Thinking Outside Of The Box

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    Thinking Outside Of The Box

    Let me first offer a disclaimer: I've been a Patriots fan in Virginia since the 70's, and I've suffered through many frustrating seasons. I'm not from the Boston area, but I love my Patriots! Been to a couple of games in both stadiums, and it was like being in heaven seeing so many Patriots fans in one place! I believe Tom Brady is the best quarterback ever to wear an NFL uniform, without him (over the past decade) the Patriots would have been just average IMO.

    The lost to Baltimore was frustrating on multiple levels. 1. Because we all know our Pats can play much better than what was exhibited on Sunday. 2. The Ravens didn't really play that well either, but they played better and well enough to take the game. 3. The Patriots don't possess "enough" speed (in key areas) to crush teams like the Ravens and the Giants. If we all could participated in a post season think tank session with the Patriots ownership and coaches, and was asked to think "outside of the box" for a realistic solution to defeat teams like Baltimore and NY, what would you propose? Remember, the 07 team had the field stretching receivers with Moss and Stallworth, and a younger Brady.This would be my "outside of the box" suggestion:

    While I still believe Brady can get the Patriots back to another AFC Championship game or two, or maybe to another Superbowl or two, teams built like the Ravens and Giants will always stand as a serious threat to do what happened Sunday. IMO more speed is needed in the engine as this game gets faster and faster each season. Trade Brady (35), Welker (31) and Ballard (25)  to Carolina for Newton (23) and Carolina's first round pick (#14). Implement the read option offense with Newton, draft Cordarrelle Patterson (6'3, 4.46) with the Carolina pick, resign Talib, and draft the best available defensive lineman with our own first round pick (#29).

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_4160947. Show user_4160947's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to VAPATRIOT's comment:

    Let me first offer a disclaimer: I've been a Patriots fan in Virginia since the 70's, and I've suffered through many frustrating seasons. I'm not from the Boston area, but I love my Patriots! Been to a couple of games in both stadiums, and it was like being in heaven seeing so many Patriots fans in one place! I believe Tom Brady is the best quarterback ever to wear an NFL uniform, without him (over the past decade) the Patriots would have been just average IMO.

    The lost to Baltimore was frustrating on multiple levels. 1. Because we all know our Pats can play much better than what was exhibited on Sunday. 2. The Ravens didn't really play that well either, but they played better and well enough to take the game. 3. The Patriots don't possess "enough" speed (in key areas) to crush teams like the Ravens and the Giants. If we all could participated in a post season think tank session with the Patriots ownership and coaches, and was asked to think "outside of the box" for a realistic solution to defeat teams like Baltimore and NY, what would you propose? Remember, the 07 team had the field stretching receivers with Moss and Stallworth, and a younger Brady.This would be my "outside of the box" suggestion:

    While I still believe Brady can get the Patriots back to another AFC Championship game or two, or maybe to another Superbowl or two, teams built like the Ravens and Giants will always stand as a serious threat to do what happened Sunday. IMO more speed is needed in the engine as this game gets faster and faster each season. Trade Brady (35), Welker (31) and Ballard (25)  to Carolina for Newton (23) and Carolina's first round pick (#14). Implement the read option offense with Newton, draft Cordarrelle Patterson (6'3, 4.46) with the Carolina pick, resign Talib, and draft the best available defensive lineman with our own first round pick (#29).



    I like your outside the box thinking and agree it may be time.  Cam Newton would be a terrific target but I'm skeptical that he's within reach.  I firmly believe that "read-option" QBs will have about 3 -4 more months of shelf-life in a rapidly changing NFL.  Viscious hits like that to Ridley or those absorbed by RG III will doom this gimmick soon.  A mobile QB is, however, a boon in certain circumstances.

     

    My thoughts about the game after a cooling off period are as follows.  The Ravens were the better team by far.  On our best day, it would have been close but we stunk.  Just think, Flacco has been better than Brady in 4 straight outings.  When Talib went down in the 1st qtr, we were back to the same pathetic collection of DBs we had when we started the year (and went 3-3).

    My thoughts going forward.  Spend money in FA or trade for (in this order)

    1.       A TALL aggressive CB to defend the passing game (our guys are midgets and weak tacklers).

    2.       A pass-rushing/sack expert for Left DE

    3.       A tall, speedy #1 WR (like Moss in 07).  This offense gets bogged down in the middle of the field after short dink and dunk passes.

