Welker situation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from hulk. Show hulk's posts

    Welker situation

    According to James Walker of ESPN, the Patriots have @ $9.4 mil in cap space as of April 2nd.  With this, shouldn't the Patriots go ahead and sign Welker to a 3 year deal, and let it be a heavy pay for this year.  With over $9 mil left, that gives the Patriots the opportunity to pay Welker and still have money left to sign at least one veteran Safety or DE, i.e. Yermiah Bell or Andre Carter (if healthy).  I know Welker is just a slot receiver, but Brady and this offense need him as much as he needs us. Plus with the addition of Lloyd, it makes him that much more dangerous. Just a thought...



     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    and you plan to pay for the draft choices and in-season acquisitions how?

    The big money will be the signing bonus, which will be apportioned pre rata
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hulk. Show hulk's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    Draft choices and mid season aquistions are not going to cost anywhere near that much.  What I am trying to get across is if you pay him 12 this year, then 8 for the following two seasons.  That makes it a 3 year 28 mil salary.  Like I said it is just a thought.  

    By the way provpats, how much do you think teams pay for draft picks? 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]Draft choices and mid season aquistions are not going to cost anywhere near that much.  What I am trying to get across is if you pay him 12 this year, then 8 for the following two seasons.  That makes it a 3 year 28 mil salary.  Like I said it is just a thought.   By the way provpats, how much do you think teams pay for draft picks? 
    Posted by hulk[/QUOTE]

    If the Pats make all of their draft picks I believe the number will be between $5.7 and $6M.
    Welker will not accept $28M in "salary", as salary is not guaranteed. Look for some compromise between Wes and the Pats at approx $20M in bonus spread out over 4-5 years, with an additional $20m in "salary" that will be backloaded(and most likely unattainable)
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    to echo the above it will be around $5-6M for draft picks; they usually like to save 2M for the in season stuff.  So that leaves at most $2M to sign your free agents

    Karp hit the numbers right on the money; it will be the bonus that is the primary aspect as that is guranteed, unless you want tho guarantee the three years of salary which no one does

    I suggest you take your 65 posts and learn something about the NFL compensation practices.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from thehub. Show thehub's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    I suggest you take your 65 posts and learn something about the NFL compensation practices.
    Posted by provpats[/QUOTE]

    Easy tough guy. The OP is trying talk football and you shxit down his throat. Another tough guy with a keyboard.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hulk. Show hulk's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]to echo the above it will be around $5-6M for draft picks; they usually like to save 2M for the in season stuff.  So that leaves at most $2M to sign your free agents Karp hit the numbers right on the money; it will be the bonus that is the primary aspect as that is guranteed, unless you want tho guarantee the three years of salary which no one does I suggest you take your 65 posts and learn something about the NFL compensation practices.
    Posted by provpats[/QUOTE]
    You need to calm down.  It's a discussion, not time to act like a little brat.  I brought it up for a discussion.  I like how you jump on someone else's info.  That's why I brought this up.  I was looking for actual facts, not the crap that you brought up.  Learn to be an adult.  I've been on this board a lot longer than you have, and I don't just post garbage like you do.  Thank you to the ones that actually answered my question and also had other insightful information.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    I did present the actual facts.  I did not lay them out because I though you had a minimum of how the NFL works both on draft choices and contracts. My incorrect assumption.

    You are the one who knew little about how things work in NFL compensation.  You might be one of those fantasy football guys who want to sign everything and anything witout the requisite knowledge to back it up


    I can see why you don't post much with you level of knowledge in that one person with the facts can competely destroy your presumptions

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    I believe NE has already budgeted for Welker's cap hit, since they offered the tagged deal.  So, I am not sure I agree with Walker's assessment.

    They also offered 9 mil per for 2 years, which he rejected. So, it's clear they were prepared to budget for 2 years at 18 million, but may not be willing to go more years or more money than that.

    This could become a sticky situation like the Mankins scenario.  Welker said he doesn't know if he'll attend any offseason workouts. Also, it was strongly rumored that Welker was looking for top flight money. If that's the case, I don't want to walk into another Mankins disaster where they're overpaying based on past laurels and reputation within an explosive offense led by Brady.

    Hate to bring this up again, but Welker sort of disappears in the big games.  He's doubled and his value in those games hasn't paid off. It's at the crux of our offensive "problem", under the surface.  It is.

