The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Absolutely, and BB's game plan was legendary......but in the end it couldn't hold up could it? As Madden was suggesting this 2nd year back up Qb Tom Brady take a knee and play for a tie, he went down the field like nothing and won the game. Defense was more important back then, and I wish it were still but it is what it is. If we will win a SB, it will be on the offense's shoulders. The defense has to just be good enough. We have the best QB to maybe ever play the game, we need to help him utilize all of his weapons. This team is now built around Brady and the offense. The SB teams were built around the defense.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

     Defenses were not more important back then or did you not watch the game against the steelers or the playoff game against the Jets last year. The statistical numbers that determine the top defenses have changed but not the idea that it is somehow less important to have a good defense. The Ravens are competetive year in and year out because of their defense. The Steelers, unlike the Ravens continue to go to super bowls because they combine a very good defense with a very good offense. Give Roethlisberger our defense and the Steelers would not have gone to the super bowl last year. Rex Ryan might have very well won the super bowl last year and we would have to read about it on these boards forever.
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    Until this organization is willing to spend serious money on linebackers and a defensive backfield this team is going to be what it is:

    High scoring (this offense is more than good enough to win a SB) with a sketchy defense that can't stop elite teams--that will do what the Steelers did: control time of possession, tire out the porous defense.

    Pat will beat up on poor teams. But they're pretenders with this defense. And after this many years of trying to hide the same deficiencies It's time to get off the Bill Bellicek Defensive Genius bandwagon. He was that. No more. How many drafts have gone by and we stil have a flawed defense. This has become tedious.

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  
    I have to redo this one because my reply to your post showed up well before your reply.
     Are you even reading Quasi's posts. He said that Brady now could not carry Joe Montana's jock strap from when he played as a Chief. If you think the Pats problem is Brady than fine we can agree to disagree. If you think the 93-94 Montana would lead this Pats team to a super bowl fine, we will once again agree to disagree. I never said I prefer this Pats team to the 2001-2004 Pats team. The diferrence is not that Brady got worse but the defense got worse. We went from the #1 defense in the Nfl in 2003 with Bruschi, Mcginnest, Seymour, Vrabel, Harrison and Ty Law to what we have now. Under Quasi's premise (if you bother to read all his posts) is that the 2001-2003 Brady would have won the super bowl last year with that defense which is ridiculous in my opinion. I would argue the 2007 -2010 Patriots would have won at least 2 super bowls with those defenses because Brady is so much better now (it would not matter anyways because he would not need to be).
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    CCNSD - I am saying that Brady could essentially score at will back then when he needed to, and yes the SB  Brady would have beaten the Jets last year simply because the young Brady would have let that early pic go and he would have scored when he NEEDED to, where todays Brady gets all caught up in not being 21 points in front.

    The young Brady would have moved the ball vs the Jets.  He came out of the huddle knowing what needed to get done and didn't choke.  Because the Steelers scored 1st last week, TB came out like he was behind and a bit concerned, where the young kid came out no matter the score and kept himself and his team in the game.

    How can you not see this, and also thefact that the SB D played lousy in the 4th Quarter in the 1st 2 SBs and in the 3rd they played better, but the Eagles could have won that game if the QB didn't stress out, so please stop with the stats.

    And Montana was far superior at the same age, because he took a far inferior team in the Chiefs, overall, and got them to play great football.  He was a beat up old pro, but that team knew their QB was going to give them a great chance to win any game seeing he was always able to come back from deficits, and coming back from deficits was Brady and Montana's gift and it is THE reason they were both compared as the best ever because at the most crucial times, they would do something to get their team a win when the pressure was on in the most important games of the year.

    This TB has lost his touch, being more like Peyton than Montana, and that my friend is why Brady is like Peyton, both being stat guys till the playoffs and then their great offense can't score when it matters most!!
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  Fine, if you think the Pats defense was bad in the 2002 super bowl than there is nothing we will ever agree on. That was considered one of the greatest defensive games in super bowl history and probably Belichek's greatest game as a Patriot's coach against what was considered by many the greatest offense of all time. The Pats defense was exhausted in the 4th quarter. They were playing the "fastest show on turf" and held the Rams to 3 points after 3 quarters while losing the time of posession battle. Will you at least admit that Brady now is better than Montana was when he was a Chief because I already showed you his 93 stats. In 1994 Montana and the Chiefs went 9-7 and Montana had only 16 td passes and 9 INT's and only 3300 yards passing and then lost in the first round of the playoffs.  As much as I love Montana people forget that Montana stunk in the 1987playoffs when the 13-2 (#1 seeded) 49ers lost to the 8-7 wild card Vikings 36-24 and Montana was 12-26 109 yards and 0 tds. This was a team with Rice, Taylor, Craig, Rathman and Dwight Clark on offense. So even the best players and teams can have a bad day. Steve Young had to relieve Montana that day and led the 49ers to a couple of second half touchdowns. There was talk that Montana was getting old and that he got hurt too easily and that Young was the future and maybe the future should start sooner than later. The 49ers did not panic. With Montana starting the next year they won the super bowl after going only 10-6 in the regular season.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]

    Montana took a horrible team and got them to the playoffs winning many games in the late part of the game.  And stats mean nothing!!  Marino had the best, Favre and Manning were close behind and they won 2 SBs total.

