The Run Game

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:


    Is a monster, and the best in the league






    I don't know if I'd go that far yet. Minnesota is probably the best, and will remain that way until AP loses a few steps.

    Washington is brighter. Those two rookies last season, RGIII and Alfred Morris were incredibly impressive and really make them ridiculously tough to think about defending. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHAMPSXLVIII. Show CHAMPSXLVIII's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    I think Vereen might be soft.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

     

     



    That was my point earlier. Unless they have some other plan for KR, I don't see how Bolden makes this roster if cut downs were today.

     

     

    Given that, there is time left and Blount is a total headcase. He could do anything to sacrifice the position he has himself in line for. There is no question he has looked better than Bolden, but he has put on a show before only to turn into sulky Blount afterward. 

    To be frank, given your list, if they were to carry a fifth RB at the expense elswhere, I'd rather it be a FB like Develin. He at least adds the dimension of running a proper I, wing, or pro-set formation, whereas Bolden would just be redundant and less skilled than the rest.

    [/QUOTE]

    I tend to agree. Develin is a different type of player than anyone else they have (though Hoo actually plays sort of like a FB, though I don't think I've seen him used as a runner).  

    They did give Bolden a few snaps on the first two series.  Mostly what I remember were a few two-back formations with Bolden and Vereen flanking Brady in the shotgun and both going out for passes.  One of these plays, at least, went for a nice gain on a pass to Vereen.  Bolden does catch better than Ridley and (I believe) better than Blount, so if you're going to send two backs out in passing patterns, Bolden and Vereen is probably the best combo.  But it was Vereen who got the ball. I think right now Bolden's opportunity is to show he can be a better receiver than Blount while being a similar running threat.  But so far, he hasn't really demonstrated the productivity in either the running or the passing game to displace Blount I don't think. 

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

     

     



    That was my point earlier. Unless they have some other plan for KR, I don't see how Bolden makes this roster if cut downs were today.

     

     

    Given that, there is time left and Blount is a total headcase. He could do anything to sacrifice the position he has himself in line for. There is no question he has looked better than Bolden, but he has put on a show before only to turn into sulky Blount afterward. 

    To be frank, given your list, if they were to carry a fifth RB at the expense elswhere, I'd rather it be a FB like Develin. He at least adds the dimension of running a proper I, wing, or pro-set formation, whereas Bolden would just be redundant and less skilled than the rest.



    I tend to agree. Develin is a different type of player than anyone else they have (though Hoo actually plays sort of like a FB, though I don't think I've seen him used as a runner).  

    They did give Bolden a few snaps on the first two series.  Mostly what I remember were a few two-back formations with Bolden and Vereen flanking Brady in the shotgun and both going out for passes.  One of these plays, at least, went for a nice gain on a pass to Vereen.  Bolden does catch better than Ridley and (I believe) better than Blount, so if you're going to send two backs out in passing patterns, Bolden and Vereen is probably the best combo.  But it was Vereen who got the ball. I think right now Bolden's opportunity is to show he can be a better receiver than Blount while being a similar running threat.  But so far, he hasn't really demonstrated the productivity in either the running or the passing game to displace Blount I don't think. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    None of the three are really good receivers. I think I'd give the nod, myself, to Blount though. For all his girth, he has remarkable flexibility. That's usually what you look for in a RB who is meant to catch. 

    Develin really is kind of vieing against Hoo for a spot, but also the running backs.

    I think an under-discussed aspect are Washington's prospects. Really he is such a standout KR I hope they keep him around. He's been in on all their KR reps, so that is a good sign.

    It's been a spot NE has needed to improve on since Tate left, and before that for a while too, since Bethel Johnson. 

    I place a high value on good KR/PRs, KRs especially because a good one can get you half a drive in one jaunt, and a lot more frequently than a PR, who has a harder job by the nature of the coverage/kick.

    I really want to see NE get some  help from the KR game this season, and hopefully post-season. I'm tired of going to the playoffs and seeing the ST just no-show. It's like people forgot this is a three phase game, and that NE won some games on big plays from those units in the past. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    I have the same questions about Washington--he just doesn't do much other than return kick offs, but I agree kick returner is a key role that needs to improve.  They did try Washington as a runner and punt returner in the first game, but seemed to abandon that this game (at least if I recall correctly).  The fact that they keep using Washington almost exclusively on KO returns, though, makes me think BB has decided to keep Washington as a specialist, even though he has limited versatility. 

