to all the BB GM naysayers

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mgraham. Show mgraham's posts

    to all the BB GM naysayers

     I think recent events show that BB the GM has done arguably the best job of any GM in the NFL for his tenure as coach / GM ( albeit Pioli was GM in the early years .. but BB was not without influence in the structuring of those teams).

    the Pats, Colts, and Steelers were the benchmark organizations since the turn of the century ( love saying that!). But today we see the Colts coming off a 2 win season and in a true rebuilding stage that could be another 2 years before they become competitive. The Steelers are in CAP HELL and are having a fire sale , letting players ( contributors ) go. the Pats have restructured their team without a blip. Ok no Championships  but 3 AFC cahampionship games and 2 SB appearances. How many other NFL team fans would like to have that?

    Like Indy we lost our QB for a year but still accomplished an 11-5 record (normal years would have been a playoff team). Indy went 2-14. So BB the  GM decision for staffing the team with a 7th round QB that never started a game in college proved quite fortuitous in proving more than capable depth at the most important position.

    Injuries are a part of the NFL but it seems that there is always a Sterling Moore, Randall Gay, Troy Brown amd Julius Eddleman that can step up for the Pats. These are Defense examples ..but  just look at how the OL always seems to overcome injuries. Most NFL teams are devestated when injuries hit because they dont have depth..  how would you like to be a Bears fan and of course the affore mentioned Colts.

    We are coming off a 13-3 , 14-2 seasons and a close SB loss. We have Cap Space and oh yeah picks 27, 31 , 48 and 63 in this years draft.

    I am pretty happy with BB the GM

    PS : looking back I suppose we really should give Bill Poilian GM kudos. He shrewdly was able to mold this years Indy team to be able to position them to get Andrew Luck.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    Good post. The BB is a bad GM crew are the most uninformed group I have ever debated with. It is not even worth the time to discuss.
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    27 words. And I'm sure there could be more.

    Cunningham, Price, Brace, Butler, Tate, McKenzie, Wheatley, Crable, O'Connell, Meriweather, Moroney, Jackson, Hobbs, Hill, Johnson, Williams, Davey, Klemm, Redmond, Haynesworth, Ocho, Ellis, Starks, Beisel, Brown, Thomas, Galloway
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    I'm not going to say BB is a bad GM, because really I think the whole "good GM - bad GM" thing is overblown. I think there is a little too much luck involved with picking players come draft time to crown or burry someone. Never mind what happens after said player gets into the league and things like injuries and just plain bad luck ruin many a career.

    I will say that whoever is picking the players needs a guy like BB coaching them...he is the ultimate equalizer. Just ask Pioli, in three years his team hasn't had the luxury of a guy like Bill, if they have another one like last year they may not be looking to replace the head coach this time around.

    As for the Steelers being in "cap hell'...this is the downside to picking good players every single year and trying to keep them. There aren't too many teams that draft like them, they have some of the top guys in the league at almost every single position....wideout, QB, safety, linebacker, center. If Ben hadn't of got hurt, they may of won the whole thing. And if the Colts hadn't of lost Manning they could of been right in it as well - we may not of been so lucky to face the two QB's we did to get to the Super Bowl.

    Truthfully we'd be in "cap hell" too if guys like Maroney, Merriweather and Butler panned out , because we'd have to pay them. Instead we had undrafted free agents take their spots. When you have a coach like BB and a QB like Brady...it makes up for a lot, until a team like the Giants (who have more talent) beat you.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]The Steelers seem to Draft good every year, I wouldn't worry about them. We Draft Tate, they Draft Wallace after us.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    GM functions of the Steelers are far superior to us. If not for Brady we would be toast.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]I'm not going to say BB is a bad GM, because really I think the whole "good GM - bad GM" thing is overblown. I think there is a little too much luck involved with picking players come draft time to crown or burry someone. Never mind what happens after said player gets into the league and things like injuries and just plain bad luck ruin many a career. I will say that whoever is picking the players needs a guy like BB coaching them...he is the ultimate equalizer. Just ask Pioli, in three years his team hasn't had the luxury of a guy like Bill, if they have another one like last year they may not be looking to replace the head coach this time around. As for the Steelers being in "cap hell'...this is the downside to picking good players every single year and trying to keep them. There aren't too many teams that draft like them, they have some of the top guys in the league at almost every single position....wideout, QB, safety, linebacker, center. If Ben hadn't of got hurt, they may of won the whole thing. And if the Colts hadn't of lost Manning they could of been right in it as well - we may not of been so lucky to face the two QB's we did to get to the Super Bowl.
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]

    BB used up all his luck picking Brady.

