Heading into regular season games, it appears that our passing game remains the Patriots biggest strength.
Prior to this past draft, our pass rush was our #1 need. The loss of Warren didn't help that. Now with the loss of Bodden, what is the Patriots' biggest weakness at this point?
Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
-
Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 6:02 AM EDT
- BubbaInHawaii
- Posts: 3226
- First: 6/13/2008
- Last: 1/1/2013
-
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 6:16 AM EDT
- bubthegrub2
- Posts: 2279
- First: 11/21/2007
- Last: 2/7/2012
I'd just say the defense overall. It seems strange saying this, but right now the LB corps looks like the strength of the D! For years the D line was one of (if not the) best in the NFL. Now that Seymoure is gone and Warren is out it's a different story. Wilfork is one of the best, but he needs guys on either side. This will either expose the young secondary...or make them step up in a big way. If the rush isn't there teams will go deep early and often on them. And even though the offense is looking it's best since the 07 season, we all saw that you need a good defense once winter comes. I'm hoping they can get some help after the cutdowns. They need some depth at DL. I think this secondary has the potential to be as good as the 03 team, but they need to bring it to the field. Bill has his work cut out for him. The Bungles with their two "jokers" (Batman and Robin indeed!) will be a good test. I'm more concerned about the front three myself. They need some consistency there if they want to get off the field on 3rd downs, and that seems to be their biggest weakness. Of course, you can't always judge by what you see in August! -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 9:42 AM EDT
- themightypatriotz
- Posts: 2851
- First: 8/29/2009
- Last: 11/4/2011
Offense is the biggest weakness. Completely inconsistent last year, fizzling out in the second half, three turnovers in our own territory to open up against the Ravens, 4 punts to open against the Rams, only one TD against Falcons starters if Gostowski doesn't win best actor, no split end, a panzy and a bunch of old men at RB.
D will continue to do what it does every year. Give up short and intermediate passes all game but keep the other team out of the endzone for most of the game. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:18 AM EDT
- ronf
- Posts: 383
- First: 5/13/2009
- Last: 9/12/2011
The Pass rush was and is the big problem! If you pressure the QB he'll force a pass and make a mistake. If you give him lots of time in the pocket then even all pro CBs don't look good. Pretty simple! The Bodden injury will not make that much difference. Perhaps it's biggest impact will be that the Patriot 1st rd draft pick will end up being a higher more valuable pick than the Raider's 1st rd pick the Pats now hold. This is year two in a three year plan by Belichick to rebuild the Patriots. Next years draft yields four very valuable picks. They'll get their big time pass rusher!
As for the Offense, it will be vastly improved compared to last year as the Pats now have two TOP FLIGHT additions in Gronkowski and Hernandez! These guys are the real deal. Vohlmer and Crumpler is a great blockers! The Pats will run the ball much this year. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:24 AM EDT
- russgriswold
- Posts: 3621
- First: 1/2/2007
- Last: 1/4/2011
I vote rush, because over 4 quarters we aren't sure how it will look and I feel even young CBs like McCourty and Butler can play man coverage very well due to speed and athleticism.
I am not sure they'll get many INTs to start the year.
I think that has a chance to come as the season goes where BB thinks he has the confidence to call zone during a game.
For now, the quality and depth on the edge is in question and that is a fair concern.
I do feel it will be BETTER, though, than the last year's version, which I felt was pretty much anemic.
Finally, Ty Warren has NOTHING to do with a pass rush. He was never known as a rusher. He was more known as a run stopper. A run stopper who has had a myriad of nagging injuries the last 2 seasons. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:29 AM EDT
- russgriswold
- Posts: 3621
- First: 1/2/2007
- Last: 1/4/2011
In Response to Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?:Offense is the biggest weakness. Completely inconsistent last year, fizzling out in the second half, three turnovers in our own territory to open up against the Ravens, 4 punts to open against the Rams, only one TD against Falcons starters if Gostowski doesn't win best actor, no split end, a panzy and a bunch of old men at RB. D will continue to do what it does every year. Give up short and intermediate passes all game but keep the other team out of the endzone for most of the game.
Posted by themightypatriotz
Definitely a secondary factor with how this D can look. Absolutely. We have been harping on this all offseason and into preseason where we know the offense and playcalling has an effect on your D's position and impact during each half and 4 quarters. No doubt.
BB apparently calls this aspect a portion of "complementary football".
Also, Special Teams (punting in particular) and kick off returns, also factor in to how much more BB can scheme, etc.
He's going to be conservative in certain situations and more aggressive in others.
Definitely a factor.
