1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 12:49 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
       I'm still waiting for one person to come forth and logically defend the Wilson pick at #48, with something other than, "If BB did it, it must be right." 
    Posted by TexasPat3

    Why is it that anyone needs to defend the pick? It's done, and it isn't going to change. We all hope he works out. End of story.

    We are all very aware by your 50+ posts about this subject that you are clearly upset with the pick. Why continue b!tching & moaning about it? Do you really need someone to defend it? We all want great picks.....my God man...get over it already!!
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 12:59 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB : No disrespect TP, your criticism of the pick unless I'm misunderstanding it, is based on your perception and that of others none of whom were associated with the Pats scouting and selection process.  Unless you were directly involved or know someone who was your criticism doesn't rise much above that of rumor.  Again, unless I'm wrong about the basis of your criticism I don't really feel compelled to defend a process that has withstood the test of time.  Does BB ever miss?  We all know that he does.  Was this a reach or a bad pick?  Only time will tell.
    Posted by ATJ


         BB has whiffed on 68% of his first-third round picks, from 2006-10. 

         Even if this Wilson kid pans out, was it really necessary to take him at #48? Couldn't and shouldn't have BB traded down from 48? Do you deny that other players who were available at #48, such as Vinny Curry, Devon Still, Jerel Worthy, Kendall Reyes, Brandon Thompson, CBs Josh Robinson and/or Trumaine Johnson, better prospects than Wilson? Was Wilson that much better a prospect than safety Brandon Taylor of LSU, who had a better track record than Wilson, and was a team captain? Taylor was taken in round three.  

         Sorry...but I see the above as legitimate questions. Was BB that concerned that San Diego would take Wilson, at #49? Even if so...was Wilson that much better a prospect than Brandon Taylor, who was taken in round three?  

         The Pats missed the boat here. They could have and should have traded down, and...with later round picks, could have still gotten their man. Or, if San Diego did take Wilson, they had a fall-back option with Taylor. If no trade-down, either Still, Worthy, or Thompson should have been the choice at #48.

         Have you just read where the Pats resigned the ancient Gerard Warren? Would that have been necessary if the Pats had added one of those young DTs? Wouldn't it be great for the DT rotation to infuse it with some youth...and give BB the option of occasionally resting the 30 year old Vince Wilfolk?    

     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:05 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB : Why is it that anyone needs to defend the pick? It's done, and it isn't going to change. We all hope he works out. End of story. We are all very aware by your 50+ posts about this subject that you are clearly upset with the pick. Why continue b!tching & moaning about it? Do you really need someone to defend it? We all want great picks.....my God man...get over it already!!
    Posted by tanbass


         Last I checked, this is a football discussion forum. My opinion on a football  related issue is being attacked. I'm defending it. If that bothers you, don't read.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:10 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :      BB has whiffed on 68% of his first-third round picks, from 2006-10.       Even if this Wilson kid pans out, was it really necessary to take him at #48? Couldn't and shouldn't have BB traded down from 48? Do you deny that other players who were available at #48, such as Vinny Curry, Devon Still, Jerel Worthy, Kendall Reyes, Brandon Thompson, CBs Josh Robinson and/or Trumaine Johnson, better prospects than Wilson? Was Wilson that much better a prospect than safety Brandon Taylor of LSU, who had a better track record than Wilson, and was a team captain? Taylor was taken in round three.        Sorry...but I see the above as legitimate questions. Was BB that concerned that San Diego would take Wilson, at #49? Even if so...was Wilson that much better a prospect than Brandon Taylor, who was taken in round three?        The Pats missed the boat here. They could have and should have traded down, and...with later round picks, could have still gotten their man. Or, if San Diego did take Wilson, they had a fall-back option with Taylor. If no trade-down, either Still, Worthy, or Thompson should have been the choice at #48.      Have you just read where the Pats resigned the ancient Gerard Warren? Would that have been necessary if the Pats had added one of those young DTs? Wouldn't it be great for the DT rotation to infuse it with some youth...and give BB the option of occasionally resting the 30 year old Vince Wilfolk?    
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Understood.  My understanding of your criticism was indeed correct.  Thanks for replying.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:14 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :      Last I checked, this is a football discussion forum. My opinion on a football  related issue is being attacked. I'm defending it. If that bothers you, don't read.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    I'm not attacking your opinion whatsoever. But after reading the same thing 50 times....it's getting old. We get it, you don't like the pick. Nobody (that I've seen) is praising the pick like it's going to be a genious move. Yes, we might have got him later....but we will never know. Your posts come off as if you are losing sleep over one lousy pick. I respect your posts as I have been following them for years here. But this time you sound as if you are ready to jump off the Tobin.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:14 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :      Last I checked, this is a football discussion forum. My opinion on a football  related issue is being attacked. I'm defending it. If that bothers you, don't read.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    so who is TexasPat with 598 posts ? One of you sounds like the original tp , the other not so much.
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:37 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :      Kiper hasn't been critical of BB in the past. This Wilson thing is the first time that I've seen him come close to being critical of Belichick.      I'm still waiting for one person to come forth and logically defend the Wilson pick at #48, with something other than, "If BB did it, it must be right." 
    Posted by TexasPat3