    Pioli is no clever guy. His Cassel move is a bust as I told the tool Rusty it would be.

    Both he and BB got a lot of credit for building the dynasty that was already more than half built by their predecessors.

    Nobody is saying it's easy to sign and pick the right guys. But BB has been average at it and nothing more.

    As I just said, when Brady goes we're toast, and the dopes around here that take him for granted will be crying the loudest. Suddenly they will forget how they bashed him for throwing only 2 TDs in a game, LOL
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from sporter81. Show sporter81's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    BB has completely rebuilt this team twice since 2001. Anyone who thinks he isn't a great GM knows very little about the NFL and how difficult it is to stay on top year in and year out. To say that its all because of Brady is ridiculous as well, he's a great qb but they also went 11-5 in 2008 without him. Its difficult to win any game in the NFL no matter who the opponent is.  BB always builds depth for the injuries that will happen every year. With as many draft choices as the Patriots have had of course there will be many that don't pan out. No team hits it with every player they draft. 

    Once BB is retired, any TRUE Patriot fan will wish he was still here. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]BB has completely rebuilt this team twice since 2001. Anyone who thinks he isn't a great GM knows very little about the NFL and how difficult it is to stay on top year in and year out. To say that its all because of Brady is ridiculous as well, he's a great qb but they also went 11-5 in 2008 without him. Its difficult to win any game in the NFL no matter who the opponent is.  BB always builds depth for the injuries that will happen every year. With as many draft choices as the Patriots have had of course there will be many that don't pan out. No team hits it with every player they draft.  Once BB is retired, any TRUE Patriot fan will wish he was still here. 
    Posted by sporter81[/QUOTE]

    No offense. Really.

    I am so sick and f'n tired hearing that same old same old lame "evidence" that we went 11-5 in 2008 and that proves it isn't Brady.

    That team beat NOBODY. And lost out to the previously 1-15 Dolphins for the division title. The schedule was a joke.

    Bottom line:

    With Brady - 9 playoffs in 10 tries.

    Without Brady - 1 playoff in 7 tries.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : BB used up all his luck picking Brady. Pioli is no clever guy. His Cassel move is a bust as I told the tool Rusty it would be. Both he and BB got a lot of credit for building the dynasty that was already more than half built by their predecessors. Nobody is saying it's easy to sign and pick the right guys. But BB has been average at it and nothing more. As I just said, when Brady goes we're toast, and the dopes around here that take him for granted will be crying the loudest. Suddenly they will forget how they bashed him for throwing only 2 TDs in a game, LOL
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
    For the most part I agree - it will be a ghost town around these parts when Brady leaves. The "value approach" to how we do business (and are praised for) won't be happening once we start losing and the Disney Land that is Patriot Place becomes much less crowded.

    For all the talk about how we "won" without Brady that year (and we missed the playoffs by the way), people forget that we were aggressive as ever the year prior in free agency and went 16 and 0 in the regular season. The team was pretty loaded in the talent department...add in the fact that no one took us seriously when Brady went down (having BB as coach doesn't hurt either) and it's not so hard to fathom how we won. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE] I think recent events show that BB the GM has done arguably the best job of any GM in the NFL for his tenure as coach / GM ( albeit Pioli was GM in the early years .. but BB was not without influence in the structuring of those teams). the Pats, Colts, and Steelers were the benchmark organizations since the turn of the century ( love saying that!). But today we see the Colts coming off a 2 win season and in a true rebuilding stage that could be another 2 years before they become competitive. The Steelers are in CAP HELL and are having a fire sale , letting players ( contributors ) go. the Pats have restructured their team without a blip. Ok no Championships  but 3 AFC cahampionship games and 2 SB appearances. How many other NFL team fans would like to have that? 
    Posted by mgraham[/QUOTE]

    For one thing, I would think that the Giants would have to go in that argument as well. At least over the past 5 years. Personally, I feel like the Patriots Super Bowl Championships are history at this point and not relevant to discussions of this year's team. 