    Montana never was a great stat machine, and he rarely thru for more than 300 yards, and neither did the young Brady.

    Will 'you' at least except that when Brady is behind in the last 5 years, he rarely takes his team back to victory, and he loses his edge?

     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  Fine, if you think the Pats defense was bad in the 2002 super bowl than there is nothing we will ever agree on. That was considered one of the greatest defensive games in super bowl history and probably Belichek's greatest game as a Patriot's coach against what was considered by many the greatest offense of all time. The Pats defense was exhausted in the 4th quarter. They were playing the "fastest show on turf" and held the Rams to 3 points after 3 quarters while losing the time of posession battle. Will you at least admit that Brady now is better than Montana was when he was a Chief because I already showed you his 93 stats. In 1994 Montana and the Chiefs went 9-7 and Montana had only 16 td passes and 9 INT's and only 3300 yards passing and then lost in the first round of the playoffs.  As much as I love Montana people forget that Montana stunk in the 1987playoffs when the 13-2 (#1 seeded) 49ers lost to the 8-7 wild card Vikings 36-24 and Montana was 12-26 109 yards and 0 tds. This was a team with Rice, Taylor, Craig, Rathman and Dwight Clark on offense. So even the best players and teams can have a bad day. Steve Young had to relieve Montana that day and led the 49ers to a couple of second half touchdowns. There was talk that Montana was getting old and that he got hurt too easily and that Young was the future and maybe the future should start sooner than later. The 49ers did not panic. With Montana starting the next year they won the super bowl after going only 10-6 in the regular season.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]


    CCSND - Montana won 4 SBs leading 2 of then with great last second drives for TDs, so please don't speak of ONE choked game.  No one has won more SBs than him, w/ only Bradshaw his equal, and this guy could pass the ball, and he had to in his last 2 SB wins.
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    [QUOTE]Fans around here have been so into kicking butt, being up by 35-0 before halftime, and they fail to see where this has killed this organization, and more important, it has taken the life out of our once - one of the greatest, or maybe the greatest QBs ever!! - He was once compared to Joe Montana as the best ever, not because of Stats.  Montana usually threw 250-300 yds, and he ran a very conservative blend of running/passing, but his team was always in the game.  He dictated the "terms" of the game whether ahead or behind, and you always knew you would have an excellent chance of being in the game and winning it at the very end. Our own TB was the same way.  If the Steelers scored 1st, he would come right back at them and score, and if he was up by 10 in the 1st Q he may not score another point till the second half when the Steelers or whoever, cut the lead to 7 or 3 points, and then on the next set of downs he would come out of the huddle, and you could tell how the team came out that TB was ready and they all followed suit, and march down the field to score.  He played to the score, keeping the team in the game, and then the final 2 minutes and wow; how many games he won in that last second. Yesterday TB said after the game that they got behind and never "dictated the terms of the game".  That was huge!!  The young pre Moss/Welker QB always dictated the game behind or out in front! Brady has lost that most important intangible; the one that keeps himself and his team in the game for 60 minutes.  When he came out down 7-0 yesterday, you could see the energy of the team, and it wasn't like it is at being up 7-0 as they usually are, where the SB era Pats came out like they were in full charge, and that was Brady's confidence in ALL situations where he needed to jack up his play with team coming out of the huddle full of confidence!  When he came in for Bledsoe's injury in 01 and sparked this team, and it was a team going nowhere, they all rallied behind him the way he rallied the team from all kinds of deficits.  The team knew it had a chance to win every game, and a true star was born ala Bill Russell!! We need that part of you to come back my friend!  Without that, this team is going nowhere.  When you play like it doesn't matter what the score is, and we are going to win this thing, the whole team rises to your level, offense and defense. Is it all your fault?  Hell no, but your leadership back then was unparalled, and all of us would trade all your BS stats for a great team leader who never shrugged at a deficit that he couldn't "dictate the terms of the game to". As our own great Bill Russell would say: It isn't how many rebounds you get, but when you get them!  and that my friend is what we need from you right now and nothing less will suffice!
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]