    Tex, with all due respect (and recognizing that your opinion about the value Wilson provided at 48 could be right), many folks have provided logical reasons for BB making the choice he did.  To summarize as succinctly as possible, BB:

    1. Must have felt Wilson was the best of the safety candidates for the defense BB plans to run next year;

    2. BB must have feared that other teams were interested in Wilson and might well pick him as early as the second round;

    3. BB did not want to risk losing him.

    Maybe BB was wrong--maybe Wilson isn't that good and/or no team would have drafted him in the second round--but BB must have thought otherwise.  We'll never know what other teams thought of Wilson. We will, however, get to see whether the pick pans out or not . . . if Wilson turns out to be a solid player on defense and/or a great player on special teams, then I think the pick will have been a good one.  If he ends up another Butler, Weatley, etc., then the pick will go down as another of BB's mid-round busts.  

    At this point, though, it's pointless to argue.  Now, we just have to wait and see what becomes of this kid . . .

    I will add that having looked at a number of his games on film and also a number of the games of other safeties who were available at the time, I think BB may have made a good decision.  Iloka, for instance, does not look all that impressive either on some of the film I've seen and I can see why BB would have liked Wilson better than him.


     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:39 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB : Tex, with all due respect (and recognizing that your opinion about the value Wilson provided at 48 could be right), many folks have provided logical reasons for BB making the choice he did.  To summarize as succinctly as possible, BB: 1. Must have felt Wilson was the best of the safety candidates for the defense BB plans to run next year; 2. BB must have feared that other teams were interested in Wilson and might well pick him as early as the second round; 3. BB did not want to risk losing him. Maybe BB was wrong--maybe Wilson isn't that good and/or no team would have drafted him in the second round--but BB must have thought otherwise.  We'll never know what other teams thought of Wilson. We will, however, get to see whether the pick pans out or not . . . if Wilson turns out to be a solid player on defense and/or a great player on special teams, then I think the pick will have been a good one.  If he ends up another Butler, Weatley, etc., then the pick will go down as another of BB's mid-round busts.   At this point, though, it's pointless to argue.  Now, we just have to wait and see what becomes of this kid . . . I will add that having looked at a number of his games on film and also a number of the games of other safeties who were available at the time, I think BB may have made a good decision.  Iloka, for instance, does not look all that impressive either on some of the film I've seen and I can see why BB would have liked Wilson better than him.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


         I'm not arguing. I'm venting...LOL!!!
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:40 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :      I'm not arguing. I'm venting...LOL!!!
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Now that I understand.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:43 PM EDT

    Hey - the whole draft is a crap shoot. The GMs and others involved in the process on a team have at best a 50% hit rate in the first 4 rounds. And of those 50% hits, at least half of them were drafted in the wrong round. And these guys are being paid to get it right.
    Kiper and all the other talking heads are being paid to have an opinion and express it on TV. And they are going to be lucky to have the same hit rate - 50% - only they are evaluating 128 players in the first four rounds, whereas the GMs just get graded on their 4 picks.
    At this point I give both Kiper and BB each a 50% chance of being correct on Wilson - given BBs recent record on drafting DBs in the first three rounds, a 50% chance of being right is generous.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 1:51 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :       Was Wilson that much better a prospect than safety Brandon Taylor of LSU, who had a better track record than Wilson, and was a team captain? Taylor was taken in round three.        
    Posted by TexasPat3



    The film I've seen of Taylor includes a lot of poor angles and missed tackles. Honestly, from the film I've seen, Wilson is the better choice.  I'm not a scout, but looking at film of Taylor and Iloka (and comparing it with film of Wilson) has made me think more highly of the Wilson pick.  Wilson just looks like the most disciplined of the three players and the one most often in the right position to make a play. 
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:18 PM EDT

    Great to see 6'4 330 pound Gerrard Warren Come back. Exactly what we needed, another beast to sub in for VW. I think Deadrick gets more playing time this year as he is finally healthy going into the season. Better player in the middle but was forced to play for Ellis last year.

