Welker comments

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    Re: Welker comments

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

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    I don't hope that he is. I am saying that all of the proof shows that Wes Welker crumbles under game deciding pressure in the play-offs. All of the facts show it, no matter how much you or anyone else wants to think it won't happen. That is why BB sent him packing.

     

     



    Wait, what?  I thought Mr. Kraft came out and public stated they wanted Welker, that he was their first choice.  So does this mean BB and Kraft aren't on the same page>  What are you saying here?

     

     


    Mr. Kraft is obviously a gifted politician and incredibly schrewd businessman. Mr. Kraft says what he says to satisfy the fans by pacifying them for their need to hear what they want in order to keep them happy. BB is charged with running the NE Patriots and making ALL football realted decisions. They are on the same page when it comes to keeping ALL of their fans satisfied. That doesn't mean that they say the same things all of the time. Its called keeping you fan base happy. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. If WW was really their first choice, he would stil be a PAT, plain and simple.

     

     




    Wait!  So he was grandstanding?  He went out and made this big public announcement, looking very sincere and telling us fans how much he wanted Welker to be a Patriot, that he was their first choice and it was all fake??

     

     


    Wait! YES! Its called "P-R", "Salesmanship"! That's how billionaires become billionaires! Wait, TFB12, You must have the REAL answer....PLease share it with us! So you are saying that Kraft and BB wanted WW as their first choice, but weren't willing to spend more than $5-mil to get him? Can't wait to hear why..................go ahead!

     

     
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    Re: Welker comments

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

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    I don't hope that he is. I am saying that all of the proof shows that Wes Welker crumbles under game deciding pressure in the play-offs. All of the facts show it, no matter how much you or anyone else wants to think it won't happen. That is why BB sent him packing.

     

     



    Wait, what?  I thought Mr. Kraft came out and public stated they wanted Welker, that he was their first choice.  So does this mean BB and Kraft aren't on the same page>  What are you saying here?

     

     


    Mr. Kraft is obviously a gifted politician and incredibly schrewd businessman. Mr. Kraft says what he says to satisfy the fans by pacifying them for their need to hear what they want in order to keep them happy. BB is charged with running the NE Patriots and making ALL football realted decisions. They are on the same page when it comes to keeping ALL of their fans satisfied. That doesn't mean that they say the same things all of the time. Its called keeping you fan base happy. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. If WW was really their first choice, he would stil be a PAT, plain and simple.

     

     




    Wait!  So he was grandstanding?  He went out and made this big public announcement, looking very sincere and telling us fans how much he wanted Welker to be a Patriot, that he was their first choice and it was all fake??

     

     


    Wait! YES! Its called "P-R"! Wait, TFB12, You must have the REAL answer....PLease share it with us! So you are saying that Kraft and BB wanted WW as their first choice, but weren't willing to spen $5-mil to get him? Can't wait to hear why..................

     

     




    TFB12 is a good guy, but he isn't the brightest bulb in the shed. He also thinks Brady would have been as great as he was after Week 4 in 2010 with the MVP if MOss was still here, as  MOss was lobbying for balls in his direction to boost stats for a new contract. lol

     

    He's a fantasy football based fan who started watching our team in 2007. No lie.  He admitted it the other day.

     

     


    Cliff, FINALLY! Some sanity.......Just like Moss, Wes violated the tried and true "Patriot Way". Gotta go! On top of it all, he gagged on his two biggest opportinities of his carreer. What are so many fans missing here?

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I think the warnings about Hernandez getting the money rather than Wes were based on the 3/$27 numbers thrown out there (erroneously). Once we heard what the signing numbers were, and saw the alternatives to Wes, most of the prior discussion for not retaining Wes went out the window...

    Could Wes have been resigned in addition to Amendola, and passed on Edelman, Hawkins, Jenkins and Jones?

    Everyone on this board has argued for or against Wes staying based on years/salary, except for you. You have argued Brady needed the seperation from Wes. There is credence for both, if the Wes numbers were 3/$27...but at 2/$12 the arguement for keeping Wes AND making the position stronger certainly is valid, except to you.  

     




    As per ususal, you're wrong.  As predicted, I called it right.  Welker was looking for 10 mil per. BB gave him 8 mil per, 16 mil guaranteed, which was REJECTED by Welker. This means he felt he deserved a more rich deal than the 2 years and 16 mil guaranteed.   GEt it? Pretty simple stuff.  I knew once they offered him 16 mil guaranteed like that, that was NE's best offer. Welker thought he could go to market and leverage himself as a FA. He was wrong. Also, as predicted. Part of the reason is age, part of it is due to the fact Brady throws him the ball here and that there is a chemistry there.

     

    Then, BB, whether it was partly to show Welker a lesson or not, paid Hernandez early. Hernandez is also a guy they use in the slot. Still with me? Good.

    Edelman then came into camp last year and reportedly OUTPLAYED Welker in camp. Edelman started games over Welker early in the 2012 season.   Still with me?

    Welker takes the tag of 9.5 million in 2012 thinking many teams would bid his price up to that 10 mil per year number for 3 years.

    He didn't get anywhere near it. In fact, no one came calling at all. Once Welker was given the 5 mil per for 2 years take it or leave it offer, it was clearly far less than the 8 mil per number and not what he wanted with regards to the 10 number with many teams bidding on him.

    As usual, you're wrong. The drop from NE's 8 mil to 5 mil is absolutely attributed to Hernandez getting his deal ahead of market. Kraft said it as much in the press later on for crying out loud.

    He said someting to the effect of "we can't put that much money into the slot position" under the cap.