    That's a lot of words to say "I'm stupid"
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : This is a great post and great response. Our defense actually had trouble in the 4rth qtr of every SB we were in. Brady led us to the points we needed to win in each of them. Personally I don't agree with you that Brady couldn't lead us to comeback wins like the old days. I really think that great coaching helps great players play better. Brady has not had great offensive coaching since Charlie left for Notre Dame.  Brady is a better QB then he was then, but without a coach telling him valuable information that only a coach could  know, then this offense will not be able to play to potential. Lately when we miss great offensive coaching the most, is in the biggest games of the season, and are playing the best defensive co.'s. We have been out coached defensively in each of our past 3 playoff games, and I think this is the biggest hole in our system, not drafting, not FA pick ups, and certainly not Tom Brady. I believe as Rich Gannon was just commenting on a few days back, that since the days of Josh MCD in the 07 SB we abandon one half of the offense at the earliest signs of trouble. This being the run game. We have been doing this consistently since the passing assault Brady put on. Unfortunately it has made our offense one dimensional, and let teams develop a way to limit us. They do it by cheating toward the pass and hoping that we don't wise up......we don't. I think we both agree we want the offense of old, unpredictable and plays the game close to the vest. Offense and defense compliment each other, and right now that is not happening. So I guess in a way I am agreeing with you, that this offense has not been clutch like the offense of old, but I blame it more on a lack of coaching and game planning, then a lack of Brady's skills.  Anyway, I thought you had some good observations, and the guy you were talking to was off.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]


    Thanks True Champ - I agree this team is to one dimensional, yet I think because the offense has kept the team way out in front, particularly in 07, that the team got lazy; our O line in the SB vs the Giants, a real travesty. and our 35-0 halftime leads were all of a sudden 42-24 in the early 4th Q as the D also got lazy.

    I still feel Brady comes out when he is behind and never seems confident about moving the ball.  I think the old Brady was so innocent, and had absolutely no stress on himself, where this one never seems comfortable unless the machine is out scoring, and up big.

    I knew from day one w/ Moss/Welker that this offense wouldn't work in the playoff, being to much wide open stuff like Peytons Colts; hence the Pats 2 losses with superstar WR averaged 14 points, and the D gets blamed, and Manning in his career, his 10 or 11 losses had an offense averaging 13 points a loss.  Either way we agree there is something really wrong with this offense since 07, and it really needs to change.

    It's funny, the Cowboy game, we made tons of mistakes, but the whole team stayed together and pulled out the game, and that was one of only a few 4th Q comebacks for Brady in these past 5 years when he really needed one, like in the playoffs.

     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  Fine, if you think the Pats defense was bad in the 2002 super bowl than there is nothing we will ever agree on. That was considered one of the greatest defensive games in super bowl history and probably Belichek's greatest game as a Patriot's coach against what was considered by many the greatest offense of all time. The Pats defense was exhausted in the 4th quarter. They were playing the "fastest show on turf" and held the Rams to 3 points after 3 quarters while losing the time of posession battle. Will you at least admit that Brady now is better than Montana was when he was a Chief because I already showed you his 93 stats. In 1994 Montana and the Chiefs went 9-7 and Montana had only 16 td passes and 9 INT's and only 3300 yards passing and then lost in the first round of the playoffs.  As much as I love Montana people forget that Montana stunk in the 1987playoffs when the 13-2 (#1 seeded) 49ers lost to the 8-7 wild card Vikings 36-24 and Montana was 12-26 109 yards and 0 tds. This was a team with Rice, Taylor, Craig, Rathman and Dwight Clark on offense. So even the best players and teams can have a bad day. Steve Young had to relieve Montana that day and led the 49ers to a couple of second half touchdowns. There was talk that Montana was getting old and that he got hurt too easily and that Young was the future and maybe the future should start sooner than later. The 49ers did not panic. With Montana starting the next year they won the super bowl after going only 10-6 in the regular season.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]


    CNSSD - Once again, listen!  I said the D stunk in the 4th Quarter letting the Rams get back in the game, and that was not the Best D of the 3 SB teams and what makes a D great is making plays when they are needed, and in those 3 SB wins, it was the young inexperience QB who had to make unbelievable plays to win all # SBs.  SO ONCE AGAIN, the D stunk when it needed to be the best D in all of football, and that is in the 4th Quarter of the most important game of every year called the SB.

    And their young late round pic had to find a way to win a 3 very close games with infinitel less talent on offense than these last 5 team since 07, which I actually disagree, seeing all the receivers in that SB era made great clutch catches and TD passes when it mattered.

    I also do agree with True Champ and have felt the same way since Weis and Cromell left, hiring all young amateur Coordinators and that probably more than anything, has hurt this team and BB has had to get to involved in everything!

     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    I find it hilarious that someone would say that Brady is our problem and that he is not the same player he was, and in such this is why we aren't winning any super bowls.

    Look at those Super Bowl teams, they had a very nice blend of solid players across the board - offense - and defense. That defense was far superior in talent, experience, depth and heart than this one. And guess what...it helped.

