Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Quagmire3. Show Quagmire3's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    I think I am in the minority on this one, because I agree with Rusty and Pro. Its clear that in the past few years BB has been searching for that hybrid LB/S (think Tank Williams) that is big and physical enough to play in the box and quick enough to match up with TE's. When he couldnt find a suitable trading partner for this pick he probably said "just pick the guy" ala Ras-I. Everyone who has observed Pats practices has had positive things to say about this kid and I dont remember reading anything negative. I know Rodak, Reiss, and company are not NFL scouts, but its better than hearing this guy su cks!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    You are a notoriously quick squirter with this sort of thing numbnuts. Let's hope the kid defies the conventional wisdom that he was taken far too high. But this sort of training camp fluff means little. Training camp is used to see what the new guys can do in the early stages. So, yeah, a 2nd round pick is apt to get some reps.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : Exactly. No one is hoping the kid doesn't do well (lord knows we need him), but to come out and neh nay neh nay nah nah someone after a week and half of training camp and brag about some article written by God know's who, is dumb. I thought he was a reach and didn't like the pick (oh heavens to betsy!!), but I DO hope he does well and will gladly say I was wrong. I did the same with Spikes and it looks like I was wrong - even if the guy gets hurt and never plays again - I was wrong, because he CAN play. What is it with this crap? People can go around and sound off on Brady everyday, but you can't mention the chance that a second round pick was a reach?
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]

    Well, our team picked him so I can see disappointment in the selection but after that we all hope we are the ones with our collective heads up our azz.  Let's hope we are all wrong on this agreed bizarre pick! 

    I sounded off on Brady when it came up but things got really out of hand on the subject.  Now it's grown very stale.  But the war rages on nontheless.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    "Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble..."

    ~I guess, I am too then I suppose...  Don't hate or belittle the man, Tavon Wilson...nor his past play, and certainly not his potential to be a decent NFL player.  Hated the "Value" of the draft pick...'cause despite draft novice's ideas regarding every draft pick being a "random luck of the draw", I know full-well, that the ability to excercise an exceptionally good draft, Has EVERY-Thing to do with BOTH scouting and analyzing a player's ability to it's fullest, AND working the entire Draft Big Board when draft-day unfolds...'cause it's "bang for your buck" which makes great analysises of prospects abilities you like, AND attempting to use the set number of chips that'cha got dealt out to you in order to use on that day, To the fullest and most complete way possible in order to maximize your hall of the greatest number of good prospects you like. 

    Kiper's "off the hook" in my eyes...  I'll take his spot.  Kiper's an !mbec!le of a draft prospect grader and analyzer...  Tavon Wilson wasn't even on Kiper's farthest of radar screens on being a good earlier Rd type of quality prospect in this 2012 Class of draftees.  Bill Belichick took him...so, Mel Kiper coming across his "good prospects" based on friends of his that say "this guy's good", and ultimately Kiper being gvtless and not 1 bit thorough in his 1st hand knowledge and/or scouting...well-  Kiper:  "Good choice- Tavon Wilson=Good choice <now whispering> 'whoInTH is Tavon Wilson?!?'"

    No human on Earth will convice me that acquiring a DT like Devon Still (my preference out of Penn St with that pick), And THEN trading back...just 1 pick-  Ebner one's a good example (1 more kid drafted @ 2 Rds at least, ahead of his projected Big Board area; Unlike Wilson- Rd 2...Projected Round grade at that exact time?  "UDFA"- Lol...and believe me, they even SPECIFY when they say, "6th Rd-UDFA", and/or "7th Rd-UDFA";  Here?  Lol="UDFA"...By EVERY one of SEVERAL draft sites I use year-round...a few of these being "touched up" in individual prospect's grade after-the-fact <as they've began doing the past 2-3 years unfortunately>).

    NO human (well- minus BB handing me a secretly tapped audio of another Coach saying when & where he himself, was going to select Tavon Wilson) on Planet will get me to believe that trading back less than just 1 Rd with any 3rd-5th BB had, or decided to move into during '12 draftday, And THEN selecting Wilson with the 6th or 7th Rder he'd be able to secure in the process- To Take Wilson, While STILL securing Still when he was on the big board at the time of this 2nd Rd Wilson selection...WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED
         Because The Draft is both about your ability to scout and analyze every aspect of a guy's skills and play down to it's most minute, and up to the fullest degree, AND be able to secure certain guys you like, At THE best draft selection price you possibly can.  You tailor your developed analyzing skill of play by practicing your scouting takes and breakdowns over and over and over.  Then during draft, you have this thoroughly cultivated skill at your back, To Play The Odds Game, during the actual draft gambling table that'cha saunter up to with other NFL Coaches & GM's.  There is an INFINITELY greater probability in the "odds game", that guys who are graded over and over as an "UDFA", will not even get selected At All.  And there is an Unimaginably higher chance of probability that guys graded as "UDFAs" (again-over and over, by site after site after site and analyst after analyst's consensus projections) WILL be avaliable for you to secure with a 6th rder or so... (remember "UDFA"...there's a wealth of even higher graded guys given projected targets of "6th Rd-UDFA" or "7th Rd-UDFA").