    And yes, I do feel part of the lowered offer is also BB to tell Welker, "you aren't as big a part of our offensive gameplans liked you used to be" in the future.  Yes.  2 mil more would have kept him but they didn't even do that, so what does that tell you?

    It tells me, they are switching how they run their offense a bit, where Welker takes carries away from our RBs.  

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    It's just the way it is.  Welker can thank BB for trading for him because that production wasn't going to happen in Miami.  Welker went from making the league min in 2006 to making a lot more.  He then made a lot more than he should have in 2012, and has a nice payday to finish his career.  I think he's going to be disappointed in Denver, however.  Gomer is 2-9 outdooors in the postseason and 1 of those wins was in the rain in the SB, where he handed it off to Addai and Rhodes all game long.

    Ouch. His agent didn't do his homework.

     

     



    everything you are saying is old news. the point is with the alternatives brought on board, the team would have been a lot stronger with Wes, Amendola, Dobson, Bryce and a couple UDFA's. The team also could have easily paid Wes 2/$12, signed Amendola and paid Hernandez.

     

    The crux of the argument is: are the Pats a better team with or with out Wes. I think the correct answer is at 3/$27 they would not be a better team. But at 2/$12 they would still have the financial flexability to sign Hernandez, Amendola, still draft the WR's, etc...

    again, it appears the entire board agrees with this premise, except for you, who feels at any cost, Wes is a detriment to the team due to TB's reliance on him. you can name call all you want to support your theory, and tell everyone else they are wrong, but I think you are hard pressed to say the Pats are a better team with out Wes at 2/$12 based on the current alternatives on the team  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I think the warnings about Hernandez getting the money rather than Wes were based on the 3/$27 numbers thrown out there (erroneously). Once we heard what the signing numbers were, and saw the alternatives to Wes, most of the prior discussion for not retaining Wes went out the window...

    Could Wes have been resigned in addition to Amendola, and passed on Edelman, Hawkins, Jenkins and Jones?

    Everyone on this board has argued for or against Wes staying based on years/salary, except for you. You have argued Brady needed the seperation from Wes. There is credence for both, if the Wes numbers were 3/$27...but at 2/$10 the arguement for keeping Wes AND making the position stronger certainly is valid, except to you.  

     




    As per ususal, you're wrong.  As predicted, I called it right.  Welker was looking for 10 mil per. BB gave him 8 mil per, 16 mil guaranteed, which was REJECTED by Welker. This means he felt he deserved a more rich deal than the 2 years and 16 mil guaranteed.   GEt it? Pretty simple stuff.  I knew once they offered him 16 mil guaranteed like that, that was NE's best offer. Welker thought he could go to market and leverage himself as a FA. He was wrong. Also, as predicted. Part of the reason is age, part of it is due to the fact Brady throws him the ball here and that there is a chemistry there.

     

    Then, BB, whether it was partly to show Welker a lesson or not, paid Hernandez early. Hernandez is also a guy they use in the slot. Still with me? Good.

    Edelman then came into camp last year and reportedly OUTPLAYED Welker in camp. Edelman started games over Welker early in the 2012 season.   Still with me?

    Welker takes the tag of 9.5 million in 2012 thinking many teams would bid his price up to that 10 mil per year number for 3 years.

    He didn't get anywhere near it. In fact, no one came calling at all. Once Welker was given the 5 mil per for 2 years take it or leave it offer, it was clearly far less than the 8 mil per number and not what he wanted with regards to the 10 number with many teams bidding on him.

    As usual, you're wrong. The drop from NE's 8 mil to 5 mil is absolutely attributed to Hernandez getting his deal ahead of market. Kraft said it as much in the press later on for crying out loud.

    He said someting to the effect of "we can't put that much money into the slot position" under the cap.

    And yes, I do feel part of the lowered offer is also BB to tell Welker, "you aren't as big a part of our offensive gameplans liked you used to be" in the future.  Yes.  2 mil more would have kept him but they didn't even do that, so what does that tell you?

    It tells me, they are switching how they run their offense a bit, where Welker takes carries away from our RBs.  

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    It's just the way it is.  Welker can thank BB for trading for him because that production wasn't going to happen in Miami.  Welker went from making the league min in 2006 to making a lot more.  He then made a lot more than he should have in 2012, and has a nice payday to finish his career.  I think he's going to be disappointed in Denver, however.  Gomer is 2-9 outdooors in the postseason and 1 of those wins was in the rain in the SB, where he handed it off to Addai and Rhodes all game long.

    Ouch. His agent didn't do his homework.

     

     



    everything you are saying is old news. the point is with the alternatives brought on board, the team would have been a lot stronger with Wes, Amendola, Dobson, Bryce and a couple UDFA's. The team also could have easily paid Wes 2/$10, signed Amendola and paid Hernandez.

