Welker situation

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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : "a more diverse set of recivers" Do you know how dumb you're going to sound if Brady and this offense does not win a SB this year?  This statement right here above just puts Brady under more pressure to have to win it all next year. He has to.  All you're doing it making it worse pretending he doesn't have good enough weapons and pretending he should be passing 60 times a game instead of 40.  You have ZERO feel for the NFL. Zero. You sound like such a twit.  95% of NFL fans would love to have Brady and these weapons, yet you act like he's being hogtied with the talent here.  You're a walking science exhibit. Flat out unbelievable that you live outside of the Boston area and walk around with that opinion on the Pats. You must have ZERO friends who aren't Pats fans.  ZERO.  Every friend and co-worker of mine would look at me like a spoiled fan to the nth degree if I made the statements you just made.   I am humbled at what Brady has around him because it's as good as the top 1% of a talent base in the NFL. Dear Prolate: 95% of NFL fans are JEALOUS of Brady and the weapons he has.  Get a clue, please. Signed, Educated and Well Traveled Pats Fans
    Posted by BassFishing



    So Brady has the best set of weapons in the NFL, but Welker (his most used weapon) disappears in big games and really isn't that good?

    Yep, that's Rusty logic for you. 

    No wonder you resort to ad hominems so often.   It's all you got.

    I doubt there's a more regressed forty year old in the entire world.





     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from AyyyBoston. Show AyyyBoston's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : My issues with Mankins is that he is overrated.  He's our least disciplined OL and has been for 7 years.    We aren't a run based team in a traditional sense and that's where his strength is (roadgrading blocking), so the furstration with his salary and what he delivers is real.  I don't care if he drove a pick up truck across country and has a ranch, or looks tough. I go by what I see. It wasn't fair market value. The Saints panicked and overpaid Evans.  Nicks was just cut and he signed a bloated deal with TB because they had a ton of money to spend. One team's bloated signing or one team's desperation is not the market.  You need to see a pattern before a market is set, and I would agree that has now happened, but it's in part because we caved to MAnkins.  I would tagged and traded Mankins. He played that victim role and now he's not as good as he claims. Light, Waters, Connolly and even some degree, Solder performed better than Mankins did in 2011.  Now, we're developing Cannon to either play Tackle or Guard and will probably go in that direction in the draft yet again to keep the pipeline rolling. I see the Mankins situation and this one as similar situations.  Each is highly valued by the organization, and each needed to be given major raises, which in turn throws the formula completely out of whack. Most of the money is invested in offense.  Everyone keeps complaining about the D, but BB is spending it on offense more so than D.  Ok, fine, but where does that end and where does the "problem" on offense end? What people don't want to admit is that Moss and Welker were so good or now Gronk/Hern and Welker are so good, they're binkies for Brady.  If you peel back the layers, Brady's binky is now mainly Welker with a good dose of Gronk and some Hern. Before it was Moss and Welker.  Brady and Welker just went on vacation together and spend every waking hour practiving together in the offseason.  I'd prefer Brady practicing with Ochocinco, Lloyd and the newer players so the rapport he ended up developing with Branch and then Welker, will be there. I am tired of seeing them dominate crappy competition and then NOT see the Brady/Welker connection work in the postseason.  Again, I love both players, what they do, the passion, etc, and would tell them that to their face right now.  But, you have to look to the future.  You can't just pretend a top heavy roster on offense is what works, when we have seen that it doesn't. And you can't expect every single player 1-6 on the WR depth chart to be a future HOFer either. Brady will be 35 in Sept. The last thing I want is him playing at 35 and 36 and throwing to a fading slot WR at age 32 and 33 at 9 million per season as some of our fanbase incorrectly bash this ascending, young D in an offensive era.  It makes our offense predictable, limits our run game, momentum, attitude, game management, ball control, etc.  Look no further than SB 46 as a major warning of how to adjust these future Pats teams on offense.  Gronk being hurt, proves we need to balance it out more so. Balance the offense out.  Get a lead RB in here.  I'd rather pay a lead RB (even though I don't want to) than pay a slot WR.  In short, that's the point. Now, if Welker was more reasonable at say 7.5 mil over 3 years (team option at 9 million in 2014), then that's a different story.  But, he's holding out for years and around 9 million per, which I am not in favor of at all.
    Posted by BassFishing



    I agree with you in terms of the lead RB idea. I love Welker and the hustle he brings to the team and his excellent seasons here. However, I think 9 million is too much for a guy of his age. If you gave me the option of paying 8-9 million for a stud RB or stud slot WR, I'm taking the RB because we need BALANCE. No, I'm not saying 50-50 (we will always be past first with Brady as QB), but more balance than we have. I'll take a guy who you can depend on to force defenses to gameplan for him (as part of the running game) over another receiving weapon on our loaded offense. I just think if we decided to pay a guy like Forte over Welker, then guys like Hernandez, Edelman, and Gonzalez could do what Wes does (althought maybe not as good, but good enough).
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : So Brady has the best set of weapons in the NFL, but Welker (his most used weapon) disappears in big games and really isn't that good? Yep, that's Rusty logic for you.  No wonder you resort to ad hominems so often.   It's all you got. I doubt there's a more regressed forty year old in the entire world.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    I have no idea what your point is other than seeing this as a complete backpedal.