    Tailor your game and practice your analysises of players and play to No end.  But once draft day comes, Use your cards wisely.  There is example after example of Bill Belichick during the span of Rds 2-Rds 6, VASTLY overreaching for prospects of far lesser abilities and skills than others who were much higher regarded in their play, AND there is example after example of these far lesser-in-talent guys, NOT panning out in the end.  I hate rehashing this too...No, this is not about "hindsight is 20-20" when this is based on greater onsensual and easier to recognize understanding of draftees skill-sets at the actual time in question; No- Logan mankins was given a "Late 2nd-3rd rd" Grade, and belichick took him with the last pick of rd 1 (NOT 1st 1/3rd of rd 2 for an "UDFA" graded guy); No- this is not about taking "good teammates/great off-field work ethic" guys when it's in regards to the the 2nd tiered quality of guys found outside the 1st/first 1/3rd of the 2nd Rd-Mid 5th/1/3rd of 6th Rd prospects and their skills (WhyTH "hamstring" yourself even further by getting a 7th Rd quality of player type vs a 1st rder who's actually slipped down into Rd 2, or an early 2nd Rder in 3 or 4th Rd?!?  Madness); No- Tom Brady was actually a 5th-7th Rd prospect grade...NE got him in the 6th- yes, brady's slightly better than most 6th rders...yes, i can provide you with 6 wasted MULTI-Rd draft huge reaches (2 Rds or more) selections for every no "reach" to nab Brady, or 1 1/2 rd reach for mankins, or just under 2 Rd reach for Vollmer (which is debatable due to his rise right before and leading up to draft day...maybe 1 rd, at most 1 1/2 Rd reach).

    ~~

    Here's what you should know-

    There was an infinitely more greater probability of outcome that NE could've selected Devon Still in Rd 2, slightly moving back w/ any deeper Rd one, in order to secure Tavon Wilson  with the 6th or 7th Rder that they'd secure in the process-
    Vs.
    Doing the excat same, and NOT being able to secure the "UDFA" graded Tavon Wilson anywhere within the latest 5th Rd-throughout the whole of Rd 6- and into the very early portions of a Rd 7 selection.

    Maximize your opportunities and Respect your ultimate chip count, and their very best time, chance, and play, for THE best haul, MUCH better than Belichick has done from 2005-2012 (minus '10, which I talked about 1 day post draft in an authored thread as being "THE best Draft Class in a decade...probably longer." -And was subsequently called: "A Bill Belichick 'Homer'";)  
    Btw, Already said how He played that day like a World Champ- Value, Value, value, Value, Move up here and there outside of Rd 2 on, Move further down and get more picks early on and maximize the value of those lesser moves in Big Board #, Take a QB in the 6th/7th- Always an awesome gamble...BIG payoff chance regardless of you even keeping the guy later on <i.e. trade opps />; 3rd-4th- Take a small risk by jumping a half Rd only IF ya really like a guy (Price); In those 4th-6th areas, nab spots that haven't been svcked dry already <i.e. Interior O-Line <OG, OC>, Get the best Punter in College, etc>; Rds 6th-7th, Nab a good QB to take a long shot, big payoff on...Same with a massive D-Lineman <or 2 as was the case>- 6'4-6'5 300lb+ size doesn't grow on trees, right?  

    ^ You could use this as a FREAK!NG BLUEPRINT, and with even slightly above average scouting, secure An above average NFL Draft Class haul of guys for your team, every year...Every one.

    of note: If Tavon Wilson becomes a pro-bowler and Devon Still is out of the league in 2-3 years, I'll step up even further in my absolute and completely wrong errs.  But if Still does good, and Wilson doesn't...heck (and this is precisely what I'm saying)- IF Still AND Wilson both do good....hmm
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]Yes, he cares what people think and he tries to steer that thinking for his own advantage.  That's what smart people do everyday.
    Posted by tcal2-[/QUOTE]

    C'mon tcal, get-T-F outta here...  WhoInTH does that?!?  No, seriously...I'm being honest here:  I actually go to great links to try do just the opposite of this.  Ooops, hold on now- Ah, sorry 'bout this...Tried to breeze my through, and inevitably failed to account for some of the additional criteria that'cha required in the 2nd part, in order to actually benefit from this mantra here.

