Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D : Right, but that sarcasm is similar to my warnings in the 35-21 win against SD this year in Week 2. The D set up pretty much all of our offense in that game in that shotgun spread with no running until at the very end. Dude, I am thrillled we won the last 2 weeks, but that elephant is still here. He's looking at the window, but he's still in the room too much. It's time they push the elephant out of the room. Philly's Run D? Not good. We need to run it down their throats next week in the first half.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Philly is not good on run D?

    13New England24310474.3417104.742
    14Philadelphia24411094.5617110.932
    13New England24310474.3417104.742
    14Philadelphia24411094.5617110.932
    13New England24310474.3417104.742
    14Philadelphia24411094.5617110.932
               Att    YDS    yds/att    long     td  yds/game   fum  recovered
    13. NE - 243 - 1047 -   4.3 -      41 -    7 - 104.7 -       4 -        2
    14. phi - 244 - 1109 -  4.5 -      61 -    7 -  110.9 -      3 -         2

    Rusty - these stats are nearly identical -I happen to think the Pats run D is OK - so do the Pats stink too

    Oh by the way - these stats don't take into account the fact that most teams are throwing it more against the Pats  - like Pitt and NYG for example - if those teams run their normal schemes then the Pats stats end up worse then Phi 
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D : Minus 2009, our D hasn't been the weakness for the last 5 years, so he and you are WRONG. Join the discussion about our first half offense being AWFUL. Beantown, I invite you in. lol
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    King,
    I respectfully disagree...since the rule change where they started to enforce the downfield contact rule. We morphed into the current bend but don't break defense and we've yet to have a top 10 defense since...part of the issue is the manner in which Belicheck choses to spend and where...He's for the most part devalued the corner position and hasn't reacted to the lack of depth in the draft of prototype 3-4 linebackers due in part to the copy cat nature of the NFL and more teams employing the 34 and thus placing a premium on tweeners...

    If you want to continue to defend this years defense, fine, stats don't lie and were ranked dead last in yards allowed, we're 28th in 3rd down conversion rate (a far more troubling stat), 16th in total sacks and are in the middle of pack in points allowed. Not exactly a strength. When was the last time the Patriots defense won them a big game? Certainly not last year vs the Jets.

    Bottom line...king is that I like you am an ardent fan of the Pat's. unlike you I don't try to mask what is seen by almost every one of the national pundits as reason #1 why the Patriots have failed to advance beyond the 1st round in each of the last two years...stop Brady and hold us below 20 and we're done! That's been the MO going back to the the Superbowl vs the Giant's...
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]Trent "The Great" Dilfer  on ESPN postgame: To win a Super Bowl you have to have an intimidating defense, says Dilfer. "I see nothing intimidating about this defense. It's better, no doubt about it, but the eight sacks, they're not immediate pressures. There's not immediate pressure on the quarterback when there aren't sacks."   And that was the "nice" part.  He emphatically said the Pats are going nowhere.  Young was mildly nicer saying he'd be sad to see the final years of Brady's career undone by a bad defense.  Last year was "brutal, " he said. This year is "somewhat improved." I truly hope this becomes bulletin board material for these guys to just plow through everyone.   I guess neither Dilfer or Young saw how Green Bay escaped Tampa's close to 500 yards of offense.
    Posted by ipot[/QUOTE]



    Really? Is this what we care about now? Dilfer is an idiot (A lucky no talent one at that) and find me one co-host who likes being on with Young.
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to "Riding with the King" (in italics)

    Young and Dilfer, or even Tedy Bruschi, are told to spin things in such a way to bash Belichick for ratings.  It's a fact.


    Really? Where do you get your info? It's a FACT ?!?!? Do you have some internal documents from WikiLeaks??? E-mails to Bruschi from ESPN CEO or program director? FACT ?!?! REALLY ?!?! You don't think Bruschi is honest or honorable and can speak HIS mind TRUTHFULLY ??? Again, do you have ANYTHING to back up your fantasy as FACT ???

    If you purposely ignore facts and contexts, hence not really covering all the bases within your opinion/premise, this means you are ignoring those facts and contexts on purpose.

    You mean like after the Jets game, saying the D gave the Pats a "short field" all night and THAT is why they  managed to score??? When in REALITY their 3 TD drives were 57, 80, & 84 yards & 3 FG drives 48, 55, & 4 yards. Looks like 1 short field from a turnover

    This means you're being a sneaky little person with an agenda. So, unless you come to play with the big boys and substantiate your premise, you will be called out as a fraud.