    You clearly have no friends who aren't Pats fans.  That, we just learned based on your response.  95% of NFL fans point to brady and say "he's great and he has so many great weapons". You'd know this if you had friends and removed yourself from your little bubble as a newer pink hat kind of fan.

    I'm also nowhere near 40 years old, middle aged man.

    Yes, Brady taregting Welker makes our offense predictable.  It has nothing to do with them being good or not good. Not what I said, Mr. Sneaky.



     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : I agree with you in terms of the lead RB idea. I love Welker and the hustle he brings to the team and his excellent seasons here. However, I think 9 million is too much for a guy of his age. If you gave me the option of paying 8-9 million for a stud RB or stud slot WR, I'm taking the RB because we need BALANCE. No, I'm not saying 50-50 (we will always be past first with Brady as QB), but more balance than we have. I'll take a guy who you can depend on to force defenses to gameplan for him (as part of the running game) over another receiving weapon on our loaded offense. I just think if we decided to pay a guy like Forte over Welker, then guys like Hernandez, Edelman, and Gonzalez could do what Wes does (althought maybe not as good, but good enough).
    Posted by AyyyBoston



    Ask yourself this:

    Considering BB will have to proactively address Gronk and Hernandez pretty much AFTER next season to pay them BEFORE they hit the market, would you rather pay them and maybe trade for a Jonathan Stewart, and to pay him as well, (while you have leverage on him) or overpay Wes Welker?

    My answer is the former. Give me a legit lead back and Gronk and Hern locked up at solid deals over shooting yourself in the foot with Welker due to loyalty concepts.  Love the guy, nothing personal, but if he wants silly money and wants 2+ years and silly money, I say let him walk after 2012 or try to trade him, calling his bluff off a sign and trade arrangmenet a la Cassel in 2009.

    I would deal for Stewart, hope Welker takes the tag for 1 year and then wish him the best as option 1.  Or, you could deal Welker now for Forte, for example, lock down Forte for the next 5 years in his prime to help Brady and eventually bridge the gap for Mallett to boot.

    Just because we all love Welker as a person/player, etc, it doesn't mean we shouldn't look at other options including the future. I don't know. Sometimes I think Brady calls a lot more of these shots than he lets on or what Kraft and BB let on.

    I thought this might have been over with the Moss thing, but we'll see how it shakes out.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from AyyyBoston. Show AyyyBoston's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : Ask yourself this: Considering BB will have to proactively address Gronk and Hernandez pretty much AFTER next season to pay them BEFORE they hit the market, would you rather pay them and maybe trade for a Jonathan Stewart, and to pay him as well, (while you have leverage on him) or overpay Wes Welker? My answer is the former. Give me a legit lead back and Gronk and Hern locked up at solid deals over shooting yourself in the foot with Welker due to loyalty concepts.  Love the guy, nothing personal, but if he wants silly money and wants 2+ years and silly money, I say let him walk after 2012 or try to trade him, calling his bluff off a sign and trade arrangmenet a la Cassel in 2009. I would deal for Stewart, hope Welker takes the tag for 1 year and then wish him the best as option 1.  Or, you could deal Welker now for Forte, for example, lock down Forte for the next 5 years in his prime to help Brady and eventually bridge the gap for Mallett to boot. Just because we all love Welker as a person/player, etc, it doesn't mean we shouldn't look at other options including the future. I don't know. Sometimes I think Brady calls a lot more of these shots than he lets on or what Kraft and BB let on. I thought this might have been over with the Moss thing, but we'll see how it shakes out.
    Posted by BassFishing


    That's pretty much my thinking. I just want to see us get a running game that defenses have to respect. This, combined with the addition of Lloyd and maybe a rookie WR that can work the outside, will make our offense much less predictable.

    Of course, I'm not the Pats GM Smile
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    I've got to admit I was stunned to hear that he turned down two years 16 million from the team, because quite frankly you can't pay him more than that. I love the guy, but with his price demands I think you've got to explore your options.
     
    I imagine that the guy they supposedly have shown interest in from St.Lois would catch 80 plus balls here and cost half as much. If they go the draft route, at least you have two tight ends that can run routes over the middle/slot while a young guy develops.