     
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    yeah, this war will go on for ever. The doubters will continue to doubt even though they don't really have enough info to warrant their doubting. And those that give the benefit of the doubt, to the people that actually make a living at coaching and evaluating talent as it relates to their winningest team ever, will continue to believe that maybe those folks know something that we, as fans, haven't had an opportunity to learn about a player, will continue to give the benefit of the doubt without enough info to warrant it.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]" Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble ..." ~ I guess, I am too then I suppose...  Don't hate or belittle the man, Tavon Wilson...nor his past play, and certainly not his potential to be a decent NFL player.  Hated the "Value" of the draft pick...'cause despite draft novice's ideas regarding every draft pick being a "random luck of the draw", I know full-well, that the ability to excercise an exceptionally good draft, Has EVERY-Thing to do with BOTH scouting and analyzing a player's ability to it's fullest, AND working the entire Draft Big Board when draft-day unfolds...'cause it's "bang for your buck" which makes great analysises of prospects abilities you like, AND attempting to use the set number of chips that'cha got dealt out to you in order to use on that day, To the fullest and most complete way possible in order to maximize your hall of the greatest number of good prospects you like.  Kiper's "off the hook" in my eyes...  I'll take his spot.  Kiper's an !mbec!le of a draft prospect grader and analyzer...  Tavon Wilson wasn't even on Kiper's farthest of radar screens on being a good earlier Rd type of quality prospect in this 2012 Class of draftees.  Bill Belichick took him...so, Mel Kiper coming across his "good prospects" based on friends of his that say "this guy's good", and ultimately Kiper being gvtless and not 1 bit thorough in his 1st hand knowledge and/or scouting...well-  Kiper:  " Good choice- Tavon Wilson=Good choice <now whispering /> 'whoInTH is Tavon Wilson ?!?'" No human on Earth will convice me that acquiring a DT like Devon Still (my preference out of Penn St with that pick), And THEN trading back...just 1 pick-  Ebner one's a good example (1 more kid drafted @ 2 Rds at least, ahead of his projected Big Board area; Unlike Wilson- Rd 2...Projected Round grade at that exact time?  "UDFA"- Lol...and believe me, they even SPECIFY when they say, "6th Rd-UDFA", and/or "7th Rd-UDFA";  Here?  Lol="UDFA"...By EVERY one of SEVERAL draft sites I use year-round...a few of these being "touched up" in individual prospect's grade after-the-fact <as they've began doing the past 2-3 years unfortunately>). NO human (well- minus BB handing me a secretly tapped audio of another Coach saying when & where he himself, was going to select Tavon Wilson) on Planet will get me to believe that trading back less than just 1 Rd with any 3rd-5th BB had, or decided to move into during '12 draftday, And THEN selecting Wilson with the 6th or 7th Rder he'd be able to secure in the process- To Take Wilson, While STILL securing Still when he was on the big board at the time of this 2nd Rd Wilson selection... WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED .       Because The Draft is both about your ability to scout and analyze every aspect of a guy's skills and play down to it's most minute, and up to the fullest degree, AND be able to secure certain guys you like, At THE best draft selection price you possibly can.  You tailor your developed analyzing skill of play by practicing your scouting takes and breakdowns over and over and over.  Then during draft, you have this thoroughly cultivated skill at your back, To Play The Odds Game, during the actual draft gambling table that'cha saunter up to with other NFL Coaches & GM's.  There is an INFINITELY greater probability in the "odds game", that guys who are graded over and over as an "UDFA", will not even get selected At All.  And there is an Unimaginably higher chance of probability that guys graded as "UDFAs" (again-over and over, by site after site after site and analyst after analyst's consensus projections) WILL be avaliable for you to secure with a 6th rder or so... (remember "UDFA"...there's a wealth of even higher graded guys given projected targets of "6th Rd-UDFA" or "7th Rd-UDFA"). Tailor your game and practice your analysises of players and play to No end.  But once draft day comes, Use your cards wisely.  There is example after example of Bill Belichick during the span of Rds 2-Rds 6, VASTLY overreaching for prospects of far lesser abilities and skills than others who were much higher regarded in their play, AND there is example after example of these far lesser-in-talent guys, NOT panning out in the end.  I hate rehashing this too...No, this is not about "hindsight is 20-20" when this is based on greater onsensual and easier to recognize understanding of draftees skill-sets at the actual time in question; No- Logan mankins was given a "Late 2nd-3rd rd" Grade, and belichick took him with the last pick of rd 1 (NOT 1st 1/3rd of rd 2 for an "UDFA" graded guy); No- this is not about taking "good teammates/great off-field work ethic" guys when it's in regards to the the 2nd tiered quality of guys found outside the 1st/first 1/3rd of the 2nd Rd-Mid 5th/1/3rd of 6th Rd prospects and their skills (WhyTH "hamstring" yourself even further by getting a 7th Rd quality of player type vs a 1st rder who's actually slipped down into Rd 2, or an early 2nd Rder in 3 or 4th Rd?!?  Madness); No- Tom Brady was actually a 5th-7th Rd prospect grade...NE got him in the 6th- yes, brady's slightly better than most 6th rders...yes, i can provide you with 6 wasted MULTI-Rd draft huge reaches (2 Rds or more) selections for every no "reach" to nab Brady, or 1 1/2 rd reach for mankins, or just under 2 Rd reach for Vollmer (which is debatable due to his rise right before and leading up to draft day...maybe 1 rd, at most 1 1/2 Rd reach). ~~ Here's what you should know- There was an infinitely more greater probability of outcome that NE could've selected Devon Still in Rd 2, slightly moving back w/ any deeper Rd one, in order to secure Tavon Wilson  with the 6th or 7th Rder that they'd secure in the process - Vs . Doing the excat same, and NOT being able to secure the "UDFA" graded Tavon Wilson anywhere within the latest 5th Rd-throughout the whole of Rd 6- and into the very early portions of a Rd 7 selection . Maximize your opportunities and Respect your ultimate chip count, and their very best time, chance, and play, for THE best haul, MUCH better than Belichick has done from 2005-2012 (minus '10, which I talked about 1 day post draft in an authored thread as being "THE best Draft Class in a decade...probably longer." -And was subsequently called: "A Bill Belichick 'Homer'";)   Btw, Already said how He played that day like a World Champ- Value, Value, value, Value, Move up here and there outside of Rd 2 on, Move further down and get more picks early on and maximize the value of those lesser moves in Big Board #, Take a QB in the 6th/7th- Always an awesome gamble...BIG payoff chance regardless of you even keeping the guy later on <i.e. trade opps />; 3rd-4th- Take a small risk by jumping a half Rd only IF ya really like a guy (Price); In those 4th-6th areas, nab spots that haven't been svcked dry already <i.e. Interior O-Line <OG, OC>, Get the best Punter in College, etc>; Rds 6th-7th, Nab a good QB to take a long shot, big payoff on...Same with a massive D-Lineman <or 2 as was the case>- 6'4-6'5 300lb+ size doesn't grow on trees, right?   ^ You could use this as a FREAK!NG BLUEPRINT, and with even slightly above average scouting, secure An above average NFL Draft Class haul of guys for your team, every year...Every one. of note: If Tavon Wilson becomes a pro-bowler and Devon Still is out of the league in 2-3 years, I'll step up even further in my absolute and completely wrong errs.  But if Still does good, and Wilson doesn't...heck (and this is precisely what I'm saying)- IF Still AND Wilson both do good.... hmm - 
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]