    OK, now read that last part out loud, to yourself, while looking in a mirror.
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D : If our D wasn't a good run D, didn't have depth, wasn't good in the red zone, wasn't a solid 3rd down D, etc, I would agree with Young and Dilfer, but it's simply a failed premise.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    You had me until "wasn't a solid 3rd down D". 3rd down has been our Achilles Heal. It is improving weekly, but it has been downright awful
     up to just recently. Up until the last 2 weeks I would rather have seen 3rd and 3 than 3rd and 13, because on 3rd & 3 the other team would maybe run the ball... and we could stop that, but if they need 13, they are GOING to throw it, and pick up the 1st down. It just happened over and over. 1st & 2nd down, the other teams gain little to nothing, or LOSE yards, then on 3rd and 20.... BAM... 25 yard completion
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D : Hmmmm...... interesting how we put 100% faith in one set of numbers (points scored and given up), yet seem to ignore he other stat regarding yards (offensive and defensive). Numbrs ar what they are. BTW, Kansas State gave up over 600 yds in offense to Texas last Saturday, got less than 125 TOTAL in their own offense, and WON the game 19-13. Which one is it: Great offense or great defense? No one fears the Pats defense. No TV talking head gives it credit (none really deserved either), and rakes it over teh coal for the weekly DFL status. Come playoff time, they will NOT ne playing teams ranked in the lower 3rd in offense or defense. I'll start believing in them if/when they: 1) stop giving up plays here it looks like total blown coverage  2) long time consuming drives via their own play book (dink and dunk)  3) start getting pressure sacks within 3 seconds of the snap of the ball  4) start showing a 33% or less 3rd down conversion success.   Defense is usually the determining factor in playoff football. Sorry, but this bunch as they are do not impress me as being able to control the flow of a game. 
    Posted by AZPAT[/QUOTE]

    Hmmmm...... interesting how we put 100% faith in one set of numbers (points scored and given up), yet seem to ignore he other stat regarding yards (offensive and defensive). Numbrs ar what they are.

    this is like saying looking at the trees is as important as a view of the forest. points given up are much more important, given the operation of the defense is specifically based on a philosophy that puts much more importance on preventing the opponent to score than preventing yards.

    this is how bb has always operated his d...and yes, this was true even back in the sb days

    BTW, Kansas State gave up over 600 yds in offense to Texas last Saturday, got less than 125 TOTAL in their own offense, and WON the game 19-13. Which one is it: Great offense or great defense?

    No one fears the Pats defense. No TV talking head gives it credit (none really deserved either), and rakes it over teh coal for the weekly DFL status. Come playoff time, they will NOT ne playing teams ranked in the lower 3rd in offense or defense. I'll start believing in them if/when they: 1) stop giving up plays here it looks like total blown coverage  2) long time consuming drives via their own play book (dink and dunk)  3) start getting pressure sacks within 3 seconds of the snap of the ball  4) start showing a 33% or less 3rd down conversion success.

    i believe you will start seeing these consistently by around wk 14. right now, it looks like they are still experimenting, and slowly building on what they have.

    Defense is usually the determining factor in playoff football. Sorry, but this bunch as they are do not impress me as being able to control the flow of a game. 

     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]

    Careful when you get excited you sound like this

    "And you least  sentence MAKES NO SENSE. I rbinig mountaints of evidence and data"

    Your words from your post.

    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    What have you done for me lately? Lately this nicked up defense, playing without four defensive starters, has played very well.
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    Other than Arrington, Ninokvich, Carter-stud, and Anderson - in limited play...dont see any others having decent to above decent years...
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    You would think that the D had been rebuilding the past few season's with the way their talking... oh wait?

    This defense is a work in progress, new schemes, new wrinkles, new personnel, no training camp... it wasn't going to happen instantly.  I like the look of our D, when the offense and special teams play complimentary football (running the ball) we dominate teams like we did Monday night.
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D : Ok, so you are admitting our offense played poorly again in the second half. Thank you. Two things: 1. Do you think we can do that on the road next week against a rejuvenated Eagles team with nothing to lose AND do you think we can do that in the playoffs this year on offense where we literally don't score points, but we lose field position over and over? 2. Do you think what we are seeeing in theee first halves EERILY reminiscent to last year's playoff loss.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I'll tell you what I see, I see that teams have figured out how to stop the Pats O by getting to TB and not letting him have room in the pocket to throw the ball.  That is what happened in the 07 loss to the Aints and the 09 loss to the ravens and last year's loss to the Jest.  After scoring at will all year they were shocked in the playoff by what the D was doing to them.

    Now for the good news, in those years this didn't happen in the regular season so when it happened in the playoffs they couldn't respond to it.  This year, the Squealers beat them using it, the Jest held them down in the 1st half, but they adapted and changed modes and beat the Jest.  Last night the Chief used the same thing and it worked for a quarter and a half.  As the year goes on and they get better at recognizing the D that is coming at them and they will get better at beating it and it will help them in the playoffs.