     

    The crux of the argument is: are the Pats a better team with or with out Wes. I think the correct answer is at 3/$27 they would not be a better team. But at 2/$10 they would still have the financial flexability to sign Hernandez, Amendola, still draft the WR's, etc...

    again, it appears the entire board agrees with this premise, except for you, who feels at any cost, Wes is a detriment to the team due to TB's reliance on him. you can name call all you want to support your theory, and tell everyone else they are wrong, but I think you are hard pressed to say the Pats are a better team with out Wes at 2/$10 based on the current alternatives on the team  

     


    Karp, the point is....Would your above analysis and opinion change had Wes caught both balls and the Pats had won at least one Superbowl as a result with Wes? And, maybe you can give a good reason as to why WW wasn't worth 5-7-million this comeing year since BB and Kraft agreed that he wasn't. That in itself tells me the PATS are better without him.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    No one is arguing Wes is not worth the money he and his agent, and many of us thought. But for the Pats team this year, with the current alternatives including Hernandez and Amendola, Wes was worth it to the Pats at 2/$12. Wes would have ultimately signed here for the same Denver deal, he even gave the Pats "last call"

    I am hoping you come back to the board in December saying how right you were, and we are not looking at Amendola and Edelman on IR, and Hern has missed his usual 3-4 games, Dobson is in his "red shirt year" and Boyce is on the PS...and ole TB is throwing TD's to the likes of Hawkins and Branch as he always does

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to RallyC's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I think the warnings about Hernandez getting the money rather than Wes were based on the 3/$27 numbers thrown out there (erroneously). Once we heard what the signing numbers were, and saw the alternatives to Wes, most of the prior discussion for not retaining Wes went out the window...

    Could Wes have been resigned in addition to Amendola, and passed on Edelman, Hawkins, Jenkins and Jones?

    Everyone on this board has argued for or against Wes staying based on years/salary, except for you. You have argued Brady needed the seperation from Wes. There is credence for both, if the Wes numbers were 3/$27...but at 2/$10 the arguement for keeping Wes AND making the position stronger certainly is valid, except to you.  

     




    As per ususal, you're wrong.  As predicted, I called it right.  Welker was looking for 10 mil per. BB gave him 8 mil per, 16 mil guaranteed, which was REJECTED by Welker. This means he felt he deserved a more rich deal than the 2 years and 16 mil guaranteed.   GEt it? Pretty simple stuff.  I knew once they offered him 16 mil guaranteed like that, that was NE's best offer. Welker thought he could go to market and leverage himself as a FA. He was wrong. Also, as predicted. Part of the reason is age, part of it is due to the fact Brady throws him the ball here and that there is a chemistry there.

     

    Then, BB, whether it was partly to show Welker a lesson or not, paid Hernandez early. Hernandez is also a guy they use in the slot. Still with me? Good.

    Edelman then came into camp last year and reportedly OUTPLAYED Welker in camp. Edelman started games over Welker early in the 2012 season.   Still with me?

    Welker takes the tag of 9.5 million in 2012 thinking many teams would bid his price up to that 10 mil per year number for 3 years.

    He didn't get anywhere near it. In fact, no one came calling at all. Once Welker was given the 5 mil per for 2 years take it or leave it offer, it was clearly far less than the 8 mil per number and not what he wanted with regards to the 10 number with many teams bidding on him.

    As usual, you're wrong. The drop from NE's 8 mil to 5 mil is absolutely attributed to Hernandez getting his deal ahead of market. Kraft said it as much in the press later on for crying out loud.

    He said someting to the effect of "we can't put that much money into the slot position" under the cap.

    And yes, I do feel part of the lowered offer is also BB to tell Welker, "you aren't as big a part of our offensive gameplans liked you used to be" in the future.  Yes.  2 mil more would have kept him but they didn't even do that, so what does that tell you?

    It tells me, they are switching how they run their offense a bit, where Welker takes carries away from our RBs.  

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    It's just the way it is.  Welker can thank BB for trading for him because that production wasn't going to happen in Miami.  Welker went from making the league min in 2006 to making a lot more.  He then made a lot more than he should have in 2012, and has a nice payday to finish his career.  I think he's going to be disappointed in Denver, however.  Gomer is 2-9 outdooors in the postseason and 1 of those wins was in the rain in the SB, where he handed it off to Addai and Rhodes all game long.

    Ouch. His agent didn't do his homework.

     

     



    everything you are saying is old news. the point is with the alternatives brought on board, the team would have been a lot stronger with Wes, Amendola, Dobson, Bryce and a couple UDFA's. The team also could have easily paid Wes 2/$10, signed Amendola and paid Hernandez.

     

    The crux of the argument is: are the Pats a better team with or with out Wes. I think the correct answer is at 3/$27 they would not be a better team. But at 2/$10 they would still have the financial flexability to sign Hernandez, Amendola, still draft the WR's, etc...

    again, it appears the entire board agrees with this premise, except for you, who feels at any cost, Wes is a detriment to the team due to TB's reliance on him. you can name call all you want to support your theory, and tell everyone else they are wrong, but I think you are hard pressed to say the Pats are a better team with out Wes at 2/$10 based on the current alternatives on the team  

     


    Karp, the point is....Would your above analysis and opinion change had Wes caught both balls and the Pats had won at least one Superbowl as a result with Wes?

     



    no, of course not.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    No one is arguing Wes is not worth the money he and his agent, and many of us thought. But for the Pats team this year, with the current alternatives including Hernandez and Amendola, Wes was worth it to the Pats at 2/$12. Wes would have ultimately signed here for the same Denver deal, he even gave the Pats "last call"

    I am hoping you come back to the board in December saying how right you were, and we are not looking at Amendola and Edelman on IR, and Hern has missed his usual 3-4 games, Dobson is in his "red shirt year" and Boyce is on the PS...and ole TB is throwing TD's to the likes of Hawkins and Branch as he always does

     


    We are all hoping for the same. BUT isn't that always the case? WW is gone, thank goodness. Now maybe Tom will go back to making his reads and throwing the ball instinctively instead of defaulting to Wes for security. Tom needed Wes to go as much as any other reason. He was too dependant on him, and unfortunately, in the end, WW let the team down.