    Sounds reasonable. My take on what happened...they were expecting Derek Wolfe to be there...Denver took him...one of the many teams that they now have to battle for 34 type of players. Bill has no one to answer to anymore and his team has needs to fill - nothing else on the board was going his way (trades, etc) and he ended up drafting for need in a very weak safety class. He saw value (a kid that can play in multiple spots and special teams) and thought...I can really select Mel Kiper here if I want, who is going to question me? I mean I go to the Super Bowl every other year. So he selected a guy that just may of been rising, in a position he NEEDED.

    Look, Bill has made guys like Maroney and Merriweather servicable. Ellis Hobbs may of been a 6th round pick if it weren't for us and Bill's ability to coach him and put him where he should be. If Wilson is a hard worker and smart, he'll be at least servicable (I truly believe BB can do that for almost any player), he'll keep him over here, or over there - he'll make sure player X never has to be alone covering player Y. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]I think I am in the minority on this one, because I agree with Rusty and Pro. Its clear that in the past few years BB has been searching for that hybrid LB/S (think Tank Williams) that is big and physical enough to play in the box and quick enough to match up with TE's. When he couldnt find a suitable trading partner for this pick he probably said "just pick the guy" ala Ras-I. Everyone who has observed Pats practices has had positive things to say about this kid and I dont remember reading anything negative. I know Rodak, Reiss, and company are not NFL scouts, but its better than hearing this guy su cks!
    Posted by Quagmire3[/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure if Bill is looking for the hybrid big safety or not, but I don't think Tavon is that type of player. The kid they got from Denver who is always injured may be that type, but I don't think Tavon is. They had a safety from Chicago a couple of seasons ago that was that type of guy (can't remember his name), but man could that guy hit and tackle (he was always hurt too, plus he did something in the locker room too and now he's long gone). 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : I'm not sure if Bill is looking for the hybrid big safety or not, but I don't think Tavon is that type of player. The kid they got from Denver who is always injured may be that type, but I don't think Tavon is. They had a safety from Chicago a couple of seasons ago that was that type of guy (can't remember his name), but man could that guy hit and tackle (he was always hurt too, plus he did something in the locker room too and now he's long gone). 
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]
    McGowan I think.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    I think BB's draft board is filled out well in advance and he doesn't start pulling down guys with 7th round grades out of the blue.  I'm sure several of his scouts checked this guy out and came back with 2nd roundish grades.  And maybe BB even saw that and said, show me the video to justify this grade (because they say he does that), and so he got put on the board.