    In the seven years since the Patriots last won the Super Bowl, three other teams have been there multiple times. All of them have managed to win at least one. Two teams have won multiple Super Bowls. I would not say we have been the benchmark of the NFL in that time span.

    The Colts era ended when Manning got hurt. The team decided to go for the number one pick and rebuild rather than try to limp into the playoffs (looking back - going 11-5 with Cassel and not making the playoffs did not help the Patriots any). 

    The Steelers are hardly in cap hell. Last I read, they had gotten themselves under the cap with enough room resign Wallace and sign draft picks. I hardly consider cutting aging veterans a fire sale. Farrior, Ward, and Aaron Smith were old and no longer the players the once were. Over the past seven years, the Steelers have been more succesful than the Patriots so I certainly would not count them out.

    Why do we keep going back to "the turn of the century"? I feel like too many Patriots fans are looking at this team like we just came off the '01-'04 run and the Belichick/Brady combo looks unstoppable. At what point do we judge them based on '05-'11 seasons, where they have been good, but not good enough, to win another Lombardi Trophy.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to to all the BB GM naysayers : Why do we keep going back to "the turn of the century"? I feel like too many Patriots fans are looking at this team like we just came off the '01-'04 run and the Belichick/Brady combo looks unstoppable. At what point do we judge them based on '05-'11 seasons, where they have been good, but not good enough, to win another Lombardi Trophy.
    Posted by FrnkBnhm[/QUOTE]

    You have hit the nail on the head. The reason that some harken back to the days of yore is because it waters down the failures of these days. Two lost SBs and a lost AFC Championship in 6 years is super fail. Sad but true.

    I stopped watering things down a few years ago. It's really only now that I see a good number of fans having that kind of realistic outlook. Still, many will just say "we're in the hunt every year!". Sorry, but that doesn't cut it for me. I'm not into losing huge games every other year. We've become the damned Red Sox of the second half of the 20th century.

    But I think Brady has been fine. And BB's coaching has been good as well. It's just that the team itself has SO many more very marginal guys all over the place compared to the dynasty years that it is simply not going to beat the NFL's best in the end. And that lies squarely on the shoulders of the man who is bringing in the people to get it done on the field.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE] but 3 AFC cahampionship games and 2 SB appearances. How many other NFL team fans would like to have that?
    Posted by mgraham[/QUOTE]


    Actually, I would rather go one and out than to lose the AFC or the SB. I would rather go 8-8 and miss the playoffs than lose the SB. There is nothing worse than losing the SB! NOTHING!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers


    In evaluating BB as a GM, I think you need to look at three things:

    First, his strategy of trading draft picks.  The Pats have been disadvantaged in picks since BB came to the team because they had to give up picks for Belichick himself, they lost picks to spygate, and they have finished high in the standings nearly every year so they generally earn low-round picks.  To compensate for this, BB has pursued a strategy of trading picks to get either (1) higher round picks in future drafts or (2) a larger number of lower round picks in the current draft.  Overall, this strategy seems to have helped keep the Pats viable in the draft (the team always has a significant number of low first round through fourth round picks), though it has meant very few high first round picks (where a lot of impact players are drafted). The question is whether we would have done better with fewer, higher picks than with so many mid round picks.  That's hard to answer, because even high first round picks can be busts.  But the odds of getting someone good are certainly much higher in picks 1 through 15 than anywhere else in the draft. Low first round, second round, and third and fourth round picks are much more unpredictable. To truly evaluate the strategy, one also has to consider the value of having all those lower round picks for trades--and of acquiring additional picks through trades.  Here BB has done a lot too, both gaining additional picks (Seymour) and using picks to acquire good free agents (Moss). Draft picks aren't just for drafting--they're for trading too--so you have to look at the strategy holistically.  When you do that, I think you have to say BB has done a great job of keeping enough picks to keep the overall quality of the team relatively high through a combination of trades and drafting.  However, there's a question mark whether the strategy has made it hard to acquire enough impact players and has left us with too many JAGs who end up being cut after clogging the roster for two or three years. 

