This is the s*** I don't like

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    This comes from Prolate Spheroid:

    There are studies.  Oddly, the one quoted below was widely publicized in Canada (where the CFL reviewed it), but doesn't seem to have been publicized much in the US.  Don't want to get into conspiracy theories but I do think it's odd that this American study wasn't reported (as far as I can tell) very much in America!
    ________________________________

    A University of North Carolina study is painting a sobering portrait of head trauma and the long-term affects on professional football players who take thousands of hits to the head over their careers.

    In what may be the most stunning revelation contained in the study, doctors determined that the life expectancy for all pro football players, from quarterbacks to kickers, is 55 years, while some insurance providers say it is 51 years.


    Conducted by the Matthew A. Gfeller Sport-Related Traumatic Brain Injury Research Center at UNC, the study found that repeatedly concussed NFL players have five times the rate of mild cognitive impairment than the average person, while retired NFLers suffer from Alzheimer's disease at a 37 per cent higher rate.


    In addition to concussions and permanent brain damage, researchers also pinpointed other concerns, including memory loss, blurred vision and reduced blood flow due to repeated blows to the head and body.


    The groundbreaking findings have caught the attention of the CFL and its players, who discussed the study at last week's CFL Players' Association meeting, according to a Globe and Mail report.


    The CFLPA board is interested in adopting the NFL's approach to curbing dangerous hits, which includes stiffer fines and suspensions.

    At least one player, Winnipeg Blue Bombers defensive lineman Doug Brown, hopes progress is made to protect pro football players of the future.

    "The culture of pro sports is there's a lot of denial. It's a young person's game and it's hard to see the light at the end of your career. It's like a rock star mentality," Brown told the Globe and Mail. "You work six months a year and play a game for a living. Unfortunately with us, it balances out. There's a payment to be made at the end of your career.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nbptbob. Show nbptbob's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    There aren't any people in this discussion who are entirely wrong, and none who are entirely right...except perhaps those who regret that Seau is gone. Each is a possible fraction of truth based on our current lack of genuine evidence. Conjecture based on weak or unavailable evidence is indeed speculation, and while it may amuse some of us, it doesn't get us any closer to the actual truth of the matter. Ernest Hemingway once observed that "it isn't one thing, or another thing that's true, it's that it's all true". For now, until more credible evidence comes in identifying the contributing factors that can be confidently established, all factors should remain in the equation, speculative or not.  We may not like some of them, but we not ready to rule anything out yet either.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like


    Well one thing they copuld do is use a safer hlemt
    which i believe there is

    the other is the players union should stop trying
    to have both sides of the argument

    now the NFLPA is fighting back on the Saiint player
    suspensions. If the players themselves don't want to
    protect themselves - then don't come whining later
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    I honstly don't see how any of the lawsuits against the NFL by the players will hold any weight. After all....didn't they all play at their own will? Nobody forced these guys out onto the field. They all knew it's a dangerous & violent sport. Once again, I feel like the lawyers of the world and their lawsuits are making this entire thing a lot worse than it should be.

    I think we all would vote for keeping these guys a safe as possible without completely ruining the way it's played. Hell, look at the helmets they use in Hockey...it's a joke....why on earth wouldnt they wear helmet at least as strong as a football helmet? And then they wonder why so many concussions? Really?

    Nobody is holding agun to these guys heads to play. They get paid millions to take that risk. I would hope that the league is doing everything to protect these guys to do what we all love to watch them do. RIP Jr.....
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from oh-my-beard. Show oh-my-beard's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: This is the s*** I don't like": I don't think it tells you much of anything he was thinking. Maybe he wanted an open casket for his mom. I think it's bizarre everyone is jumping on this concussion thing when he has never been listed as having a concussion in his career. Before he killed himself I never heard anything about him having concussion issues. Maybe he did, I don't know but it's a pretty big leap at this point. Had he had a history, had he talked about it, or even been diagnosed with some sort of depression maybe that's something to look at. That's a lot of assumptions. Right now it seems he just happened to kill himself at a time when concussions are big news. I would look at the more obvious reasons first. What was his situation with his family like, problems with his kids, his ex wife, financial problems. Those are the more obvious and common things. It seems like we are hearing hoofbeats and assuming Zebras here.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]
    The word concussion didn't exist in the NFL dictionary in Seau's hayday. He told his girlfreind he'd had concussions, and he complained about headaches. He KILLED himself. He admitted to having multiple concussions/post football head aches. Depressed people kill themselves. Studies show correlations between concussions and depression. It really isn't that big a leap.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]He is doing everything he can to avoid these kinds of things happening.
    Posted by oh-my-beard[/QUOTE]