    Edelman is another guy who I thought could be at risk, but he's proven his value as a punt returner and is looking okay as a receiver too, so I think he sticks as well.  Add Slater and that's three of the skill players wha are there primarily because of their special teams skills.  Maybe that's the argument for going to 17 skill players this year?

     

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    I have the same questions about Washington--he just doesn't do much other than return kick offs, but I agree kick returner is a key role that needs to improve.  They did try Washington as a runner and punt returner in the first game, but seemed to abandon that this game (at least if I recall correctly).  The fact that they keep using Washington almost exclusively on KO returns, though, makes me think BB has decided to keep Washington as a specialist, even though he has limited versatility. 

    Edelman is another guy who I thought could be at risk, but he's proven his value as a punt returner and is looking okay as a receiver too, so I think he sticks as well.  Add Slater and that's three of the skill players wha are there primarily because of their special teams skills.  Maybe that's the argument for going to 17 skill players this year?

     

     

     



    He does have some other slight value. 1.) He's run routes from the slot. 2.) He is a veteran runner. 3.) He is a true 3rd down back. 

    Those add to it. If Vereen is injured, you have a vet backup. If you want to run five wide, with three interior WRs ... he can get in there with DA and JE. 

    Plus he is a backup PR. 

    Oh, and he is one of the great KRs of his generation. 

    Overall, I don't mind keeping a player like him around, even at the expense of Boldin. A guuy like Boldin can be had at any time during the season from the FA pool. A guy like Washington ... not so much.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    Why do we list Slater as a WR, he's a specialist same as LS, K and P?

    He's useless as a WR. I say cut him loose and use that spot on someone who can actually play real football (like a 5th RB, a FB like Develin or a real WR), but it seems he's like Ghost, a sacred cow.

    If you feel differently, answer this: is the difference he makes on STs vs a replacement, enough to justify cutting Bolden or someone else who might be a real football player? I honestly don't know how you can come up with a "yes" to that, but maybe...

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Why do we list Slater as a WR, he's a specialist same as LS, K and P?

    He's useless as a WR. I say cut him loose and use that spot on someone who can actually play real football (like a 5th RB, a FB like Develin or a real WR), but it seems he's like Ghost, a sacred cow.

    If you feel differently, answer this: is the difference he makes on STs vs a replacement, enough to justify cutting Bolden or someone else who might be a real football player? I honestly don't know how you can come up with a "yes" to that, but maybe...

     

     

     



     

    Kick and punt coverage is (1) real football and (2) critical in limiting your opponents' field position and therefore scoring opportunities.  Slater is one of the best guys in the NFL at getting downfield on kicks and punts and making contact with the returner quickly. He makes a huge contribution on four or five key plays a game.  A back-up running back is mostly going to sit on the bench except on special teams too . . . and it's unlikely that the back-up running back is going to be nearly as good as Slater on special teams.  

    As far as listing Slater as a WR, that's just convention . . . he really is a speciallist, but they don't list guys like him and Larry Izzo as that.  

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Why do we list Slater as a WR, he's a specialist same as LS, K and P?

    He's useless as a WR. I say cut him loose and use that spot on someone who can actually play real football (like a 5th RB, a FB like Develin or a real WR), but it seems he's like Ghost, a sacred cow.

    If you feel differently, answer this: is the difference he makes on STs vs a replacement, enough to justify cutting Bolden or someone else who might be a real football player? I honestly don't know how you can come up with a "yes" to that, but maybe...

     

     

     



     

    Kick and punt coverage is (1) real football and (2) critical in limiting your opponents' field position and therefore scoring opportunities.  Slater is one of the best guys in the NFL at getting downfield on kicks and punts and making contact with the returner quickly. He makes a huge contribution on four or five key plays a game.  A back-up running back is mostly going to sit on the bench except on special teams too . . . and it's unlikely that the back-up running back is going to be nearly as good as Slater on special teams.  

    As far as listing Slater as a WR, that's just convention . . . he really is a speciallist, but they don't list guys like him and Larry Izzo as that.  