    If we were to trade him I'm not sure we'd get all that much for him - 31 year old possession receivers aren't going to be bringing first round picks...especially when they know you may need to trade him. Personally I think they may be best served to just keep him for one more year under the franchise number and revisit it again next year, it may be a win win for both parties.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from vertigho. Show vertigho's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : I have no idea what your point is other than seeing this as a complete backpedal. You clearly have no friends who aren't Pats fans.  That, we just learned based on your response.  95% of NFL fans point to brady and say "he's great and he has so many great weapons". You'd know this if you had friends and removed yourself from your little bubble as a newer pink hat kind of fan. I'm also nowhere near 40 years old, middle aged man. Yes, Brady taregting Welker makes our offense predictable.  It has nothing to do with them being good or not good. Not what I said, Mr. Sneaky.
    Posted by BassFishing


    It's not a backpedal in any way, shape, or form.

    You have stated that Welker isn't worth a big contract, and that's partially because he disappears in big games. 

    You also stated, above in this thread, that if Welker is re-signed, Brady will have the best set of receivers in the NFL, and then digressed into hostile remarks towards Prolate and Tom Brady.

    Is it that tough to understand why Prolate would question what you said, given that your comments appear to be contradictory. 

    There was no backpedal, nor is Prolate trying to mince words. He is calling you on what you said, given that it appears to contradict previous statements. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : TFB, I dont agree because the amount of money Wes is looking for guaranteed cannot fit into the Pats cap plan if the guaranteed amount is spread over 3 years. To give Wes fair market value it needs to be structured over a 5 year deal, but do you want to be paying Wes in his 34, 35 and 36 year old seasons 
    Posted by rkarp


    A 5 yr deal isn't going to work, Wes knows that and the Pats know that.  Wes needs to settle for a 3 yr deal and the Patriots need to make the money work.  As I mentioned, Wes outplayed his contract, time for the Pats to step up and take good care of him.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In response to "Re: Welker situation":
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : A 5 yr deal isn't going to work, Wes knows that and the Pats know that.  Wes needs to settle for a 3 yr deal and the Patriots need to make the money work.  As I mentioned, Wes outplayed his contract, time for the Pats to step up and take good care of him. Posted by TFB12
    Pats are taking care of him. franchising him this year and next nets Wes the $20M he wanted guaranteed. Wes can then go year to year depending on what he and the Pats or any other team can agree on. Over the course of 3 years if he continues to produce, he nets anywhere from $25-32M. Downside for Wes is year to year he could get hurt and there is no guarantee. Downside for the Pats is the high cap hit.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In response to "Re: Welker situation":
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : Ask yourself this: Considering BB will have to proactively address Gronk and Hernandez pretty much AFTER next season to pay them BEFORE they hit the market, would you rather pay them and maybe trade for a Jonathan Stewart, and to pay him as well, (while you have leverage on him) or overpay Wes Welker? My answer is the former. Give me a legit lead back and Gronk and Hern locked up at solid deals over shooting yourself in the foot with Welker due to loyalty concepts.  Love the guy, nothing personal, but if he wants silly money and wants 2+ years and silly money, I say let him walk after 2012 or try to trade him, calling his bluff off a sign and trade arrangmenet a la Cassel in 2009. I would deal for Stewart, hope Welker takes the tag for 1 year and then wish him the best as option 1.  Or, you could deal Welker now for Forte, for example, lock down Forte for the next 5 years in his prime to help Brady and eventually bridge the gap for Mallett to boot. Just because we all love Welker as a person/player, etc, it doesn't mean we shouldn't look at other options including the future. I don't know. Sometimes I think Brady calls a lot more of these shots than he lets on or what Kraft and BB let on. I thought this might have been over with the Moss thing, but we'll see how it shakes out. Posted by BassFishing
    Rusty, Forte seems to fly in the face of all your previous positions. Paying one guy a lot of money in a non premium position, who tends to be injury prone. On a team like the Pats that prefer a 3-4 back rotation over the course of the season depending on the opponent. I also have much higher opinion of the Ridley/Vareen tandem than you seem to. I know you agree running the ball is a team mindset. From the start of camp, the tone has to be set, and the OL has to be in a running physical way. Light and Koppen were more pass protection OL. Mankins, Connelly, Vollmer, Cannon better with the run game. Also watch Fiametta. Arguably the best blocking FB last year before injury. I am of the opinion that the Pats have RB/FB currently on the team, as well as OL currently on the team that will allow the Pats to be a successful run game team.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    It does a little bit, but Brady refused to lean on BJGE when healthy or in the SB, so I want a guy in here who will do what Welker does, but do it from the RB position.

    In other words, I'd prefer to run the ball for 4 yards and not risk an incompletion, an INT or the clock stopping when targeting Welker.  I don't want our RB subbed just to be subbed for.

