Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft. : He's an inside receiver AKA slot guy. The vast majority of the work he does is in the middle of the field. They offered him 8 mil per for 2 years which honestly is already overpaying him. It's all semantics. Outside WR are more valuable so they get paid more. That's the way it works. Catches are not more relevant that TD's. Welker gets 10 catches for 100 another guy gets 7 catches for 120. He's better because he got more catches? Silly talk.  I would rather have Mike Wallace and Brandon LLoyd / Reggie Wayne rather Welker with Wayne / Lloyd if you talking 9 mil per. Lets all pretned Welker was killing it on Miami when he didn't have Brady throwing to him..Oh wait..Cassell year right...yeah. Moss  didn't have anything to do with him getting the middle of the field to himself after 07.
    Posted by tompenny


    Welkers been used as the X or F receiver the last couple of years which isn't always the inside receiver as you put it. He works the inside of the field but for the most part Hern, Edelman have been in the slot more often then Welker has. Now he's not a Z receiver (which is what I'm guessing you were thinking) but he hasn't played the Y role often either.

    When someone typically says slot guys it's in reference to a Y #3 WR not a primary receiver.

    btw if a WR gets 10 catches for 100yrds that means on average he got 10 1st downs. a WR with 7catches for 120yrds only got 7 1st downs. If you average it over the course of a season that's 38 extra 1st downs. Sometimes yrds isn't as important as receptions either if that WR keeps drives going.

    But if you want to go by yrds Welker was:

    #2 in yrds in 11'
    #30 in yrds in 10' (the 1 year he didn't record 100recs after his injury)
    #2 in yrds in 09'
    #10 in yrds in 08'
    #12 in yrds in 07'

    over that time period he's top 5 in yrds per season. He's seemed to have done ok with Cassel throwing him the ball and without Moss too. Care to make any other silly statements?
     
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    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft. : Welkers been used as the X or F receiver the last couple of years which isn't always the inside receiver as you put it. He works the inside of the field but for the most part Hern, Edelman have been in the slot more often then Welker has. Now he's not a Z receiver (which is what I'm guessing you were thinking) but he hasn't played the Y role often either. When someone typically says slot guys it's in reference to a Y #3 WR not a primary receiver. btw if a WR gets 10 catches for 100yrds that means on average he got 10 1st downs. a WR with 7catches for 120yrds only got 7 1st downs. If you average it over the course of a season that's 38 extra 1st downs. Sometimes yrds isn't as important as receptions either if that WR keeps drives going. But if you want to go by yrds Welker was: #2 in yrds in 11' #30 in yrds in 10' (the 1 year he didn't record 100recs after his injury) #2 in yrds in 09' #10 in yrds in 08' #12 in yrds in 07' over that time period he's top 5 in yrds per season. He's seemed to have done ok with Cassel throwing him the ball and without Moss too. Care to make any other silly statements?
    Posted by PatsEng


    Welker played without Moss and Brady and put up great numers When? He's always had Brady throwing to him with Moss..or Moss on the team. Tom Brady doesn't make Welker much better than he actually is? Are you serious? Put him on another team Welker isn't sniffing prow bowls or putting up gaudy stats.  Your more first downs is  theory is ridiculous too. 1 catch for 20 yards is as productive as 2 for 20 unless your specifically trying to milk the clock. If you rather have an great predominently inside reciever with medicore outside receivers then 2 good outside recevider and an average inside reciever then we disagree on philosopy. Gronk and Hernandez would just get the spread out wealth of the catches over the middle from the single coverage they get from a good outside receiver. It's more important for defenses to cover shot middle and long routes then it is for 1 guy to rack up 100 catch seasons while DB's man up on the outside and win the matchup weekly.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft. : Welker played without Moss and Brady and put up great numers When? Tom Brady doesn't make Welker much better than he actually is? Are you serious? Put him on another team Welker isn't sniffing prow bowls or putting up gaudy stats.  Your more first downs is  theory is ridiculous too. 1 catch for 20 yards is as productive as 2 for 20 unless your specifically trying to milk the clock. If you rather have an great predominently inside reciever with medicore outside receivers then 2 good outside recevider and an average inside reciever then we disagree on philosopy. Gronk and Hernandez would just get the spread out wealth of the catches over the middle from the single coverage they get from a good outside receiver. It's more important for defenses to cover shot middle and long routes then it is for 1 guy to rack up 100 catch seasons.
    Posted by tompenny


    If you have a O that you know can score on any given drive then the longer you take to score the less opportunities an opponent has too score. It's a pretty simple concept that almost every team in the league understands. When you have a weaker O then you don't worry about clock management you just worry about scoring. If you are looking for examples look at Det for how many years? How about Buf with Stevie Johnson? Oak with it's deep WR's? Cards with Fits?

