"We've Got To Rank Ds Differently"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re:


    Just wish our D could manufacture some in the playoffs.  Maybe a 3 out from time to time.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from csylvia79. Show csylvia79's posts

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    In response to tcal2-'s comment:


    Just wish our D could manufacture some in the playoffs.  Maybe a 3 out from time to time.



    The D can be rated by how they do during the season but Brady can't...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

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    I agree the ydes allowed is screwy

    TO battles r very indicative of... will win. The current gamer but TOs arE events  that are too tough to count ON.

    ,,,Llets say  jets in a game  have fewer TOs in a game than SF, I wouldn't trade jests D for  SFs D  ?

    i think maybe some stat that doesn't count pick 6's and pts off TOs off a short field?

    or maybe some efficiency pts per possession and length of field???

    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

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    Last 3 Pats playoff losses:  ZERO defensive turnovers.  Yeah, they do matter.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

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    I sort of need to get away from the Pats to evaluate a new measurement system door Ds

    i think I agreed with you last year the PatsD played better than given ctredit

     

    Unfortunately in this world u r remembered for when you do it , like the end of the game  

    when your Qb puts your team ahead with 2mins left and you lose, then everyone can take a piece of the loss, against Balt the offense was a bit short

    But fever BB chant trusted his D- at times

    Bb went on 4th and 2 on his 28 against the Colts instead of give it to his D

     


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from csylvia79. Show csylvia79's posts

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    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I sort of need to get away from the Pats to evaluate a new measurement system door Ds

    i think I agreed with you last year the PatsD played better than given ctredit

     

    Unfortunately in this world u r remembered for when you do it , like the end of the game  

    when your Qb puts your team ahead with 2mins left and you lose, then everyone can take a piece of the loss, against Balt the offense was a bit short

    But fever BB chant trusted his D- at times

    Bb went on 4th and 2 on his 28 against the Colts instead of give it to his D

     


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     



    That was the 2009 D. We couldn't ice that game on 4 downs either.  That D, however, was terrible at turnovers.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The Refs bagged that game... The screwed the Pats a number of times!

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

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    Too bad the future of defenses couldn't be measured by balls being thrown over corners heads while they are clueless it is happening. Or if only there was a new formula that could measure the distance between two safeties as a happy receiver catches balls for touchdowns unscathed. When they rank defenses this way, we'll finally be considered "rebuilt".

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

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    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Too bad the future of defenses couldn't be measured by balls being thrown over corners heads while they are clueless it is happening. Or if only there was a new formula that could measure the distance between two safeties as a happy receiver catches balls for touchdowns unscathed. When they rank defenses this way, we'll finally be considered "rebuilt".

     



    Rolf

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

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    I think it remarkable that we have done as well as we have

    BB has been turning over this team with late picks

    I think this D can be pretty good

    i think that they  will be better than last yr

    I like Spikes and AWilson to be enforcers on D

    Our Offense needs Gronk to be there healthy

     

    One cannot take away best dry best weapon from the Qb and expect great resullts

    my greatest disappointment last yr was not seeing Gronk and AH on the field at the same time. No one stoppered that


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

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     Personally, I'm fine with points given up by the D as the best simple measure, though no stat tells the whole story.  All the other stats (yards, first downs, third down percentage, turnovers, etc. ) add detail, but still no stat or combination of stats is going to provide the full picture.

     

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     Personally, I'm fine with points given up by the D as the best simple measure, though no stat tells the whole story.  All the other stats (yards, first downs, third down percentage, turnovers, etc. ) add detail, but still no stat or combination of stats is going to provide the full picture.

     

     

     



    Agree but why should a pick 6 count, or when the O kills the D  with a fumble on the 5?

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

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    I think there have been bad O games, bad D games and bad by both

    When the team loses sometimes just 1play by anyone can make the difference. Chung made a horrendous gaffe on STs iin a game, he took a chance to make a play but failed and we lost. But the loss wasn't all his fault, I still think that there is an efficiency quotient that isn't measured for both. O and D.  If you just look at the end of the games, AS could have won 42, put Eli out of ny and coughing too. and now I have to listen to hi,m yakking about how he owns Eli. I blame him for that loss. As it would have ended the game,lei worse than Buckner who should not have been bin Tyne game but AS was all pro

     

    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to csylvia79's comment:

     

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

     

     


    Just wish our D could manufacture some in the playoffs.  Maybe a 3 out from time to time.

     

     



    The D can be rated by how they do during the season but Brady can't...

     

     

     



    Never said that. But, the Spikes INT in 2011s AFC Title game followed by an immediate Brady INT, his second of the game, where he should be looking to ice the game in some fashion, means our D was trying to help.

     

    Just because two bounces for fumbles in SB 46 didn't bounce in our direction, doesn't mean Brady should be recklessly launching an INT on 1st down in the 4th qtr with a 17-12 lead like that.

    I don't get your logic.  The D outplayed the O in the 2011 postseason. 

    This past year, neither side of the ball really outperformed the other.

