Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams : Well, he's right about ifs, but he's wrong about which direction this batch of talent leans. That is for sure. His premise could be addressed to 80% of NFL offenses.
     
    RESPONSE: Come now. The Pats' offense last year was one of the top 5 in the NFL...with Wes Welker. But, we saw a glimpse of the offense minus Welker in the Ravens' 33-10 playoff demolition of the Pats. Take away a top weapon from any of the few very good offenses in the league, and are they as good or better? Most prognostications have Welker coming back sometime in November. Minus training camp, adequate preparation time, and saddled with a questionable knee, who knows whether he can be even a reasonable facimile of what he once was? 

    Almost every analyst predicts Gronkowski to be a starter from day 1.

    RESPONSE: Sure he'll  start. Who else do they have? But, how effective will he be? Will his back hold up?

    This is my opinion as well.  That alone is an upgrade over Watson.

    RESPONSE: You hope...but you don't know. that's a lot to ask of a rookie with a bad back, who hasn't played a down in over a year.  

    Crumpler is a pro. I have no way of envisioning Crumpler at worst being the 2nd or 3rd TE as a blocker or a goal line player in reserve.  He'll help.
     
    RESPONSE:  If he's healthy, and if the old war-horse has anything left.

    I might remind you that the TE position was not used enough and not very strong in this offense for many years.
     
    RESPONSE: What makes you so sure that the TE position will be used more in the passing game? The TE change may signal a return to more "smash-mouth" style football. 

    Hernandez was clearly a steal in Round 4. Again, more competition at a WEAK position. This is the key. ONE player will upgrade this position.
     
    RESPONSE: How do you know what Hernandez will do when he hasn't played a down? We know what Ben Watson, Dallas Clark, and Tony Gonzalez are capable of, because we saw them perform. Just because you add players to compete for a respective position doesn't automatically mean that play at the position will improve. 

    NE needs ONE FLANKER to emerge opposite Moss.  This is Holt or Tate, and at worst case, it's Patten or Price.
     
    RESPONSE: The Patriots needed ONE FLANKER to emerge last year, too. Unfortunately, one never did. Holt is old, Patten is old and tired, and Price is extremely raw.

    Galloway did not emerge because he didn't adjust to what is needed in this offense and that is route running.  Not speed, but route running.
     
    RESPONSE: Pleeeaaassseee!!! Galloway didn't produce because  he was 57 years old. He didn't have the heart or the inclination, at his advanced age, to catch balls in a crowd.

    Also, Tate wasn't ready last year and Aiken and Slater were only STS guys. Edelman ascended but got hurt. Apparently, we disagree how impressive Julian Edelman is in the slot role. He may not be Welker, but he sure is a good looking young slot WR who gets it.
     
    RESPONSE: The Pats were so desperate for a WR opposite oss last year, that they, in my view, rushed back Brandon Tate, before he was ready. The result? A second injury to the same knee...and an extremely murky future.
    Edelman showed that he could contribute, but he's no Welker.

    Clearly, on paper, the WR position is far deeper as is the TE position.
     
    RESPONSE: I don't see it...especially with Welker in limbo. Patriot fans felt good about the Watson/Baker TE duo going into last year...and some thought that Joey Galloway, Greg Lewis, and Terrence Nunn provided excellent depth at WR...to Randy Moss and Wes Welker. As we know, those optimists were wrong on both counts.  

    This should not even be a debate. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but there is something wrong with contrarian behavior with irrational logic.

    RESPONSE: "Contrarian behavior"?? What's that?? You think I'm saying these things just to be difficult?? LOL!! Irrational thinking? Isn't putting a ton of faith in rookies, and expecting Wes Welker, Tate,  and Gronk to bounce back from serious injuries as if nothing happened, "pie in the sky" mentality?

         THAT SAID...I hope I'm 1000% wrong...and that you're 1000% right!! 


    Posted by russgriswold

     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    Bottom line is the TE position adds two good blockers and that upgrades the O Line, pass protection and running game overnight.
     
    RESPONSE: None of us know that. But, if healthy, Gronk and Crumpler should improve the running attack.

    You are comparing Galloway to Holt, the latter a future HOFer and 4 years younger in their st seasons in NE?  You are comparing Greg Lewis to Edelman? See?
     
    RESPONSE: You are omitting the fact that the Patriots are entering the 2010 season minus Wes Welker. Do I think that Holt and Edleman are improvements over Galloway and Lewis? Yes. But, without Welker, there's no way the Pats' offense is elite.