    The offense of old was a lot more talented than people care to remember. They had three receivers that could run. Three!! Branch was young and not only was he quick, he could also get behind a defense. Something he has no shot of doing now. David Givens had developed himself into a very formidable all around talent, who also could run. David Patten could get behind a defense and had unusual quickness - hell they all had unusual quickness. Christ even Bethal Johnson could blow the top off a defense. We had a very good blocking tightend that could catch well enough (Graham). Kevin Faulk was a outstanding and young third down back. Our line was solid, and we had a strong running back in all our Super Bowl years. Brady had plenty to work with, it's just that they spread it around so well that none of these guys ever became stars.

    This offense that we currently have is also more than solid. Our line is good, the depth at running back is there. I would argue that our old receiver core is better than our current one (if you take away Welker, what do we have?). Our tightends are better now, but I think in all honesty he had more to work with when he was winning those Super Bowls...yet he is putting up better numbers. In my opinion if he had a defense that could carry it's weight...we'd be winning more Super Bowls. 
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Thanks True Champ - I agree this team is to one dimensional, yet I think because the offense has kept the team way out in front, particularly in 07, that the team got lazy; our O line in the SB vs the Giants, a real travesty. and our 35-0 halftime leads were all of a sudden 42-24 in the early 4th Q as the D also got lazy. I still feel Brady comes out when he is behind and never seems confident about moving the ball.  I think the old Brady was so innocent, and had absolutely no stress on himself, where this one never seems comfortable unless the machine is out scoring, and up big. I knew from day one w/ Moss/Welker that this offense wouldn't work in the playoff, being to much wide open stuff like Peytons Colts; hence the Pats 2 losses with superstar WR averaged 14 points, and the D gets blamed, and Manning in his career, his 10 or 11 losses had an offense averaging 13 points a loss.  Either way we agree there is something really wrong with this offense since 07, and it really needs to change. It's funny, the Cowboy game, we made tons of mistakes, but the whole team stayed together and pulled out the game, and that was one of only a few 4th Q comebacks for Brady in these past 5 years when he really needed one, like in the playoffs.
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

    What's interesting is I think overall, the offensive talent has changed. More invested in the TE's, and more through Welker than in 07'. So, I think we have changed our philosophy a bit, but not a wholesale change. I thought we would after we drafted 2 RB's this year, but I still don't see an offense committed to the run at key times using it's stable of backs. The difference is instead of havinng 4 good to great WR's, we have 2 good to great TE's, and 1 great WR, with some decent players behind them. We still pass primarily, althought the targets have changed and the field shortened a bit.
    I think your point about Offensive coordinators is right on. More specifically a guy like Weiss. Maybe it was the combo of Brady being young and Charlie able to teach/lead that created what it did, but it certainly isn't replicated with O'Brien. We have tremendous fall off there, and I'll agree that this is a key reason behind some of our troubles on Offense.

    My vote is to draft another big, pass-blocking/catching TE in the mold of Gronk. I want 2 of these guys out there at all times, along with Hern lining up the in the backfield. Run from a 2 TE set, led Hern lead block and plow through defenses.
    When that gets old, using the same personnel, split the TE's out wide, Hern to the slot, use Vereen in the other slot, or put him in motion and Brady to the shotgun. Pass.

    We need to complete the transformation on offense. Big TE's, run heavy, pass out of the same personnel sets, line they big guys up everywhere.

    So, if your a defensivfe coordinator, how do youdefend that? Flood the field with 7 DB's? or maybe 5 DL?....This is what O'Brien needs to learn. Unpredictability.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Montana took a horrible team and got them to the playoffs winning many games in the late part of the game.  And stats mean nothing!!  Marino had the best, Favre and Manning were close behind and they won 2 SBs total. Montana never was a great stat machine, and he rarely thru for more than 300 yards, and neither did the young Brady. Will 'you' at least except that when Brady is behind in the last 5 years, he rarely takes his team back to victory, and he loses his edge?
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]

     Lets discuss this horrible chiefs team  you talk about. Montana played there in 93 + 94. This horrible team had 4 straight winning seasons before Montana got there in 89, 90, 91 + 92. They had gone to the playoffs three straight years 90, 91 + 92. The year after Montana left they went 13-3, better than they ever did under Montana in a very tough division. They never went to the super bowl with or without Montana because of Marty Schottenheimer's epic bad luck in the playoffs. Without realizing it,the Chiefs back up QB for many of those seasons was a great player, who when finally given the oppurtunity to start outplayed all of KC's QBs and that guy was Rich Gannon.
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]Until this organization is willing to spend serious money on linebackers and a defensive backfield this team is going to be what it is: High scoring (this offense is more than good enough to win a SB) with a sketchy defense that can't stop elite teams--that will do what the Steelers did: control time of possession, tire out the porous defense. Pat will beat up on poor teams. But they're pretenders with this defense. And after this many years of trying to hide the same deficiencies It's time to get off the Bill Bellicek Defensive Genius bandwagon. He was that. No more. How many drafts have gone by and we stil have a flawed defense. This has become tedious.
    Posted by tjwoods[/QUOTE]