    No he isn't. If he had any real interest in assuring safety in the game he would be progressively suspending the perpetrators rather than throwing paltry fines at them, which are merely a token gesture.


    If you want it safer, get rid of the clowns who make it unsafe.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

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    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]Well one thing they copuld do is use a safer hlemt which i believe there is the other is the players union should stop trying to have both sides of the argument now the NFLPA is fighting back on the Saiint player suspensions. If the players themselves don't want to protect themselves - then don't come whining later
    Posted by seawolfxs[/QUOTE]

    Completely agree with this.  I understand the NFLPA's job is to play advocate for their members, but that's the only sincerity they can claim while advocating for future safety while defending past sins.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to This is the s*** I don't like : No he isn't. If he had any real interest in assuring safety in the game he would be progressively suspending the perpetrators rather than throwing paltry fines at them, which are merely a token gesture. If you want it safer, get rid of the clowns who make it unsafe.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    +1

    Does anyone think James Harrison gives a $hit about a 25k fine?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to This is the s*** I don't like : No he isn't. If he had any real interest in assuring safety in the game he would be progressively suspending the perpetrators rather than throwing paltry fines at them, which are merely a token gesture. If you want it safer, get rid of the clowns who make it unsafe.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Suspensions, as we are seeing right now with the Saints players, are never an easy thing. They ALWAYS get challenged, and it's hard and costly to argue it either way. It's a progression, in a few years, I think hits like meriweather/Harrison got fined for a few years ago will lead to suspensions in the near future. You can't do everything at once.

    -Acknowledge the problem (which has only happened in the past few years)
    -Start to address the problem, i.e. fines and better understanding/awareness, and eventually bigger fines (as we've seen) and finally suspensions.

    Going forward, you CONTINUE to address the problem. There are STILL players who won't admit concussions, so obviously the understanding part isn't close to being complete. Nevermind a gross situation like in SD a few years back where the guy seized on the plane ride home because his concussion was overlooked on some...'sketchy', at best, reasoning.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : Suspensions, as we are seeing right now with the Saints players, are never an easy thing. They ALWAYS get challenged, and it's hard and costly to argue it either way. It's a progression, in a few years, I think hits like meriweather/Harrison got fined for a few years ago will lead to suspensions in the near future. You can't do everything at once. -Acknowledge the problem (which has only happened in the past few years) -Start to address the problem, i.e. fines and better understanding/awareness, and eventually bigger fines (as we've seen) and finally suspensions. Going forward, you CONTINUE to address the problem. There are STILL players who won't admit concussions, so obviously the understanding part isn't close to being complete. Nevermind a gross situation like in SD a few years back where the guy seized on the plane ride home because his concussion was overlooked on some...'sketchy', at best, reasoning.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]


    If there was a real desire by the league to stifle the blatant hits they could do plenty more.

    How about on a blatant hit instead of just being a penalty, the ball is immediately turned over?

    How about suspensions with pay and a fine as well? No grounds for a lawsuit there.

    How about major fines to the franchise? Cost your team enough loot and your marketability goes down down down come next contract and your playing time is likely less in the meanwhile.

    How about blatant hits being related to the cap? The more a team is penalized for blatant hits the lower their cap gets.

    How about rankings on blatant hits affecting playoff seeding?

    How about such hits causing immediate ejection from the game?