    4.       An intimidating presence somewhere on the defense.  We play like little girls out there against good physical teams.

    5.       A punt/kick-off return specialist.

    6.       Dare I say it, a new young QB

     

    In my opinion our defense is fundamentally flawed.  Two years ago, Belichick changed his defense from a 3-4 to a 4-3 and the results have been a disaster.  He was trying to copy the Giants, who beat him in the SB.  The problem, of course, is that their front 4 are All-Pros and ours, not so much.  Personally, I think this change has neutralized Wilfork.  He is immensely strong but slow with all the weight he carries.  Folks don’t realize that the front 4 of the Giants are smallish but FAST!  We have lacked a true defensive end since Belicheck had a hissy fit about Richard Seymour’s effort level and his pay grade (BB has done this many times- Assante Samuel, the first Deion Branch, Ted Washington, even Ty Law).  Now we have a hybrid, patch-work defense with 3 slow linebackers that can’t run down RBs on the outside or stay with tight ends in coverage.  It is unconceivable that Belicheck could go into 2 straight off-seasons with the same pitiful collection of DBs.  This seems to be an ego/arrogance thing that blinds him to reality.  In effect he is saying “I can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear” and the results are predictable.  Unfortunately, the Pats can’t simply turn a switch and go back to the 3-4 because of our slow linebackers.  We are stuck unless they blow the whole thing up.

     

    My comments about the offense are much simpler.  The need for a speed burner WR on the outside is just too obvious.  We have so many guys running short and intermediate routes out there they bump into each other.  This helps the other team’s defense too since they are never more than 2 large strides away from coverage.  It is absurd. 

     

    Sadly, Tom’s skills have eroded to the point that he is not an effective playoff QB.  He hears footsteps too often and gets jittery.  This results in poor throws.  All season, he has been prone to underthrown balls, poor accuracy, and even poor decision making.  He’s a dinosaur back there.  He has lost his mojo too.  His competitiveness on the sidelines is gone completely.  I wonder what is he thinking when his head is down on the bench.  He should be yelling It’s OK. We’ll get it back when he is off the field.

     

    I would trade Brady tomorrow for an early #1 pick and any skill player in my list of needs above.  By the way, Mallet is not the answer either.  He is too slow-footed and has difficulty getting quick reads on coverage.  My solution is to pry Matt Flynn away from Seattle.  He is young, mobile and deadly accurate.  There was talk last summer that he was the better QB compared to Russell Wilson.  Pete Carroll was just really keen on an option-based running attack.  If the competition was even close, the guy has to be OK.  By the way, he came to Foxboro as a backup when Aaron Rodgers was hurt about 2 years ago and passed for over 450 yards.  Tom Brady had to pull out a miraculous finish to beat him by a smidgeon.

    I would not be opposed to trading Vince Wilfork if they got value in return.  He was INVISIBLE on Sunday and that is who he is in big games.

    I would trade either Mayo or Spikes.  They are duplicates of each other- strong tacklers but extremely weak in pass coverage.

    I let Welker walk………  He has made far too many key drops and that is what he gets paid to do.  The short passing game allows for easy catches (which is why his stats are so good).  He is supposed to catch’em and run for 5 or 6 extra yards.  He is doing neither these days (age and a LOT of hits to his body).

    They have to negotiate hard for Talib.  He is the ONLY talented DB they have.  If it gets too pricey, at least they tried.

    Trade Mankins.  He’s been a cancer on the team for 2 years and his skills are vastly overrated.  The O-line performs the same with him as without him.

     

    Basically, Father Time has caught up to Brady.  The window closed the minute Welker dropped that pass in last year’s SB.  We are now like the Celtics trying to win with old guys in a young man’s game.

