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to all the BB GM naysayers

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    Let's summarize the brilliant deductions of some on this issue so far. We have the best GM in the game today. We have the best coach in the game today. We have one of the at least top 3 QBs in the game today. But we haven't won a SB in 7 years. In that case, something above does not compute. You tell me which of those 3 is in error. Because in those 7 years 5 teams have won SBs that weren't us, and 2 have won a couple of them. And according to you they don't have the best coach or best GM and they certainly don't have a hands down better QB.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    you are one of the brilliant ones who actually made at least 2 of those three deductions.. 

    your kind of like ud6 where you say a lot of semi positive sh*t in posts but your true colors always come out somewhere down the line..
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    if I took advise from you id need my head examined...   you cant have your cake and eat it too...   stay or one side or the other but dont come back after the fact and flip flop...  
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NCPatsFan1971. Show NCPatsFan1971's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    And people used to blame Rusty for arguing a thread too long?

    This one is over the top now and it is simply an "I'm right your wrong" thread.  It also has the appearance that people here have the power to change the policy of the Patriots.

    I'm really surprised.  It's like we as fans shouldn't cheer for the Pats until the Super Bowl because none of the other games matter?

    That is sick and not in a good kind of way.

    Oh and by the way, I don't read BDC to get all riled up.  I read it for entertainment and because I'm a fan.   Threads like this that are a continuous downer suck.  

    Yes I am a dedicated fan.  If someone doesn't like that well that's TS.

    Gints Fan and UD6 must be laughing at threads like this.  

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    you say we havent won the sb in 7 years but in 11 years we have won 3 and been in 5... 2 in the last 4  ill take that over any negative bs you can spew  bring out your stat checker and match those up to anyone else
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    This will be my last post on this thread.  Quoting a source that bases its conclusions on draft success on a 3 year span says it all.  The Pats under Kraft and BB are in for the long haul and the two sources I listed are long haul evaluations:

    If you want a 3 year horizon then become a Jets fan - that's the approach they've taken over the years and how's that worked out?

    You like the opinion that you hold, Babe.  That's abundantly clear.  I don't share it and the facts don't support it but feel free.

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to to all the BB GM naysayers:

    I like TB the QB and would argue that most of the continuity and success stems from him. TB suffered the 2006 year with no receivers and they still came close to the championship. BB the GM did a great job from 2001-2004 when everything he touched turned to gold. Since then he's been hit and miss like a lot of GMs but he's always had Brady there to save the day.

    This year's defense was one of the worst in history. The team is out of balance. Like the Colts, if TB goes down now the defense isn't the 2008 defense and won't be able to hold its own. For those who like to look at points allowed that's fine but this defense was on the field a long time last year and it had to wear them down. Defenses need three and outs on occassion to keep them fresh and bend but don't break trades yardage and TOP in hopes for a turnover. I think its great when they hold a team to 3 points after a 35 play 7:00 minute drive but its not good for the defense to play like this; add in the throw-happy NE offense with lot's of their own 30 second three and outs and you have a tired lack-luster defense.

    I love the success and all but how much do you attribute that to BB the GM and how much do you attribute that to a weak AFC East year after year and a healthly Tom Brady; arguably the GOAT? It not like BB changed the philosphy that made him successful in the glory years its just that the value approach ROI has diminished over time.

    BB will show me a lot by who he brings in this off-season. Will he trade up in the first round to get an elite player or will he stand Pat or else trade high picks to find "value"? Gronk has spinal stenosis which was enough to drop him out of the first round and kudos to BB for taking a chance on him. BB does it home runs on picks but he also misses badly and with the same positions over and over. There's a lot less risk with higher round pics.

    Here's something to consider; if BB sticks with the 4-3 he will need at least one elite DE. If he goes to the 3-4 they need at least one impact OLB. This decision predicates who you look at in the draft and free agency.

    I love the winning, I'm a Pats homer and all but I'm not confident anymore in Brady's abilities in the playoffs as his numbers drop off too much from the regular season and the defense from last year can't make up for his bad games. If Peyton Manning plays in Miami and has anything left then that's two gimme games against lousy quarterbacking NE won't benefit from next year and the almost-worst pass defense gets worse.
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from NCPatsFan1971. Show NCPatsFan1971's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : Every sports team on the planet has fans discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the team. Somehow you think doing that means they're not dedicated fans? As far as Jints, I wouldn't speak for him, but my observation is that he reviles the fan that thinks everything about their team is best beyond the point of reason. And in that I agree with him. It is pretty sickening. And this BB is the best GM falls right into that slot in my view. UD6 is a simple case. Everything hinges on him wanting to show Manning to be the best ever. Simply that and nothing more.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    Look, I'm not going to argue with you that BB is a great GM because maybe he is or maybe he isn't.  The fact is that I don't know.   And I don't believe you know either.

