovan didn't collapse emotionally and physically in the 4th, they could have beat our D.  Brady scored as the Eagles scored to keep the lead.

    Please don't say that D was GREAT.  It was very good, and in the SB it was Brady who had to make plays he rarel makes now a days, hence look at the playoffs in the last 5 years.

    This Brady would not have won those games if they were played exactly the same way today. 

    He lost his magic, and I never said it was all his fault, but the young kid inspired the D to play better, the whole team to play better cause they always knew he could bail THEM out!!!

    He couldn't carry Montana's jock strap at the same age as Montana took a horrible Chief team and won many games late as he always did and got them into the playoffs.  And he was old and hurting and the 9ers let him go essentially for Steve Young, who had great stats, but if he was behind in a game, he couldn't find a win for the life of him.

    Brady was as cold as ice, not just cool!

     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]Has anyone figured out who is responsible for the tight end in the Pats defensive scheme? 
    Posted by jallen1952-formelyJallen3531[/QUOTE]
    You are probably talking about Miller. Usually a linebacker, but when they at times lined up with trip TE's it makes it more difficult. Pitt gave the Pats a taste of their own spread medicine and couldn't stop them. The middle of the field was open all day long and little in terms of adjustments were made. If they did, Ben goes to out routes. Tough to defend.
     
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    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]The source remains the offense: "I don't think we complemented our defense very well," Brady said. "In the first quarter we had an opportunity to answer their score, and you know, we go three-and-out, so there was too many three-and-outs, there's just a poor level of execution all the way around. Individually, we all have to look in the mirror and figure out what we have to do better." Yep. In the wins, they establish a run and use a proper lead back almost exclusively with physicality and an attitude.  When they lose, they don't do this or they barely win like against Dallas 2 weeks ago. How many SB teams win byb scoring 13 points in 57 minutes like against Dallas? Why is Kevin Faulk, at age 35, a lead back when we need to establish a run? Why? If you want to complain about the team, start on offense. Giving up 23 points on the road to Pitt when your D may have given up less if the offense simply wasn't so anemic off a freaking Bye week, is nowhere near as offensive The D shouldn't be bailing out the offense with INTs to be the main reason we move the ball into the opponent's red zone. Poor gameplanning all the way around. It's time to fire O'Brien.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]
    Faulk was their best choice in picking up the blitz and his numbers weren't that bad all things considered. LeBeau's changed look was an issue for the Pats' OL and he only zone blitzed about 30% of the time. Pitt's press man coverage was like white on rice similar to what the Jags did to the Ravens last Monday night. Can't blame the QBs. Pats couldn't match Pitts' intensity and physicality. Steelers looked obsessed. Physical or well strategized defensive schemes are an issue for any QB in this league. I absolutely respect TB's abilities, but he plays my Giants this weekend. Hope to see a great game. 
     
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    [QUOTE]PS I don't like Woodhead in that role. I know Slater fumbled, but crap happens.  It'a not like he has a habit of it. He's their best option in that role for now. Either use him or let Price try it. Or Edelman. Where is Edelman, by the way? Start giving him looks. He can make plays when he gets the ball in his hands.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]
    Released from jail. Ata peeve off Bill.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : 


    UD6 & CCNSD:

                  Did you watch the 1st 2 SB wins, in fact all of them.  The offense got the lead into the 4th and the D fell apart and the Rams tied the score with I believe 17 straight points on our great D late.  Then Brady made that incredible last minute drive that Madden was criticizing the team for letting a kid try to score with little time left for a 20-17 win which the D almost lost. In 03 the Pats had a 4 point lead going into the 4th and Delhomme caught fire, and the D couldn't stop a flea as the Panthers scored every time they had the ball, scoring, I believe, 18 points in the last Q and Brady stayed with him step for step, having to step up his game when the D once again failed him.  He made a drive w/ 1:04 left to kick a FG w/ 04 seconds left. The final was 32-29 & the D almost completely failed the offense in the 4th but Brady stayed with Delhomme score for score and no panic or letdowns as we see now. And in the 3rd SB in 05 the Eagles did make it a game, but Brady kept them out in front, and the team beat up the Eagles and won 24-21 as the D let McNabb creep back into the game, and if Donovan didn't collapse emotionally and physically in the 4th, they could have beat our D.  Brady scored as the Eagles scored to keep the lead. Please don't say that D was GREAT.  It was very good, and in the SB it was Brady who had to make plays he rarel makes now a days, hence look at the playoffs in the last 5 years. This Brady today would not have won those games if they were played exactly the same way today.  He lost his magic, and I never said it was all his fault, but the young kid inspired the D to play better, the whole team to play better cause they always knew he could bail THEM out!!! He couldn't carry Montana's jock strap at the same age Montana was when took a horrible Chiefs team and won many games late down the stretch as he always did and got them into the playoffs.  And he was old and hurting and the 9ers let him go essentially. Steve Young took his place and had better stats, but if he was behind, he couldn't come from behind if his life depended on it. Brady use to be as cold as ice, not just cool!
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Did you watch the 1st 2 SB wins, in fact all of them.  The offense got the lead into the 4th and the D fell apart and the Rams tied the score with I believe 17 straight points on our great D late.  Then Brady made that incredible last minute drive that Madden was criticizing the team for letting a kid try to score with little time left for a 20-17 win which the D almost lost. In 03 the Pats had a 4 point lead going into the 4th and Delhomme caught fire, and the D couldn't stop a flea as the Panthers scored every time they had the ball, scoring, I believe, 18 points in the last Q and Brady stayed with him step for step, having to step up his game when the D once again failed him.  He made a drive w/ 1:04 left to kick a FG w/ 04 seconds left. The final was 32-29 & the D almost completely failed the offense in the 4th but Brady stayed with Delhomme score for score and no panic or letdowns as we see now. And in the 3rd SB in 05 the Eagles did make it a game, but Brady kept them out in front, and the team beat up the Eagles and won 24-21 as the D let McNabb creep back into the game, and if Donovan didn't collapse emotionally and physically in the 4th, they could have beat our D.  Brady scored as the Eagles scored to keep the lead. Please don't say that D was GREAT.  It was very good, and in the SB it was Brady who had to make plays he rarel makes now a days, hence look at the playoffs in the last 5 years. This Brady would not have won those games if they were played exactly the same way today.  He lost his magic, and I never said it was all his fault, but the young kid inspired the D to play better, the whole team to play better cause they always knew he could bail THEM out!!! He couldn't carry Montana's jock strap at the same age as Montana took a horrible Chief team and won many games late as he always did and got them into the playoffs.  And he was old and hurting and the 9ers let him go essentially for Steve Young, who had great stats, but if he was behind in a game, he couldn't find a win for the life of him. Brady was as cold as ice, not just cool!
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