     

    Some folks will be offended and rip me to pieces.  But this was done in the spirit of thinking outside of the box.  I am a fan and will continue no matter what happens.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from NEGAME2. Show NEGAME2's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    # 1 Carolina is not going to trade Newton for an aging quarterback no matter how good he is
    # 2 Welker has to be franchised before he can be traded. and there is no way that cheap pr**k Richardson would pick up that kind of money for a receiver no matter how good he is.
    # 3 Carolina is not going to pick up Brady's contract (see above for the reason) and why should he when he is paying Newton under the new rookie contract scale
    # 4 the new NFL is all about mobile quarter backs who can run a college system
    # 5 all of the above make your  out of the box ideas moot.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    #1 - I don't want Newton, he's yet another gimmick run first QB who I don't see as having long term success in the league.

    #2 - agree with Game, you have to franchise Welker and then who's going to trade anything good for a slightly older Welker with a huge payday 

    #3 - Ballard has potential but no one knows what he'll be coming off his injury a year removed from the system. Why would anyone trade anything good for him?

    I like the idea of out of the box thinking but I think you are going about it in the wrong direction. For instance you mentioned the Giants and Balt. Well one thing they have that really helps their secondary is a front 4 that can generate pressure without the blitz and a quick coverage LB. If you have Talib, Dennard, and McCourty that's a strong secondary that can punch you at the line. If you add a coverage LB/SS that can protect against dump offs and a front 4 that can generate pressure then that will go a long way to improving this D. As such I'm looking for someone to put next to Wilfork first and foremost.

    The other thing that Balt and Giants both have is not necessarily a guy that is a deep threat but a number of option that will out jump/fight for a ball. They have a number of larger receiving threats while the Pats just have Gronk essentially. If you add in a bigger WR who can fight for the ball along with a healthy Gronk all of a sudden this O changes from more of a finesse put the ball into narrow windows and get yac to one that in bad conditions or must have yards can just toss the ball up and let a receiver make a play. This takes a lot of pressure off of Brady to be perfect. I'm sure if Gronk was available on Sunday those missed 3rd and short opportunities would have been cut in half as Brady would have had a much bigger and large catching radius to hit then what was available

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    Kind of outside the box, but I'd put Wilfork's name (along with Jones) on a board and say, these are two guys we need to keep...everyone else is totally expendable. We can do without every single guy...trade them, cut them....doesn't matter. We can take all their salaries and do better.

    Now there are a few that are on the way to being good (Dennard, etc.), but the rest aren't going to get it done. Sorry. They are all replaceable.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Kind of outside the box, but I'd put Wilfork's name (along with Jones) on a board and say, these are two guys we need to keep...everyone else is totally expendable. We can do without every single guy...trade them, cut them....doesn't matter. We can take all their salaries and do better.

    Now there are a few that are on the way to being good (Dennard, etc.), but the rest aren't going to get it done. Sorry. They are all replaceable.



    Ok so on a team of 53 you want to get rid of them and replace them with FA's and draft picks... mthurl I know this is reactionary commenting but really? I think you can pick individuals like Arrington and Cole who shouldn't have even been starting at any point in the game but this is an overall good-great team who are missing piece not one that has a couple of pieces and is missing the puzzle. You add diversity to the WR core with a physical WR who fights for balls, if Talib stays healthy or replacement with someone as equally talented, you get a coverage LB, you get a rusher who can take advantage of having Wilfork next to him and suddenly this team is completely different. That's pieces that change this entire team. No need to blow it up

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tg19pats. Show tg19pats's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    Great question, not sure i have any solid answers. The idea of trading Brady worries me but can see why it is suggested.  I want young aggressive fearless players on my team, the cerebral approach has had it's run. I would call the lions and ask about suh, look around for a speed at the wide receiver position(need to do some research) and would love a high motor d end with speed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    Kind of outside the box, but I'd put Wilfork's name (along with Jones) on a board and say, these are two guys we need to keep...everyone else is totally expendable. We can do without every single guy...trade them, cut them....doesn't matter. We can take all their salaries and do better.

    Now there are a few that are on the way to being good (Dennard, etc.), but the rest aren't going to get it done. Sorry. They are all replaceable.