     

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I think the warnings about Hernandez getting the money rather than Wes were based on the 3/$27 numbers thrown out there (erroneously). Once we heard what the signing numbers were, and saw the alternatives to Wes, most of the prior discussion for not retaining Wes went out the window...

    Could Wes have been resigned in addition to Amendola, and passed on Edelman, Hawkins, Jenkins and Jones?

    Everyone on this board has argued for or against Wes staying based on years/salary, except for you. You have argued Brady needed the seperation from Wes. There is credence for both, if the Wes numbers were 3/$27...but at 2/$10 the arguement for keeping Wes AND making the position stronger certainly is valid, except to you.  

     




    As per ususal, you're wrong.  As predicted, I called it right.  Welker was looking for 10 mil per. BB gave him 8 mil per, 16 mil guaranteed, which was REJECTED by Welker. This means he felt he deserved a more rich deal than the 2 years and 16 mil guaranteed.   GEt it? Pretty simple stuff.  I knew once they offered him 16 mil guaranteed like that, that was NE's best offer. Welker thought he could go to market and leverage himself as a FA. He was wrong. Also, as predicted. Part of the reason is age, part of it is due to the fact Brady throws him the ball here and that there is a chemistry there.

     

    Then, BB, whether it was partly to show Welker a lesson or not, paid Hernandez early. Hernandez is also a guy they use in the slot. Still with me? Good.

    Edelman then came into camp last year and reportedly OUTPLAYED Welker in camp. Edelman started games over Welker early in the 2012 season.   Still with me?

    Welker takes the tag of 9.5 million in 2012 thinking many teams would bid his price up to that 10 mil per year number for 3 years.

    He didn't get anywhere near it. In fact, no one came calling at all. Once Welker was given the 5 mil per for 2 years take it or leave it offer, it was clearly far less than the 8 mil per number and not what he wanted with regards to the 10 number with many teams bidding on him.

    As usual, you're wrong. The drop from NE's 8 mil to 5 mil is absolutely attributed to Hernandez getting his deal ahead of market. Kraft said it as much in the press later on for crying out loud.

    He said someting to the effect of "we can't put that much money into the slot position" under the cap.

    And yes, I do feel part of the lowered offer is also BB to tell Welker, "you aren't as big a part of our offensive gameplans liked you used to be" in the future.  Yes.  2 mil more would have kept him but they didn't even do that, so what does that tell you?

    It tells me, they are switching how they run their offense a bit, where Welker takes carries away from our RBs.  

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    It's just the way it is.  Welker can thank BB for trading for him because that production wasn't going to happen in Miami.  Welker went from making the league min in 2006 to making a lot more.  He then made a lot more than he should have in 2012, and has a nice payday to finish his career.  I think he's going to be disappointed in Denver, however.  Gomer is 2-9 outdooors in the postseason and 1 of those wins was in the rain in the SB, where he handed it off to Addai and Rhodes all game long.

    Ouch. His agent didn't do his homework.

     

     



    everything you are saying is old news. the point is with the alternatives brought on board, the team would have been a lot stronger with Wes, Amendola, Dobson, Bryce and a couple UDFA's. The team also could have easily paid Wes 2/$10, signed Amendola and paid Hernandez.

     

    The crux of the argument is: are the Pats a better team with or with out Wes. I think the correct answer is at 3/$27 they would not be a better team. But at 2/$10 they would still have the financial flexability to sign Hernandez, Amendola, still draft the WR's, etc...

    again, it appears the entire board agrees with this premise, except for you, who feels at any cost, Wes is a detriment to the team due to TB's reliance on him. you can name call all you want to support your theory, and tell everyone else they are wrong, but I think you are hard pressed to say the Pats are a better team with out Wes at 2/$10 based on the current alternatives on the team  

     



    Good. I am glad I am not a homer like most of the rest of this board is.  I think a minority opinion here is a good thing considering the commentary I read here. lol 

     

    I don't feel Brady and Welker's relationship off the field is inherently invisible with their relationship on the field. I don't want to call Welker entitled because he's earned his career, but he comes off somewhat entitled in terms of what he thinks he's owed based on past production. Add up his close friendship with Tom Brady and he may see that as leverage in his mind. It's sort of what appears happened. Brady restructures probably thinking it easily secures his buddy staying.  BB doesn't budge, actually lowers the price, which is an obvious trigger something is in the works, and Welker then made his move.

    This in turn, could also be part of an ego problem, which BB may have sniffed out.  BB also benched Welker in 2010 for making some subtle comments about feet and tying it to Rex Ryan.  It;s not like Welker hasn't pushed the boundaries before.     I've said this many, many times here: No one is above the team. Not Welkie, not Brady.  I know it and I think BB for it because it's a big reason why this team channels as one every year and wins a minimum of 12 games nowadays.  Welker's production is also incredibly bloated.  If you're going for 10 grabs against a bad D, you better catch easy passes when the chips are on the table, because BB and the team or the fans, don't care about your stats vs a crappy D.

    You can mock it, you can call it unfair, trolls can be jealous of it, etc. At the end of the day, I think the 5 mil per offer is multi facted: It's for budget reasons, it's to tell Wes "you aren't as big  part of our offense anymore", and it's possibly to get him to walk outright so it's easier to separate themselves from what could be somewhat of a problem with Brady over-using Welker during games. It's been a problem whether you, some of our fans, or even Brady himself sees it.