If they run the ball, control the clock, punt consistently, etc, the defense looks better. It's that simple. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:40 AM EDT
- Pancakespwn
- Posts: 954
- First: 7/1/2009
- Last: 8/22/2012
I would say the defense as a whole is a weak link.Think about it.D Line- Warren-Wilfork-Brace Above average because of WilforkLBs- Cunningham-Mayo-Spikes/Guyton-TBC/Burgess Depending on Mayo average right nowCorners- Darius-McCourty-Wilhite-Wheatley Average barley above average depends on Darius's growth.Safeties- B-Dub, Chung- Above average Chungs going to have his moments and then big low lights.Defense wise its going to be a bridge year probably top 10 D, some really great moments but then times where the D cant get off the field. Its going to be tough at times and some people will jump off the bandwagon but we will see true colors this year. Offense the team will be carried to 10-11 wins just by Brady and moss alone. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:45 AM EDT
- Tcal2
- Posts: 5781
- First: 1/19/2010
- Last: 12/17/2010
Let's play a few real games first before we assess the team weaknesses -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:54 AM EDT
- antibody
- Posts: 3460
- First: 7/27/2009
- Last: 6/17/2013
Not to belabor the point but it definately starts with pressure on the QB. Given enough time even a fat old man like me could complete passes. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 10:59 AM EDT
- DBCoach
- Posts: 206
- First: 11/5/2008
- Last: 3/28/2012
Belicheck lack of help from the Personal standpoint and no real coordinators is the pats weakness....
-
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:02 AM EDT
- russgriswold
- Posts: 3621
- First: 1/2/2007
- Last: 1/4/2011
Lack of help from a personal standpoint?
What does this even mean? -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:03 AM EDT
- chrisakawoody
- Posts: 1962
- First: 9/21/2008
- Last: 1/23/2013
Yeah, got to go with pressure at the QB, which is the line (weaker this year) and the LBs. At least the DBs will be young, with fresher legs, and shoukld only get better as the season progresses. But I guess you could say that about all the D positions with youth.
Like a wrote before, this is the second rebuilding year of three, maybe four. This team will be stacked by 2012 or 2013 - even with F/A losses. Just got to be patient and enjoy this season's team for what it is - a work in progress (hence the Seymour trade). -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:06 AM EDT
- ATJ
- Posts: 3114
- First: 8/31/2009
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?:Let's play a few real games first before we assess the team weaknesses
Posted by Tcal2
Now why would we employ a common sense approach like this when we can engage in a chicken-little exericise about how the lack of a pass-rush or the youth and inexperience of the secondary will bring about the demise of Western Civilization? Come on, Tcal2, get with the program. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:16 AM EDT
- russgriswold
- Posts: 3621
- First: 1/2/2007
- Last: 1/4/2011
Why is the line "weaker"?
Why do people keep saying this?
Did anyone watch BB's D fluster Gomer last year, and then when TBC and Ninkovich went down, Ty Warren and Jarvis Green did really nothing in the second half to pressure Manning?
Did you wonder why the rush disappeared with supposed useless edge rushers?
Give me health on the front 3. That's all I ask because I know Ty Warren hasn't played that well here in a 2 years and Jarvis Green was never an every down 3-4 DE here.
G. Warren and Mike Wright should at least be equal, if not improvments.
I am curious to see Cunningham tonight, too. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:48 AM EDT
- chrisakawoody
- Posts: 1962
- First: 9/21/2008
- Last: 1/23/2013
In a way, you can think of A.T. as a "draft" pick since they traded picks for him, and he was a stud in 2007, might have been SB MVP if they had won, then got injured after a strong start to 2008, and only in 2009 soured with BB/Pats. It looks like he was never really used to best effect. Time will tell based on waht he does with the Jets. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:56 AM EDT
- freediro
- Posts: 5513
- First: 9/13/2009
- Last: 6/10/2013
In Response to Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?:Belicheck lack of help from the Personal standpoint and no real coordinators is the pats weakness....
Posted by DBCoach
Thank you! The offensive coordinator was garbage last year and he is there again this year. He better have learned something new or all the teams will be ready for our offense, jus like last year. I have to agree with some one other post above me, that our offensive, last year, had to many missed opportunities and costly turnovers.At the same time, our lack of pass rush is infuriating to watch, especially then watching our secondary get burned on the same play just makes it sad. But who knows, season could start and the team could be clicking perfectly fine. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 11:58 AM EDT
- chrisakawoody
- Posts: 1962
- First: 9/21/2008
- Last: 1/23/2013
In Response to Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?:Belicheck lack of help from the Personal standpoint and no real coordinators is the pats weakness....
Posted by DBCoach
You may have hit the root of the problem.