     



    Ok so on a team of 53 you want to get rid of them and replace them with FA's and draft picks... mthurl I know this is reactionary commenting but really? I think you can pick individuals like Arrington and Cole who shouldn't have even been starting at any point in the game but this is an overall good-great team who are missing piece not one that has a couple of pieces and is missing the puzzle. You add diversity to the WR core with a physical WR who fights for balls, if Talib stays healthy or replacement with someone as equally talented, you get a coverage LB, you get a rusher who can take advantage of having Wilfork next to him and suddenly this team is completely different. That's pieces that change this entire team. No need to blow it up

     



    No, no, no no....this is just a outside the box discussion. Not realistic...not going to happen. All I'm saying is that we (in my opinion) have to guys on defense that are irreplaceable. The rest are replaceable players....we could do better on some...worse on others, but in the end the finished product collectively wouldn't be worse If we spent the same cash.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    Kind of outside the box, but I'd put Wilfork's name (along with Jones) on a board and say, these are two guys we need to keep...everyone else is totally expendable. We can do without every single guy...trade them, cut them....doesn't matter. We can take all their salaries and do better.

    Now there are a few that are on the way to being good (Dennard, etc.), but the rest aren't going to get it done. Sorry. They are all replaceable.

     



    Ok so on a team of 53 you want to get rid of them and replace them with FA's and draft picks... mthurl I know this is reactionary commenting but really? I think you can pick individuals like Arrington and Cole who shouldn't have even been starting at any point in the game but this is an overall good-great team who are missing piece not one that has a couple of pieces and is missing the puzzle. You add diversity to the WR core with a physical WR who fights for balls, if Talib stays healthy or replacement with someone as equally talented, you get a coverage LB, you get a rusher who can take advantage of having Wilfork next to him and suddenly this team is completely different. That's pieces that change this entire team. No need to blow it up

     

     



    No, no, no no....this is just a outside the box discussion. Not realistic...not going to happen. All I'm saying is that we (in my opinion) have to guys on defense that are irreplaceable. The rest are replaceable players....we could do better on some...worse on others, but in the end the finished product collectively wouldn't be worse If we spent the same cash.

     



    Ok sorry for the misinturpertation on my part, just with the reactionary threads going around it sounded like another fire everyone comment, my bad

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    I would make Dennard and Hightower untouchable for now (Dennard was one of the only guys on D that showed up on Sunday).  They both showed enough their rookie years that with their low costs for the next few years I see no reason to move them.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    BB may need to make a decision soon on the longevity of TB. It's bee nice if TB was quicker, but the way to solve the problem is to have a better O-line and some fast big WRs who can get downfield and out jump DBs

     
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    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    why would carolina make that trade?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kjfitone. Show kjfitone's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    I agree with most of this. One thing that doesn't sit well around here is anyone critical of Brady. He would be the first person that I'd trade if any team would take him. He's past his prime and looks to be in a quick decline. As much as Brady has carried the team in the past he's going to be holding them back from winning over the next few years. He's still going to have a few big games against the doormats of the league but when he plays the better teams he's going to struggle big time. Its going to be interesting to see if Belichick does whats good for the team or sides with loyalty to Brady at the cost of the team.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to VAPATRIOT's comment:

    Patriots back to another AFC Championship game or two, or maybe to another Superbowl or two, teams built like the Ravens and Giants will always stand as a serious threat to do what happened Sunday. IMO more speed is needed in the engine as this game gets faster and faster each season. Trade Brady (35), Welker (31) and Ballard (25)  to Carolina for Newton (23) and Carolina's first round pick (#14). Implement the read option offense with Newton, draft Cordarrelle Patterson (6'3, 4.46) with the Carolina pick, resign Talib, and draft the best available defensive lineman with our own first round pick (#29).



    IMO - With Brady over the next two years, with a few tweaks to the existing roster, the PATS have an excellent chance of going into the playoffs and could potentially win another Super Bowl, despite the Brady's age and 'diminishing talent'. 

    However, getting rid of Brady, and installing a new QB (notwithstanding the Broncos success with Manning) will require a complete overhaul of the offense which I believe will require at least three years before bearing fruit.  (No more domination of the AFL East and putting playoffs in question.)

    Get the house in order with the addition of a cover CB, an intimidating S, a tall and speedy WR, a cover LB, and OL depth, and another 'big' on the defensive line, over the next two seasons and then bring in Brady's replacement whether it be a Wilson/RGIII/Kaepernick/Luck type QB or an experienced veteran like Flynn/Rivers/Romo. (don't laugh before you look up their stats).

     
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    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    Advice: Get back in the box.