    Now I suppose it's possible that all the scouts the Pats sent to check the guy out said he was garbage and BB just ignored them and picked him in the second but I really doubt that's the way this organization is run. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble


    I also think BB is pretty far ahead of the league (and especially journalists like Kiper) in the way he thinks about players and positions.  I don't think he's looking at guys as conventional "safeties" or "corners" or "LBs" or "DLs"  in any rigid way anymore.  His players seem to morph in their roles and play a lot of hybrid positions.  So you can't look at Tavon Wilson and judge him purely as a traditional safety in a defense that has two corners who defend the edges and two safeties who defend the middle of the field.  I think BB is probably looking at him more as a contributor in 5-DB sets where he may need to come up close and play more like a LB on some plays and then maybe switch to a third corner type role on another play and then move more to a traditional cover-2 safety on a third play.  So if you're Mel Kiper and trying to rank "safeties" you might miss some of the qualities BB is looking for in a player who BB is not envisioning playing a traditional safety role but rather playing some kind of hybrid role where he's expected to do a lot of different things that maybe stretch the boundaries of what traditional safeties are expected to do.  


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    As soon as someone pulls up the last time BB talked about how poorly one of his players plays, ill start putting weight on when he talks good about a player.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : No, I didn't. I didn't even like Meriweather or the pick.  If you want, I'll post an email I have from 2007 during the draft when I was talking about that pick with my friends.  It seemed like an odd 1st rd pick at the time due to Meriweather's involvement in some low character altercations.  Get it? How can I love BB's approach with high character 1st rd picks, but be praising a loose cannon choice in Meriweather?  That doesn't make any sense. You're a liar.  Me saying "someone thinks he's pretty good, because he was picked behind Weddle as a reserve two years in a row for the Pro Bowl" doesn''t mean I think he's good.  Get it?  That's not me selecting Pro Bowl reserves, moron. That means SOMEONE, outside that little, teeny bubble you live in under your Boston Globe at the bus stop on the way to teachcing Home Ec. at Charlestown High, thinks Meriweather wasn't as bad as was painted here in 2009 and 2010 by some Pats fans.  My only defense for him was that he wasn't Harrison and he had to follow in his footsteps. I didn't like his high tackling, angles and apparent low IQ.  You following trolls putting words in my mouth basically makes you a troll.  Every time you get bitchslapped here, you get desperate and then try to backpedal away like a troll. This is another example. Get back to teaching those middle schoolers how to bake cake, professor. lmao Bodden, yeah, great FA signing. He had a great 2009 and then hurt his back which ended his career. It happens.  It doesn't mean Bodden wasn't good. It doesn't mean he wasn't good on awful teams before he was approached to sign here.  He was very good, but injuries are an unfortunate part of the game. It's like saying Bob Sanders stunk because he got hurt. Maroney? Why would I like a tap dancing RB like that? I liked BJGE much more than Maroney the second I saw him in preseason and wanted BJGE promoted sooner. You're wrong across the board, again.  You're never right. Ever.  lol!
    Posted by CliffordWasHere[/QUOTE]
    Your best post ever! You know why? Because you actually said WHY these players weren't good. There was no agenda to cloud what you were trying to say (I imagine that's easier when said player is gone, but hey, it's an improvement). The funny part is I actually agree on Bodden, he was a good player!

    This is where you really need to improve (take notes). You need to understand that just because we spent draft picks to REBUILD this defense over the last 5 years, doesn't mean it's good. It very well could be awesome this year and every single pick we made could be lights out, but last year it wasn't.

    This is the second part (pay close attention, because I'm not going to give you a study guide). You can't CAN'T blame a QB that makes roughly 5 bad plays in the play offs, when he on the other hand made roughly 100 good ones. It just is stupid. He's accurate, mobile enough, smart, tough, ultra competitive and his arm is more than good enough. You can't really say that about 90% of the QB's in the league. WE have that. Conversely our defense was bad covering tight ends, slot receivers and flankers. Our linebackers looked lost in coverage and outside of Wilfork, our defensive line left a lot to be desired. More than 90% of the defenses in football were ranked better than us. It's simple math.