     
     What do you mean the defense was not great in 2003? It was the number 1 ranked scoring defense in the NFL and near the top in yardage also. They had 3 shutouts that season. They allowed 10 or less 3 other times. They had great players all over the place. It was stated by someone else (ZBellino) on another thread that the only Patriot defender currently starting that would start over their 2003 counterpart is Vince Wilfork. The starting nose tackle on that team was no slouch either it was Ted Washington a 4 time pro bowler. Those 2001-2004 Pats were loaded on defense. Bruschi, McGinnest, Seymour, Vrabel, Rodney Harrison (2003 & 2004) and Ty Law while Asante Samuel and Wilfork were on the 2004 squads. I like Mayo but there is no way he starts over Bruschi. Your argument about Delhomme makes no sense. Every defense has bad halves or games. The Ravens and Steelers defenses have had several bad games over the past few years and no one says it's time to clean house. The Steelers outplayed and outcoached the Pats this past week so now you want to get rid of Brady. You can't possibly be a Patriots fan. They are freakin' 5-2 right now. Brady is the best player this franchise has ever had. He is probably the 2nd best QB in the NFL right now and you want to get rid of him because he has lost it.
     About Montana. I still insist he is the best QB I have ever seen but did you even watch the 1993 Chiefs. They had a very good defense, with a great pass rush (Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas) and a decent offense. Montana though only threw for 13 TD's and 2100 yards that year. So you should say that Montana on the Chiefs could not carry the current Brady's jockstrap. 
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :    What do you mean the defense was not great in 2003? It was the number 1 ranked scoring defense in the NFL and near the top in yardage also. They had 3 shutouts that season. They allowed 10 or less 3 other times. They had great players all over the place. It was stated by someone else (ZBellino) on another thread that the only Patriot defender currently starting that would start over their 2003 counterpart is Vince Wilfork. The starting nose tackle on that team was no slouch either it was Ted Washington a 4 time pro bowler. Those 2001-2004 Pats were loaded on defense. Bruschi, McGinnest, Seymour, Vrabel, Rodney Harrison (2003 & 2004) and Ty Law while Asante Samuel and Wilfork were on the 2004 squads. I like Mayo but there is no way he starts over Bruschi. Your argument about Delhomme makes no sense. Every defense has bad halves or games. The Ravens and Steelers defenses have had several bad games over the past few years and no one says it's time to clean house. The Steelers outplayed and outcoached the Pats this past week so now you want to get rid of Brady. You can't possibly be a Patriots fan. They are freakin' 5-2 right now. Brady is the best player this franchise has ever had. He is probably the 2nd best QB in the NFL right now and you want to get rid of him because he has lost it.  About Montana. I still insist he is the best QB I have ever seen but did you even watch the 1993 Chiefs. They had a very good defense, with a great pass rush (Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas) and a decent offense. Montana though only threw for 13 TD's and 2100 yards that year. So you should say that Montana on the Chiefs could not carry the current Brady's jockstrap. 
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]


    First of all I didn't say the D stunk, 2nd, the Pats Defense in the SB era had their moments of not being so great in the SB of all games.

    Read what I wrote again, and don't jump to conclusions.  That Defense stunk as bad as any D in history in the 4th Quarter of the most important game of the year,  SB 38 vs the Panthers.  They gave up 19 points in the 4th as Jake Delhomme made mince meat out of our great D.  Brady had to give his all and he did, and he would not do it today if the same thing happens again unless he finds that old part of him, the cool clutch guy he USE to be. 

    That D also had a 17-3 lead in SB 36 vs the Rams going into the 4th Q and the D gave up 14 straight points forcing that unbelievable drive by TB w/ 1:30 left in the game.

    The Eagles if McNabb didn't choke or get sick or whatever what was happening to him, was giving us a run for our money staying close and our D was a bit suspect going down the stretch.  Brady did what was needed with far better clutch receivers than ours today, and Brady was a far better QB in tight situations back then and now he can't even score in the playoffs.   He gets down by 7 vs the Ravens in 09 1st round and the game was over and everyone knew it.  24-0? At the end of the 1st Q I believe.  It is never just the D when that happens.  The offense has to fight back, take some time off the clock or something and it hasn't since who knows when, and the Ravens kept getting the ball back 3 and out and so of course the D is going to be out there.  I am not saying they had to blame, but the offense did nothing to support it and TB runs that offense.

    So please don't throw dumb stats which have nothing to do with anything.  The SB D in the playoffs had some very rough stretches that this Brady of today would not be able to withstand.  The Brady of the SB era would have fought the Ravens in 09 and at least kept us in the game for a while.  He always looked as if he had a 35 point lead, and now he goes down by 7 early and you can see a passive look on his face behind his intensity.

    I love the guy, and all I am saying is I will take the old/younger Brady over the player he is today. He had magic!

    Todays Brady reminds me of Peyton Manning, and the other Joe Montana.