    Yeah, that's the argument. I'm not convinced, but I get it.

    Obviously, I wouldn't replace Slater on STs with a plodder like Bolden or Develin, but maybe a guy like Boyce (or Justin Green) or another speed guy. I just don't see the delta between Slater and one of those guys justifying cutting a good football player who plays a position on offense (or defense).  

    It's convention slotting him at WR, but it means a real WR (or a promising DB like Green, or an RB that might contribute) is on the street or on another team.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: The Run Game

    I have a feeling Vereen will make everyone forget about Woodhead, if they haven't already.  I think he can be as good as Faulk.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Why do we list Slater as a WR, he's a specialist same as LS, K and P?

    He's useless as a WR. I say cut him loose and use that spot on someone who can actually play real football (like a 5th RB, a FB like Develin or a real WR), but it seems he's like Ghost, a sacred cow.

    If you feel differently, answer this: is the difference he makes on STs vs a replacement, enough to justify cutting Bolden or someone else who might be a real football player? I honestly don't know how you can come up with a "yes" to that, but maybe...

     

     

     



     

    Kick and punt coverage is (1) real football and (2) critical in limiting your opponents' field position and therefore scoring opportunities.  Slater is one of the best guys in the NFL at getting downfield on kicks and punts and making contact with the returner quickly. He makes a huge contribution on four or five key plays a game.  A back-up running back is mostly going to sit on the bench except on special teams too . . . and it's unlikely that the back-up running back is going to be nearly as good as Slater on special teams.  

    As far as listing Slater as a WR, that's just convention . . . he really is a speciallist, but they don't list guys like him and Larry Izzo as that.  

     



    Yeah, that's the argument. I'm not convinced, but I get it.

     

    Obviously, I wouldn't replace Slater on STs with a plodder like Bolden or Develin, but maybe a guy like Boyce (or Justin Green) or another speed guy. I just don't see the delta between Slater and one of those guys justifying cutting a good football player who plays a position on offense (or defense).  

    It's convention slotting him at WR, but it means a real WR (or a promising DB like Green, or an RB that might contribute) is on the street or on another team.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think if he were an average special teams player, I'd agree it would be better to have a more versatile guy in that roster spot.  But Slater is so good at what he does that it's probably worth keeping him for just that function.  Not everyone who is fast does well at gunner.  Arrington is good at it, but a lot of our other guys are just so-so despite good speed and tackling ability.  Plus, I think BB likes to have at least one guy on the coverage teams who sees that as his primary job and not just something he's moonlighting at and can be the onfield leader for a group of guys who are mostly focused on their other roles.  

     

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I have the same questions about Washington--he just doesn't do much other than return kick offs, but I agree kick returner is a key role that needs to improve.  They did try Washington as a runner and punt returner in the first game, but seemed to abandon that this game (at least if I recall correctly).  The fact that they keep using Washington almost exclusively on KO returns, though, makes me think BB has decided to keep Washington as a specialist, even though he has limited versatility. 

    Edelman is another guy who I thought could be at risk, but he's proven his value as a punt returner and is looking okay as a receiver too, so I think he sticks as well.  Add Slater and that's three of the skill players wha are there primarily because of their special teams skills.  Maybe that's the argument for going to 17 skill players this year?

     

     

     

     



    He does have some other slight value. 1.) He's run routes from the slot. 2.) He is a veteran runner. 3.) He is a true 3rd down back. 

     

    Those add to it. If Vereen is injured, you have a vet backup. If you want to run five wide, with three interior WRs ... he can get in there with DA and JE. 

    Plus he is a backup PR. 

    Oh, and he is one of the great KRs of his generation. 

    Overall, I don't mind keeping a player like him around, even at the expense of Boldin. A guuy like Boldin can be had at any time during the season from the FA pool. A guy like Washington ... not so much.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good points on Washington - last night I was thinking maybe they cut him, but then I started to think how important it is to have a guy that can reduce the length of the field your offense has to travel. It's a big deal.