    Pretty hard to be such a contrarian when it doesn't really add up.
     
    RESPONSE: What the hell are you talking about? Again, you're failing to factor in that Welker won't be available for most, if not all, of the upcoming season.

    Right there, you have two better versions at WR v.s. what you had last year in camp.  Also, Galloway was never a route runner. Ever.  Meanwhile, that's Holt's entire skill set at this point and it always was a strength. Patten is old, but he knows where to be.  Worst case he's a 6th WR.

    RESPONSE: Again, you're conveniently leaving out that the Pats are starting the season without their go-to guy, Welker. The Pats usually carry just 5 WRs. They'll likely be Moss, Holt, Edelman, Price, and Aiken. Not nearly what the Pats had in their 2007 hey-day, with Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Stallworth, and Washington.

    Posted by russgriswold

     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Here's some more "contrarian behavior" and "irrational thinking", from Peter King of SI: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/05/16/ranking/index.html?eref=sihp
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    Interesting read and pretty solid.  I do have a few nits to pick - Slot receiver in the article assumes Julian Edelman won't get better or that Welker won't heal up.  I don't think either is the case, especially with Welker progressing farther than I think a lot of people expected.
     
    RESPONSE: I have my doubts on Welker ever returning to be 100% of what he was. It's the way he plays...his uncanny ability to cut and accelerate. If he doesn't rush back, he has a chance. But, being the competitive guy that he is...he might rush things.

    The Jets issues go way beyond running backs - their quarterback didn't progress as the year went on.

    RESPONSE: His knees are likely worse than they're letting on. His health, as well as whether he improves, are question marks.

    Posted by STP43FAN

     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    I think they are all major concerns.....Noone is gonna get excited about a 3rd rd WR that nobody heard of, and supposedly played in a bad offense...(how does that help), and the fact we wasted a 2nd rd pick on a 1st rd talent(?)  Chad Jackson who never did anything...Im gonna hier on the side of caution...  I agree we rushed back Tate, I agree Maroney regressed, and We still havent replaced Seymour as the guy Brace didnt play at all, Pryor was used inside,a nd we pick up G.Warren and the carolina guy both of whom are inside players...so all legit concerns IMO, but we did use a lot of picks..so obviously BIll feels good about Maroney, ??? and feels one of his 15 lineman can play RE, lets hope so
    Posted by patsfan76


         Really, patsfan76...such "contrarian behavior" and "irrational logic" cannot be tolerated!! LOL!!!!

        
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wizardsjag. Show Wizardsjag's posts

    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    There's quite a few positions that I'm really interested to see how things turn out this year.

    1. Can Holt, Tate, or Price become a reliable outside receiver that will give Brady another option and stop teams from ganging up on Moss?

    2. How much will Edlemann progress year two with a season and some good playing time under his belt, and the fact that Welker will miss around 1/2 a season?

    3. Who will fill Seymour's old spot this year and can we get any improvement over Jarvis Green from last year?

    4. The OLB who will they be and can they bring in a consistent pass rush?

    5. Will Spikes overtake Guyton for the inside linebacking position?

    6. Will either Butler, McCourty, Wilhitte, or Wheatley step up their game and give us a solid set of CB with Bodden?

    7. Will the right side of our o-line hold up, mainly can Neal stay healthy, some discussion here on Kaczur going to guard, could we see Light switch from LT to RT, or will Vollmer occupy RT?

    8. Can our running back committee keep their 120 yards per game average from last year?

    9. How will our TE's perform this year after the turnover?

    Right now still expecting the Pats to be around a 10-11 win team, with an outside chance at a Super Bowl. Quite a few questions for this team heading into the season.
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams : 1. Yes.  I find it hard to believe that all 3 fail.
    2. I am sold on Edelman right now in the slot.  I am not sure why this is a concern.  He immediately was a force in Week 2.
    3. Good question. It remains a question. Mike Reiss is hinting at Gerard Warren converting to DE in a 3-4.  It makes sense.  Similar measurables as Seymour (although not the same position or Defense or career success) and he's a hungry vet who has never played on a good D before.  Huge question, and it should be interesting to see who ends up there.