    Todays Brady won 2 MVPs, Passer Rating, led in TD passes etc, and his offense scored tons of points crushing teams, and that young kid won 3 SBs with some of the most incredible clutch play ever with a great D that had some very scary moments late in the game in all 3 SB wins.
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : First of all I didn't say the D stunk, 2nd, the Pats Defense in the SB era had their moments of not being so great in the SB of all games. Read what I wrote again, and don't jump to conclusions.  That Defense stunk as bad as any D in history in the 4th Quarter of the most important game of the year,  SB 38 vs the Panthers.  They gave up 19 points in the 4th as Jake Delhomme made mince meat out of our great D.  Brady had to give his all and he did, and he would not do it today if the same thing happens again unless he finds that old part of him, the cool clutch guy he USE to be.  That D also had a 17-3 lead in SB 36 vs the Rams going into the 4th Q and the D gave up 14 straight points forcing that unbelievable drive by TB w/ 1:30 left in the game. The Eagles if McNabb didn't choke or get sick or whatever what was happening to him, was giving us a run for our money staying close and our D was a bit suspect going down the stretch.  Brady did what was needed with far better clutch receivers than ours today, and Brady was a far better QB in tight situations back then and now he can't even score in the playoffs.   He gets down by 7 vs the Ravens in 09 1st round and the game was over and everyone knew it.  24-0? At the end of the 1st Q I believe.  It is never just the D when that happens.  The offense has to fight back, take some time off the clock or something and it hasn't since who knows when, and the Ravens kept getting the ball back 3 and out and so of course the D is going to be out there.  I am not saying they had to blame, but the offense did nothing to support it and TB runs that offense. So please don't throw dumb stats which have nothing to do with anything.  The SB D in the playoffs had some very rough stretches that this Brady of today would not be able to withstand.  The Brady of the SB era would have fought the Ravens in 09 and at least kept us in the game for a while.  He always looked as if he had a 35 point lead, and now he goes down by 7 early and you can see a passive look on his face behind his intensity. I love the guy, and all I am saying is I will take the old/younger Brady over the player he is today. He had magic! Todays Brady reminds me of Peyton Manning, and the other Joe Montana. Todays Brady won 2 MVPs, Passer Rating, led in TD passes etc, and his offense scored tons of points crushing teams, and that young kid won 3 SBs with some of the most incredible clutch play ever with a great D that had some very scary moments late in the game in all 3 SB wins.

    I also never said that the 03 SB D had to be rebuilt in any way shape or form.  What are you on?  Look at the game, and you will see that the D choked big time vs the Panthers.  But Brady matched him score for score making it the most exciting 4th Q in SB history maybe. Brady would not let that dude beat him, and there wasn't a worry of any kind on his face.  He was just so cool, so Montana like
    and now he just doesn't have that gift being expressed.  Just watch the offense come out of the huddle in tight situations now and them watch those tight SBs and watch Brady come out of the huddle with his team so in sync as they approach the line of scrimmage.

    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

     The defense in 2001 played a great game against what many considered the greatest offense of all time. The Patriots offense struggled to move the ball for much of that game. The Pats got 3 turnovers on defense which allowed the Pats to build up that 17-3 lead. You are the first person I have ever heard criticize the Pats defense in that super bowl at the time it was considered one of the greatest defensive performances in Super Bowl and Nfl history.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : I like Slater in that role.... and agree 100% that even with the fumble he should be number 1.  And I also think it should be Edleman if not Slater...  Woodhead looks like he is about to be blown up out there... I can feel the kicking teams hungry to just blow that little dude up, and you can tell Woodhead is trying to avoid getting lit up more than trying to make a big play.
    Posted by Getzo[/QUOTE]


    i agree on slater. with slater's speed, the other side as less margin for error. slater has the ability to make them pay big.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : But it still let them back in the game.  The Pats in 07 were considered the greatest offense in history, and they completely stunk in the SB and choke?  The biggest choke ever and the D played its heart out and kept them in the game, and then got blamed for the loss.  The 01 D let the Rams get back into the game, and I promise you that if the Rams got ball in the OT and kicked the FG, everyone here would have crucified them!! And you know this.  As great as they supposedly played, the didn't make the plays late in the game. You are making no sense whatsoever.  
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]