    I'll tell you the guy doesn't look like he's lost any speed to me, this is a good player here and I've got to think if needed he could do something on offense.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    This is incorrect in theory. They ran against 2 defenses suspect to the run. They will be pass heavy against other teams. Each game will have its own plan with a halftime adjustment. If you want to make assumptions on how much they will run, dont look within, look at the opposing schedule



    rkarp...rethink that post of yours.  All we heard in the TB game was how the Pats were running effectively against one of the better run D's in the league.  Besides, in the past, regardless of the nature of the D the Pats faced, they would be pas heavy to begin a game and eschew the run until a lead was well in hand to eat clock.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    To nobody in particular...

    Develin has zero chance at making this roster.  Huey is much better as a fullback and Blount is much better as a big bruising back.  It will come down to Bolden and Blount, Bolden plays special teams pretty well and has been solid in blitz pickup, Blount not so much. 

    I want to keep them both but I have to think the intangibles allows Bolden to stick, but there may be contract issues I haven't taken into account.  Any capologists out there, if we decide to keep Bolden can we trade Blount in the preseason (now) and get fair value in return, I'm sure some team starved for a RB would be interested?  If all we got back was the pick we used on Demps it would be worth it.

    Washington absolutely makes this team, he is one of, if not THE best kick returner in the league, he is also very good as a third down back should Vereen get hurt, we wouldn't skip a beat.

    Rusty; Martin was an all purpose back he could do it all, so can Ridely and Bolden.

    Rkarp; ridiculous, Tampa isn't just one of the best run stopping teams, they'll be one of the top rated defenses in the NFL provided they stay healthy.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from leonardo0110. Show leonardo0110's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    I thought I heard some of the announcers say that Tampa finished the season as the top rated run D in the league last year..now their pass D was a different story..and you saw how TB shredded them..I hope BB keeps 5 RB..there's always an injury there somewhere...


    " Don't Judge Me Untill You've Become Perfect "

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to leonardo0110's comment:

    I thought I heard some of the announcers say that Tampa finished the season as the top rated run D in the league last year..now their pass D was a different story..and you saw how TB shredded them..I hope BB keeps 5 RB..there's always an injury there somewhere...


    " Don't Judge Me Untill You've Become Perfect "



    Tampa had the number one rated run defense in the NFL, yards allowed and total yards.  

    Gerald McCoy was a number one pick, had 5 sacks last year and was a Pro Bowler, back when it counted I guess. Draft pick Akeem Spence health provided will be a big addition at tackle next to McCoy, he is custom fit for a 4/3 and has looked great so far, had a tackle for a loss against our first unit.  He'll add some pass rush to an otherwise run stuffing only unit, combined with new additions and you've got a great defense.

     

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    I still think we keep vareen, Ridley, Blount, bolden, Washington and a bubble te as a fullback till Gronk gets back. 6 rbs to start the season. 

     

     

    Now you got the easy part done telling me about it.

    Does that handshaped bruise on your back hurt?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    To nobody in particular...

    Develin has zero chance at making this roster.  Huey is much better as a fullback and Blount is much better as a big bruising back.  It will come down to Bolden and Blount, Bolden plays special teams pretty well and has been solid in blitz pickup, Blount not so much. 

    I want to keep them both but I have to think the intangibles allows Bolden to stick, but there may be contract issues I haven't taken into account.  Any capologists out there, if we decide to keep Bolden can we trade Blount in the preseason (now) and get fair value in return, I'm sure some team starved for a RB would be interested?  If all we got back was the pick we used on Demps it would be worth it.

    Washington absolutely makes this team, he is one of, if not THE best kick returner in the league, he is also very good as a third down back should Vereen get hurt, we wouldn't skip a beat.

    Rusty; Martin was an all purpose back he could do it all, so can Ridely and Bolden.

    Rkarp; ridiculous, Tampa isn't just one of the best run stopping teams, they'll be one of the top rated defenses in the NFL provided they stay healthy.

     



    Tend to agree that Develin is unlikely to make the roster, though I still like the idea of a true FB on the roster if there was one who could block, catch, and run in short yardage situations.  Guys like Patrick Pass, Marc Edwards, and Heath Evans were nice to have around because of their versatility and ability to play effectively from the backfield.  While TEs can do many of the same things as FBs, I still think a true FB brings some different blocking and ball carrying skills that can be useful.  A good NFL FB is expected to make the same read as the tailback and lead the tailback into the right hole, usually picking up the LB (NFL offense's increasingly have the tailbacks making reads rather than running to a predetermined hole).  That's a fairly specialized blocking skill that not all TEs are good at.  A real FB thinks more like a RB than a TE (or even H-back) does and is good at reading the run defense because of that.  A FB also can run through the line with the ball well, again because they think like RBs.   I remember listening to BB praise Patrick Pass for his ability to think like the RB and make the right reads.  That's the skill I think you lose if you don't have a "professional" FB on the roster and instead use TEs or linemen for extra blockers. 