     
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    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    Thinking outside of the box is great if you want to go through a couple years of, possibly, losing seasons and missing the playoffs by making so many wholesale changes.  Keeping Brady, and improving the team AROUND him is the best option then develop his replacement from within.  Lop off the best player on your team just to satisfy a spoiled fan base desire for another SB win is ridiculous and destroys the box.

    Besides, VAPATRIOT has made only 19 posts since 2008!  Where have you been, hibernating?

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

    It sounded so simple back then when the Ravens/Giants said all you have to do is hit Brady and he will rattle. Hell every QB gets hit right??  

    Well, THEY WERE RIGHT!!!! He's been playing like a scared rabbit ever since...Looking more like Tony Eason under pressure than Tom Terrific. If his "Scrambling" with his head on a swivel, always scanning for the hit instead of the OPEN FIELD in front of him, wasn't any indication of his "desire" to stay healthy more than win games then I'm afraid the rose colored glasses you sport just may be permanent. I am tired of the excuse makers. His sideline demeanor is more reminiscent of Kobe Bryant than The Leader he USED to be.

    Brady WAS The Man and for that I thank you. Now please take your Hollywood lifestyle and "Promises" of wanting to be considered better than Montana and finish out your career in Oakland for their Number's One and Two and call it even................Geno!!!!  Geno!!!

    I will GLADLY be the leader of the Tom isn't winning another BIG GAME for this team club.......P.S. TAKE PAUL PIERCE WITH YOU!!!!

    As "W" once infamously said...."BRING IT ON!!!!"




    Bunch of mindless nonsense.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

     

    It sounded so simple back then when the Ravens/Giants said all you have to do is hit Brady and he will rattle. Hell every QB gets hit right??  

    Well, THEY WERE RIGHT!!!! He's been playing like a scared rabbit ever since...Looking more like Tony Eason under pressure than Tom Terrific. If his "Scrambling" with his head on a swivel, always scanning for the hit instead of the OPEN FIELD in front of him, wasn't any indication of his "desire" to stay healthy more than win games then I'm afraid the rose colored glasses you sport just may be permanent. I am tired of the excuse makers. His sideline demeanor is more reminiscent of Kobe Bryant than The Leader he USED to be.

    Brady WAS The Man and for that I thank you. Now please take your Hollywood lifestyle and "Promises" of wanting to be considered better than Montana and finish out your career in Oakland for their Number's One and Two and call it even................Geno!!!!  Geno!!!

    I will GLADLY be the leader of the Tom isn't winning another BIG GAME for this team club.......P.S. TAKE PAUL PIERCE WITH YOU!!!!

    As "W" once infamously said...."BRING IT ON!!!!"

     




    Bunch of mindless nonsense.

     

     



    Any solutions of your own or just comments at the end of my posts??

     




    The only solution is to improve the mediocre team around him before he reaches social security eligibility.

    It's the same old story in virtually every one of these playoff losses. Nobody can catch. Nobody can run. Nobody can get open. Nobody can play D. But amidst all that Brady somehow has to have a great game. No QB who ever lived is going to have a great day stuck in the middle of that giant sucking sound.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Thinking Outside Of The Box

    In response to NEGAME2's comment:

    # 1 Carolina is not going to trade Newton for an aging quarterback no matter how good he is
    # 2 Welker has to be franchised before he can be traded. and there is no way that cheap pr**k Richardson would pick up that kind of money for a receiver no matter how good he is.
    # 3 Carolina is not going to pick up Brady's contract (see above for the reason) and why should he when he is paying Newton under the new rookie contract scale
    # 4 the new NFL is all about mobile quarter backs who can run a college system
    # 5 all of the above make your  out of the box ideas moot.



    This fad will last 5 years when they start dropping like flies.....  The amount of mobility I look for in a QB can be found in McNabb in his prime, Rogers, and luck.  I'd throw Newton in there, but he takes off too much although he is actually big enough to take those hits. 

    Wilson, Kaep, and Griffin are setting themselves up to be like Vick.  They WILL get knocked out of games eventually, and end up with multiple concussions.   

    The NFL has not changed.  Defense still wins championships.  Plain and simple.  Other then that the game is won in the trenches.  This mobility thing will now have extensive tape, and defenses will adjust just as the QB transition will fade. 

     

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