    If you look deeper here are the top WR's in yrd/catch average with a min of 20 recs:

    1) Floyd SD - didn't make playoffs
    2) Knox Chi - didn't make playoffs
    3) Cruz NYG - Won SB
    4) Moore Oak - didn't make playoffs
    5) Jackson SD - didn't make playoffs
    6) Aromashodhu Min - didn't make playoffs
    7) Jones Atl - knocked out first round
    8) Fitzgerald Ari - didn't make playoffs
    9) Smith Car - didn't make playoffs
    10) Johnson Det - knocked out 2nd round

    So of the top 10 WR's in the league for yrds/catch only 3 actually made the playoffs. Not enough? Ok of those top 10 WR only 1 of those WR's (C. Johnson) was on a top 5 O this year (Det was #5). Of the top 5 O's this year (NO, NE, GB, Phi , Det) only NE didn't have a WR with a 15+yrd/catch average yet NE ranked 2nd in terms of yrds/game passing average. So, I would say having a WR that gets 1st downs is just as important as a WR who gets a high yrds/catch average.

    Of course Moss and Brady helps Welker but on the same note you don't think Welker helps Moss and Brady either? Are you serious? Truth is Brady's numbers have been better these last 3 years then they were at any point in his career (not including 07' which Welker played a major role too). Some would say that 11' might have been one of his best years. In 08' without Brady, Welker didn't skip a beat which shows that even without Brady he can still be effective. In 11' without Moss he was still affective and still put up big numbers so even without Moss he can still be effective. If Welkers numbers remain constant whether it's Brady or Cassel throwing to him and regardless if Branch or Moss are lined up across from him do you honestly believe Welker isn't the main factor for his own success?

    But, then again understanding the game takes more then playing Madden sometimes
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    This is a good debate going on.

    I am not involved,but just wanna add more input to the argument.

    This past year was the only one where Wes played a lot of outside WR. I assume there are 2 reason. One is Moss is gone and thus more attention to the inside so they moved Wes outside to make him more effective and change up a scheme that had been figured out.

    The other reason is because we run a lot of 2 TE sets where there IS NO slot WR in that alignment.

    Going forward, you have the best TE in the league who works the middle. You have a TE/WR hybrid that plays the slot ok. You have an offense slowly getting back to run/playaction/big formation.


    All that considered. I dont know how valuble Wes is to us going forward. Can he still produce in this system? HElls Yeah, but like I said , him getting 120 catches a year is good and bad. Half of his first down could be had by a RB if they chose. I think him having that much production is bad and makes us less diverse and more predictable and keeps Brady from going to other guys. Thats just My opinion but having the Best WR in the League and even having the best WR tandem(Moss n Wes) hasnt won us any Lombardi's yet.

    How does that happen with Brady who is eons better than he was from
     01-04??

    Because we are Stubborn now and refuse to mix it up. Back in the days Brady would have 8-9 guys getting catches every game. Now a days, teams know the 2 guys to stop and after that they know your seldom used, complimentary players are not gonna get it done and they play them accordingly. We basically made a slight change from being a Moss/Welker offense to Gronk/Welker offense.



    Same reason we lost this past year is why we were blown out in playoffs 09'. Too much reliance on one player and a small one at that. If we are gonna use that philosophy atleast do it with a Calvin Johnson, not a smurf.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    So mentioning a bunch of receivers on horrible teams not making the playoff is supposed to convince me? I guess you can also sit around in your dream world an pretend Welker is as good as Fitz and Megatron. Keep pretending catches is an incredibly important statistic. You must think wins and losses is the most imortant pitching stat in baseball too.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    What we really need then is a player Brady will throw too so we can be more diverse.

     
    Completely agree.  We need to have more guys involved in the offense.  Right now the ball goes through too few hands. 