    I am just pointing out the myth that a few extra yards here or there in prevent or garbage time counting against a D's "ranking", is a joke.

    NYGs D in 2011? Ranked 27th. They really weren't better than our D.   Each pitched shutout in the first half of the November game.

    In this league, you can tilt the scales with a big turnover advantage on D, even if you allow more yards than someone else.

    For example, Pitt last year was terrible at it, and they missed the playoffs again.  Why? D couldn't create any turnovers, but they were "ranked" above ours. Or, were they?

     




    NYGs D in 2011? Ranked 27th. They really weren't better than our D.

    oh yeah they were-they finally got healthy in time for the playoffs and that D you saw including SB46 was the real Giants D

    as for the pats D of recent vintage they couldn't stop an iceberg going uphill when it counts

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

     

    I agree the ydes allowed is screwy

    TO battles r very indicative of... will win. The current gamer but TOs arE events  that are too tough to count ON.

    ,,,Llets say  jets in a game  have fewer TOs in a game than SF, I wouldn't trade jests D for  SFs D  ?

    i think maybe some stat that doesn't count pick 6's and pts off TOs off a short field?

    or maybe some efficiency pts per possession and length of field???

    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     



    I agree. Even if you look at last night's game in preseason, It appeared the D played terribly, but they did not. No turnovers created, but it's sort of hard to do that when you're on the field after 4 of your own team's four turnovers almost in a row on those drives.

    1. Points Allowed

    2 Turnovers Created

    3 Third Down D

    I think those 3 rings in that order are how you rank a quality D.

    I'd put yards allowed 4th, whether it be rushing or passing allowed. I still think rush D is more important than pass D, too.

     

     




    Rush D is more important than pass D?  Are you daft?  You do know that  teams gain more yards while passing as apposed to running right?  You know you have to go the length of the field to score right?  Well those little white lines on the field are yards.  You have to pass 10 of them to keep playing.

    The best measure of a D is 3rd down efficiency.  Picks and fumbles can aid in that but are not the biggest factor.  Stopping 3rd downs is.

    A D's job is to (BOTH) prevent scoring and to get the ball back to the O.

    The way to do (BOTH) effectively is to stop 3rd downs.

    When you stop 3rd downs efficiently, both scoring is stopped and you get the ball back to your O., at the same time.  3 & outs are huge.  That means you did your job (BOTH)

    Yards are a measure of poor 3rd down efficiency.  That is why they are used. Yards are a measure of a good or poor offense too.  It makes perfect sense that both sides of the ball are measured by them.  It's just not the D.  You can't have one without the other.

    IF the O is gaining a ton of yards that means the opposing D is giving up the same.

    Having a decent RED zone D only accomplishes HALF the task.  They are not getting the ball back to the O efficiently.  The O can't score without the ball and have less opportunities to do so with the D taking too long to get off the field with too many 3rd downs.

    10 plays per drive @ 10 yards per play ='s 100 yards, several minutes off the clock, 3 additional 1st downs, and a td.

    3 downs per drive ='s < than 10 yards, the ball back in seconds and no score.

    When you are giving up too many 3rd downs. you are giving up yards and time.

    The Pats 3rd down efficiency has been beyond pathetic for years.

    The Pats yards per game have been beyond pathetic for years.

    Teams would score much less against the D if they would stop giving up freaken 3rd downs  on 45% of their plays and all the yards and time off the clock that go with them.

    The O could also score more if the D would STOP GIVING UP SO MANY 3RD downs and the yards and time off the clock that go with them. SB 42 & 46.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    "The most important stat is turnovers (besides points)." Phill Simms 1 minute ago national tv



    It has always been this way, the only thing different is perception.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    Too bad the future of defenses couldn't be measured by balls being thrown over corners heads while they are clueless it is happening. Or if only there was a new formula that could measure the distance between two safeties as a happy receiver catches balls for touchdowns unscathed. When they rank defenses this way, we'll finally be considered "rebuilt".

     

     



    Please stop. McCourty was ALL PRO as a rookie CB. Talib is very good, as Dennard with what he has shown.

     

    Stop acting like our D is so bad and has no talent. It's so old.  Seriously.  Everyone is tired of your act.  You've been mocking BB, the entire staff, the scouts, etc, for 3 years.  Do you realize how sad that looks? You teach kids how to bake cakes. Just stop.



    Relax, it was a joke. I just figured the thread was headed in it's usual direction with you involved...Brady bashing, name calling, etc. By the way, what is it with the home ec teacher thing with you? I don't teach cooking. LOL!

    This what I think of the defense...this is my honest opinion.

    I think Belichick hit it right with the selection of Jones, I'm not sure about Hightower, I like Collins, I like the Kelly signing (and more importantly I like how he is playing). The key to the defense and I think our success overrall is Talib and Dennard being on the field at the same time - these guys are real secondary talents, not the trash we have rolled out there over the last 5 years. These guys get it, they can play...as for the rest of the secodary? Not very good. I will withold judgment on McCourty - I thought he looked good at safety - I don't think he can play corner and it's very very early in his safety career to call this thing a lock.