First, there is the obvious consequence of the brain-drain.
Second, you have a H.C. who is taking on more and more spinning plates each year. I am 46 and athletic, but I have only 3/4s the energy I had 10 years ago. How old is BB? How much extra has he taken upon his shoulders since joining the Pats 10 years ago? Something has to give. You have to wonder if he does not have the same patience in dealing with the talent that he once did. It seems like too many of the players are not responding to him since the house-cleaning of last year. But I hope I am wrong. I am not a fly on the wall in Gillette, but I do know human nature from my sales and management experiences, and the clues I am seeing are not comforting. Then again, I am comparing very different worlds. I never had the authority to order my clients or my subordinates to run laps. Maybe it is just all a consequence of the growing pains of a youth movement. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:09 PM EDT
- NoMorePensionLooting
- Posts: 1055
- First: 2/2/2010
- Last: 6/19/2013
I'm actually liking what I am seeing on the offensive side of the ball. I believe our pass rush (or lack of) will be a sore spot. It will allow our young secondary to be exposed. I believe it will expose our belly as I am concerned about Mayo and Spikes in pass defense over the middle. But I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best!! -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:36 PM EDT
- themightypatriotz
- Posts: 2851
- First: 8/29/2009
- Last: 11/4/2011
Wow ever since the Giants Super Bowl this board has been nothing but pass rush envy. I don't know what you all have been watching but most games the past few seasons we have put pressure on the QB only to see him get a quick release out for a completed pass. That is a coverage issue, not a pass rush issue. And maybe you should try watching other games because most teams do not pressure the QB any more than the Pats do. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:38 PM EDT
- themightypatriotz
- Posts: 2851
- First: 8/29/2009
- Last: 11/4/2011
Oh and if you watched the Giants Super Bowl again you would notice that the Giants had excellent coverage most of the game. Plenty of plays where Brady had time to throw but everyone was covered and he couldn't squeeze it in there or his throw was off. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:44 PM EDT
- NOISE
- Posts: 1489
- First: 6/9/2008
- Last: 6/19/2013
It all starts on the line - so going to have say D-line. Before even any games being played, right now on this roster, we know none of them require double teams...If you have a great Line/Pass rush then your secondary should be fine. If you let QB's sit back there and wing it, the secondary could be in trouble too....
-
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:50 PM EDT
- chrisakawoody
- Posts: 1962
- First: 9/21/2008
- Last: 1/23/2013
In Response to Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?:Constant changes in coordinators definitely hurts. I was kind of mad when Weiss and Crennel went to KC. I wouldn't have minded getting that formula back here.
Posted by tompenny
Yeah, I felt that way, too. But from their PsOV, it made much more sense - they both had to restore their reps independent of BB. -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:53 PM EDT
- dboss
- Posts: 5064
- First: 7/3/2005
- Last: 1/17/2011
pats are still in the midst of rebuilding the defense.
Pass rush is defintely the weak link and will remain that way unless they do more blitzing. Secondary could develop and be very good but we have never seen this young group play together.
A strong pass rush can offset a weak secondary and a strong secondary can offset a weak pass rush.
dboss -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 12:56 PM EDT
- chrisakawoody
- Posts: 1962
- First: 9/21/2008
- Last: 1/23/2013
In Response to Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?:I'm actually liking what I am seeing on the offensive side of the ball. I believe our pass rush (or lack of) will be a sore spot. It will allow our young secondary to be exposed. I believe it will expose our belly as I am concerned about Mayo and Spikes in pass defense over the middle. But I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best!!
Posted by 183CLV
I generally agree with you, save for the OL. Playing w/o Mankins is going to be rough, and IF he comes in later, can we expect him to contribute?
The Pats are supposed to have good RBs, but they have not really performed lately. Is it them? Or the OL? I think it is the line. (Though in Maroney's case - especially after he made his annual "It's my year" speech last month, I have given up al hope on him and hope he gets cut. He is an under-performing, choking egomaniac who cannot keep his mouth shut when everybody else knows he should.) -
Re: Weakest Link. Pass Rush or Secondary?
posted at 9/2/2010 1:06 PM EDT
- DaBlade
- Posts: 1619
- First: 6/29/2009
- Last: 5/23/2013
Defensive schemes are built around the trenches. You first need to conttroll the line of scrimmage then you need to apply pressure on the ball and you do that by the pass rush, either by funneling the ball carrier to a tackler or by getting to the QB before he can find an open reciever. It is only when all that fails you need a secondary. (exceptions have to be made for top recievers and QB's as they will usually get their fair share of plays)
My worry is the pass rush. But we will see.