    So yeah, I see a slight improvement in your post! Keep up the good work...here, I'll give you a smiley face   :)     Alright I'll give you another :)
     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : Exactly. As if BB isn't infamous for wanting versatility at most of the positions? Since Wilson lined up at CB and S, in the slot, etc, clearly that was the line of thinking in terms of what BB felt was a need right now for this club. Whether or not Wilson works isn't the question, because we don't know if any rookie in this league will work on their team. But, BB's comments tell me he has a guy he can coach into this league, which is all I care about with rookies. Are they coachable, do they progress and do they fit? Check, check and hopefully check for Wilson.
    Posted by CliffordWasHere[/QUOTE]

    Weather Wilson works out isn't the question? Dude, the guy is a second round pick - those selections are important - you would think he would make it being chosen that high, don't you? I know the draft is a crap shoot, but there's a reason why you have a first round, a second round and so forth...it's because the higher rated guys are slotted. I mean none of them could work out, but we DO spend millions on scouting and slot these guys in some sort of order for a reason.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : He wasn't rebuilding in 5 years. Again, you're wrong. You're just saying that because NE lost SB 42 and Brady blew out his leg in 2008. You're wrong. He started committing heavily to the draft in 2009. He traded back into 2010 from 2009's draft, so this was the time. It was also around the time Adalius Thomas,, BB's last large FA prize (in 2007) appeared to not give him the ROI he wanted, which was true.  One great year, one good year and one bad one isn't a 100% yield for that kind of a signing. So, with a lockout pending, BB scaled it back in 2009 knowing Brady was coming off the blown out leg, clearly wasn't all in in 2009 or even 2010 knowing how young these new players would be here. But, they've taken a lot of hits, had some warts, and they clearly have been through some big battles. In fact, NE's younger players on this team right now? The most battled tested YOUNG group of talent in the NFL. YEP. More so than Houston and even a team like SF this young batch of players can go toe to toe in terms of showing some battle scars so soon in their careers. What other team has this?  What team has this many young players all at once in a SB? NONE. You see this is as some sort of an embarrassment and I don't.  I see it as a good thing. It took patience and it was frustrating in 2010 in the playoffs and last year, but look at the progression.  No Pats fan should be this whiny about this.  You're like a little girl or the fat kid who ran out of Twinkies.  It took Ted Thompson and GB 5 YEARS to unload Favre, develop Rodgers and build a D worthy of a SB team in 2010. Maybe if Brady played like Rodgers in our SB last year, we see a Lombardi here with BB doing it in 3 seasons. You're wrong. BB was not rebuilding in 2007 or 2008.  He was hanging on to older players and filtering in newer players with some FAs.   I would agree his FA moves in 2008 and 2009 weren't very good, but he's certainly made up for that in 2010, 2011 and possibly yet again in 2012. You seem to think the Jets have the right answers, which is embarrssing for you.  You seem to want what the Jets have, which no one here understands. You're insecure on what BB has done and don't understand it and feel inadequate, apparently. The Jets used the old NFL cap way which is get some big names for your base and then try to hit on draft picks.   FAIL. The Jets are 5 years too late with their approach.  You can't do that anymore because QBs make way more and the cap is far lower proportionately than what it was in 2004 or 2005.  You're way out o fyour league on this one, because you aren't in business and don't get it.  No offense, but you Felger, Mazz, the little kids who post here, the trolls, and these other morons all have the agenda. It's the agenda of either being jealous of BB/The Pats, not getting it or being insecure, or just enjoying every year NE doesn't win a SB.  It's comical to me that you still think you can lecture. Jig is up. Expect this team to make SB runs for the forseeable future based off of the way BB has done this.
    Posted by CliffordWasHere[/QUOTE]

    You see, there's a reason why this young defense/team has so much experience in the play offs, etc. It's Brady. There's a reason why GB's pain staking rebuilding process worked...it's their QB. Get it? There's a reason why the Jets won't win a thing this year or next...it's their QB...or lack of.

    You just don't place enough credit on the QB and how they mean so much to the franchise. Yet conversely you think they are supposed to be able to play defense and run out there and catch the passes they're throwing. It's a very funny puzzler with you. 

    And did you write this?
    So, with a lockout pending, BB scaled it back in 2009 knowing Brady was coming off the blown out leg, clearly wasn't all in in 2009 or even 2010 knowing how young these new players would be here. 

    I swear to God that is the dumbest thing I've ever read! BB scaled back? Do you really think these guys "scale" back? Just...eh...we're not going to be any good, let's scale it back. I mean yeah we have a hall of fame QB and we sell out every single game and we're part of the money machine that is the NFL...let's "scale" back! We'll just try not to win now...get our head kicked in, in front of 70k people and millions watching. Bill's not all that competitive so I'm sure he wanted to "scale" back.