    You can deny it all day long, but Brady stares down Welker and/or Gronk on his 1st reads over and over and over, and he makes the play or doesn't, putting his hands back in his pouch and strutting down the field to line up another shotgun spread play, the formation Welker has to have to be effective. Go back and look at any game where Brady is under Center. Welker isn't effective and doesn't put up big numbers on the inside when Brady is under Center. It's the truth.  But, in those games, when Brady has lesser stats against good Ds, we usually win those games.  It happened a ton in 2010 after we started using more of the West Coast style plays with Brady under Center and BJGE as lead back.  Welker still got his stats, but a guy like Branch got involved as did our TEs.  It was very refreshing to see.  Crumpler also helped our run game a la Dan Graham circa 2004.

    That's my analysis and I am not changing it.  I've seen what has unfolded publicly for us to see, I've seen all the plays, all the games, looked back at films of these games and watched closely and these are my conculsions.

    Welker had 2 great looks at a SB win and in the second one, he and his buddy Brady REALLY blew it together.  It's over. It's all over.

     


    Yup, WW is gone, thank goodness. Now maybe Tom will go back to making his reads and throwing the ball instinctively instead of defaulting to Wes for security. Tom needed Wes to go as much as any other reason. He was too dependant on him, and unfortunately, in the end, WW let the team down.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

     

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    No one is arguing Wes is not worth the money he and his agent, and many of us thought. But for the Pats team this year, with the current alternatives including Hernandez and Amendola, Wes was worth it to the Pats at 2/$12. Wes would have ultimately signed here for the same Denver deal, he even gave the Pats "last call"

    I am hoping you come back to the board in December saying how right you were, and we are not looking at Amendola and Edelman on IR, and Hern has missed his usual 3-4 games, Dobson is in his "red shirt year" and Boyce is on the PS...and ole TB is throwing TD's to the likes of Hawkins and Branch as he always does

     


    We are all hoping for the same. BUT isn't that always the case? WW is gone, thank goodness. Now maybe Tom will go back to making his reads and throwing the ball instinctively instead of defaulting to Wes for security. Tom needed Wes to go as much as any other reason. He was too dependant on him, and unfortunately, in the end, WW let the team down.

     

     



    Your comments are so refreshing to read. Seriously. Please stay -and post. 95% of the board has no clue what you're even talking about at all. So, it's me and a handful of others vs a large vocal majority who are very new to the game or bandwagon fans trying to tell me (and others) Brady is the same QB he was in 2004. lol

     

    Look at this drive right here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEumzvnU9gY

    Look at the pass to Branch off to the weak side where he goes out of bounds at the 3.  That's a West Coast style play with Brady under Center. He literally sees single man coverage, knows Branch can beat it with ease on his route and he just gets out from under Center and hits him in stride.

    THAT is what we need. Picture Josh Boyce now being that with Brady in our offense.

    When was the last time Brady looked that sharp?  2010 after Moss was dealt?

    Dillon is never subbed for on the drive, they use some I Formations and runs early in the drive to show run, and then they pass from under Center. Shotgun is only used on 3rd and longs, like it should be used.

     

     


    Be careful Ciff! You're gonna get abused for seeing things like I do. I made the mistake by defending my knowledge and sharing my background, which some just tossed aside as BS. Its clear that you have more than casual exposure to the game, as have I. Good to know there are more than the typical Man-crush, couch QBs here. What you say is simply the truth. I too wish Tom was the same QB that he was then, today, but not so much that I lie to myself about it. Fact is, and look away if you must, Tom is the best "system" QB you are gonna find. But as the "system" adjusts to the defensive sophisitcation that we see today, so must he and as he's getting older without the type of athelticism necessary to hide his deficiencies. This means BB is gonna have to get back to what Tom does best, like back in the "good old days," run the ball more, let Tom sit in the pocket and make his reads, and milk a couple of more years out of the former winning style until they get their new model QB who can decode today's new defensive schemes.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    Be careful Ciff! You're gonna get abused for seeing things like I do. I made the mistake by defending my knowledge and sharing my background, which some just tossed aside as BS. Its clear that you have more than casual exposure to the game, as have I. Good to know there are more than the typical Man-crush, couch QBs here. What you say is simply the truth. I too wish Tom was the same QB that he was then, today, but not so much that I lie to myself about it. Fact is, and look away if you must, Tom is the best "system" QB you are gonna find. But as the "system" adjusts to the defensive sophisitcation that we see today, so must he and as he's getting older without the type of athelticism necessary to hide his deficiencies, the more BB is gonna have to get back to what Tom does best, like back in the "good old days," run the ball more, let Tom sit in the pocket and make his reads, and milk a couple of more years out of the former winning style until they get their new model QB.



    Rusty is answering himself with another alter ego... classic.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

     

    Be careful Ciff! You're gonna get abused for seeing things like I do. I made the mistake by defending my knowledge and sharing my background, which some just tossed aside as BS. Its clear that you have more than casual exposure to the game, as have I. Good to know there are more than the typical Man-crush, couch QBs here. What you say is simply the truth. I too wish Tom was the same QB that he was then, today, but not so much that I lie to myself about it. Fact is, and look away if you must, Tom is the best "system" QB you are gonna find. But as the "system" adjusts to the defensive sophisitcation that we see today, so must he and as he's getting older without the type of athelticism necessary to hide his deficiencies, the more BB is gonna have to get back to what Tom does best, like back in the "good old days," run the ball more, let Tom sit in the pocket and make his reads, and milk a couple of more years out of the former winning style until they get their new model QB.

     



    Rusty is answering himself with another alter ego... classic.

     

     

     


    Can someone please tell me who this Rusty cat is and why he is so notorious? I am simply a life long Patriot fan with lots of football experience who loves talking about his favorite NFL team. Give your Rusty references a break. Sounds like a cop out paranoid psychosis on your behalf to me......I guss Rusty must have known more about NFL football than you too, Wozz???