    There are a bunch of possibilities that are real rather than this token fining nonsense. I don't see Goodell really trying to solve this. They are just doing a cover your azz program to provide a defense against litigation.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In response to "Re: This is the s*** I don't like": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : The word concussion didn't exist in the NFL dictionary in Seau's hayday. He told his girlfreind he'd had concussions, and he complained about headaches. He KILLED himself. He admitted to having multiple concussions/post football head aches. Depressed people kill themselves. Studies show correlations between concussions and depression. It really isn't that big a leap. Posted by oh-my-beard[/QUOTE] So anyone who kills themselves who has ever played football must have killed themselves from concussions? You don't know what he was thinking. Concussions are not new to the NFL. You're assuming he had concussions, you're assuming those concussions gave him depression, you're assuming that depression caused him to kill himself and you started a thread to scold everyone on your moral superiority. Maybe those things happened, maybe he was genetically predisposed to depression, maybe his girlfriend just broke up with him, maybe he had problems with his kids. Killing yourself is not evidence of anything, people kill themselves everyday for reasons that have nothing to do with football. I don't know what was going on in his head- you don't either.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    Without reciting excerpts Neurology 101, one can readily state that repeated blunt force trauma is not conducive to the long term health of the individual.  The league has no data on the subject in the past? Were the leather helmets of the Nagurski era less of a violent projectile than the plastic helmets of the modern era. Everyone wears the same equipment, albeit with a different team logo, so there is no question of functionality. It all comes down to understanding the evident physical risk implicit in the game. If you ride equestrian an untamed or wild horse could mean paraplegia to an untested rider not wearing the proper attire and whose experience is limited. The parallel applies to any athletic endeavour. Even rudimentary knowledge of the game should apply. Common sense would dictate that a rational human being would not willingly submit themselves to blunt force trauma unless that person has a viable economic incentive. The question is always when to decide to walk away from the game and how that decision is reached.

    As near as I can tell there is no panacea for chronic neurological disorders associated repeated trauma. No Tommy John surgery with a recuperation process to aid its players and protect its investment exists. Unfortunately,the public will learn more from forensic evidence ascertained from the autopsy. Treating headaches with analgesics is commonplace, however, this problem enters an area that requires specialized treatment.

    The NFL is not a Dickensian workhouse or the shaft of a well-ventilated coal mine. It is a large corporation that is learning to function with its own inherent risks by witnessing an unspoken issue coming to the forefront.

    As previously stated you cant legislate against aggression, however, at some point there will be legal ramifications because American football is a collision sport in an overly litigious society.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : +1 Does anyone think James Harrison gives a $hit about a 25k fine?
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]

    Don't forget that he's also got the NFLPA to deal with.  If penalties get too high, the NFLPA is going to step in as they have with the Saints players.  I don't know what recourse they have through the CBA, but if things got too out of hand, I'd imagine they'd take their grievances to the courts. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : Don't forget that he's also got the NFLPA to deal with.  If penalties get too high, the NFLPA is going to step in as they have with the Saints players.  I don't know what recourse they have through the CBA, but if things got too out of hand, I'd imagine they'd take their grievances to the courts. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    That's all well and good, but if Goodell wants to avoid a court case it means he is putting that desire in front of player safety.  The point is he isn't "doing all he can".  He's doing as much as he can without picking a fight with the NFLPA.  Those are two different things imo.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

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    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]I actually thought Goodell was pretty genuine at the draft and cares about the young players.
    Posted by patsfan76[/QUOTE]
    I would boo Goodell genuine draft myself, but not for the same reasons.  Goodell should bite the bullet and establish a "You break it, you bought it" rule.  If you break a role-playing fourth wideout, it doesn't matter how careful you were, your team just gave a seventh round pick to the injured team.  As a hard rule, if the other guys are listed as "out" and miss games, you're to blame, no appeal and no whining.  If you break a starting quarterback it's maybe a third round pick.  If you did the killer hit with clear malice, you lose a second round pick.  If your team does the same injury lots of times, then the price goes up.

    The league will still see hard hits that pop footballs loose, but league-wide there will be no more Bernard Pollard damaging the knee ligaments of Anthony Gonzalez, no more Bernard Pollard damaging the knee ligaments of Tom Brady, and so on.