    Second, his evaluation of talent.  Here, BB seems to have done just an average job.  BB has definitely had a tendency to look for overlooked guys (small school, injured, etc.) who may have fallen in the draft relative their potential talent.   This makes sense given the number of mid- to lower round picks we have and the shortage of high first round picks.  He's had mixed success with this strategy: Brady, Gronk, Hernandez stand out as huge successes. But others (Butler, Tate, Wheatley, Cable, etc.) seem like so many wasted picks.  Overall, I think you have to look at BB as just average here.  While there are successes, there are a lot of misses and those misses have been costly.  Just look at the long, tortured attempt to rebuild the secondary or to get an OLB or to find a WR or RB.  Maybe at some point, BB should have traded up to get a top prospect . . . but even without trading up, he's missed on guys like Johnson, Maroney, Merriweather, etc., who were relatively high picks.  Having to play Edelman and Slater in the secondary this year is not a sign of good success bringing in talent.  

    Third, his management of the salary cap. With a salary cap of a bit over $120 million and the need to sign somewhat more than 60 players a year, your average cap hit per player is about $2 million.  A lot of impact players result in cap hits of $5, $10, even $15 million.  I think part of BB's strategy has been to avoid tying up too much of the cap on too few guys.  When you add that variable, his approach of trying to build a team with guys in lower rounds and who aren't obvious impact players in free agency maybe starts to make even more sense. At a $8 to $10 million cap hit per player, you would eat up your entire salary cap with 12-15 guys.  That's not enough to play a game.  So you are severely limited in the number of high-contract, impact players you can bring in.  However, good teams tend to have a few of these guys.  We have Brady, Wilfork, Mankins . . . and no one else I can think of.  Maybe that's too few.  If you're not going to have those guys, you need to get guys like Rodney Harrison who can play at an impact level without demanding an impact salary.  BB has been good at finding those kinds of players . . . but the current team doesn't have enough. 

    Overall . . . I think you have to say BB has done a better than average job as a GM, but the talent level of the team is a bit too low to really ensure dominance in the league. It is high enough, however, to put the Pats in the running every year and that's a pretty major accomplishment.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brawny27. Show Brawny27's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In response to "to all the BB GM naysayers": [QUOTE] I think recent events show that BB the GM has done arguably the best job of any GM in the NFL for his tenure as coach / GM ( albeit Pioli was GM in the early years .. but BB was not without influence in the structuring of those teams). the Pats, Colts, and Steelers were the benchmark organizations since the turn of the century ( love saying that!). But today we see the Colts coming off a 2 win season and in a true rebuilding stage that could be another 2 years before they become competitive. The Steelers are in CAP HELL and are having a fire sale , letting players ( contributors ) go. the Pats have restructured their team without a blip. Ok no Championships  but 3 AFC cahampionship games and 2 SB appearances. How many other NFL team fans would like to have that? Like Indy we lost our QB for a year but still accomplished an 11-5 record (normal years would have been a playoff team). Indy went 2-14. So BB the  GM decision for staffing the team with a 7th round QB that never started a game in college proved quite fortuitous in proving more than capable depth at the most important position. Injuries are a part of the NFL but it seems that there is always a Sterling Moore, Randall Gay, Troy Brown amd Julius Eddleman that can step up for the Pats. These are Defense examples ..but  just look at how the OL always seems to overcome injuries. Most NFL teams are devestated when injuries hit because they dont have depth..  how would you like to be a Bears fan and of course the affore mentioned Colts. We are coming off a 13-3 , 14-2 seasons and a close SB loss. We have Cap Space and oh yeah picks 27, 31 , 48 and 63 in this years draft. I am pretty happy with BB the GM PS : looking back I suppose we really should give Bill Poilian GM kudos. He shrewdly was able to mold this years Indy team to be able to position them to get Andrew Luck. Posted by mgraham[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brawny27. Show Brawny27's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In response to "Re: to all the BB GM naysayers": [QUOTE]Good post. The BB is a bad GM crew are the most uninformed group I have ever debated with. It is not even worth the time to discuss. Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE] This draft BB NEEDS to change is approach a little and actually use the first round picks, we could use young talent on defense, he just can't keep trading down during the Brady window!...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]  Overall . . . I think you have to say BB has done a better than average job as a GM, but the talent level of the team is a bit too low to really ensure dominance in the league. It is high enough, however, to put the Pats in the running every year and that's a pretty major accomplishment.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    Well done. But the question remains has the overall success been mostly due to having the elite QB and elite coach rather than how the GM has performed. I say yes, by a lot.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: to all the BB GM naysayers": This draft BB NEEDS to change is approach a little and actually use the first round picks, we could use young talent on defense, he just can't keep trading down during the Brady window!...
    Posted by Brawny27[/QUOTE]