     Fine, if you think the Pats defense was bad in the 2002 super bowl than there is nothing we will ever agree on. That was considered one of the greatest defensive games in super bowl history and probably Belichek's greatest game as a Patriot's coach against what was considered by many the greatest offense of all time. The Pats defense was exhausted in the 4th quarter. They were playing the "fastest show on turf" and held the Rams to 3 points after 3 quarters while losing the time of posession battle. Will you at least admit that Brady now is better than Montana was when he was a Chief because I already showed you his 93 stats. In 1994 Montana and the Chiefs went 9-7 and Montana had only 16 td passes and 9 INT's and only 3300 yards passing and then lost in the first round of the playoffs.
     As much as I love Montana people forget that Montana stunk in the 1987playoffs when the 13-2 (#1 seeded) 49ers lost to the 8-7 wild card Vikings 36-24 and Montana was 12-26 109 yards and 0 tds. This was a team with Rice, Taylor, Craig, Rathman and Dwight Clark on offense. So even the best players and teams can have a bad day. Steve Young had to relieve Montana that day and led the 49ers to a couple of second half touchdowns. There was talk that Montana was getting old and that he got hurt too easily and that Young was the future and maybe the future should start sooner than later. The 49ers did not panic. With Montana starting the next year they won the super bowl after going only 10-6 in the regular season.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    ccnsd, they still let the Rams completely back into the game late in the game, what do you want me to say. Yes it was a great D, and it still couldn't protect the lead late in the SB, then 2 years later vs the Panthers, we have a 4 point lead going into the 4th when Delhomme caught fire, and the D was completely paralyzed the rest of the game, and once again Brady had to make amazing plays to keep them in the game and win w/ 4 seconds left.

    Just cause a D is great, doesn't mean it won't make mistakes.  The Rams took over that game late to tie it in the 4th Q, and the Panther game was a shootout, the best offensive show late in a game in SB history by two team, and it was our D that let them back into the game.

    I don't get so many of you.  Just because you have great stats during the regular season doesn't mean you aren't going to ckoke in the SB.  Twice they did in 3 tries and Brady had to bail them out, and the D could have been had in the last SB vs the Eagles if McNabb didn't choke or get sick.  Brady kept the lead.  He WAS that kind of QB, but no more. This D is not good and Brady seemed lost after the steelers scored on the opening drive.

    This offense does choke in the playoffs, and we shall see in the future.

    Stats are for losers, and it doesn't matter how many points, yards, tackles or any thing else you get, but it does matter when you do it.  That was the young Tom Brady.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    I

    n Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : But it still let them back in the game.  The Pats in 07 were considered the greatest offense in history, and they completely stunk in the SB and choke?  The biggest choke ever and the D played its heart out and kept them in the game, and then got blamed for the loss.  The 01 D let the Rams get back into the game, and I promise you that if the Rams got ball in the OT and kicked the FG, everyone here would have crucified them!! And you know this.  As great as they supposedly played, the didn't make the plays late in the game. You are making no sense whatsoever.  
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]


      When did I ever blame the 2007 super bowl loss on the defense. I thought the defense plyed extremely well until that final drive when it dropped 2 interceptions and allowed Manning to complete a hail mary pass to Tyree. I have always blamed that loss on Belichek and the offensive line (aka :the offense). Despite having three pro bowlers on it the Pats offensive line got completely manhandled that whole game. Not even the Ravens defense was able to pressure Brady like that. The coaching staff did not accept what was obvious to everyone else until the 4th quarter when they decided to dink and dunk it down the field with mostly Welker for a touchdown late in the game to temporarily regain the lead. The head coach said no to a long field goal in the first half and had the Patriots go for it on 4th and 10. Brady, for some unknown reason decided to throw the ball away instead of taking a sack. He should have at least thrown it towards Moss and given him a chance to out jump his coverage. That 3 points might have come in handy late in the game, dont you think?
     The 2007 pats had a great offense but I do not consider it the greatest ever. It's running game was rather mediocre with Maroney. The 2001 Rams had a great running attack with Marshall Faulk to go along with Warner. The Pats though were ruthless on offense in 2007 absolutely refusing to take their foot of the gas for 60 minutes. I also prefer the 2004 Pats offense with Dillon because it could pass and run the ball. When the weather got bad as 2007 went on the offense was not as effective because it could not always run the ball. They still won because Brady had the best QB season ever. The 2007 Pats defense was still good though rather old. It had one glaring weakness. It was one of the worst red zone defenses in the NFL that year. I don't know it's final % but at one point in the season it was dead last in red zone defense. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE] The defense in 2001 played a great game against what many considered the greatest offense of all time. The Patriots offense struggled to move the ball for much of that game. The Pats got 3 turnovers on defense which allowed the Pats to build up that 17-3 lead. You are the first person I have ever heard criticize the Pats defense in that super bowl at the time it was considered one of the greatest defensive performances in Super Bowl and Nfl history.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]