    As great as he is, it's very annoying that this guy would try to mess things up because he's listening to his greedy agent.  Welker wouldn't be as good with another QB, other than Rodgers or Brees.  So, he's worth more here than he is anywhere else.

    Would you rather have Lloyd, Branch, Ochocinco, Stallworth, Gonzalez and maybe a couple draft picks like a Sanu and Joe Adams or pay Welker?

    At 31, with your skill set contingent on cutting on short routes, are you really worth 9+ million guaranteed?  Answer...NO.  Put Welker on a crappier team with a crappier QB and his market value isn't that.

    Not a knock on him, but his skill set doesn't hold the same market value as Calvin Johnson and the elite flankers. Welker is not a flanker.

    If he refuses to sign the tag, it might make sense to trade for him earlier rather than later.  Get Matt Forte in here and start giving the 4 yard Welker passes over to a running back.

    Sadly, I'd rather pay Matt Forte than Wes Welker.  I thought the cap might spike in 2014 but Kraft is saying that won't necessarily be the case, which means the NFL will control how the tv deal upgrade will pay out in 2014 and beyond.

    If the cap went up a ton in 2014, they'd have more wiggle room to take some liberties with the cash for a 31 year old WR's long term deal.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]According to James Walker of ESPN, the Patriots have @ $9.4 mil in cap space as of April 2nd.  With this, shouldn't the Patriots go ahead and sign Welker to a 3 year deal, and let it be a heavy pay for this year.  With over $9 mil left, that gives the Patriots the opportunity to pay Welker and still have money left to sign at least one veteran Safety or DE, i.e. Yermiah Bell or Andre Carter (if healthy).  I know Welker is just a slot receiver, but Brady and this offense need him as much as he needs us. Plus with the addition of Lloyd, it makes him that much more dangerous. Just a thought...
    Posted by hulk[/QUOTE]

    GOOD RIDDANCE!!! With his public show of uncertainty as to whether he is 100% committed to the Patriots' cause, despite being guaranteed over $9,000,000.00 for one more year of work with the chance to further be made into a legend by TB12 (even after dropping one of the most critical passes of his life), I would like to be the first to say BYE-BYE to Mr. Welker.  Someone needs to remind this smurf that 31-yo, 5-10, 185lb receivers with suspect knees get slower and old really fast. I'd venture to say ONLY TB-12 and Peyton could give this guy another really productive 2, maybe 3 seasons. Fix what you said WES, or otherwise, its off to the "David Givens/David Patton Memorial, overrated, wide-out grave yard" for ya. Shoot, TB12 can make any decent athlete a houshold name. Wise up WES! You aren't an O-lineman who saves Tom's life every play! You are a small, moving target he can hit with precision accuracy. MAYBE I WILL TAKE YOUR PLACE! Regardless, you won't be missed. NEXT!!!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]Draft choices and mid season aquistions are not going to cost anywhere near that much.  What I am trying to get across is if you pay him 12 this year, then 8 for the following two seasons.  That makes it a 3 year 28 mil salary.  Like I said it is just a thought.   By the way provpats, how much do you think teams pay for draft picks? 
    Posted by hulk[/QUOTE]

         I don't see the Pats signing a talented...but 5'8", 180lb., 31 year old slot receiver to a lucrative, long term deal. It's bad business. If Wes doesn't lower his salary expectations, he'll either be traded this season...or 2012 will be his final year as a Patriot.   
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]I believe NE has already budgeted for Welker's cap hit, since they offered the tagged deal.  So, I am not sure I agree with Walker's assessment. They also offered 9 mil per for 2 years, which he rejected. So, it's clear they were prepared to budget for 2 years at 18 million, but may not be willing to go more years or more money than that. This could become a sticky situation like the Mankins scenario.  Welker said he doesn't know if he'll attend any offseason workouts. Also, it was strongly rumored that Welker was looking for top flight money. If that's the case, I don't want to walk into another Mankins disaster where they're overpaying based on past laurels and reputation within an explosive offense led by Brady. Hate to bring this up again, but Welker sort of disappears in the big games.  He's doubled and his value in those games hasn't paid off. It's at the crux of our offensive "problem", under the surface.  It is. As great as he is, it's very annoying that this guy would try to mess things up because he's listening to his greedy agent.  Welker wouldn't be as good with another QB, other than Rodgers or Brees.  So, he's worth more here than he is anywhere else. Would you rather have Lloyd, Branch, Ochocinco, Stallworth, Gonzalez and maybe a couple draft picks like a Sanu and Joe Adams or pay Welker? At 31, with your skill set contingent on cutting on short routes, are you really worth 9+ million guaranteed?  Answer...NO.  Put Welker on a crappier team with a crappier QB and his market value isn't that. Not a knock on him, but his skill set doesn't hold the same market value as Calvin Johnson and the elite flankers. Welker is not a flanker. If he refuses to sign the tag, it might make sense to trade for him earlier rather than later.  Get Matt Forte in here and start giving the 4 yard Welker passes over to a running back. Sadly, I'd rather pay Matt Forte than Wes Welker.  I thought the cap might spike in 2014 but Kraft is saying that won't necessarily be the case, which means the NFL will control how the tv deal upgrade will pay out in 2014 and beyond. If the cap went up a ton in 2014, they'd have more wiggle room to take some liberties with the cash for a 31 year old WR's long term deal.
    Posted by BassFishing[/QUOTE]