    Ocho came in and may not have been Moss, but he was very capable considering we made it work with Caldwell and Gaffney. Only difference is Brady HAD to work with those guys because Wes was not here, but now with Wes, who is Brady gonna get on page with?  If its any bit of a struggle, he will just go for what he knows and this concerns me.
    Posted by JayShizzle45


    It's hard for me to accept that Brady doesn't throw to guys because he's got a "binky" in Wes.  He was pretty quick to adopt Gronk and Hernandez as targets, after all.  I guess you can say he gets over-fixated on certain guys (Moss when he was here, Welker, and now Gronk).  But I think if a guy is in the right place and shows he can catch Brady will throw to him.  It's just that he needs to have confidence in the person he's throwing to.  And that has something to do with what the receiver actually does on the field. At least that's what I think.  If there is an issue with Brady, I'm not sure taking away effective weapons is the best way to solve it.  If there is an issue, then I think the coaches have to address that by coaching Brady, not by taking away effective receiving targets.
     
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    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    Pro, the problem to me is not Welker, but since we have our 2 two dtud TE's I just think he is expendable and you could conceievably move on from him, start a  new era and fix a few things in the process. I dont want him to go just because.


    Another thing you mentioned was that Brady had no problem integrating the TE's. I think this is unique. #87 and #81 arent just guys. They are 2 young players at the top of their class so thats a BIG difference than just integrating a role player. Brady knows how important a TE in this offense is and also knows a good one when he see's it. The fact Gronk is the BEST TE is a bit unique to me.


    The main problem to me is that your options outside of Wes are so much lower in talent that Brady doesnt want to go elsewhere. Contrast that to 01-04, when we never had a dominant guy catching 120 balls. Sure Brown did it, but we also had 3 to 4 other legit # 2 Wr's around Brown. Patten, Givens, Branch, Brown were all the integrated every week and this was hard to Stop. All 3 players outside of Brown went on to cash in as evidence of their own capabilities.

    WHo is lining up tp sign away Underwood or Edleman, or Price, or whoever we have...??  Thats the difference , IMO

    We need to scrap the one man machine and get back to spreading the ball. I fear the reason they havent is because Brady is too old to be teaching 3 or 4 guys the offense now and they prefer to keep it light and overuse a couple players. Not good in postseason though.
     
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    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    Jay . . . I agree about the other options being lower level talent.  That's why I am in complete agreement we need to get another good WR--or even another two.  I really like the look of the offense with (say, just for example), Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Garcon, and Branch/Ocho or (even better) a promising rookie as the five primary receivers.  Improve the backs (better runners, better receivers out of the backfield) and you have the makings of a truly dominant offense.  I'm hoping Ridley and Vereen end up working out as the backs so we don't have to draft more RBs, but I would like to see an upgrade in the backfield over BJGE and Woodhead.  A better runner is important--but a guy who can catch the ball on screens and as an outlet receiver would help an awful lot too.  Back in the old days, backs were a big part of our passing offense as receivers.  Now we hardly ever throw to a back. If I'm not mistaken Woodhead had just 18 receptions and BJGE 9 (Faulk and Ridley combined for another 10). Ideally, we'd be getting close to 50 receptions from the two lead backs (the Packers got 29 and 19 from Starks and Grant plus another 15 from Kuhn, for comparison).      

     
     
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    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    9.4 mil is too much for a slot guy in a capped year. 21 mil for 3 years plus bonus max and only 2 years guaranteed. yes or no, 48 hours. if no, trade welker for a 1 and do some damage in the draft especailly at tight end. (if yo ucant get a 1 from 31 teams, get a 2). anyone else agree or have creative thoughts?
    Posted by bredbru


    Keeping Wes and getting you to the Doc, but quick.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    So mentioning a bunch of receivers on horrible teams not making the playoff is supposed to convince me? I guess you can also sit around in your dream world an pretend Welker is as good as Fitz and Megatron. Keep pretending catches is an incredibly important statistic. You must think wins and losses is the most imortant pitching stat in baseball too.
    Posted by tompenny


    Hrm lets see would I rather have a pitcher with a 4.5era and a 28-5 record or a pitcher with 2.8 era and a 5-28 record if they were on the same team? This is a tough one....