    TJ woods - this offense has stunk in the playoffs since 07, so D or no D that offense can't score in the big games
     
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    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! :  Lets discuss this horrible chiefs team  you talk about. Montana played there in 93 + 94. This horrible team had 4 straight winning seasons before Montana got there in 89, 90, 91 + 92. They had gone to the playoffs three straight years 90, 91 + 92. The year after Montana left they went 13-3, better than they ever did under Montana in a very tough division. They never went to the super bowl with or without Montana because of Marty Schottenheimer's epic bad luck in the playoffs. Without realizing it,the Chiefs back up QB for many of those seasons was a great player, who when finally given the oppurtunity to start outplayed all of KC's QBs and that guy was Rich Gannon.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]


    You haven't got a leg to stand on and now it is time to call you on your BS. Everything you just said is total BS.  No matter what, no one in KC today would even care about what you just said, and everyone would talk about how the old man, a shell of himself gave them the only shining light they have had since 1970. !n 1993 the Chiefs had an 11-5 record, made the playoffs, and Joe had TWO come from behind wins in the Playoffs, both 7 point deficits, and made it all the way to the AFC Championship, the only AFC Title appearance in Chief history, which they lost. That's one game from the SB, right?  Now to finally seal your fate, they won 2 playoff games that year, and they had only one playoff win (91) since their SB win in 1970, and to make matters worse for you, the Chiefs have not won a playoff game since Joe's 2 playoff wins.  So those 4 previous seasons would once again mean nothing to the Chief fans today, who were around at that time. Same with what Gannon did after. He was very good but Joe?  They all knew he gave them a shot to win it all.  All they would care about was that Joe Montana and a running back Marcus Allen, came in and for 2 years, the Chief fans knew they had a chance to win it all for the only time in 41 years, and in 1993 Joe made them clearly the best team they have had since the 1970 SB.

    Joe went to his last of 8 pro bowls in 93.  He also beat Elway and Steve Young in 94 in two great games, starting 14 of the 16 games and got the Chiefs to the playoffs once again in 1994.

    So Montana won two playoff games in the samr year, came from behind to win both, got to the AFC title game for the only time in history, and outside of his two playoff games, the Chiefs won one other playoff game since 1970.  That's 41 years my friend. His 2 seasons were far better than all those other 4 seasons before and the ones after w/ Gannon combined because w/ Joe, they had a legitimate shot at winning the SB and everyone there was stoked when they got him or soon after they saw him play.  No matter what the Chiefs did in those 5 seasons you mentioned and w/ Gannon, they did not have a better record in anything that would compare in any one of them, they won one playoff game in all those 5 years and however many seasons Rich Gannon played there,  so I think that kind of wraps your arguement.

    But please, Respond!

    So Gannon in no way improved the team no matter how many 13 game seasons he had there as Joe showed why he is the greatest QB ever winning 2 games coming from behind for KC in the playoffs, and since you love stats, he won 2 last 2nd SBs, threw 11 TD passes in 4 SB games, no pics in 123 att, 3 SB MVPs, the most ever, a 127 passer rating in 4 SB wins w/ no losses.

    See ya!

    Oh, I know you feel great about the 3 turnovers the D created vs the Rams, and that WAS GREAT, but as I said, that same D allowed the Rams to tie the game up
    and they put ALL the pressure on TB in the last 1:30 in which he played like a Tai Chi Master, relaxed and cool as could be leading his team to the win.
     
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    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : What's interesting is I think overall, the offensive talent has changed. More invested in the TE's, and more through Welker than in 07'. So, I think we have changed our philosophy a bit, but not a wholesale change. I thought we would after we drafted 2 RB's this year, but I still don't see an offense committed to the run at key times using it's stable of backs. The difference is instead of havinng 4 good to great WR's, we have 2 good to great TE's, and 1 great WR, with some decent players behind them. We still pass primarily, althought the targets have changed and the field shortened a bit. I think your point about Offensive coordinators is right on. More specifically a guy like Weiss. Maybe it was the combo of Brady being young and Charlie able to teach/lead that created what it did, but it certainly isn't replicated with O'Brien. We have tremendous fall off there, and I'll agree that this is a key reason behind some of our troubles on Offense. My vote is to draft another big, pass-blocking/catching TE in the mold of Gronk. I want 2 of these guys out there at all times, along with Hern lining up the in the backfield. Run from a 2 TE set, led Hern lead block and plow through defenses. When that gets old, using the same personnel, split the TE's out wide, Hern to the slot, use Vereen in the other slot, or put him in motion and Brady to the shotgun. Pass. We need to complete the transformation on offense. Big TE's, run heavy, pass out of the same personnel sets, line they big guys up everywhere. So, if your a defensivfe coordinator, how do youdefend that? Flood the field with 7 DB's? or maybe 5 DL?....This is what O'Brien needs to learn. Unpredictability.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    Good stuff Pats Lifer, and I really believe as most in NE that maybe it is time to get a real coordinator on both sides of the ball.  There has to be a reason this D especially can't jell, and the offense is just way to wide open, to finesse - both sides of the ball- and like the Colts, the Pats since 07 can't score when the game is tight like the Jets last year, Ravens in 09, and the Giants in 07.