    Really?
     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    Wilson seems to be doing what a second round safety can do at this point.  The safety job has a slow learning curve, far worse than, say, a pass-rush defensive end.  So far he's been a good pick for a second rounder (sorry Kiper) but not an outstanding pick. 

    Bonus points to the Patriots scouting organization for both Cunningham and Brace coming alive this preseason.  The team hasn't made too many terrible picks in the first and second rounds, and I encourage them to gamble big on seventh rounders as long as they hit an occasional jackpot.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    Whether Wilson becomes the best safety NE has ever put on the field or is a complete bust I'll take BB and his scouting organization's judgment over Kiper's and TPat's any day. 

    Good to see the kid have a good camp thus far.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]Whether Wilson becomes the best safety NE has ever put on the field or is a complete bust I'll take BB and his scouting organization's judgment over Kiper's and TPat's any day.  Good to see the kid have a good camp thus far.
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

         It wasn't just Mel Kiper and I who questioned this pick (see article below). 

         Neither I nor Kiper had access to the 365 page Patriots' draft report, that BB did. I relied primarily on three (3) scouting report publications for my opinions, along with the college games I watched, and reading multitudes of articles for each team on the draft. Based on that, I was, and still am, of the opinion that Wilson was selected far too high, at #48...and that better options were available to the Patriots, at that time. But...again...I hope I'm proven wrong.

         Here's some good articles on the Wilson pick: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7865727/tavon-wilson-reach-round-2-not-bill-belichick; and http://www.nepatriotslife.com/2012/08/three-patriots-rookies-getting-off-to.html; and http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/58024/another-belichick-second-round-miss; and  http://www.patspulpit.com/2012/5/1/2992801/why-the-patriots-picked-tavon-wilson-in-the-second-round    
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble :      It wasn't just Mel Kiper and I who questioned this pick (see article below).       Neither I nor Kiper had access to the 365 page Patriots' draft report, that BB did. I relied primarily on three (3) scouting report publications for my opinions, along with the college games I watched, and reading multitudes of articles for each team on the draft. Based on that, I was, and still am, of the opinion that Wilson was selected far too high, at #48...and that better options were available to the Patriots, at that time. But...again...I hope I'm proven wrong.      Here's some good articles on the Wilson pick: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7865727/tavon-wilson-reach-round-2-not-bill-belichick ; and http://www.nepatriotslife.com/2012/08/three-patriots-rookies-getting-off-to.html ; and http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/58024/another-belichick-second-round-miss ; and   http://www.patspulpit.com/2012/5/1/2992801/why-the-patriots-picked-tavon-wilson-in-the-second-round     
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Respectfully, TP3, unless the authors of those pieces have a better track record than BB then I'll still stick with him.  And I'm not trying to dismiss your expertise or your opinions; I'm merely stating that I trust BB's judgment in this regard more than yours or the authors of those pieces.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]That's fine, but no one had Brady in 2000 either.

    RESPONSE: Brady was a late 6th round pick, the 199th player taken, overall. Wilson was a mid-second round selection...48th overall.  

    Again, those reports focus on position by postion so it makes sense that a guy who played CB and Safety wou;dn't rank high at either position. Think about it: Brady was taken on and off the field at Michigan, so of course his prodcution looked worse.  Get it? Same deal here.

    RESPONSE: No. Brady turned Michigan's season around in his final year there, and his brilliant play in the Orange Bowl that year propelled Michigan to a come from behind win in that game. In other words, Brady had better credentials than Wilson, based on his college play. Yet, he was still picked late, due to his passing mechanics, and perceived lack of athleticism. For these reasons, Brady was viewed as a project. Accordingly, he was drafted late...where projects should be drafted. 
         Wilson's career at Illinois was nothing special. Granted, he did play out of position last year, volunteering to play CB, for the good of his team. His high selection is based on a projection...developed upon his size, speed, character, special teams play, and overall versatility. 
         But...it's a projection. In other words, he's a project. A second round pick should not be used on projects. It should be used on a guy who has actually shown that he can get it done at whatever position he's played, at college. Guys like Hightower and Jones showed their abilities through some dominating performances in college games. Wilson hasn't had any such games.   
     
    Is this stuff that hard to comprehend? His stats are split between two roles, putting him down the list of players at each CB or Safety.
     
    RESPONSE: Wilson was an average at best CB in college. He's a projection at FS, based on what I mentioned, above. Pure and simple.

    Let me give you a suggestion and this for life in general:  Use your own brain and stick to your guns.
     