    Would I rather have a guy that can make 100+ catches a year or a guy that makes 60 catches a yr with a higher /catch average, hrm.....  that's a tough one too. On one account the higher /catch average is flashier. On the other hand the more catches moves the chains more often and takes more time that the opponent has to score....  since or team is usually up more often then it is down do I want the opponent to have more time on the clock when they get the ball back or less.... decisions decisions. When I absolutely need a 1st down do I want to throw it to a guy that has a better chance of catching the ball for a 1st or one that can get me more yards....  Hrm... Do I want a big play WR on a team that ranked 2nd in scoring even with a high catch guy or do I want to maintain that same O and compliment Welker with a outside the numbers WR.... Boy these are tough one's

    But I guess in your dream world Johnny Knox is better then Welker since he averages 20yrds/catch because recs aren't important lol.

    BTW the players I listed were in order of the the most yrds/catch average with a 20rec minimum. So there is some relevance that if yrds/catch was an important stat that it would show up with the playoff teams maybe? I mean when you list out that same list by rec's 8 of the top 10 made the playoffs with 3 of them being in the SB. So if the goal was to make the playoffs what do you think is the more important stat. Rec's which 8 of the top 10 had teams make it to the playoffs or average yrds/catch in which 3 of the top 10 (20recs min) made the playoffs? Do you think that's a coincidence or do you think generally the better team utilizes is receivers better instead of trying to rely on bigger lower % plays?
     
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    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    Hrm lets see would I rather have a pitcher with a 4.5era and a 28-5 record or a pitcher with 2.8 era and a 5-28 record if they were on the same team? This is a tough one....

    _________________

    This is all I had to read. Your clueless. Your taking the worse era pitcher who is a worse pitcher who is winning games despite the fact that he isn't good? Guess you never watched Pedro getting shafted out of wins when he was the best pitcher on the planet. You must have love Dice K. What a great pitcher !!!  I'd rather have Kendrick Perkins than Dwight Howard. The Thunder win more games !!! Your yards per catch thing is still laugable..why aren't you comparing Victor Cruz who plays the same position to Welker. Less catches same production so Welker had a far superior year because of more catches...pure stupidity. Megatron, less catches more yards far more TD's worse year than Welker, add Gronk to that list and on and on...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    Hrm lets see would I rather have a pitcher with a 4.5era and a 28-5 record or a pitcher with 2.8 era and a 5-28 record if they were on the same team? This is a tough one.... _________________ This is all I had to read. Your clueless. Your taking the worse era pitcher who is a worse pitcher who is winning games despite the fact that he isn't good? Guess you never watched Pedro getting shafted out of wins when he was the best pitcher on the planet. You must have love Dice K. What a great pitcher !!!  I'd rather have Kendrick Perkins than Dwight Howard. The Thunder win more games !!! Your yards per catch thing is still laugable..why aren't you comparing Victor Cruz who plays the same position to Welker. Less catches same production so Welker had a far superior year because of more catches...pure stupidity. Megatron, less catches more yards far more TD's worse year than Welker, add Gronk to that list and on and on...
    Posted by tompenny


    So you are telling me that if I said in 12' you could have a guy that will win you 28 games and lose 5 but have a 4.5era for the Sox or you could have a guy that will win 5 games and lose 28 with a 2.8era that you'd rather have 5 wins instead of 28 in 12'?

    ROFL I'll take the 23 extra games this year and run. Maybe you don't realize this but stats are meaningless in the end it's about the scoreboard. I don't care if it's voodoo, players seem to play there best around them, or the hand of god comes down I'll take the wins over the stats any day because in the end what gets you into the playoffs wins or stats?

    Ohh yeah with you examples you are picking out the best receivers in the league so I'll pick out the worst. Ocho higher yrd/catch average better then Welker? Reliy Copper better yrd/catch average better then Welker? Denarius Moore better then Welker?

    It's a combo of the two and Welker has been one of the best rec and yrds per yr guy in the league over the last 5 yrs. Of course C Johnson and Fitz are better that's laughable to compare them but I'd rather have Welker then Lloyd, Manningham, yes Cruz, and even Wallace
     
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    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    Stats are meaningless but you care about catches? Funny how that works. Also funny that you think win losses in a team sport is a basis for a players overall value. Total nonsense. First of all in your silly scenerio nobody would take the high era pitcher over the lower era pitcher on the open market because the only think he can can control is pitching. He can't control run support.  Arian Foster isn't as good as  Law Firm based on the Patriots winning more games...cool story.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    Stats are meaningless but you care about catches? Funny how that works. Also funny that you think win losses in a team sport is a basis for a players overall value. Total nonsense. First of all in your silly scenerio nobody would take the high era pitcher over the lower era pitcher on the open market because the only think he can can control is pitching. He can't control run support.  Arian Foster isn't as good as  Law Firm based on the Patriots winning more games...cool story.
    Posted by tompenny