    The offense doesn't translate at all into the playoffs, and heck, in 06 w/ reche caldwell as our #1 WR, the Pats scored 35 in the AFC Ch game loss to the Colts, BB changes offense in a so called upgrade, and in 3 playoff losses they score a total of 49 point in 3 games, only 28 in Moss' 2 losses or 14 per game.
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!! : Thanks True Champ - I agree this team is to one dimensional, yet I think because the offense has kept the team way out in front, particularly in 07, that the team got lazy; our O line in the SB vs the Giants, a real travesty. and our 35-0 halftime leads were all of a sudden 42-24 in the early 4th Q as the D also got lazy. I still feel Brady comes out when he is behind and never seems confident about moving the ball.  I think the old Brady was so innocent, and had absolutely no stress on himself, where this one never seems comfortable unless the machine is out scoring, and up big. I knew from day one w/ Moss/Welker that this offense wouldn't work in the playoff, being to much wide open stuff like Peytons Colts; hence the Pats 2 losses with superstar WR averaged 14 points, and the D gets blamed, and Manning in his career, his 10 or 11 losses had an offense averaging 13 points a loss.  Either way we agree there is something really wrong with this offense since 07, and it really needs to change. It's funny, the Cowboy game, we made tons of mistakes, but the whole team stayed together and pulled out the game, and that was one of only a few 4th Q comebacks for Brady in these past 5 years when he really needed one, like in the playoffs.
    Posted by quasi[/QUOTE]


    Well just to be clear, I don't think the offensive failures in the post season is Brady's fault. I think he is every bit as good a QB probably better then he was in the early part of the decade.

    I am saying it is a fundamental break down in the coaching. Even in 07 I know a lot of people worried that once the weather turned we would have trouble moving the chains and we did. We barely woin a few games down the stretch and were out played by the Chargers in the afc championship.

    This has all stemmed from a lack of commitment to the run game imo. We rely on Brady's arm to bail us out as opposed to offensive ingenuity on the part of the OC. Run.throw,PA,screens,reverse's are not used in a timely manner as Charlie used them.

    Defense's are too good just to come out and say here  is our spread offense now beat it. They have beat it, the ship has sailed and now we have built an offense that each week can be unpredictable.....they just are not doing it yet?!?!?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from cosmo14. Show cosmo14's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    What happened to that false premise that the Patriots always find guys who can fill in for those who cannot play, injury or not. Troy Brown was on the radio and he actually said this nonsense recently. Someone finally called him on it to give examples and he stammered over weak examples. I am glad that, at least, we don't hear that anymore because it was/is incorrect.

    Next falsehood that seems to be correcting itself is the Belichick genius label. It has taken 4 years but finally it is wearing thin. Never saw it, never will. He was simply lucky and that has run out.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dessalines. Show Dessalines's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    Thanks for posting, though I think your panic looks bad on you....
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]The defense is ranked 32nd, dead last in the NFL.  Any further questions?  Good. 
    Posted by ipot[/QUOTE]


    Yes!!  What about the offense in the playoffs?  3 straight losses scoring a whole 14 points vs the Giants, then 14 vs the Ravens; both with Moss playing, and then last year w/ out Moss they scored a whole 21 points!   That's 49 points in 3 games by maybe the best offense ever, and in 06 w/ the worse offense in the BB/TB era, they scored 35 points vs the Colts in the AFC Champion game, and that's 14 points less than the last 3 playoff losses combined.

    That my friend is the question everyone should be asking and few dare to ask thinking that TB is still the great QB he once was, and maybe stat wise, and experience wise, knowing the league and all that, but as far as a play maker, and what I mean by that, is great players make the plays no matter what or when it is needed more than anyone else.  Even when there is nothing out there that looks possible, they still come thru.  Players like Montana, the TB of the SB era, Jerry Rice - who makes Moss look like an amateur when a game really matters, and of course the greatest playmaker in sports history, Bill Russell, who said when asked about all the rebounds he had per game and in his career said:

    It isn't how many rebounds you get; it's when you get them!!