    While I agree with your assesment of Welker and his financial predicament, we part ways on your Forte observation. I love his skill set and would love to see him with the Pats, but at what cost? I assume the Bears would look for compensation of high draft picks, and the Pats still would need to sign Forte. I would assume he has set a value for himself in the $20-$30M range. He has been injury prone, and the Pats have spent high draft choices on the position.

    We have also been back and forth on Mankins, and I believe that he signed for fair market value for a top 3 NFL G, which he had been up until this past year. Question is was that due to injury or decline?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    Welker isn't going anywhere.  A Welker 3 year deal is the perfect deal, both sides need to come to terms, ASAP. Lets get this done and move on.  Wes has redefined the slot role, he fits this system perfectly.  Do you seriously think BB is going to ask TFB to not only train the new WR's and get comfy with them but lose his go to guy and break in a new slot guy too?  No f'ing way!!! There is no time for that! 
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]Welker isn't going anywhere.  A Welker 3 year deal is the perfect deal, both sides need to come to terms, ASAP. Lets get this done and move on.  Wes has redefined the slot role, he fits this system perfectly.  Do you seriously think BB is going to ask TFB to not only train the new WR's and get comfy with them but lose his go to guy and break in a new slot guy too?  No f'ing way!!! There is no time for that! 
    Posted by TFB12[/QUOTE]

    TFB,

    I dont agree because the amount of money Wes is looking for guaranteed cannot fit into the Pats cap plan if the guaranteed amount is spread over 3 years. To give Wes fair market value it needs to be structured over a 5 year deal, but do you want to be paying Wes in his 34, 35 and 36 year old seasons 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    In Response to Re: Welker situation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Welker situation : While I agree with your assesment of Welker and his financial predicament, we part ways on your Forte observation. I love his skill set and would love to see him with the Pats, but at what cost? I assume the Bears would look for compensation of high draft picks, and the Pats still would need to sign Forte. I would assume he has set a value for himself in the $20-$30M range. He has been injury prone, and the Pats have spent high draft choices on the position. We have also been back and forth on Mankins, and I believe that he signed for fair market value for a top 3 NFL G, which he had been up until this past year. Question is was that due to injury or decline?
    Posted by rkarp[/QUOTE]


    My issues with Mankins is that he is overrated.  He's our least disciplined OL and has been for 7 years.    We aren't a run based team in a traditional sense and that's where his strength is (roadgrading blocking), so the furstration with his salary and what he delivers is real.  I don't care if he drove a pick up truck across country and has a ranch, or looks tough. I go by what I see.

    It wasn't fair market value. The Saints panicked and overpaid Evans.  Nicks was just cut and he signed a bloated deal with TB because they had a ton of money to spend. One team's bloated signing or one team's desperation is not the market.  You need to see a pattern before a market is set, and I would agree that has now happened, but it's in part because we caved to MAnkins.  I would tagged and traded Mankins.

    He played that victim role and now he's not as good as he claims. Light, Waters, Connolly and even some degree, Solder performed better than Mankins did in 2011.  Now, we're developing Cannon to either play Tackle or Guard and will probably go in that direction in the draft yet again to keep the pipeline rolling.

    I see the Mankins situation and this one as similar situations.  Each is highly valued by the organization, and each needed to be given major raises, which in turn throws the formula completely out of whack.

    Most of the money is invested in offense.  Everyone keeps complaining about the D, but BB is spending it on offense more so than D.  Ok, fine, but where does that end and where does the "problem" on offense end?