    I believe your question was "You must think wins and losses is the most imortant pitching stat in baseball too". You never said it was a basis for a players overall value or that it's a basis for signing a player. That you are pulling out of thin air. Given your original question I'd rather have the guy that wins more games plain and simple. I think it's completely idiotic to want the pitcher with better stats if you can have one that wins more games. but that's just me
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    This whole thread is about Welkers value to the team. If you think he's worth 9 million per year I guess we just disagree then and there is nothing else to discuss. I've said this before. If the choice is overpaying Welker and having 2 average outside receivers again on the outside like last year...I'd rather have 2 good outside recievers and and average guy over the middle like Edelman because Gronk and Hernandez also work those areas of the field. It's simple as that.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    In Response to Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft. : Normal I like your posts but you fell into the "he's just a slot guy" mantra. He's had over 500 catches the last 5 yrs, 4-100 catch years out of 5. No other receiver in the league has had as many catches in any time period during that run. He's more then just a slot guy to this team and to Brady. As such he has much more value to the Pats then any other team. I also doubt you'd get a 1st. If you think he's just a slot guy why would any team give up a 1st for a 31yr old slot guy? I doubt we;d even get a 2nd unless it's a late 2nd honestly. The value we'd get back for Welker could not replace what he provides. The best thing right now is to compliment Welker not trade him POing Brady and bringing in an unknown. It would be 06' all over again, except with a worse D
    Posted by PatsEng

    hey eng,
    thanks.
    i dont know about "trap".
    i know his value of saving brady's @ss on 2 out of 3 plays.
    i clearly indicated being on the fence and can easily go one way or the other.

    i would definitely take a player as equally as effective on the outside over having wes and try to bring someone else into the slot. with wes's age, the numbers he demands ($) due to his production, the plethora in the draft and fa of wide receivers, unless he took a lesser deal, like i offered, it might be a good time to get younger (there are 5 or so great candidates who are quick, good route runners have good hands, and are tough. he will have to replaced sooner or later). he has rejected 2 years 16 mil. i hope hes just trying to get a longer contract and not more per yr. pats may have put themselves in a corner not getting a cheaper deal done or working a trade before tagging.

    now with that all said, we still have to find a trading partner. frankly i think assuring no one will offer even a 2, i dont think anyone could predict no team would do that. so i would do my diligence and find out.

    i simply feel 9.4 mil may be better spent elsewhere, especially as it may lock us into having to pay too much over 3 to 4 years or see him let go.

    this may be a difference of opinion, however it's thought out and not completely irrational.

    if we retain wes long-term of course i will continue top love him and what he does for us, even if we over pay.
    just like the draft, i've got one of 6 billion opinions. dont think i would vilify anyone for a different opinion.

    i agree brady's happiness is a factor.

    if we brought in one of the wr free agents, a large outside receiver who can get the job done and a superb young slot guy i dont know that brady would complain too long.

    thanks for your post.


    peace

    brd/bred
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    In Response to Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft. : Bred, Do you understand what 3/$21 means? What is plus bonus max?  Do you understand the ramifications of $21 million guaranteed over 2 years? Do you want to resign Gronk, Hernandez, Spikes et al as they come due?  Pats cannot afford the type of deal you are talking about. Pats made the right move. They can swallow the cap hit this year and go year to year with Wes. Eagles did same with Vick, albeit much larger $$ than Wes money. Perhaps Wes will accept under market value of 5/$40 with $20 guarantee, but still dangerous territory as the Pats look down the road and try to keep their own.   
    Posted by rkarp


    rkarp,
    huh? not sure we're understanding each other.
     3 years at 7 mil per, with 2 years guaranted is less than 5 years 40 mil, 20 guaranteed if my math is right (so not sure you got me) and further if we cant get him at a reasonbel price for 2 years or year to year i suggested trying to trade as maybe a better option.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    I would trade him for a pick. Every year the guy has over 100 catches, but we arent winning a championship with him being our # 1. It also keeps us from spreading the ball as well as running as passing to Wes is a , you ready, "extension of the running game"  Im tired of this finesse crap. Run the Dam Ball when you want, Pass when you want to pass. Sign Wayne and E.Royal. Problem solved. Use your extra pick to move up a few slots to grab RB T.Richardson(he is a difference maker) and also supposed to fall out of the top ten because(its a passing league) These guys on nfl network all said they wouldnt take Trent in top 10, but because noone runs a back 25 plus times anymore....ReallY??  Well how come the first signed free agents were A.Foster and M.Lynch?? Get this guy who can make our offense deadly again like in 04' Use all the rest of picks on D-line, O-line, LB, CB, S
    Posted by JayShizzle45

    hey jay,
    thanks for your contributions!