     4. The pass rush is contigent upon everyone on the line in a 3-4, especially how the DE and OLB work together. Huge question, but between 6 or 7 candidates and interesting OLB pick in the draft, we shall see.  Clearly, this and DE are the biggest ones, but people need to realize they have some talent here.  Just because a name we aren't familiar with isn't penciled in, doesn't mean this will be a weakness. In fact, I think they will have a better rush this year. 5.  If not Spikes, it might be McKenzie.  I expect one of them to, yes. McKenzie is the favorite based on his apparent hard work. Let's hope it translates.  Guyton is not a fit as an every down MLB, but he wasn't awful either. Improvement needed, yes. 6. Same deal here at LCB. I fully expect Butler or McCourty to take the role and do well.  I actually think this team's secondary is going to be a strength. Absolutely. Some nice talent, the pieces just need to fall into place. It's right there.  This is similar to the OLB spot, but there is more definitive talent for the LCB job. 7. Yes, Vollmer is an All Pro in the making right now.  With him at RT, it solidifies the line on that side. Neal needs to be healthy.  Fingers crossed. 8. I think this is an absolute yes. The better question is, can they seal games in the second half by running it and scoring TDs.  YES. With the addition of the TEs, this will help across the board. No more stacking the lines with the predictable offense they have been running.  You can't do that with these TEs. Agreed on the question marks. Good post.  Some are going to say they have too many, while I feel they have addressed the weak spots and the competition will be fierce. That's all I can ask.
    Posted by russgriswold


    Think most of the questions I have with the team will end up with positive answers. At least better options than last year. Lot of young guys that need to get some time on the field to prove themselves. I'm sure many will and by the end of the year these won't be questions.

     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams :...I am not ommitting anything.
     
    RESPONSE: Let me get this straight. You feel that Edelman will adequately replace Welker...and between him, and the rookie TEs, they will replace his production...and the Pats' won't miss a beat...is that right?  

    You'd have to be blind to think Edelman cannot handle the slot role effectively. He did it last year MANY times as a rookie. I don't need All Pro slot play from him and 112 receptions to know that role is covered and covered well.

    RESPONSE: Edelman will make Patriot fans forget about Welker?

    Throw all the 2007 offense stats out the window. Forget the Moss/Welker concept. It's done.  They ain't reverting back to it. They'll use it, but expect more of the pre 2007 offense from here on out.
     
    RESPONSE: So, you're saying that the Patriots, with their finesse OL and ancient RBs, are going to play "smash-mouth" football? 

    You think Patten came in by accident?
     
    RESPONSE: I think Patten came back to retire as a Patriot. If he makes the team at age 35, it's an indictment of the WR corp.

    Expect more running and more TE use. There is nothing left for Edelman to prove here. He went from a 7th rd pick QB to having over a 100 yards receiving in Week 2. If he didn't break his arm, the Pats likely wouldn't have lost a few games in mid season. That's how effective he was. Check it off the list.

    RESPONSE: Edelman had a couple of good games as a reserve...and he has nothing left to prove? And you accuse me of being irrational??

    When Welker comes back mid season, hopefully, he will be nothing more than a great add to a team making a run at the division.
     
    RESPONSE: Welker was the Patriots' offense last year. The Pats will be no where near the same offensive team without him.

    You have this ridiulous habit of giving the non superstar Pats player no credit and you have an issue seeing how players can improve certain positions on the field.
     
    RESPONSE:  Sorry...but I'm a realist. I choose not to fantasize when it comes to  the Patriots. Yeah, I know...there I go again being "contrarian"...LOL!!

    Some Pats fans have become so fixated on the Moss/Welker thing, they forgot who led this offense before, then and now.

    RESPONSE: The Patriots have vastly different personnel in 2010, than they had in 2001-2004. Their OL isn't as physical, there's no Corey Dillon, Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown, and Kevin Faulk has gotten old. Their defense isn't nearly as good as those teams that preceded them. The rules of the game have substantially changed. Thanks to the Polian Passing Rules, the NFL has become a passing league...and the only way to stop the pass is through superb CB play (which the Patriots don't have), or by getting to the opposing QB (which the Patriots' cannot do).  

    It's still all about Brady.

    RESPONSE: Yes...if he's protected, and is given enough weapons with which to work his magic.

    Posted by russgriswold

     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         The spectre of Mark Sanchez and his wounded knee looms over the Jets' hopes in 2010: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/nfl/05/17/sanchez.ap/index.html
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams


    I'm not as concerned with the offense as much as I was prior to the draft. I think we have the POTENTIAL weapons to score points, and am confident with Brady at the helm a year plus removed from his knee surgery, he will be back to Brady of old. The offensive roster looks stronger than last. That is a positive sign. I am not going to guarantee any level of success with certain players, but I think we all can agree the potential is there to score points as a total offensive unit. And, I think this can be done over 4 quarters, unlike we saw last year when the offense somewhat disappeared come the 2nd half. In summary, I think we can have sustained game success scoring points. Again, just my opinion based on the potential of this roster.