    What people don't want to admit is that Moss and Welker were so good or now Gronk/Hern and Welker are so good, they're binkies for Brady. 

    If you peel back the layers, Brady's binky is now mainly Welker with a good dose of Gronk and some Hern. Before it was Moss and Welker.  Brady and Welker just went on vacation together and spend every waking hour practiving together in the offseason.  I'd prefer Brady practicing with Ochocinco, Lloyd and the newer players so the rapport he ended up developing with Branch and then Welker, will be there.

    I am tired of seeing them dominate crappy competition and then NOT see the Brady/Welker connection work in the postseason.  Again, I love both players, what they do, the passion, etc, and would tell them that to their face right now.  But, you have to look to the future.  You can't just pretend a top heavy roster on offense is what works, when we have seen that it doesn't. And you can't expect every single player 1-6 on the WR depth chart to be a future HOFer either.

    Brady will be 35 in Sept. The last thing I want is him playing at 35 and 36 and throwing to a fading slot WR at age 32 and 33 at 9 million per season as some of our fanbase incorrectly bash this ascending, young D in an offensive era.  It makes our offense predictable, limits our run game, momentum, attitude, game management, ball control, etc.  Look no further than SB 46 as a major warning of how to adjust these future Pats teams on offense.  Gronk being hurt, proves we need to balance it out more so.

    Balance the offense out.  Get a lead RB in here.  I'd rather pay a lead RB (even though I don't want to) than pay a slot WR.  In short, that's the point.

    Now, if Welker was more reasonable at say 7.5 mil over 3 years (team option at 9 million in 2014), then that's a different story.  But, he's holding out for years and around 9 million per, which I am not in favor of at all.



     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    Last time, rubelips: 1993.

    Learn something for once. Ignorance is WORSE than stupidity:

    http://library.williams.edu/theses/pdf.php?id=36
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pancakespwn. Show Pancakespwn's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    At this rate I think he almost wants a 4 year type deal that will finish out his career here.

    At max I would give him a 3 year deal with it front loaded. 
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Welker situation


    Let's not over-react.  Welker is in the process of negotiating a long-term deal.  Signing the franchise tender would end that negotiation.  Since Welker prefers a long-term deal he's not going to sign the franchise tender until he absolutely has to.  The first OTA is on April 16, less than two weeks from now.  If a deal's not done by then (and the franchise tender isn't signed either), Welker isn't under any contract.  So deciding whether or not to show up isn't necessarily a straight-forward decision.  He's not employed by the Patriots right now . . . and he's not getting paid.   Would you show up to work if you weren't employed yet and weren't getting paid?  Probably not . . . 

    As far as Welker's skills, I disagree that Welker routinely disappears in big games.  As I've said all year, as a small slot receiver without breakout speed, he is limited in what he does, but all players are.  Surround him with a more diverse set of receivers who can challenge the deep part of the field and the edges and also a better receiver out of the backfield, and Welker becomes a much more effective option and much more difficult for other teams' defenses to shut down. Paradoxically, that probably means many fewer catches for Welker, since the other receivers will be getting many more.   But that would be good for the Pats.  Last year, the Pats relied far too heavily on just three or four guys.  Welker's huge catch total was symptomatic of the problem.  Get more guys around him who can play at his level or better and suddenly the offense becomes much more diverse and dynamic.

    I think the Pats realize this and want to keep Welker.  Generally, they tag guys they want to keep, not guys they want to trade (Cassel was an exception, of course, but that was a very unique situation).  If they do end up being unable to sign Welker, I think they're likely okay this year with all the additions at receiver so far (and possibly with more still to come).  However, having Welker in the receiving corp helps them, I think, and so I hope he stays.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the Pats will get the deal done with him . . . or Welker will decide to take the $9+ million for one year and sign the franchise tender.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: Welker situation

    Yes, that's what I contend. The owners knew they were going to be facing a cap concept prior to the 1993 CBA.

    Yes.

    This is well documented and well known to those who read books and know facts. It's well documented in Education of a Coach, Patriot Reign and more specifically and more thoroughly in Pats Management Secrets Vol 1 and 2. Read the books, dummy. It won't hurt you.

    It's also why Jimmy Johnson dealt Herschel Walker in 1989.  He knew that he'd need picks to build a team, not putting a ton of money into a handful of players.

    I love being lectured by people who don't do their homework.  It's very funny to me. Maybe I should walk over to Duke here for lunch and start lecturing professors on chemical engineering?

    LMAO
     
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