    I boo Goodell because he's papering over a huge player safety problem.  He earned my ire.  All over the league, coaches are now trying to come across with an ironclad plausible deniability scheme.  Break legs and win.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    i hear on the radio that the players are launching an effort to take the appeals process out of the commish's hands. how foolish would it be for the nflpa to have influence over the appeals process? 

    1) every time the nflpa manages to reduce the penalty that the commish hands down for safety related offense, the nfl's protection against liability from lawsuits gets stronger.

    2) moreover, the nflpa will in the process just be putting itself in the line of fire of those lawsuits
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

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    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]I honstly don't see how any of the lawsuits against the NFL by the players will hold any weight. After all....didn't they all play at their own will? Nobody forced these guys out onto the field. They all knew it's a dangerous & violent sport. Once again, I feel like the lawyers of the world and their lawsuits are making this entire thing a lot worse than it should be. ....
    Posted by tanbass[/QUOTE]

    let me make an analogy...

    just because a factory worker accepts that there is risk that he/she could lose a limb working in a factory does not mean that the company owning the factory will be free from liability from an accident that happened because other workers get away with letting unsafe conditions exist. that's a long sentence i know but you get it.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

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    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]There aren't any people in this discussion who are entirely wrong, and none who are entirely right...except perhaps those who regret that Seau is gone. Each is a possible fraction of truth based on our current lack of genuine evidence. Conjecture based on weak or unavailable evidence is indeed speculation, and while it may amuse some of us, it doesn't get us any closer to the actual truth of the matter. Ernest Hemingway once observed that "it isn't one thing, or another thing that's true, it's that it's all true". For now, until more credible evidence comes in identifying the contributing factors that can be confidently established, all factors should remain in the equation, speculative or not.  We may not like some of them, but we not ready to rule anything out yet either.
    Posted by nbptbob[/QUOTE]

    If you take this philosophy too seriously you may have a hard time making choices and decisions (if all is individual perception and all is true). Fortunately, some things are more right than others. And Seau's brain will be dissected and we will know what the effect of all those concussions were.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : let me make an analogy... just because a factory worker accepts that there is risk that he/she could lose a limb working in a factory does not mean that the company owning the factory will be free from liability from an accident that happened because other workers get away with letting unsafe conditions exist. that's a long sentence i know but you get it.
    Posted by seattlepat70[/QUOTE]

    What you are trying to say is: the owners and management are responsible anyway because they allowed unsafe conditions to exist and they did nothing to remedy them. Warning people conditions are unsafe is not enough, one must remedy them or face the consequences!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to This is the s*** I don't like : No he isn't. If he had any real interest in assuring safety in the game he would be progressively suspending the perpetrators rather than throwing paltry fines at them, which are merely a token gesture. If you want it safer, get rid of the clowns who make it unsafe.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Agreed!!!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from magicalhobo. Show magicalhobo's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]I think what you are saying is that you don't want to live without your hit of violence even if it kills someone else. Because that is what happened to Seau. Football killed him: the hits, the concussions, the drugs, the resulting depressions.  We are all culpable in this: Players, Fans and Owners. 
    Posted by NYC[/QUOTE]

    No, I think what I am saying is that I love the game of football as it is and has been for decades. I'm saying that we shouldn't make drastic changes to the game because of these concussion issues. I'm saying that plenty of people in our society work some very dangerous jobs, and that few, if any, are up in arms trying to change everything for them. I'm all about being progressive, but there are some things that shouldn't change, and I believe football is one of them. It is a sport, not your post-work yoga class.These people make the conscious decision to play it and they know the risks.

    You state, "Football killed him: the hits, the concussions, the drugs, the resulting depressions." You have no flipping idea as to what killed Seau. You are making assumptions and stating them as fact. You don't know what killed Seau. Sure, maybe he was depressed and couln't handle life after all that fame and fortune. Maybe something in his brain told him to kill himself. Maybe he took too many hits...