     

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:


    TFB12 is a good guy, but he isn't the brightest bulb in the shed. He also thinks Brady would have been as great as he was after Week 4 in 2010 with the MVP if MOss was still here, as  MOss was lobbying for balls in his direction to boost stats for a new contract. lol

     

    He's a fantasy football based fan who started watching our team in 2007. No lie.  He admitted it the other day.

     



    Oh Rusty, once again telling lies to fit your agenda. Troll!!

    MVP's mean nothing during the regular season if you can't win the big games.  If you don't think that the reason the Jet's beat the Patriots in the playoffs that season because the Pats didn't have a deep threat then there is no hope for you.  It's well documented, it was plain as it could possibly be during the game.  But I guess you didn't see that since you never played the game before and only started watching in 2008.  Isn't that what you said the other day..

    The Jets had nothing to worry about deep so they didn't need to spread the defense.  They played the mid to short field because the Pats didn't have Moss or any deep threat for that matter.  It was a perfect plan by Rex Ryan and BB knew there was no adjustments that could be made because they didn't have a legit deep threat to make adjustments. 

    Up to this season BB has not fixed this problem.  Hopefully this season he has and hopefully he has someone in there right now who can be that legit deep threat receiver that defenses either get burned on or have to respect in order to spread the defense.  Please learn the game.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    Can someone please tell me who this Rusty cat is and why he is so notorious? I am simply a life long Patriot fan with lots of football experience who loves talking about his favorite NFL team. Give your Rusty references a break. Sounds like a cop out paranoid psychosis on your behalf to me......I guss Rusty must have known more about NFL football than you too, Wozz??? 



    Good point Russ...

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to RallyC's comment:

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    I don't hope that he is. I am saying that all of the proof shows that Wes Welker crumbles under game deciding pressure in the play-offs. All of the facts show it, no matter how much you or anyone else wants to think it won't happen. That is why BB sent him packing.

     

     



    Wait, what?  I thought Mr. Kraft came out and public stated they wanted Welker, that he was their first choice.  So does this mean BB and Kraft aren't on the same page>  What are you saying here?

     

     


    Mr. Kraft is obviously a gifted politician and incredibly schrewd businessman. Mr. Kraft says what he says to satisfy the fans by pacifying them for their need to hear what they want in order to keep them happy. BB is charged with running the NE Patriots and making ALL football realted decisions. They are on the same page when it comes to keeping ALL of their fans satisfied. That doesn't mean that they say the same things all of the time. Its called keeping you fan base happy. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. If WW was really their first choice, he would stil be a PAT, plain and simple.

     

     




    Wait!  So he was grandstanding?  He went out and made this big public announcement, looking very sincere and telling us fans how much he wanted Welker to be a Patriot, that he was their first choice and it was all fake??

     

     


    Wait! YES! Its called "P-R", "Salesmanship"! That's how billionaires become billionaires! Wait, TFB12, You must have the REAL answer....PLease share it with us! So you are saying that Kraft and BB wanted WW as their first choice, but weren't willing to spend more than $5-mil to get him? Can't wait to hear why..................go ahead!

     




    So wait a minute, let me get this right.... Kraft came out and lied to us fans, lied to all the reporters, lied to everyone because he is a billionaire?  Because he is a salesman?  He really didn't want Welker on the team after making such a huge public spectacle saying he did?  Are you sure you really want to go there?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to RallyC's comment:

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    I think the warnings about Hernandez getting the money rather than Wes were based on the 3/$27 numbers thrown out there (erroneously). Once we heard what the signing numbers were, and saw the alternatives to Wes, most of the prior discussion for not retaining Wes went out the window...

    Could Wes have been resigned in addition to Amendola, and passed on Edelman, Hawkins, Jenkins and Jones?

    Everyone on this board has argued for or against Wes staying based on years/salary, except for you. You have argued Brady needed the seperation from Wes. There is credence for both, if the Wes numbers were 3/$27...but at 2/$10 the arguement for keeping Wes AND making the position stronger certainly is valid, except to you.  

     




    As per ususal, you're wrong.  As predicted, I called it right.  Welker was looking for 10 mil per. BB gave him 8 mil per, 16 mil guaranteed, which was REJECTED by Welker. This means he felt he deserved a more rich deal than the 2 years and 16 mil guaranteed.   GEt it? Pretty simple stuff.  I knew once they offered him 16 mil guaranteed like that, that was NE's best offer. Welker thought he could go to market and leverage himself as a FA. He was wrong. Also, as predicted. Part of the reason is age, part of it is due to the fact Brady throws him the ball here and that there is a chemistry there.

     

    Then, BB, whether it was partly to show Welker a lesson or not, paid Hernandez early. Hernandez is also a guy they use in the slot. Still with me? Good.

    Edelman then came into camp last year and reportedly OUTPLAYED Welker in camp. Edelman started games over Welker early in the 2012 season.   Still with me?

    Welker takes the tag of 9.5 million in 2012 thinking many teams would bid his price up to that 10 mil per year number for 3 years.

    He didn't get anywhere near it. In fact, no one came calling at all. Once Welker was given the 5 mil per for 2 years take it or leave it offer, it was clearly far less than the 8 mil per number and not what he wanted with regards to the 10 number with many teams bidding on him.

    As usual, you're wrong. The drop from NE's 8 mil to 5 mil is absolutely attributed to Hernandez getting his deal ahead of market. Kraft said it as much in the press later on for crying out loud.

    He said someting to the effect of "we can't put that much money into the slot position" under the cap.