    I agree. I like his overall strategy of trading for value. But you better damned well get more hits on all those second rounders you're leaving yourself with. This, he has not done.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]BB has completely rebuilt this team twice since 2001. Anyone who thinks he isn't a great GM knows very little about the NFL and how difficult it is to stay on top year in and year out.  
    Posted by sporter81[/QUOTE]

    They have not won the Super Bowl in seven years. In that time, two different teams have won it twice. The Patriots have remained been a good team for long stretch, but it has been a while since they have been "on top" of the league.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : They have not won the Super Bowl in seven years. In that time, two different teams have won it twice. The Patriots have remained been a good team for long stretch, but it has been a while since they have been "on top" of the league.
    Posted by FrnkBnhm[/QUOTE]

    Yup, being on top of the Division (6x) and Conference (2x) in that period, really sucks.  I say, fire the whole team and start over.
    I wonder how many here apply such measurables to their own careers?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : Well done. But the question remains has the overall success been mostly due to having the elite QB and elite coach rather than how the GM has performed. I say yes, by a lot.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    I'd say coaching first, QB second, and a few key other players third (Moss, Gronk, Welker, etc.).  BB's biggest strength is the ability to get the most from guys who may have odd or limited talent but are smart and can adjust to complex or unusual schemes.  BB is great at designing schemes that allow individuals to succeed.  That's probably the biggest key to the team's ongoing success. 

    Overall talent level is definitely not the strength of the team . . .
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from NCPatsFan1971. Show NCPatsFan1971's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: to all the BB GM naysayers : Yup, being on top of the Division (6x) and Conference (2x) in that period, really sucks.  I say, fire the whole team and start over. I wonder how many here apply such measurables to their own careers?
    Posted by pezz4pats[/QUOTE]



    Good one Pezz.

    I'm a big fan of the Pats but thankfully they are only a relatively small part of my life.

    Of course I don't like it when they lose a Super Bowl but I'm not going to allow myself to go into a deep depression over this kind of loss. 

    I get a lot of enjoyment watching the Pats the entire season which is 4 months long.   The Playoffs and the Super Bowl are icing on the cake.  

    There are very few teams in the NFL that are even close to being as consistent as the Patriots during the Kraft, BB and TB era and I am very proud of that.  

    OTOH, it could also be just a matter of perspective because I was also a fan of the Pats during the years that they were terrible and were the laughing stock of the NFL. 

    JMNSHO 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    We went to the Super Bowl, have two #1 picks this year to go with a slew of 2nds, 3rds and beyond... plus we already have the QB of the future sitting on the bench in Ryan Mallett.

    If you say the Patriot problem (if there is one?) isn't the loss of Charlie Weis as well as all the young coaches being poached from our team before they're ready to be head coaches elsewhere, in short if you're saying BB isn't a good GM or that we lack talent then than you're a complete F-tard.  

    Look around, count your blessings, we could be the Bengal's...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    No question about it, every poster on this forum could do a better job of drafting talent than BB.  Yeah, I know; really sarcastic eh?  Well guess what?  For those who question BB's drafting prowess I offer the following:

    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3749_Decade_in_the_making%3A_the_ultimate_NFL_draft_grades.html

    Now, by all means, find as much fault with the thread as you wish. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from getdrunkstupit. Show getdrunkstupit's posts

    Re: to all the BB GM naysayers

    too bad bb can't draft
     

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