    RESPONSE: Seems to me like I'm following your sage advice. I see Wilson as a project. Projects should be selected later in drafts. Furthermore, I'm sticking to my guns on my opinion. That said, I hope to be proven dead wrong...and would like nothing better than to see Wilson turn out to be the second coming of Ed Reed.  

    In no way on earth do I trust ANY Kiper or Kiper wannabe unless I'm listening to someone like Michael Lombardi, a guy who knows exactly how BB thinks.  Mayock is another solid source in this area.

    RESPONSE: Agree with your assessment of Lombardi and Mayock. They were shocked by the Wilson selection, too.
    Posted by CliffordWasHere[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : Respectfully, TP3, unless the authors of those pieces have a better track record than BB then I'll still stick with him.  And I'm not trying to dismiss your expertise or your opinions; I'm merely stating that I trust BB's judgment in this regard more than yours or the authors of those pieces.
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

         Understandable. I hope BB proves to be right, and I dead wrong. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    The quotes by BB sound very optimistic not just about Wilson but about the younger players on the defense overall; "I think he’s coming along. As long as we can keep making progress and keep heading in the right direction, I think eventually it will come together for a lot of these young guys.'' What's not to like when the best coach in the league is feeling good about the youth on his team making progress. Anyway, this thread has been interesting, I've learned a lot and even the hurled insults did not have that full Texas twang to them.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble

    In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uh-Oh - Texas Pat and Kiper In Trouble : Lombardi was not shocked.  Mayock was surprised, sure. But, not shocked.

    RESPONSE: Rusty, Rusty, not so trusty:

         "In Round 2, the Patriots selected Illinois CB Tavon Wilson, which NFL Network's Mike Mayock called a big shock.": http://www.sbnation.com/2012-nfl-draft/2012/4/28/2984835/nfl-draft-grades-patriots


    I was surprised 2 years ago when BB took Vereen and THEN Ridley. Frankly, I don;t know why anyone is shocked when it comes to BB. There is a method to the madness.
     
    RESPONSE: He has squandered many high draft choices, from 2006-09. For that reason, he has his doubters:  http://boston.sbnation.com/new-england-patriots/2012/4/30/2989442/2012-nfl-draft-biggest-steals-and-reaches-tavon-wilson-new-england-patriots/in/2741261

    I compared Brady and Wilson specifically to counter your "rankings" for NCAA PROSPECTS as a source, and the idea that production is how these analysts rank, including what conference they play in. It's nothing more than a reference sheet. It's not set in stone even if Kiper thinks it is.

    RESPONSE: Brady was a project, who became perhaps the greatest QB in NFL history. Nobody knew what Brady would amount to...or he wouldn't have lasted til #199 overall.  

    He's clearly a dork who  has never really done anything else with his life, but pretend his rankings are the end all be all. I am not comparing anything past that.
     
    RESPONSE: Why are you ragging on Kiper? He knows all of the players available, and gives an approximation of where each player will be picked. In that, he's usually right.

    As BB said, Brady was benched and then re-emerged and played great as a winner, winning big games, but because his stats weren't there, he fell down the boards.
     
    RESPONSE: No! Did you watch the special on Brady? I believe it was entitled , The Brady 6", in which it discusses the 6 other QBs taken ahead on him in the 2000 draft. Brady was drafted low not because of his production at Michigan, but because he was viewed as a slow-footed, non-athletic, average at best passing arm QB. With hard work and drive, he made himself the player that he is today.
         Wilson didn't have that kind of production at Illinois...but is viewed by BB as having the requisite physical tools to become a starting caliber FS. In other words, he's a project. 


    The crux of the point is that in each case, BB looks for intangibles that don't show up on paper and his mind, the scouts minds, etc, that trumps the data that is used to rank prospects. In other words, they project how a player will fit in the FUTURE the same way BB attaches a price to a current Pats player and within that, how he pays them. He pays on projections and he drafts the same way.
     
    RESPONSE: Oh hell no! BB pays only after a player has produced...like Gronk and Vince Wilfolk did. Whether he pays depends upon whether the player is likely to continue to be productive in the future. That's why Wes Welker isn't getting a long term deal. He's produced, but, he's at an age where his skill set is likely to decline over the next year or two. 

    It's the only way to make sure you minimize damage in the cap era. BB adds picks as much as any GM, too, so when he does miss, it does't hurt as bad. Anyway, I feel BB's particular word choices in describing Wilson are more than interesting.    Maybe next time don't over-react on draft day. We seem to have know-it-alls here who think they're superior to BB the GM.

    RESPONSE: My opinion on Wilson is still the same. Even BB makes mistakes. I hope Wilson doesn't turn out to be one of them.
    Posted by CliffordWasHere[/QUOTE]
     

Share