    And yes, I do feel part of the lowered offer is also BB to tell Welker, "you aren't as big a part of our offensive gameplans liked you used to be" in the future.  Yes.  2 mil more would have kept him but they didn't even do that, so what does that tell you?

    It tells me, they are switching how they run their offense a bit, where Welker takes carries away from our RBs.  

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    It's just the way it is.  Welker can thank BB for trading for him because that production wasn't going to happen in Miami.  Welker went from making the league min in 2006 to making a lot more.  He then made a lot more than he should have in 2012, and has a nice payday to finish his career.  I think he's going to be disappointed in Denver, however.  Gomer is 2-9 outdooors in the postseason and 1 of those wins was in the rain in the SB, where he handed it off to Addai and Rhodes all game long.

    Ouch. His agent didn't do his homework.

     

     



    everything you are saying is old news. the point is with the alternatives brought on board, the team would have been a lot stronger with Wes, Amendola, Dobson, Bryce and a couple UDFA's. The team also could have easily paid Wes 2/$10, signed Amendola and paid Hernandez.

     

    The crux of the argument is: are the Pats a better team with or with out Wes. I think the correct answer is at 3/$27 they would not be a better team. But at 2/$10 they would still have the financial flexability to sign Hernandez, Amendola, still draft the WR's, etc...

    again, it appears the entire board agrees with this premise, except for you, who feels at any cost, Wes is a detriment to the team due to TB's reliance on him. you can name call all you want to support your theory, and tell everyone else they are wrong, but I think you are hard pressed to say the Pats are a better team with out Wes at 2/$10 based on the current alternatives on the team  

     



    Good. I am glad I am not a homer like most of the rest of this board is.  I think a minority opinion here is a good thing considering the commentary I read here. lol 

     

    I don't feel Brady and Welker's relationship off the field is inherently invisible with their relationship on the field. I don't want to call Welker entitled because he's earned his career, but he comes off somewhat entitled in terms of what he thinks he's owed based on past production. Add up his close friendship with Tom Brady and he may see that as leverage in his mind. It's sort of what appears happened. Brady restructures probably thinking it easily secures his buddy staying.  BB doesn't budge, actually lowers the price, which is an obvious trigger something is in the works, and Welker then made his move.

    This in turn, could also be part of an ego problem, which BB may have sniffed out.  BB also benched Welker in 2010 for making some subtle comments about feet and tying it to Rex Ryan.  It;s not like Welker hasn't pushed the boundaries before.     I've said this many, many times here: No one is above the team. Not Welkie, not Brady.  I know it and I think BB for it because it's a big reason why this team channels as one every year and wins a minimum of 12 games nowadays.  Welker's production is also incredibly bloated.  If you're going for 10 grabs against a bad D, you better catch easy passes when the chips are on the table, because BB and the team or the fans, don't care about your stats vs a crappy D.

    You can mock it, you can call it unfair, trolls can be jealous of it, etc. At the end of the day, I think the 5 mil per offer is multi facted: It's for budget reasons, it's to tell Wes "you aren't as big  part of our offense anymore", and it's possibly to get him to walk outright so it's easier to separate themselves from what could be somewhat of a problem with Brady over-using Welker during games. It's been a problem whether you, some of our fans, or even Brady himself sees it.

    You can deny it all day long, but Brady stares down Welker and/or Gronk on his 1st reads over and over and over, and he makes the play or doesn't, putting his hands back in his pouch and strutting down the field to line up another shotgun spread play, the formation Welker has to have to be effective. Go back and look at any game where Brady is under Center. Welker isn't effective and doesn't put up big numbers on the inside when Brady is under Center. It's the truth.  But, in those games, when Brady has lesser stats against good Ds, we usually win those games.  It happened a ton in 2010 after we started using more of the West Coast style plays with Brady under Center and BJGE as lead back.  Welker still got his stats, but a guy like Branch got involved as did our TEs.  It was very refreshing to see.  Crumpler also helped our run game a la Dan Graham circa 2004.

    That's my analysis and I am not changing it.  I've seen what has unfolded publicly for us to see, I've seen all the plays, all the games, looked back at films of these games and watched closely and these are my conculsions.

    Welker had 2 great looks at a SB win and in the second one, he and his buddy Brady REALLY blew it together.  It's over. It's all over.

     

     


    Yup, WW is gone, thank goodness. Now maybe Tom will go back to making his reads and throwing the ball instinctively instead of defaulting to Wes for security. Tom needed Wes to go as much as any other reason. He was too dependant on him, and unfortunately, in the end, WW let the team down.

     



    some one has to be open to pass to, correct? seems BB wasnt too happy with last years collection either. they are all gone, except for Edelman. maybe TB wasnt "defaulting to Wes"...maybe no one was able to seperate and get open, leaving Wes as the only viable option?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    In response to CliffordWasHere's comment:

     

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    Bottom line is Welker has a lot of miles on him, is getting slower, older, has 2 straight years of increased drops and isn't worth the money he thought. As unfair as that is to him in terms of what he's earned as a pro, it's the harsh truth of how players are viewed as FAs over the age of 30.

    No one is arguing Wes is not worth the money he and his agent, and many of us thought. But for the Pats team this year, with the current alternatives including Hernandez and Amendola, Wes was worth it to the Pats at 2/$12. Wes would have ultimately signed here for the same Denver deal, he even gave the Pats "last call"

    I am hoping you come back to the board in December saying how right you were, and we are not looking at Amendola and Edelman on IR, and Hern has missed his usual 3-4 games, Dobson is in his "red shirt year" and Boyce is on the PS...and ole TB is throwing TD's to the likes of Hawkins and Branch as he always does

     


    We are all hoping for the same. BUT isn't that always the case? WW is gone, thank goodness. Now maybe Tom will go back to making his reads and throwing the ball instinctively instead of defaulting to Wes for security. Tom needed Wes to go as much as any other reason. He was too dependant on him, and unfortunately, in the end, WW let the team down.