    re 

    " I would trade him for a pick. Every year the guy has over 100 catches, but we arent winning a championship with him being our # 1. It also keeps us from spreading the ball as well as running as passing to Wes is a , you ready, "extension of the running game"  Im tired of this finesse crap. Run the Dam Ball when you want, Pass when you want to pass.

    these were part of my thinking too.

    Sign Wayne and E.Royal. Problem solved.
    who we get, i'll leave that to bb, but it can be done

    Use your extra pick to move up a few slots to grab RB T.Richardson(he is a difference maker) and also supposed to fall out of the top ten because(its a passing league)

    These guys on nfl network all said they wouldnt take Trent in top 10, but because noone runs a back 25 plus times anymore....ReallY??  Well how come the first signed free agents were A.Foster and M.Lynch??


    Get this guy who can make our offense deadly again like in 04'

    re trent, this has been rolling around in the bakc of my mind too.
    woudl i be willing to move up to get him and make our offense virtually unstoppable?

    def want the outside wr and the slot guy in the draft regardless(there is even a great player who may be wes but stronger who likely will not be drafted). this is a unique year to draft wide receivers with so many coming out. 


    Use all the rest of picks on D-line, O-line, LB, CB, S
    "Its not how you get here, Its what you DO here"

    -Bill Belichick"


    peace
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    They aren't trading Welker.  They'll re-work a deal with Welker and lower that 9.4 cap hit for one player.  He is one of the Main guys on the offense for Pats.  I feel the Pats will take care of him. 
    Posted by NOISE

    i think that is what they "want" to do, but he has refused 8 mil per, so dont know what room that leavces to lower it from 9.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft. : Jay, I agree they need another effective WR, but I think they should keep Welker too.  There's the technical issue of not being able to trade him until he accepts the tender--and once he accepts the tender of him being difficult to trade because of the high cost to the acquiring team.  But beyond that, I think Welker still has a big role to play in this offense.  We need additional guys who can get open deep and on the perimeter, but having Welker working the underneath zones in the middle with Gronk and Hernandez is a very nice option.  Plus, we know Welker and Brady work together well.  We can't be so sure of that with new receivers, so letting Welker go would be a big risk because we don't have a clear replacement for him.  We just don't have enough receivers on our roster now and losing one of the best will mean an even bigger hole to fill. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    good points and i agree. but it has to happen sooner or later and what better time than a year when there is near limitless # of slots and wideouts in fa and teh draft.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    This is a good debate going on. I am not involved,but just wanna add more input to the argument. This past year was the only one where Wes played a lot of outside WR. I assume there are 2 reason. One is Moss is gone and thus more attention to the inside so they moved Wes outside to make him more effective and change up a scheme that had been figured out. The other reason is because we run a lot of 2 TE sets where there IS NO slot WR in that alignment. Going forward, you have the best TE in the league who works the middle. You have a TE/WR hybrid that plays the slot ok. You have an offense slowly getting back to run/playaction/big formation. All that considered. I dont know how valuble Wes is to us going forward. Can he still produce in this system? HElls Yeah, but like I said , him getting 120 catches a year is good and bad. Half of his first down could be had by a RB if they chose. I think him having that much production is bad and makes us less diverse and more predictable and keeps Brady from going to other guys. Thats just My opinion but having the Best WR in the League and even having the best WR tandem(Moss n Wes) hasnt won us any Lombardi's yet. How does that happen with Brady who is eons better than he was from  01-04?? Because we are Stubborn now and refuse to mix it up. Back in the days Brady would have 8-9 guys getting catches every game. Now a days, teams know the 2 guys to stop and after that they know your seldom used, complimentary players are not gonna get it done and they play them accordingly. We basically made a slight change from being a Moss/Welker offense to Gronk/Welker offense. Same reason we lost this past year is why we were blown out in playoffs 09'. Too much reliance on one player and a small one at that. If we are gonna use that philosophy atleast do it with a Calvin Johnson, not a smurf.
    Posted by JayShizzle45