    Or maybe he had relationship problems? Maybe he was involved with some bad people? I could keep going. The fact here is that you don't know what killed Seau. How do I know this? You are not Seau.

    Now saying I don't want to live without my "hit of violence" is also an assumption. You don't know anything about me. I said that I was all for making the game safer until it starts to detract from the game itself. Football has always been a game of violence. The players choose to play the game. Don't make us out to be murderers because we enjoy a sport. Well it's late and I'm on the phone so it's time to shut both off and get to bed. I've ranted for long enough.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

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    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : ...I'm all about being progressive, but there are some things that shouldn't change, and I believe football is one of them. ...
    Posted by magicalhobo[/QUOTE]

    you say you are about being progressive. maybe you believe that but you are not, at least not in this case. what you are is a person who wants to live in the past.

    the fact is that this is the new reality. it changed when the medical world started to look into sports concussions more seriously. with whatever findings there are, the nfl cannot ignore it anymore.

    it does not matter what you believe. there are 1,600 former players who believe they were exposed to unnecessary risk. you do not have to agree. 

    in the meantime, the nfl has no choice but to act to protect itself. it only takes one lawsuit to succeed and that one lawsuit sets the precedent. the floodgates will open up. that would spell the end of the league you claim to love so much.

    you may not think it is the right reason for them to act. it does not matter. they are acting and every action is a step in the right direction.


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimmytantric. Show jimmytantric's posts

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    Very well said-let's not assume anything-no one knows why this happened and how it went down!In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]Nobody knows why Seau killed himself other than him and god and any attempt to tie his death to football or anything else is unfounded speculation.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like : No, I think what I am saying is that I love the game of football as it is and has been for decades. I'm saying that we shouldn't make drastic changes to the game because of these concussion issues. I'm saying that plenty of people in our society work some very dangerous jobs, and that few, if any, are up in arms trying to change everything for them. I'm all about being progressive, but there are some things that shouldn't change, and I believe football is one of them. It is a sport, not your post-work yoga class.These people make the conscious decision to play it and they know the risks. You state, "Football killed him: the hits, the concussions, the drugs, the resulting depressions." You have no flipping idea as to what killed Seau. You are making assumptions and stating them as fact. You don't know what killed Seau. Sure, maybe he was depressed and couln't handle life after all that fame and fortune. Maybe something in his brain told him to kill himself. Maybe he took too many hits... Or maybe he had relationship problems? Maybe he was involved with some bad people? I could keep going. The fact here is that you don't know what killed Seau. How do I know this? You are not Seau. Now saying I don't want to live without my "hit of violence" is also an assumption. You don't know anything about me. I said that I was all for making the game safer until it starts to detract from the game itself. Football has always been a game of violence. The players choose to play the game. Don't make us out to be murderers because we enjoy a sport. Well it's late and I'm on the phone so it's time to shut both off and get to bed. I've ranted for long enough.
    Posted by magicalhobo[/QUOTE]

    It is now a basic tenet that people who work dangerous jobs need protection. This protection needs to be institutionalized (and not be a matter of personal choice) as people often make bad decisions in the short term to get money and fame. Having a safe helmet that can completely protect you from almost all hits is one example. 

    I agree to disagree with you. Football needs to change. All measures need to be taken to ensure player safety whether that be changes in rules, equipment or the way the game is played. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

    Re: This is the s*** I don't like

    In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like:
    [QUOTE]Very well said-let's not assume anything-no one knows why this happened and how it went down!In Response to Re: This is the s*** I don't like :
    Posted by jimmytantric[/QUOTE]

    I admit the issue is complex and involving multipe factors but everything in life is complex and involves multiple factors so that is not enough for me. What I am saying is that brain injury and the effect of terminating from a toxic NFL lifestyle as lilkely a strong mitigating factor. 

    Hey, Seau was a warrior. He does not seem like the type of guy to be intimidated by life's normal problems: finances, an angry divorced wife etc. in and of itself. It's bigger than that. And going beyond Seau, why are former NFL players 6 X more likely to commit suicide than the average person? Why is the average life expectancy of NFL players only till age 51-55? 

     

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