    The young TB was like that and the veteran we have today has seemingly lost that, maybe because of the schemes or OCs but the fact remains when he is behind, he loses his edge, and he almost never makes plays down the stretch when needed, and if he gets it back, he would then be a better QB than he was in the SB era.

    You were right about the D, but fail to mention this terrible offense that comes out in the playoffs, and they fell behind in the last 2 games early and they never showed any grit after that early interception vs the Jets, and they let the Ravens jump out early w/ 20 plus lead in the 1st Q and Brady did nothing at all during and after that.

    Look at Brady in the clutch, and the whole team; not just the D is all I ask.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    Great stuff.  Agree about the shift in the offense . Its frustrating. It's why they lost in buffalo.  4th qtr up 7, Brady throws a pick on 1st down from bills 23.  Was I the only one yelling at the TV , RUN THE BALL!...?  Bradys taking shots...kick the FG ! 

    This was one of the worst losses because it's so stupid \greedy\ away from the SB years OC philosophy.

    Do you need a Charlie Weis type with experience to recognize this ...?

    Then you have the 2007 season...  Don't forget about spygate.  The haters were saying the offense benefitted from the taping.  Every blowout that year BB and the pats were saying "tape? Where's the tape? We can crush you anyway... The tape was irrelevant " .  The sad part is that it should have made it go away but the seed was planted.  The fines were ridiculous and to this day we still hear the idiots  calling us cheaters.

    Back to the offense .  This is when the real shift occurred since the chip on BB s shoulder was so huge , the whole thinking of the team changed:

    Win by outscoring ...etc.  It almost appears that he considers the defense irrelevant or second class . 

    4th and 2... On your own 30 yard line...?  That playright there tells you the story.  Are we playing football or keep-away?


    Hopefully the buffalo game was a wake up call.  That loss should never happen...  Another brain cramp happened at the end of the first half... Brady threw a pick on the bills 15, up by 14...! A running play and a FG put you up 3 scores ...

    That's strategic football .  O'Brien is another OC Jr.apparently since he doesn't seem to get it.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucbom. Show lucbom's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    As a life long fan of any Boston pro team, living in Colorado, I don't get to watch any of the teams often, but when I am able to watch, in this case the Pats, it seems that more often than not, the DB's play 5-10 yards off the opposing team receivers, and do not seem to be physically able, or in position to break up, intercept passes.  It looks like the Pats DB's play a lot of zone coverage, instead of 1 on 1, so that when an opposing team receiver catches a pass, more often than not, the Pats DB's will close quickly and make the tackle.  If the above is somewhat true, I've often wondered why the Pats DB's don't play receivers up on the line of scrimmage, especially on 2nd or 3rd and long, so as to harass the receivers as much as possible from the line of scrimmage and beyond?  It looks like the Pats are willing to give up the short completions, but prevent the bomb.  The Pat's secondary defense appears to be so predictable to opposing teams.  Just an unqualified opinion, right or wrong.  GO PAT'S! 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In the long run BB will always fix the QB, fix the offensive line, fix the defensive line and maybe the inside linebacker position.  The tight ends are on the offensive line and so BB got at least one great blocker in Big Gronk.  The line is where championships are won. 

    That leaves wideout, running back and defensive backfield.  Some area of the field has to suffer.  Strange to say, BB has been drafting like crazy in the defensive backfield and has nothing to show for it except Chung.  He keeps getting guys that play well one year, then get injured.  McCourty appears to be playing injured.  Meriweather was good in his rookie year but he's out.  Butler took a hike.  Dowling is on IR.  Most of the current cornerbacks are guys off of the street. 

    Still, the formula has gotten the Patriots to 5-2, and the two losses were both tough teams at their home stadiums with notable favoritism by the refs.

    I thought Brady had a good comeback drive against the Cowboys.  He was at least driving down the field in the fourth quarter against Pittsburgh.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]Great stuff.  Agree about the shift in the offense . Its frustrating. It's why they lost in buffalo.  4th qtr up 7, Brady throws a pick on 1st down from bills 23.  Was I the only one yelling at the TV , RUN THE BALL!...?  Bradys taking shots...kick the FG !  This was one of the worst losses because it's so stupid \greedy\ away from the SB years OC philosophy. Do you need a Charlie Weis type with experience to recognize this ...? Then you have the 2007 season...  Don't forget about spygate.  The haters were saying the offense benefitted from the taping.  Every blowout that year BB and the pats were saying "tape? Where's the tape? We can crush you anyway... The tape was irrelevant " .  The sad part is that it should have made it go away but the seed was planted.  The fines were ridiculous and to this day we still hear the idiots  calling us cheaters. Back to the offense .  This is when the real shift occurred since the chip on BB s shoulder was so huge , the whole thinking of the team changed: Win by outscoring ...etc.  It almost appears that he considers the defense irrelevant or second class .  4th and 2....? Hopefully the buffalo game was a wake up call.
    Posted by coolade2[/QUOTE]