    creating and scheming an offense to be indefensible. thats where im at.
    so i read you and i hear you.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    Pro, the problem to me is not Welker, but since we have our 2 two dtud TE's I just think he is expendable and you could conceievably move on from him, start a  new era and fix a few things in the process. I dont want him to go just because. Another thing you mentioned was that Brady had no problem integrating the TE's. I think this is unique. #87 and #81 arent just guys. They are 2 young players at the top of their class so thats a BIG difference than just integrating a role player. Brady knows how important a TE in this offense is and also knows a good one when he see's it. The fact Gronk is the BEST TE is a bit unique to me. The main problem to me is that your options outside of Wes are so much lower in talent that Brady doesnt want to go elsewhere. Contrast that to 01-04, when we never had a dominant guy catching 120 balls. Sure Brown did it, but we also had 3 to 4 other legit # 2 Wr's around Brown. Patten, Givens, Branch, Brown were all the integrated every week and this was hard to Stop. All 3 players outside of Brown went on to cash in as evidence of their own capabilities. WHo is lining up tp sign away Underwood or Edleman, or Price, or whoever we have...??  Thats the difference , IMO We need to scrap the one man machine and get back to spreading the ball. I fear the reason they havent is because Brady is too old to be teaching 3 or 4 guys the offense now and they prefer to keep it light and overuse a couple players. Not good in postseason though.
    Posted by JayShizzle45

    " Pro, the problem to me is not Welker, but since we have our 2 two dtud TE's I just think he is expendable and you could conceievably move on from him, start a  new era and fix a few things in the process. I dont want him to go just because. "

    thats where im at especially with the amount of money.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    Jay . . . I agree about the other options being lower level talent.  That's why I am in complete agreement we need to get another good WR--or even another two.  I really like the look of the offense with (say, just for example), Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Garcon, and Branch/Ocho or (even better) a promising rookie as the five primary receivers.  Improve the backs (better runners, better receivers out of the backfield) and you have the makings of a truly dominant offense.  I'm hoping Ridley and Vereen end up working out as the backs so we don't have to draft more RBs, but I would like to see an upgrade in the backfield over BJGE and Woodhead.  A better runner is important--but a guy who can catch the ball on screens and as an outlet receiver would help an awful lot too.  Back in the old days, backs were a big part of our passing offense as receivers.  Now we hardly ever throw to a back. If I'm not mistaken Woodhead had just 18 receptions and BJGE 9 (Faulk and Ridley combined for another 10). Ideally, we'd be getting close to 50 receptions from the two lead backs (the Packers got 29 and 19 from Starks and Grant plus another 15 from Kuhn, for comparison).        
    Posted by prolate0spheroid

    good post, ive been saying this for at least a year

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    This whole thread is about Welkers value to the team. If you think he's worth 9 million per year I guess we just disagree then and there is nothing else to discuss. I've said this before. If the choice is overpaying Welker and having 2 average outside receivers again on the outside like last year...I'd rather have 2 good outside recievers and and average guy over the middle like Edelman because Gronk and Hernandez also work those areas of the field. It's simple as that.
    Posted by tompenny


    guys, you are both intelligent, lets drop it down a notch and keep it civil. we are a community. (keep making points, lets not make it personal. nothing wrong if we just disagree)


    peace
    brd/bred
    peace
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.

    In Response to Welker tagged 9 mil+; I say tag and trade,get fa outside receiver and one in draft along with a slot in draft.:
    9.4 mil is too much for a slot guy in a capped year. 21 mil for 3 years plus bonus max and only 2 years guaranteed. yes or no, 48 hours. if no, trade welker for a 1 and do some damage in the draft especailly at tight end. (if yo ucant get a 1 from 31 teams, get a 2). anyone else agree or have creative thoughts?
    Posted by bredbru


         A radical idea. But, I tend to agree. Welker is, and has been, a great player for the Pats. But, slot receivers are much easier to replace than a deep threat. So...I'll go one better. Trade Welker to the NFC for a high two...and then sign Pittsburghs' Mike Wallace to an offer sheet!

         The cost of the 31st pick for Wallace would be offset by what the Pats get in return for Wes. Sign the 26 year old Wallace to a big money, five year deal. Then, use Edelman or a Joe Adams type obtained through the draft to replace Wes.   

         Thoughts?
     
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