     

     



    Your comments are so refreshing to read. Seriously. Please stay -and post. 95% of the board has no clue what you're even talking about at all. So, it's me and a handful of others vs a large vocal majority who are very new to the game or bandwagon fans trying to tell me (and others) Brady is the same QB he was in 2004. lol

     

    Look at this drive right here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEumzvnU9gY

    Look at the pass to Branch off to the weak side where he goes out of bounds at the 3.  That's a West Coast style play with Brady under Center. He literally sees single man coverage, knows Branch can beat it with ease on his route and he just gets out from under Center and hits him in stride.

    THAT is what we need. Picture Josh Boyce now being that with Brady in our offense.

    When was the last time Brady looked that sharp?  2010 after Moss was dealt?

    Dillon is never subbed for on the drive, they use some I Formations and runs early in the drive to show run, and then they pass from under Center. Shotgun is only used on 3rd and longs, like it should be used.

     

     


    Be careful Ciff! You're gonna get abused for seeing things like I do. I made the mistake by defending my knowledge and sharing my background, which some just tossed aside as BS. Its clear that you have more than casual exposure to the game, as have I. Good to know there are more than the typical Man-crush, couch QBs here. What you say is simply the truth. I too wish Tom was the same QB that he was then, today, but not so much that I lie to myself about it. Fact is, and look away if you must, Tom is the best "system" QB you are gonna find. But as the "system" adjusts to the defensive sophisitcation that we see today, so must he and as he's getting older without the type of athelticism necessary to hide his deficiencies, the more BB is gonna have to get back to what Tom does best, like back in the "good old days," run the ball more, let Tom sit in the pocket and make his reads, and milk a couple of more years out of the former winning style until they get their new model QB.

     

     



    You may or may not know who I am, but I've been banned here many times for sticking to my guns (and being absolutely correct a lot more often than not), so I am well aware of what it means to be right and be in the minority of a host of homer Brady Ballwasher fanboys here.

     

    Sometimes some of our fans don't want to hear the truth. My only question is how Brady runs this offense here on out, because the days of running in to blame our D after a loss with 2 Brady INTs and a rash of 3 and outs for big chunks of the game, can't go on now.

    This D is young, loaded and has a wealth of exprience to draw from. Love the additions of Adrian Wilson, the experienced Tommy Kelly and I am intrigued with what the  reports with Armstead.  I also like how Dennard has 1 year under his belt with Talib in here for a  full camp.

    On offense, I cannot wait to watch the preseason games to see how they run plays with these new WRs.

     

     


    No doubt! It is certainly gonna be interesting. When Tom was younger, he also had a very strong run support game. We won Superbowls. Now that we are in the era of the 3, 5, 7 step drop, read, read, read, throw scheme, our offense needs receivers who can avoid contact at the line with the brains to understand "option route trees" to be flexible on every passing play. Our evolving running game should prove key to our success too, as always. Hopefully, that will make a difference. Otherwise, we may be headed to another 14-2, 13-3, go to the play-offs and get beat by the faster defense scenario again. I think we have the personnel that can change that trend. I hope!

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker comments

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

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    I don't hope that he is. I am saying that all of the proof shows that Wes Welker crumbles under game deciding pressure in the play-offs. All of the facts show it, no matter how much you or anyone else wants to think it won't happen. That is why BB sent him packing.

     

     



    Wait, what?  I thought Mr. Kraft came out and public stated they wanted Welker, that he was their first choice.  So does this mean BB and Kraft aren't on the same page>  What are you saying here?

     

     


    Mr. Kraft is obviously a gifted politician and incredibly schrewd businessman. Mr. Kraft says what he says to satisfy the fans by pacifying them for their need to hear what they want in order to keep them happy. BB is charged with running the NE Patriots and making ALL football realted decisions. They are on the same page when it comes to keeping ALL of their fans satisfied. That doesn't mean that they say the same things all of the time. Its called keeping you fan base happy. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. If WW was really their first choice, he would stil be a PAT, plain and simple.

     

     




    Wait!  So he was grandstanding?  He went out and made this big public announcement, looking very sincere and telling us fans how much he wanted Welker to be a Patriot, that he was their first choice and it was all fake??

     

     


    Wait! YES! Its called "P-R", "Salesmanship"! That's how billionaires become billionaires! Wait, TFB12, You must have the REAL answer....PLease share it with us! So you are saying that Kraft and BB wanted WW as their first choice, but weren't willing to spend more than $5-mil to get him? Can't wait to hear why..................go ahead!

     

     




    So wait a minute, let me get this right.... Kraft came out and lied to us fans, lied to all the reporters, lied to everyone because he is a billionaire?  Because he is a salesman?  He really didn't want Welker on the team after making such a huge public spectacle saying he did?  Are you sure you really want to go there?

     

     


    Look man, I already went there. This is BIG BUSINESS. What don't you get about what I'm saying? Kraft didn't lie, he simply told everybody the most politically correct line he could without causing you Wes lovers to be so upset that you reject the brand...ya know, stop buying tickets, buying shirts, watching the games. Ever hear of DAMAGE CONTROL? You should be paying me for this business course TB!

     

     
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