    Now the question I have is can we secure leads and win games on the road and in the second half? So, with that, my question is around the defense as there are a lot of questions around the pass rush, who will play OLB, what 2nd year players will step up, who is our RDE in our 3-4, etc., etc., etc.

    Wizardsjag above brings up a lot of good questions. Specifically questions 4 and 5 around the OLB, pass rush, who will overtake who, etc....
    One of the questions I have as well is around LB. Not specifiying OLB or ILB, just LB. Based on our current roster, I think Mayo, McKenzie and Spikes could all be legit 3 down LB's. Perhaps SPikes to a lesser degree during passing downs. Is there a chance that Mayo could be moved to OLB, and we use Spikes/McKenzie at ILB? OR, could McKenzie play OLB spot with Mayo and Spikes inside?

    Given Mayo's speed (faster than McKenzie & Spikes), I think he might be able to play OLB. I don't see this day 1 as McKenzie and Spikes probably need some help inside learnign the defense, but perhaps the ability exists to move Mayo and McKenzie around between OLB and ILB. 

    I personally like this better than TBC/Burgess at OLB. 

    Thoughts?...let the whipping begin!


     
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    TP - I sometimes worry about Rusty - could you imagine with his blind faith what Manson could have turned him into?  
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    TxPat,

    I didn't want to copy that long post you gave Wizardjag.

    Miami - You have to like what this team has done.  This is the team to look out for, not the Jets.

    Jets - This team does ride on the shoulders of Sanchez.  You have to wonder what they were thinking when it comes to the running game they had last year.  Boggles the mind!  A team that is truly built on hype.

    Colts - The OL's weakness is in the running game, not pass blocking which is what it's all about in Indy.  But hey, it works.  With no seemingly competition coming from the other teams within it's division the Colts will rule once again.

    Bolts - A very talented team that does mirror the Pats in a manner.  The defense is showing weakness but I expect the offense to be good with Rivers at the helm.  They will make it to the playoffs but that will be about it.

    Steelers - The Roethlisberger mess has got to hurt.  The WR corp is in shambles.  Baltimore and Cincinnati will probably shut the Steelers out of a playoff berth.  It's a shame what's happened to this franchise.  I don't expect them to be down long though.

    Packers - A team that will challenge the Vikings for sure even if Favre returns.  If Favre doesn't return it's the Packers division to be had.

    Pats -  There are holes yet to fill.  I've said all along that it would take this years draft and the next to fix this thing and that's hitting on all the draft selections.  It looks encouraging.  I liked the draft where in other years I had a lot of questions.  This year I had none.  The Pats did fill holes.  Try filling out the starting roster and it's tough doing so.  I don't think Tate reinjured the knee as in needing some kind of surgury.  I seem to recall an article about Tate wondering why he was pulled because he felt okay.  There might have been a scare but that's about it and the Pats decided not to take chances on a knee that probably wasn't ready for NFL football.  The DE I thought was fixed when they brought in Warren.  You have Pryor with a year behind him as well.  The OL wasn't as bad as all that.  A lot had to do with no TE and 3rd WR.  All a team had to do was prepare for Moss, Welker and Maroney.  I think this has changed as Brady has more weapons.  The RB situation is one that will have to wait until next year to fix.  The RBs are old and need to be let go in the very short future. 
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Gary:

         I tend to agree...especially on your comments regarding Miami. But, regarding the Pats, far too many posters here are seeing them through rose colored glasses. It's good to be optimistic. But, it's foolish to shuck realism.

         The offense, without Welker, won't be as efficient as in years past. So, the Pats will go as far as their defense allows them to go. Cunningham, Spikes, and McCourty must produce...and the younger guys like Mayo, Meriweather, Butler, and my good buddy, Patrick Chung...must step up. Thats' a lot to ask...especially in the case of Chung.  
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Gary and All:

          Brandon Marshall has undergone an alleged "clean-up procedure" for a hip ailment. It supposedly will not affect his playing status. But, this bears monitoring: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5201480