    Over all VW,Fanine,Love,Deadrick,Warren,Scott,Jones,and even Myron Pryor give us great depth on the D-line. A lot of beef to open things up guys like Bequette,Hightower,Nink and even mayo and Spikes to get after the QB.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:20 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB : The film I've seen of Taylor includes a lot of poor angles and missed tackles. Honestly, from the film I've seen, Wilson is the better choice.  I'm not a scout, but looking at film of Taylor and Iloka (and comparing it with film of Wilson) has made me think more highly of the Wilson pick.  Wilson just looks like the most disciplined of the three players and the one most often in the right position to make a play. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid



    Yeah, they were in on Taylor, too, but clearly BB liked WIlson better. Whoops! Kiper had Taylor ranked higher, so BB should have listened to Kiper!
    lol
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:22 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    Great to see 6'4 330 pound Gerrard Warren Come back. Exactly what we needed, another beast to sub in for VW. I think Deadrick gets more playing time this year as he is finally healthy going into the season. Better player in the middle but was forced to play for Ellis last year. Over all VW,Fanine,Love,Deadrick,Warren,Scott,Jones,and even Myron Pryor give us great depth on the D-line. A lot of beef to open things up guys like Bequette,Hightower,Nink and even mayo and Spikes to get after the QB.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    Sweet!  Yeah, Pryor too.  Really like him. Damn. This is going to be really good camp competition and whoever is the rotational group, it's going to be really experienced and versatile.

    Very nice.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:23 PM EDT

    I`ve been listening to Kiper for a long time and I never heard him say once that he thinks he knows more than coaches and GM`s. So I have no idea why you people keep coming up with this stuff? As far as his criticizing certain teams picks etc, he`s just doing the job that he`s supposed to do for espn. Belichick don`t care what he says and neither do I. He often says himself that sometimes he`s right and sometimes he`s been way wrong. Kiper`s not afraid to admit when he was wrong about a pick, and I repeat, have never heard him put himself above any coach or GM. Belichick`s not perfect either and has been wrong with more than a few of his past picks to.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:24 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB : Yeah, they were in on Taylor, too, but clearly BB liked WIlson better. Whoops! Kiper had Taylor ranked higher, so BB should have listened to Kiper! lol
    Posted by BassFishing


    At this point, there's enough film posted on YouTube of all the safeties for anyone to go out and make his own assessments.  No need to listen to Kiper. Believe me, if you're worried about Wilson because of Kiper and all the other talking heads, go out and watch the available film.  You'll all feel a lot better, because it's clear BB knows what he's doing.  

    I don't know if Wilson will pan out--BB has had his share of busts in mid rounds--but having spent some time watching Wilson and watching the other safeties, I'm starting to feel good about this pick.  If nothing else, Wilson is the anti-Merriweather in terms of discipline and understanding what's going on.  
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:28 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    World turned upside down . . . and Kiper's hair is still perfectly in place. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    It's plastic
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:43 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB :      BB has whiffed on 68% of his first-third round picks, from 2006-10.       Even if this Wilson kid pans out, was it really necessary to take him at #48? Couldn't and shouldn't have BB traded down from 48? Do you deny that other players who were available at #48, such as Vinny Curry, Devon Still, Jerel Worthy, Kendall Reyes, Brandon Thompson, CBs Josh Robinson and/or Trumaine Johnson, better prospects than Wilson? Was Wilson that much better a prospect than safety Brandon Taylor of LSU, who had a better track record than Wilson, and was a team captain? Taylor was taken in round three.        Sorry...but I see the above as legitimate questions. Was BB that concerned that San Diego would take Wilson, at #49? Even if so...was Wilson that much better a prospect than Brandon Taylor, who was taken in round three?        The Pats missed the boat here. They could have and should have traded down, and...with later round picks, could have still gotten their man. Or, if San Diego did take Wilson, they had a fall-back option with Taylor. If no trade-down, either Still, Worthy, or Thompson should have been the choice at #48.      Have you just read where the Pats resigned the ancient Gerard Warren? Would that have been necessary if the Pats had added one of those young DTs? Wouldn't it be great for the DT rotation to infuse it with some youth...and give BB the option of occasionally resting the 30 year old Vince Wilfolk?    
    Posted by TexasPat3



    Wilson was a 4 year player and 3 year starter and WAS a team captain, he played outstanding in 2011...

    AT ILLINOIS
    2011 - Senior: Honorable mention All-Big Ten selection by the coaches ... Team captain ... Named team's outstanding defensive back at the annual postseason banquet ... Started all 13 games ... Finished third on the team with 81 tackles ... Notched seven tackles and one TFL in win over UCLA in Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl ... Recorded seven tackles and one PBU against Minnesota ... Posted seven tackles and one TFL against Wisconsin ... Led the Illini with 11 tackles, one fumble recovery and one interception against Michigan ... Recorded six tackles, one forced fumble and one PBU against Ohio State ... Led the team with 11 total tackles, a career-best 3.5 TFLs, one sack and returned a fumble 66 yards for a touchdown in victory over Indiana ... Posted six tackles and 0.5 TFL against Northwestern ... Recorded seven tackles, one PBU and one QB hurry against Western Michigan ... Tied team-high with eight tackles and had a half-TFL and a PBU in win over Arizona State ... Tied for team lead with five tackles and had one PBU in win over South Dakota State.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 2:57 PM EDT