    But it still let them back in the game.  The Pats in 07 were considered the greatest offense in history, and they completely stunk in the SB and choke?  The biggest choke ever and the D played its heart out and kept them in the game, and then got blamed for the loss.  The 01 D let the Rams get back into the game, and I promise you that if the Rams got ball in the OT and kicked the FG, everyone here would have crucified them!!

    And you know this.  As great as they supposedly played, the didn't make the plays late in the game.

    You are making no sense whatsoever.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Absolutely, and BB's game plan was legendary......but in the end it couldn't hold up could it? As Madden was suggesting this 2nd year back up Qb Tom Brady take a knee and play for a tie, he went down the field like nothing and won the game. Defense was more important back then, and I wish it were still but it is what it is. If we will win a SB, it will be on the offense's shoulders. The defense has to just be good enough. We have the best QB to maybe ever play the game, we need to help him utilize all of his weapons. This team is now built around Brady and the offense. The SB teams were built around the defense.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

     Are you even reading Quasi's posts. He said that Brady now could not carry Joe Montana's jock strap from when he played as a Chief. If you think the Pats problem is Brady than fine we can agree to disagree. If you think the 93-94 Montana would lead this Pats team to a super bowl fine, we will once again agree to disagree. I never said I prefer this Pats team to the 2001-2004 Pats team. The diferrence is not that Brady got worse but the defense got worse. We went from the #1 defense in the Nfl in 2003 with Bruschi, Mcginnest, Seymour, Vrabel, Harrison and Ty Law to what we have now. Under Quasi's premise (if you bother to read all his posts) is that the 2001-2003 Brady would have won the super bowl last year with that defense which is ridiculous in my opinion. I would argue the 2007 -2010 Patriots would have won at least 2 super bowls with those defenses because Brady is so much better now (it would not matter anyways because he would not need to be).
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : First of all I didn't say the D stunk, 2nd, the Pats Defense in the SB era had their moments of not being so great in the SB of all games. Read what I wrote again, and don't jump to conclusions.  That Defense stunk as bad as any D in history in the 4th Quarter of the most important game of the year,  SB 38 vs the Panthers.  They gave up 19 points in the 4th as Jake Delhomme made mince meat out of our great D.  Brady had to give his all and he did, and he would not do it today if the same thing happens again unless he finds that old part of him, the cool clutch guy he USE to be.  That D also had a 17-3 lead in SB 36 vs the Rams going into the 4th Q and the D gave up 14 straight points forcing that unbelievable drive by TB w/ 1:30 left in the game. The Eagles if McNabb didn't choke or get sick or whatever what was happening to him, was giving us a run for our money staying close and our D was a bit suspect going down the stretch.  Brady did what was needed with far better clutch receivers than ours today, and Brady was a far better QB in tight situations back then and now he can't even score in the playoffs.   He gets down by 7 vs the Ravens in 09 1st round and the game was over and everyone knew it.  24-0? At the end of the 1st Q I believe.  It is never just the D when that happens.  The offense has to fight back, take some time off the clock or something and it hasn't since who knows when, and the Ravens kept getting the ball back 3 and out and so of course the D is going to be out there.  I am not saying they had to blame, but the offense did nothing to support it and TB runs that offense. So please don't throw dumb stats which have nothing to do with anything.  The SB D in the playoffs had some very rough stretches that this Brady of today would not be able to withstand.  The Brady of the SB era would have fought the Ravens in 09 and at least kept us in the game for a while.  He always looked as if he had a 35 point lead, and now he goes down by 7 early and you can see a passive look on his face behind his intensity. I love the guy, and all I am saying is I will take the old/younger Brady over the player he is today. He had magic! Todays Brady reminds me of Peyton Manning, and the other Joe Montana. Todays Brady won 2 MVPs, Passer Rating, led in TD passes etc, and his offense scored tons of points crushing teams, and that young kid won 3 SBs with some of the most incredible clutch play ever with a great D that had some very scary moments late in the game in all 3 SB wins.
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