    Oh and Jon Gurdon said it pretty good last night, the Pats D is the worst in giving up yardage but there is no yardage posted on any scored in the NFL.  The Pats are 10th in Points allowed this year.  They are third in Point Scored.  I'll take that team any day!
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    I thought Dilfer was really harsh on the Pat's D & Young was only marginally nicer.

    Does our D scare anyone?? NO. But they have excellent depth, seeing how, with ALL the guys who are out or have gone out, the Pat's are still winning games. The D is holding teams to only a few points most of the time, keeping the game in hand until our unusually slow starting offense find their rythym. Too many times this year that means holding the other team down for an entire half.

    The defense is steadily improving, if it continues, who knows how far the Pat's could go. Amazing how much better the front line got once they bounced Haynesworth out the door. Immediate addition by subtraction

     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    This is not a championship defense and not likely to become one this year.  That being said, they are definitely playing better with no less than 4 starters out of the rotation.  So, there is something to be said for that.

    I think what they have learned is how to bend and not break.  There hasn't been a game where the Pats have been blown out, so they are averaging 20 points per game, on defense and almost 30 on offense.

    That's not too bad.  The biggest problem is that we really don't play any outstanding offenses the rest of the way, so it will be difficult to really know what to expect come playoff time.

    Defense is funny.  With good performances, it kind of gets becomes contagious and the players start to believe they are better than perhaps they really are.  If that is the case, we should see a more confident group heading into the last 6 games and if they play the way they have more recently, the Pats will be fine for the playoffs.

    The biggest difference that I see is that we are showing some speed off of the defensive line. No one expects Wilfolk to make plays in the backfield and when we had Painsworth, he was coming across the line slowly, too.

    With Carter, Love, Warren and even Ellis, there is an explosion off of the ball.  If that continues, we will start getting more speed sacks instead of the slower developing coverage sacks.

    I was never a fan of Arrington, but you can't argue with him leading the NFL in picks, and when McCorty comes back, the CB's will be pretty formidable.  I think that the LB corp needs to be better at picking up their man for the shorter crossing patterns, as it seems that they play off of the receiver too often and too far.

    Overall, this is a defense that is playing ions better than the 1st 4 or 5 games and I think it bodes well for the Pats moving into the last few games.

    Just my thoughts!
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D : False.  Our 3rd down D started to get very good in the Dallas game, slipped up in Pitt due to a poor scheme/personnel match, was GREAT agains the Giants, the Jets, and fine last night. Do you really expect any team's D in the this offensive era to force 3 and outs over and over and over? I know our offense hands over 3 and outs with regularity in the first halves of games, but that's another story. lmao Or is it? Take a look at these games. Our offense did NOTHING for extended periods in the Dallas, Pitt, NYGs and each in the 1st half of the Jets and Chiefs games. All facts. Maybe if our own offense actually helped out once in a while by not going 3 and out over and over and over, punting from our end zone, fumbling, throwing totally unnecessary INTs, our 3rd down D would be more consistent???? Hello? Why does the offense not get accountability for an entire half of play, but you then expect 110% energy and 110% success from the D on 3rd downs across 4 quarters? Why is that? Why do you not put any accountability on the his putrid first half offense? Our D outplayed our offense AGAIN last night.  That's been the case in EVERY GAME SINCE DALLAS.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Hi Rusty - here are some real facts

    Pats rank 28 in the league in defending on 3rd down this year
    Pats rank 2 in converting 3rd downs on offense
    Pats are 14 the league in give aways ( turnovers)
    Pats are 27 in the league in # of punts ( only 4 more then the least - GB)

    Rusty - these 'real' facts kind of bust the bubble on your heroic 3rd down D and pathetic 3 and out offense thesis - care to try again

    Rusty - Pats O looked like crap in the 1st quarter last night - the D wasn't much better in the 1st quarter either  - KC with 100+ yards

    Rusty - Pats D had a good game overall last night - but it was against Tyler Palko - the real test is against the Eagles
     
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    Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D

    In Response to Re: Trent DIlfer and Steve Young rip Pats D:
    [QUOTE]This is not a championship offense. Truth hurts.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Rusty - if you are a Pats fan you better hope this doesn't stay true - because the Pats O is the only chance they have to win the SB - there is not a snowballs chance in hell this D carries the Pats in the playoffs - buddy, you have truly gone off the deep end if you think that

    The Philly game ought to tell us something about where the Pats D is - through the wonders of DirectV, a lot of late Patriot games ( and having McCoy and Maclin on my Fantasy team, hey my QB is Brady) - I have seen several of the Eagles games this year - they have a very good offensive team - hoping Vick doesn't play - that will help

    Bottom line - despite their record - the Eagles have the weapons on offense - Rusty - if this D is all you say it is then we'll see on Sunday - I hope you are right
     

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