    I like the size of our linebackers, I think they all play well going in a forward direction, but I think they all play poorly going backwards. And that is a problem - the game today requires these guys to go backwards too much...these guys can't. I like Collins, he looks like in time he may be able to do both, but that's not this season.

    I think it's extremely discouraging that we spent more time and resources trying to improve our safety position and it looks as bad as it ever has. I've seen enough of T. Wilson to think he is nothing but a backup. I've seen this kid Harmon play a lot like T. Wilson, but at least he deserves more time. I haven't seen a lot of A. Wilson, but in the little I've seen I think he is going to be a target in coverage and I'm not sure he is going to help us much up front. I'm almost starting to think Arrington should get a shot at safety, at least the guy is built like one, has experience in coverage and likes to hit. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Inokea4coolaid. Show Inokea4coolaid's posts

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    second stupidest post ever. The stupidest one is that it was only Brady's fault for the two SB losses that Patriots were in. Oh, that was you too.

    Current stats are accurrate.  They say that the Pats have a much below average pass defense, an above average rush defense, above avg. pts. against, a very good takeaway/giveaway ratio.

    I see you have no real alternative and your just being a troll and hypocrite again

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re:

    A defense has two primary jobs:

     

    • Keep the other team from scoring
    • Protect field position 

    Points given up measures the first and yards given up measures (albeit imperfectly) the second.  That's why these two stats are the most widely used means of evaluating a defense's quality.  Turnovers are great things for a defense to create because they tend both to prevent the other team from scoring and to protect field position (the opponent's offensive drive is aborted and the ball returned to one's own offense, often with excellent field position--or, even better, the defense scores itself).     The problem with using turnovers as a stat to measure a defense's quality, however, is that (1) the sample size with turnovers is too small to be statistically meaningful and (2) they miss what the defense is called upon to do the most, which is simply stop drives before the other team either scores or gets the field position advantage.    Yards given up is not a perfect stat, but it tends to capture the defense's ability to control field position.  I like to look at that stat along with first downs given up and third down percentage.  Together those give a pretty good picture of a team's ability to control field position.  For scoring, points given up by the defense (ignoring points given up by the offense or special teams) is a good measure.  I also like to look at number of TDs given up by the defense since giving up a TD is generally the defense's worse failure.  

    While forcing a fumble or getting an interception is usually the best way for a defense to end a drive, I don't think you can use those turnovers as the primary measure of a defense's success because they are relatively rare events.  Maybe more impressive is a defense that can consistently keep its opponents from getting more than two first downs and about 25 yards on a drive and that rarely gives up more than one or two TDs a game. 

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    They did in the AFC title game in 2011.



    Hey, zip it cherry picker.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re:

    For me, important stats (outside of the obvious points):

     

    1. Passing defense. Unless you have AP on your team, most large comebacks are usually led by the QB and the passing attack. How you play against the pass in my opinion the most important defensive stat. It has an obvious correlation with getting out off the field in third and long situations and preventing quick strike scores. I don't care if it's great coverage or a great pass rush or some combination of the two...a passing d is super important. Frustrate the QB and good things will follow!

    2. Turnovers. Only way to really make up for a poor D. Turnover battle usually wins the game. But when you're playing against a hot team or an elite QB, you cant rely on being an opportunistic defense.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    For me, important stats (outside of the obvious points):

     

    1. Passing defense. Unless you have AP on your team, most large comebacks are usually led by the QB and the passing attack. How you play against the pass in my opinion the most important defensive stat. It has an obvious correlation with getting out off the field in third and long situations and preventing quick strike scores. I don't care if it's great coverage or a great pass rush or some combination of the two...a passing d is super important. Frustrate the QB and good things will follow!

    2. Turnovers. Only way to really make up for a poor D. Turnover battle usually wins the game. But when you're playing against a hot team or an elite QB, you cant rely on being an opportunistic defense.

     




    ding ding ding ding!!!  we have a winner folks!

    come on up and claim your prize: a life size Eli Manning cut-out...autographed!!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re:

    First and ten on any particular field position is worth, in theory, a certain number of points.  A defensive rating should be based on:

    1.  On what yard line did the offense originally set up?  How many points is that, in theory, for the offense?

    2.  How many points did the offense score?  7, 3, or 0?  If 3, was it a risky 3 or a chip shot?

    3.  Did the defense score 2 points or 7 points on a pick-6 or fumble rumble? 

    4.  At the end of the drive, on what yard line did the defense set its own offense up, or did the opponent's offense get set up on about their own 25 yard line?  How many points is that? 

    We must assume the average results of normal punting on fourth down, normal field goal percentages across the nfl and no kickoff runbacks, so that we don't push special teams goofups or triumphs into the defense's statistics.

    Based on these four numbers, find the average number of points that the defense gave up per drive.  That number will accurately define a good or a bad defense. 

     
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