    The point is if Brady completed his pass to Welker or Gronk and or if Manning did not complete his sideline pass to Manningham, would we even be having this conversation right now?  

    The bottom line is the 2008 Super Bowl  score was - NY Giants 17 NE Patriots 14. The 2012 Super Bowl was - NY Giants 21 NE Patriots 17.

    It apprear that you are measuring the Patriot Success by Super Bowls.  Well the last two SB Results were decided by a COMBINED 7 POINTS.   

    So does the total of a 7 Point differential of two Super Bowls equate to the Giants GM being the best and BB being the worst?


    If I'm going to be ticked off about the last SB it is going to be at Brady who should have at least tried to get out of the pocket before he threw the ball away in the opening Pats series.  I'm also ticked off at Brady for throwing that deep ball interception on first down trying to hit Gronk.  But OTOH, Brady has brought so much to the Pats during his carreer, I'm no where near ready to give up on him.

    Lastly, the Pats 3 SB Wins were by a total of 9 Points = (3 Points each Game)  Does this mean that the GM of the Rams, Panthers, and Eagles sucked during those years and BB was the best?  And to top that off, the Pats have been back to the SB twice since those victories while the Rams, Panthers and Eagles have gone in the toilet.  

    We can Stat each other to death but that is all BS.   If either one of the last two SB's were a Blowout then I might tend to agree with you a little more on this topic.

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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    In evaluating BB as a GM, I think you need to look at three things: First, his strategy of trading draft picks.  The Pats have been disadvantaged in picks since BB came to the team because they had to give up picks for Belichick himself, they lost picks to spygate, and they have finished high in the standings nearly every year so they generally earn low-round picks.  To compensate for this, BB has pursued a strategy of trading picks to get either (1) higher round picks in future drafts or (2) a larger number of lower round picks in the current draft.  Overall, this strategy seems to have helped keep the Pats viable in the draft (the team always has a significant number of low first round through fourth round picks), though it has meant very few high first round picks (where a lot of impact players are drafted). The question is whether we would have done better with fewer, higher picks than with so many mid round picks.  That's hard to answer, because even high first round picks can be busts.  But the odds of getting someone good are certainly much higher in picks 1 through 15 than anywhere else in the draft. Low first round, second round, and third and fourth round picks are much more unpredictable. To truly evaluate the strategy, one also has to consider the value of having all those lower round picks for trades--and of acquiring additional picks through trades.  Here BB has done a lot too, both gaining additional picks (Seymour) and using picks to acquire good free agents (Moss). Draft picks aren't just for drafting--they're for trading too--so you have to look at the strategy holistically.  When you do that, I think you have to say BB has done a great job of keeping enough picks to keep the overall quality of the team relatively high through a combination of trades and drafting.  However, there's a question mark whether the strategy has made it hard to acquire enough impact players and has left us with too many JAGs who end up being cut after clogging the roster for two or three years.  Second, his evaluation of talent.  Here, BB seems to have done just an average job.  BB has definitely had a tendency to look for overlooked guys (small school, injured, etc.) who may have fallen in the draft relative their potential talent.   This makes sense given the number of mid- to lower round picks we have and the shortage of high first round picks.  He's had mixed success with this strategy: Brady, Gronk, Hernandez stand out as huge successes. But others (Butler, Tate, Wheatley, Cable, etc.) seem like so many wasted picks.  Overall, I think you have to look at BB as just average here.  While there are successes, there are a lot of misses and those misses have been costly.  Just look at the long, tortured attempt to rebuild the secondary or to get an OLB or to find a WR or RB.  Maybe at some point, BB should have traded up to get a top prospect . . . but even without trading up, he's missed on guys like Johnson, Maroney, Merriweather, etc., who were relatively high picks.  Having to play Edelman and Slater in the secondary this year is not a sign of good success bringing in talent.   Third, his management of the salary cap. With a salary cap of a bit over $120 million and the need to sign somewhat more than 60 players a year, your average cap hit per player is about $2 million.  A lot of impact players result in cap hits of $5, $10, even $15 million.  I think part of BB's strategy has been to avoid tying up too much of the cap on too few guys.  When you add that variable, his approach of trying to build a team with guys in lower rounds and who aren't obvious impact players in free agency maybe starts to make even more sense. At a $8 to $10 million cap hit per player, you would eat up your entire salary cap with 12-15 guys.  That's not enough to play a game.  So you are severely limited in the number of high-contract, impact players you can bring in.  However, good teams tend to have a few of these guys.  We have Brady, Wilfork, Mankins . . . and no one else I can think of.  Maybe that's too few.  If you're not going to have those guys, you need to get guys like Rodney Harrison who can play at an impact level without demanding an impact salary.  BB has been good at finding those kinds of players . . . but the current team doesn't have enough.  Overall . . . I think you have to say BB has done a better than average job as a GM, but the talent level of the team is a bit too low to really ensure dominance in the league. It is high enough, however, to put the Pats in the running every year and that's a pretty major accomplishment.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid

    Great post!
    I wish I had read your's before I posted the same thing again.
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    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    In Response to to all the BB GM naysayers : Actually, I would rather go one and out than to lose the AFC or the SB. I would rather go 8-8 and miss the playoffs than lose the SB. There is nothing worse than losing the SB! NOTHING!
    Posted by BabeParilli

    You lost me here.  I remember too many years when the playoffs weren't a possibilty by the end of September.  You make it to the bowl you're a winner, period.  Sure it hurts when you don't take home the prize but for four weeks it feels better than being anywhere else.  
    I'll take the risk of losing over not making the playoffs any year.  Hoping they lose before they can get to and possibly lose the bowl, is just cowardly. 
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NCPatsFan1971. Show NCPatsFan1971's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : I don't have much disagreement with what you are saying. I never said BB was a bad GM. He's average. Not only do I think we would have won those two SBs if he were as good a GM as many people here say, I think we might have had 3 or 4 in the last 7 years. Look, I understand it's unpopular with some fans to dare to say BB might not be the greatest coach AND greatest GM in history. But honesty rules me more than emotion in these matters so I have to say he isn't any great GM from all the evidence I have seen. I just don't like to kid myself like some people need to do.  Rather, kidding myself is repugnant to me. I'm still waiting for somebody to make a cogent case that I'm incorrect about BB the GM. As far as Brady's mistakes, yeah, he makes them. They all do. I look at the bottom line. His bottom line for the SB was a good one. Subtract most of the drops and he has a super SB. Even with the drops his numbers were stellar against a peaking Giants' D. And sorry, but a guy coming in unabated at full speed at him in the endzone tells me there is somebody to blame other than Brady for the safety.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    OK Babe.  

    In reality, we probably can agree on more than we disagree on most things Pats.   
    The other day I mentioned perspective.  Each and everyone of us can have a different one on various matters including the Patriots.  For me, after having my heart broken by the Red Sox in 1967, 1975, 1978, and 1986 (1978 and (1986 were the worst). Then my heart was broken by the Patriots in 1976, 1985 (Smoked) 1996 and 2008.  (2008 was the worst followed by a close second of 1976)

    Anyhow, I suppose that basically what I try to do now is to take the good stuff from my favorite teams and leave the rest.  This is not easy to do.  It might be a defense mechanism or whatever, but I find this method to be great for my mental health.  :)

    I don't think I'm kidding myself either because it is a cognizant decison that I choose to make on how I react to disappointment.  IMO, life is too short to do otherwise.  

    Having said all that, I look forward to the draft and the possibility of picking up a worthy free agent or two.  Let the new games begin as new hands are being dealt as we speak.   

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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from HoleinOne402. Show HoleinOne402's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    BB the GM is average and would be bad if not for BB the Coach. As a GM, shuold not need to count on undrafted free agents to fill spots.  Not sustainable and not the talent level of winning SuperBowl. BB the GM great in some areas (undrafted free agents), cap space, and some trades/free agents (Moss and Welker).  Absolutely horrid in others - drafting/trades/pickups CB's, other wide receivers, 90% of linebackers not named Mayo. 
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : Few remember if you didn't make the playoffs a given year. But everybody remembers losing a SB. I was there through all the lean years. But we didn't have the great QB and the great HC then. We do now, and the GM is squandering that with mediocre performance.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    The Pats have been very successful and a lot of it has to do with Brady but I do think BB put a great game plan together early on when it was obvious that the secondary could not play the man scheme he wanted. They went back to bend but don't break and played it brilliantly for turnovers. The strength of last year's defense was the rope-a-dope where the offense tires itself out before finally giving up and kicking a field goal. Their red zone defensive efficiency wasn't great.

    This team just needs more balance. I think one player could tip the scales for the defense to the point where they're statistically respectable AND mid of the pack in points allowed.
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    The fact of the matter is I believe that we would not have BB the HC if we did not allow him to be BB the GM.  This is a package deal that he signed up for and it is difficult to separate the two as they are indivisble
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