    Hoomanawanui is a good blocker and receiver who approaches a FB (and is more an H-back than a TE) but I don't know if he has those RB skills that a real FB would have. 

    As far as trading Blount, maybe it's possible, but I think a lot of teams are willing now to wait for cuts to fill holes at no cost.  My understanding is that both Blount and Bolden are low-cost players who won't have much of a cap cost if cut. I agree Bolden is more versatile than Blount--and his special teams utility will add to his attraction.  But so far, Bolden hasn't run all that well in preseason and Blount has.  As a back-up to Ridley, Blount is looking a bit more effective to me now than Bolden is.  I think though the competition is very much alive.    

    I also think Washington is here to stay  (see my list above).  I think we need his KR skills desparately (please, no more McCourty as kick returner!), and you and Zbellino are both right about his ability to back-up Vereen.

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    KR is a nice luxury, but now there are 5 players on the team that are specialists. That seems a bit high to me. If Washington can play RB here and there, fine, but I'm not sure he's good enough to help there anymore. Who is he better than? He used to be pretty productive, especially out of the backfield. But he's caught 23 passes in the last three years, total.

    The Pats had 37 kickoff returns last year averaging 21.8 with one TD. Washington averaged 29 yds on 27 returns with one TD. Admittedly, 7 yards is significant. But last year was out of normal for him, his career average is 25.9 and he has 8 TDs in 7 years (6 of them coming in two seasons).

    So, assuming he returns to near his normal average, is four yards per kickoff worth a spot on the roster? I don't think so. Especially when you factor in the diminishing importance of kickoffs.

    While I know it won't happen, I'm cutting him and Slater and keeping two full time football players.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    KR is a nice luxury, but now there are 5 players on the team that are specialists. That seems a bit high to me. If Washington can play RB here and there, fine, but I'm not sure he's good enough to help there anymore. Who is he better than? He used to be pretty productive, especially out of the backfield. But he's caught 23 passes in the last three years, total.

    The Pats had 37 kickoff returns last year averaging 21.8 with one TD. Washington averaged 29 yds on 27 returns with one TD. Admittedly, 7 yards is significant. But last year was out of normal for him, his career average is 25.9 and he has 8 TDs in 7 years (6 of them coming in two seasons).

    So, assuming he returns to near his normal average, is four yards per kickoff worth a spot on the roster? I don't think so. Especially when you factor in the diminishing importance of kickoffs.

    While I know it won't happen, I'm cutting him and Slater and keeping two full time football players.



    It's not about 4 yards. It doesn't happen regularly like that. What that translates to is really 5-6 really long ones that chew up a bunch of field that the current KRs aren't getting. ~21 yards means you are essentially taking what the kicker gives you out to the 20 nearly every single time. A 25.6 means every third of fourth return is 50 yards. Over the course of a season, that could be about eight 40-60 yard returns more than what you get averaging 21. 

    That's more than significant. It's huge. It's like giving your offense 24 first downs. That's a whole lot more significant that what keeping a JAG like Bolden on the bench gives you over the course of the season. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Rusty; Martin was an all purpose back he could do it all, so can Ridely and Bolden.

     



    Well, the first part is correct.

    The second part? Not so much. Ridley is basically DOA on receiving. I've followed him his whole career, and watch him now. He has 9 career catches, 6 last season to pair with 4 drops. He has trouble adjusting to bals anywhere outside his frame, and lets passes get into his pads. That means only the occaisonal short hello, how do you do throw in his direction. 

    And it certainly means ... get him off the field when you need long yardage and are short downs. He just doesn't offer that. 

    He's basically the last person I'd trust throwing the ball too on this offense. By miles. 

    He, most certainly, is not a multipurpose back.

    He's a two down back. 

    If he could even post a single season with 25-35 catches ... I'd be willing to examine improvement, but that isn't going to happen. 