    Coolade2, you got it.  I knew from 2nd game in 07 for sure when we played the Bills that this fiasco of an offense was not going to work winning by 35-0 at halftime.  I got so much grief every where I went for saying that.  And more important that it would never translate into the playoffs.  Moss was a soft receiver and can't do it in the biggest of games and he faded as the season went by, but what really effected the team was it dulled Brady's magic by always winning huge.  He thrived in tough close games, playing to the score which kept the whole team in the game emotionally and physically, and he had so much of Montana in him, his idol being brought up 10 minutes from Candlstick Park, obviously .  They ran the ball even when it wasn't working well, where today they run it more for effect, and the leagues defenses know that they will rarely stick to it, yet when they do, the team plays better as a "team" on both sides of the ball.

    Brady looks dejected a lot when the Pats are behind.  I really believed it took away his true late game winning instinct, which is knowing how to win the close games which is the most important quality in a winner; not winning by 40.  When you are always up by 40, you tend to forget what to do when the game gets close down the stretch and you are in a huge hard hitting battle.  Our lines, especially the offensive forget how to hit hard and open up the holes, or stop the blitz because they never have to worry about either, being up by so much; hence the huge pressure the O line received in the SB by the Giants front 4.

    In the end it is the philosophy that has stopped the Pats since 07 began, and the lack of a winning instinct when it really matters, and that is at the end of games, and not in the first quarter.  It's easy when you get up by 21 points early, but what if it doesn't work and you are so use to your instincts beating the team early in the game?  They are use to working at only one part of the game, where if you are a team that is always ready to pounce when it truly matters, you will win when it really matters, like at the end of games and in the biggest of games.

    One of the main things that happens to a cellar dweller that has been at the bottom of the league for a while is they have a season or part of the season where all or most of the games are close, yet they can't seem to win them.  Losing these close games are huge, and if they realize they are close as a team to winning then and hang in there, they all of a sudden start to win those close games, and you finally have arrived competing for the playoffs and maybe more.  You have to play as a team for most or all of the games to win close games or at least be ready to play at he very end, and the great attitude develops and evolves, you become a winner, but like the 07 - present Pats, when you are living high on the hog, winning by huge scores, like all empires that get lazy and greedy, they will definitely fall, and the empire is dying, trying to rebuild, holding its own. They only dominate in the little battles, and are no longer a threat to keeping a strong well oiled empire (winning SBs). But the philosophy that made the empire great has fallen, and until this team finds the right philosophy like:

    1. Playing the whole game   2. Beating the other team in the trenches, breaking the will of the other team more than by how much you win by   3.  If you don't play the whole game, make sure you save your best for last, and not just in the first period   4.  Keep everyone hungry, wanting to get better, not concerned with stats: 19-0, 55 TD passes, 23 TD receptions, and MVP awards based on stats (Brady now) when the true value of an MVP is being the winner of the biggest games, and always keeping his team in the game because of his intangibles, showing them that if they have a chance to win a close game, especially the biggest of games, his will to win will give the team the best chance to win that game at the end, and when he shows them he can win those games, the team will always be there for him, which in the SB era they were, and Brady brought them to the promised land 3 times, 2 of them in the last second.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!

    In Response to Re: The Pats are failing, and few want to look at the main reason!!:
    [QUOTE]As a life long fan of any Boston pro team, living in Colorado, I don't get to watch any of the teams often, but when I am able to watch, in this case the Pats, it seems that more often than not, the DB's play 5-10 yards off the opposing team receivers, and do not seem to be physically able, or in position to break up, intercept passes.  It looks like the Pats DB's play a lot of zone coverage, instead of 1 on 1, so that when an opposing team receiver catches a pass, more often than not, the Pats DB's will close quickly and make the tackle.  If the above is somewhat true, I've often wondered why the Pats DB's don't play receivers up on the line of scrimmage, especially on 2nd or 3rd and long, so as to harass the receivers as much as possible from the line of scrimmage and beyond?  It looks like the Pats are willing to give up the short completions, but prevent the bomb.  The Pat's secondary defense appears to be so predictable to opposing teams.  Just an unqualified opinion, right or wrong.  GO PAT'S! 
    Posted by lucbom[/QUOTE]



    Lucbom, I would say you are pretty right on.  This D is not very physical and some of it may be in learning the system and playing it as a team.  It is pretty complex, thou many of us our having doubts about the D in general these days, drafting unwisely, and not bringing in real Coordinators on both sides of the ball so BB can be a head coach, and of course, getting a group to run the draft and let BB focus more on coaching.

    These are tough times mostly because no matter what the team does in the regular season, they are very beatable in the playoffs, and much if not most of this is lack of physical play. 
     

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