    Does BB make the draft picks all by himself? Does he just go up to Mr. Kraft and say I don't care what anyone else thinks, I've just got a hunch? I wonder if the scouting department had any say in the Wilson pick? How long can you beat a dead horse to death? It's time to move on TexasPat and like the rest of BB's picks for a stronger defense next year. 
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 3:12 PM EDT

    It's pretty clear the stability with the scouts in recent years, grooming Caserio in the Pioli role and adding Reese, the Pats infrastructure is more streamlined and better off than it was in 2008 and 2009 with Dimitroff and Piolo distracted and leaving the organization.

    What's comical is, if you read the thread at Gang Green, the morons over there keep saying how BB hasn't had good drafts since Pioli left. That's not the case at all.  The last few Pioli-related drafts 2006, 2007 and 2008 were some of team's weaker yields.  2006 was the worst, 2007 was a FA bonanaza and pretty one dimensional with the Moss/Welker concept and 2008 was a weak draft class overall.

    Since 2009, BB's drafts have steadily improved, with the landmark 2010 draft which Pioli was nowhere near. 

    Do Jets fans practice being morons?

    Of course, this is their way of being incredibly stupid, ignorant or intentionally dumb in order to discredit BB.

    If no desired employee of the NE patriots ever left here whether it be cap related or staff related, the bumps in the road never would have occurred. THis could be Weis and Crennel leaving, Manboobs up an leaving, Branch being traded for a dumb holdout, or the Dimitroff/Pioli exits......Dont let anyone ever tell you organizational stability is meaningless.  The Jets have been "all in" for 5 years with nothing to show for it.

    NE is all in now and is poised for a series of SB runs.

    Constant staff disruption usually crushes most orgaizations, but BB has done a nice job keeping the ship afloat in these areas overall.  Pees was an on the fly hire, but that was what it was on the heels of Manboobs's situation.

    It should be very interesting to see how teams like Pitt and Baltimore fare as they get a lot older and may possibly lose people both on the staff and on the roster here.

     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 3:50 PM EDT

    how can a six rounder become one of the best players of all time? where did mel had brady rated in the 2000 draft? where did all other teams had him, including NE? I for one don't put much stock as to where a player is drafted, I don't assign a value to the slot x player was drafted. 1st rounders have been bust, #1 overall pick have been bust, there have been hit and miss all over the draft so go figure if that value chart really makes sense. I only use the value chart just for trades, to see what it would take to move to certain spots,that's about it. Player A could have a higher value to team x, but it could also have a lower value to team y. Let's just wait and see like we do with every other pick to see if they pan out.

    Only time will tell if he was the right pick, but is useless to put a value on the slot and ignore the TRUE value of the player to the team he was drafted to.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 7:36 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    Great to see 6'4 330 pound Gerrard Warren Come back. Exactly what we needed, another beast to sub in for VW. I think Deadrick gets more playing time this year as he is finally healthy going into the season. Better player in the middle but was forced to play for Ellis last year. Over all VW,Fanine,Love,Deadrick,Warren,Scott,Jones,and even Myron Pryor give us great depth on the D-line. A lot of beef to open things up guys like Bequette,Hightower,Nink and even mayo and Spikes to get after the QB.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    A long-shot possibility for DT, Marcus Foston (an UDFA), Miami DT, 6'1", 301lbs. was a highly regarded DT two years ago but.... similar to Poe.... seemed to take plays off.  Benched 35 at the Combine (very strong!) and seemed able to penetrate..at will...but only when he decided to.  BB will probably bring in him to learn if the inconsistency was more a result of being out of shape...or lack of stamina...or lack of motivation...etc... A potential back-up for VW if his motor can be turned on.
     

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    Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB

    posted at 4/30/2012 8:22 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: The World Turned Upside Down - Kiper Defers to BB:
    It's a win win for Kiper. By saying he'll defer he admits that he might not have all the data that they have on the kid so if he does turn out well he doesn't look bad and built in an excuse. If Wilson ends up busting then Kiper then they say, I deferred to their scouts thinking they had extra information but I never said I thought they were right. Just Kiper covering his butt either way. I might not like Breer but I at least respect that he thought BB reached and said so. Now there might be a reason that he did (ie at that point he had only 2 picks left and it didn't look like they were able to trade back. Additionally they maybe they didn't like anyone at #48 and decided to attack the most pressing need first with a player they felt ranked higher then others. Wilson), BB could of temporarily went insane, or they really did feel like he was the BPA at that moment. We may never know the thinking but overall I think everyone would agree that we had a very solid draft.
    Posted by PatsEng


    these are all my thoughts as well eng
     

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