    He's also basically nothing like Curtis Martin. I' going to guess you never actually watched Martin play. He was 5'11" 210 (same size as Vereen) and was a slashing runner. He was known for a quick spin, right before he was tackled, that would sometimes spin him off, but always result in a few extra yards. 

    He wasn't a contact runner like Ridley, he wasn't a straight ahead runner like Ridley, he was a lot smaller than Ridley, and a lot more gifted than Ridley at receiving. 

    Martin is the quintessential 3 down/all-purpose back ... like Marshall Faulk, Tomlinson, Edgerrin James, Brian Westbrook, Roger Craig, and Thurman Thomas. Ridley simply is not in that class. 

    Ridley is a two-down banger. That is all. No need to make the guy out to be more than he is. We all love him ... but this vision of Ridley being an all-purpose solution is fictional. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to zbellino's comment:


    It's not about 4 yards. It doesn't happen regularly like that. What that translates to is really 5-6 really long ones that chew up a bunch of field that the current KRs aren't getting. ~21 yards means you are essentially taking what the kicker gives you out to the 20 nearly every single time. A 25.6 means every third of fourth return is 50 yards. Over the course of a season, that could be about eight 40-60 yard returns more than what you get averaging 21. 

    That's more than significant. It's huge. It's like giving your offense 24 first downs. That's a whole lot more significant that what keeping a JAG like Bolden on the bench gives you over the course of the season. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Near as I can tell, he had an 83 yarder in week 1 (vs. AZ), a 69 yarder in week 4 (StL) and a 101 yard TD in week 11 (Mia). Other than that his longest was a 42 yarder vs. SF in week 15. The Pats had a 104 yd TD by McCourty and not much else (a 32 yarder by Edelman was next best).  

    So, he'd be an improvement if he does what he did last year, but last year was a career year for him (based on average) and he's 30 now, so it seems unreasonable to expect him to duplicate that. My view is the cost (in roster spot and salary cap space) doesn't justify the ROI. By the way, if you take the top three returns out, his average is 22.1.

    Whether you keep Bolden or someone else (Justin Green perhaps), my view is a KR in the current NFL is a luxury.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     


    It's not about 4 yards. It doesn't happen regularly like that. What that translates to is really 5-6 really long ones that chew up a bunch of field that the current KRs aren't getting. ~21 yards means you are essentially taking what the kicker gives you out to the 20 nearly every single time. A 25.6 means every third of fourth return is 50 yards. Over the course of a season, that could be about eight 40-60 yard returns more than what you get averaging 21. 

    That's more than significant. It's huge. It's like giving your offense 24 first downs. That's a whole lot more significant that what keeping a JAG like Bolden on the bench gives you over the course of the season. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Near as I can tell, he had an 83 yarder in week 1 (vs. AZ), a 69 yarder in week 4 (StL) and a 101 yard TD in week 11 (Mia). Other than that his longest was a 42 yarder vs. SF in week 15. The Pats had a 104 yd TD by McCourty and not much else (a 32 yarder by Edelman was next best).  

    So, he'd be an improvement if he does what he did last year, but last year was a career year for him (based on average) and he's 30 now, so it seems unreasonable to expect him to duplicate that. My view is the cost (in roster spot and salary cap space) doesn't justify the ROI. By the way, if you take the top three returns out, his average is 22.1.

    Whether you keep Bolden or someone else (Justin Green perhaps), my view is a KR in the current NFL is a luxury.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, you just described a great kick returner. As far as I can tell, you can subtract the top plays of anyone and make them look worse. 

    I'd say a luxury would be keeping JAGS like Bolden and Green on the roster at the expense of having a weak third phase. 

    The NFL is a three phase game man. Special teams are not a luxury. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

     

     

    Yeah they might not be top5 in straight rushing, though I certainly wouldn't be shocked if they were on the upper end of that group, but I agree, if you add in what Vereen is going to be able to do getting flexed out of the backfield in 11 packages and 2TE, I could see something like a team with the most "all-purpose" RB yards. 

    The triumverate of Ridley, Vereen, and Blount looks really, really good. I don't even have to mention it's the best thing they've had since Dillon (healthy) and Faulk, but I think as time wears on, you'll be able to measure it against Dill, et all, but others like Curtis Martin and Megget.