    This is a great post and great response. Our defense actually had trouble in the 4rth qtr of every SB we were in. Brady led us to the points we needed to win in each of them.

    Personally I don't agree with you that Brady couldn't lead us to comeback wins like the old days. I really think that great coaching helps great players play better. Brady has not had great offensive coaching since Charlie left for Notre Dame. 

    Brady is a better QB then he was then, but without a coach telling him valuable information that only a coach could  know, then this offense will not be able to play to potential.

    Lately when we miss great offensive coaching the most, is in the biggest games of the season, and are playing the best defensive co.'s. We have been out coached defensively in each of our past 3 playoff games, and I think this is the biggest hole in our system, not drafting, not FA pick ups, and certainly not Tom Brady.

    I believe as Rich Gannon was just commenting on a few days back, that since the days of Josh MCD in the 07 SB we abandon one half of the offense at the earliest signs of trouble. This being the run game.

    We have been doing this consistently since the passing assault Brady put on. Unfortunately it has made our offense one dimensional, and let teams develop a way to limit us. They do it by cheating toward the pass and hoping that we don't wise up......we don't.

    I think we both agree we want the offense of old, unpredictable and plays the game close to the vest. Offense and defense compliment each other, and right now that is not happening.

    So I guess in a way I am agreeing with you, that this offense has not been clutch like the offense of old, but I blame it more on a lack of coaching and game planning, then a lack of Brady's skills. 

    Anyway, I thought you had some good observations, and the guy you were talking to was off.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  Fine, if you think the Pats defense was bad in the 2002 super bowl than there is nothing we will ever agree on. That was considered one of the greatest defensive games in super bowl history and probably Belichek's greatest game as a Patriot's coach against what was considered by many the greatest offense of all time. The Pats defense was exhausted in the 4th quarter. They were playing the "fastest show on turf" and held the Rams to 3 points after 3 quarters while losing the time of posession battle. Will you at least admit that Brady now is better than Montana was when he was a Chief because I already showed you his 93 stats. In 1994 Montana and the Chiefs went 9-7 and Montana had only 16 td passes and 9 INT's and only 3300 yards passing and the lost in the first round in the playoffs.  As much as I love Montana people forget that Montana stunk in the 1987playoffs when the 13-2 (#1 seeded) 49ers lost to the 8-7 wild card Vikings 36-24 and Montana was 12-26 109 yards and 0 tds. This was a team with Rice, Taylor, Craig, Rathman and Dwight Clark on offense. So even the best players and teams can have a bad day. Steve Young had to relieve Montana that day and led the 49ers to a couple of second half touchdowns. There was talk that Montana was getting old and that he got hurt too easily and that Young was the future and maybe the future should start sooner than later. The 49ers did not panic. With Montana starting the next year they won the super bowl after going only 10-6 in the regular season.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]

    Absolutely, and BB's game plan was legendary......but in the end it couldn't hold up could it? As Madden was suggesting this 2nd year back up Qb Tom Brady take a knee and play for a tie, he went down the field like nothing and won the game.

    Defense was more important back then, and I wish it were still but it is what it is. If we will win a SB, it will be on the offense's shoulders. The defense has to just be good enough. We have the best QB to maybe ever play the game, we need to help him utilize all of his weapons.

    This team is now built around Brady and the offense. The SB teams were built around the defense.
     

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