    Our offense would be so deadly if you just used a Forte type as a lead back on every down on almost every series.  You would completely eliminiate and offset the D's ability to dictate in defending the pass (or the run). 

    This goes back to my issues with our flawed offensive approach, in close games in particular, and what Welker actualy represents to Brady.  Brady relies on Welker too much.

    I don't feel comfortable upping his salary for more than 2 years (unless with a team option and less than 9 million per).

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : It's not a backpedal in any way, shape, or form. You have stated that Welker isn't worth a big contract, and that's partially because he disappears in big games.  You also stated, above in this thread, that if Welker is re-signed, Brady will have the best set of receivers in the NFL, and then digressed into hostile remarks towards Prolate and Tom Brady. Is it that tough to understand why Prolate would question what you said, given that your comments appear to be contradictory.  There was no backpedal, nor is Prolate trying to mince words. He is calling you on what you said, given that it appears to contradict previous statements. 
    Posted by vertigho



    NEWSFLASH: Even if Welker isn't resigned, Brady still has arguably the best set of passing options in the game.

    This is the part you and your arrogant defense team aren't getting.

    Here are Brady's options without Welker, professor:

    1. Brandon Lloyd (system)
    2. Deion Branch (system)
    3. Donte Stallworth (system)
    4. Chad Ochocinco (system)
    5. Julian Edelman (system)
    6. Anthony Gonzalez

    7. Rob Gronkowski (system)
    8. Aaron Hernandez (system)
    9. Daniel Fells (system)

    Get off the idea that football is ONLY passing. Wake up.  BB just signed a better blocking H back in Fells and two FBs in Fiametta and Larsen. Do the math.

    Aaron Hernandez is essentially a slot WR, just a bigger one.

    All the leverage is leaving Welker's side of the table and it's about time BB consider a more traditonal power base.  Even without the great Welker here, the balance and weaponry is SICK. SICK.

    And this doesn't count the draft either. 

    So, yes, Prolate is either backpedaling in Brady's underpants or you and he still don't get it.   It's amazing how annoying you are. Stay out of the big boy conversations if you have nothing interesting to counter with, new fan.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    Our lead back was hurt from Week 6 on after running roughshod on the Raiders your Jets.   So, any stat you bring up is irrelevant based on his 2011 season.  What is relevant is how he was used when healthy and the fact NE never lost a game in 2010 or 2011 when he was used as the feature back in this offense.

    They then didn't use him until the playoffs where he ran amuck for 8 carries on 50 yards against Baltimore by halftime, and then was benched.

    He was healthy and not used properly in the SB.  Period.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : While I agree with your assesment of Welker and his financial predicament, we part ways on your Forte observation. I love his skill set and would love to see him with the Pats, but at what cost? I assume the Bears would look for compensation of high draft picks, and the Pats still would need to sign Forte. I would assume he has set a value for himself in the $20-$30M range. He has been injury prone, and the Pats have spent high draft choices on the position. We have also been back and forth on Mankins, and I believe that he signed for fair market value for a top 3 NFL G, which he had been up until this past year. Question is was that due to injury or decline?
    Posted by rkarp

    A chicago link on bleacherreports says they think Forte is worth 2 second round picks. Could the Pats trade Welker to the Bears and get Forte?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    In Response to Re: Welker situation : A chicago link on bleacherreports says they think Forte is worth 2 second round picks. Could the Pats trade Welker to the Bears and get Forte?
    Posted by TheFantasyBaron


    I guess the question is would the Bears rather pay Forte $7M this year or Wes $9M this year? Would the Pats want to give up 2 #2's for Forte, when they used a #2 and #3 last year for the same position?

    My assumption is that both teams have no interest
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hulk. Show hulk's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    I did present the actual facts.  I did not lay them out because I though you had a minimum of how the NFL works both on draft choices and contracts. My incorrect assumption. You are the one who knew little about how things work in NFL compensation.  You might be one of those fantasy football guys who want to sign everything and anything witout the requisite knowledge to back it up I can see why you don't post much with you level of knowledge in that one person with the facts can competely destroy your presumptions
    Posted by provpats

    Nice grammer throughout.  I don't see why you feel you have to attack another Patriots fan.  I put the question out there as a discussion.  The reason why I asked it because I wasnt sure if/when Matt Light retires, how that will affect the cap space.  There was more to my question, but you want to be negative towards other fans because they don't know as much as you proclaim to know.  
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    Then why not ask the question outright about Light? If matt light retires that frees up about $5 M in cap space.  Enough to sign a fantasy league player.  See that is easy.

    and it was you who came back snarkily  after you showed how little you knew about the cost of signing draft picks but want to sign a 34 yo safety

     And by the way it is spelling, not my grammar you want to criticize, which is always the final refuge of the weak-minded on the internet. 



    here is the ultimate cap reference for the pats


    http://patscap.com/

     
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