    Personally, I'd like to see more of Vereen in preseason. I love me some Ridley, but Vereen is more dynamic in that Curtis Martin type build. As you allude to he is a RB you can measure AP yards from. He had at least one bad interior run last night, but another several that were very good, and this is what bears watching with the kid. 

     

     

     



    I'd like to see Bolden and Blount each get another start, Vereen will be a home run hitting third down back/change of pace back, but we don't want him getting hurt either.  Ridley is more like Curtis Martin than Dillon in my eyes, solid at every facet but not an overwhelming runner like Dillon was; he or Bolden are interchangeable.  Blount will be an interesting watch on whether he makes it or not...

     

     

    With so much depth of talent, using a "run by committee approach" is a luxury we are lucky to have.

     



    Ridley is a lot bigger than Martin, and not nearly the receiving threat, though. He's pretty much straight ahead meat and potatoes runner in my eyes, and not the open field threat that Martin was. I could never see him hauling in the 45 or so passes a season that Martin did. He just doesn't have the torso flexibilty or instincts for that.

     

    Vereen could just be a change of pace guy, but I don't understand the "getting hurt" bit. He doesn't have a track record of injury, and is more than big enough to take every down hits. 

    He's a little bigger than Curtis Martin himself, and he had 3500 plus career carries. 

    I would like to see both of them out there ... but I think Vereen's ability to catch the ball, and make something happen in the open field make me think that a more even split would be warranted if he can show that he's not at a loss on between the tackles running. 

    I'm not impressed with Bolden, but I think Blount adds something dynamic here. It IS quite a committee!

     

     




    If Bolden is cut, what a waste. The kid will be immediately scooped up and likely help a team out big time. My fear is the Jets will take him with their RB group so weak and injury prone.

     

     

    Also, Curtis Martin was NEVER a pass receiver out of the backfield. Ever. I have no idea why anyone would say that.

    BB should keep 5 RBs and 3 TEs.    2 QBs. If they can stash Kline on the PS as a Guard/C type, they can just carry the 7 OL and keep the 5 RBs.  

    NE would have the best RB group in the NFL by a longshot. Unless, of course, BB cuts Leon Washington an RB who has shown nothing on kick offs so far.  I'd rather keep Bolden than Leon Washington.

    Bolden hasn't impressed you because he's barely played.  That's how deep the RB group is.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Did I miss something in your post? Please tell me that even you couldn't be so wrong about something.

    [/QUOTE]

    What were you expecting from the simpleton that blames Brady for the team shortfalls of recent years, intelligence?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: The Run Game

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    To nobody in particular...

    Develin has zero chance at making this roster.  Huey is much better as a fullback and Blount is much better as a big bruising back.  It will come down to Bolden and Blount, Bolden plays special teams pretty well and has been solid in blitz pickup, Blount not so much. 

    I want to keep them both but I have to think the intangibles allows Bolden to stick, but there may be contract issues I haven't taken into account.  Any capologists out there, if we decide to keep Bolden can we trade Blount in the preseason (now) and get fair value in return, I'm sure some team starved for a RB would be interested?  If all we got back was the pick we used on Demps it would be worth it.

    Washington absolutely makes this team, he is one of, if not THE best kick returner in the league, he is also very good as a third down back should Vereen get hurt, we wouldn't skip a beat.

    Rusty; Martin was an all purpose back he could do it all, so can Ridely and Bolden.

    Rkarp; ridiculous, Tampa isn't just one of the best run stopping teams, they'll be one of the top rated defenses in the NFL provided they stay healthy.

     



    Woozy, the statistics lie. The Bucs defensive backfield was worse then the Pats last year, so the opposition tended not to run on them, prefering pass. Hence the trade for Revis and the signing of Goldson.

    Bowers has been a disappointment, cant set the edge against the run, and really hasnt been able to get to the QB. Clayton did have 7.5 sacks 2 years ago, but is a pass rusher, not a run stopper. McCoy was a pro bowler, and desrvedly so. Gibson is simply a body...

    Tampa's DL is a bit undersized, no 320-340 DT's, and no depth. Very young as well. Pats knew handily their OL would have its way gainst the BUcs running the ball.

     
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