         Here's more, on the injury status of several key Miami players: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-dolphins-injuries-0519-20100518,0,4897831.story?track=rss 
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
         Gary:      I tend to agree...especially on your comments regarding Miami. But, regarding the Pats, far too many posters here are seeing them through rose colored glasses. It's good to be optimistic. But, it's foolish to shuck realism.      The offense, without Welker, won't be as efficient as in years past. So, the Pats will go as far as their defense allows them to go. Cunningham, Spikes, and McCourty must produce...and the younger guys like Mayo, Meriweather, Butler, and my good buddy, Patrick Chung...must step up. Thats' a lot to ask...especially in the case of Chung.  
    Posted by TexasPat3


    The rose colored glasses wearing crowd has got to be pretty thin after going through last year.  That was a dose of reality.  The thing is I see it swaying the other way now.  That most are very pessimistic about the up coming season.  I haven't seen any 16-0 type stuff yet but it's early. 

    I'm going to be patient this season.  It's a lot to ask a bunch of rookies to perform like they've been there a couple of years.  We're going to see some pretty big mistakes on the field.  I also believe that the Pats will be good enough to recover from these mistakes.  It just needs to be kept to a minimum.  Warren is the old man on the defense isn't he?  Wow!

    I think the offense will do quite well.  Edelman is no Welker but he does fill in nicely and we have TEs and a 3rd WR now.  Plus, Edelman was pretty much thrown out there and did a surprisingly good job of it.  One can only imagine that he would improve and build on last year. 
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
         Gary and All:       Brandon Marshall has undergone an alleged "clean-up procedure" for a hip ailment. It supposedly will not affect his playing status. But, this bears monitoring: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5201480      Here's more, on the injury status of several key Miami players: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-dolphins-injuries-0519-20100518,0,4897831.story?track=rss  
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Who starts on the other side of Marshall?  Nobody I'm too scared of.  Those foot injuries sound nasty.  Didn't know Pennington resigned with the 'fins.  Crowder sounds like he may have some issues this year.  Nice player.  What was the name of that likable 'fin fan poster that used to be here a couple of years ago?  He would add some nice insight. 
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
    In Response to Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams : Who starts on the other side of Marshall?

    RESPONSE: Greg Cammarillo, a Wes Welker-like pest, who has killed the Patriots in the past...until suffering a Welker-like knee injury.

    Those foot injuries sound nasty.  Didn't know Pennington resigned with the 'fins.  Crowder sounds like he may have some issues this year.  Nice player.  What was the name of that likable 'fin fan poster that used to be here a couple of years ago?  He would add some nice insight. 
    Posted by garytx


    Gary and All:

         The latest word out of Miami is that Marshall had hip surgery on his other hip...not the one that was treated previously. As I said, this bears watching:
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/19/brandon-marshalls-surgery-was-to-other-hip/
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Here's more on the Brandon Marshall hip situation: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/20/brandon-marshall-situation-raises-two-big-questions/, and: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-hyde-brandon-marshall-dolphins-05220100520,0,408955.story?track=rss
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

    In Response to Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams:
         Here's an article discussing it. For the Pats...it seems to be pass-rushing ability. Yet, the author of this article disagrees: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/2010-Super-Bowl-NFL-contenders-weakest-positions
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Our weak link is time, we have a lot of new additions in key positions. Good news is with these new additions we have a very competitive team. As the season goes on the team will learn and gel. I see this year as very strong and very competitive
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Here's an article on the Jets problem child WR, Santonio Holmes. The more you read about this guy, the more it becomes clear that he is an arrogant, egotistical boor: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/jets/2010/05/santonio-holmes-says-flight-at.html
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Now that it has become known that WR Brandon Marshall may have injury concerns (hips), should Bill Parcells be criticized for a "risky" trade? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ross_tucker/05/21/mailbag/index.html
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         Is Indy's LT disappointment, Tony Ugoh, going to be switched to LG?: http://www.indystar.com/article/20100521/SPORTS03/5210358/1058/SPORTS03/Colts-Ugoh-switches-positions-wants-starting-spot

         Since the Colts reportedly want to increase size and bulk in the interior of the OL, such a move seems to make sense. 
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         For those of you who are going ga-ga over the new Patriots' TEs, here''s an interesting article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/394944-draft-day-debate-aaron-hernandez-vs-rob-gronkowski
     
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    Re: Weakest Links For Patriots, and Other Top Teams

         In the draft, the Patriots selected Floida's Jermaine Cunningham with the 53rd overall selected. Cunningham's Florida teammated, Carlos Dunlap, was taken with the very next pick. Did the Patriots make the right choice amongst these Florida players?: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/390754-should-the-new-england-patriots-have-taken-jermaine-cunningham
     

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