What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    We've gotten away from Brady's strongest attribute, Play-Action.
    Shot-gun formations, especially Open Backfield tells Defense its going to be a quick pass. With the Open Backfield do what the Jets did a couple of years ago, Play physical on Wide-outs, and Blitz big time against Brady. He's not mobile like an Elway, where he adds a dimension, where Defense has to worry about him running on a broken play, or one that the timing is disrupted.
    Get away from the Slot Reciever Offense, hasn't worked. In fact tells a smart Defensive Coordinator, what the Pats do in tough situations. Easier to predict.
    Need to get RB's more involved in passing game, more people involved, harder to Defend.
    Stick with the running game, even if it's not having great averages on YPC. Does 3 things, helps in Play-action, where you can throw deeper patterns, you have extra blocker in RB on blitzes, and finally gets the O-Line, tougher, they start doing the beating on running plays.
    Dont take Shot-gun out completely, times in the game where you'll need it, but tone it DOWN.
    For me 70% under Center will do it for me.
    There has to be a reason why we've gotten into a Shot-gun mode for a while now. I'm wondering if Brady's knee, is not hurt more that we think? Tougher for him to get under Center, and use the Play-Action? Brady is one of the Smartest QB's there is, he knows the Play-Action, was his strongest attribute.
    Just a thought, dont know.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    The types of quick passes the Pats' offense now relies on so heavily are best run out of shotgun, which is why we're in it so much.  Under center is better for running plays and slower developing stuff, but it's not as good for the 2 second passes to Welker we've used so much. I haven't seen the statistics recently, but I believe that even with the heavy use of the shotgun the Pats still are under center on more than half their plays.

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    The types of quick passes the Pats' offense now relies on so heavily are best run out of shotgun, which is why we're in it so much.  Under center is better for running plays and slower developing stuff, but it's not as good for the 2 second passes to Welker we've used so much. I haven't seen the statistics recently, but I believe that even with the heavy use of the shotgun the Pats still are under center on more than half their plays.

     



    My question is why they need to resort to quick passes all the time. If the OL is as great as everyone says it is, shouldn't TB be able to rely on them giving him more time to find the open guy?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    Good discussion going and there are many things about how this offense performs as noted in TFB's orginal post.  But, let me take the liberty of a different track.... 

    First - hind sight is always 20/20.  The Patriots have played some real good defenses and have run roughshod over them and we nary get a peep on this site, especially from Rusty when Brady shreds an excellent D.  So, what do we have here?

    Could part of the problem be the Pats stick too much with what has done good before?  Keep in mind, every play called is EXPECTED to work and we have seen many of these same calls go big.  As noted by many here, too, what we have seen is the unexplained drop or poor execution in games where we expected the Pats to "step up".  It is one thing for the opponents D to get the better of the play, which one can expect from an elite D, but, the Pats have an elite O and you would think it would all balance out.  We have seen the O get the better of an elite D for a portion of a game then it drops off the face of the earth.  Like we saw in the AFCCG this past season.  Again, hindsight is 20/20 and it is so easy to re-hash the coulda-woulda-shoulda's of all these numbing losses in the playoffs when you think that is the time for a BB coached team to shine.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    There was a game 2 years ago, it was the last game or 1 before that at end of season. Against Miami, Head Coach just got fired interim Coach (Forgot his name), called a great 1st half, they blitzed Brady on almost every play, from all directions, LB,S,CB.
    We scored no TD's maybe a FG, and the Offense got booed off the field.
    Second half, Coach Stopped Blitzing, we got  2 big interceptions, and I think we scored 37 points.
    Now in the 1st half they shut us out. And that was not an elite Defense.
    At Home.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    What I would like to see:

    How about coming up with a bunch of run plays out of the shotgun? I have no problem with the shotgun, but how about disguising our play calling some? Run the same formations for pass & run, so the defense doesn't know what's coming. Switch things up....run from the shotgun, and pass from centter with two RBs behind you. Keep the defense guessing....

    Have some back-up plans for each team/scenario. I'm sure to a degree they already have back-up plays and schemes in place...but how many times are they actually using them? If you are failing at certain plays and formations, it's time to come out in the 2nd half with something they haven't seen yet....or are ready for. Not trick plays, but going against the grain of calling plays you normally would. Is it really that hard to design plays in either the shotgun or under center that do the same thing?

    At first I was not happy with losing Welker, but have come around to realize that sometimes change is needed to be successful. Maybe by losing both Welker &  Lloyd, Brady looks for the "open guy" a little more than relying on his usual comforts. We have plenty of talent for him to play with this year.

    Let these young running backs do their thing. More screens, short dump passes when receivers are covered....whatever. Ridley & Vereen have big talent, and I would love to see even more of it.

    Keep trying to upgrade this OL. The game of football is won in the trenches....period. You can blame whoever you want for SB42....but our OL sucked donkey balls. You can't run or pass without solid blocking....this should be addressed in every draft.

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    More run plays out of the shotgun?  Why?  It doesn't work, dude. I might work later in the game if the RB isn't subbed on and off all game long (generally speaking).

     

     




    It doesn't work?

     

    Care to back that up with FACTS?

    Please show us all (with FACTS, not LIES) that the Pat's O scores more points, gets more 1st downs, moves the ball better, with TB under center.

    If not, your premise that "it doesn't work" and it is the root of all evil, is just another one of your whoppers!

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    We've gotten away from Brady's strongest attribute, Play-Action.
    Shot-gun formations, especially Open Backfield tells Defense its going to be a quick pass. With the Open Backfield do what the Jets did a couple of years ago, Play physical on Wide-outs, and Blitz big time against Brady. He's not mobile like an Elway, where he adds a dimension, where Defense has to worry about him running on a broken play, or one that the timing is disrupted.
    Get away from the Slot Reciever Offense, hasn't worked. In fact tells a smart Defensive Coordinator, what the Pats do in tough situations. Easier to predict.
    Need to get RB's more involved in passing game, more people involved, harder to Defend.
    Stick with the running game, even if it's not having great averages on YPC. Does 3 things, helps in Play-action, where you can throw deeper patterns, you have extra blocker in RB on blitzes, and finally gets the O-Line, tougher, they start doing the beating on running plays.
    Dont take Shot-gun out completely, times in the game where you'll need it, but tone it DOWN.
    For me 70% under Center will do it for me.
    There has to be a reason why we've gotten into a Shot-gun mode for a while now. I'm wondering if Brady's knee, is not hurt more that we think? Tougher for him to get under Center, and use the Play-Action? Brady is one of the Smartest QB's there is, he knows the Play-Action, was his strongest attribute.
    Just a thought, dont know.

     




    hey russ

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    Excellent thread.

    In 42, it boiled down to 2 things IMO:

    *The Giants defensive game plan was excellent and their defensive line play was as good as I've seen in a big game in the FA era;

    *A couple of plays: one made by the Giants and one not made by the Pats.  Tyree catch (I still shake my head at that one) and Samuel's blown int.

    I think Prolate made a very strong case in another thread about how talented defenses take away certain things from the Pats that only talented teams can take away.  If I read his post correctly it boiled down to excellent man coverage on the wideouts, taking away the middle of the field and pressuring Brady.  I agreed then and still do that a wideout who can stretch the field would have helped.

    In last season's AFCG the team simply didn't play consistently particularly on offense.  That coupled with the Ravens bringing their A game made for a tough game for the Pats.

    Finally, I think, for some reason, there seems to be a reluctance or inability to make the proper adjustments late in games.  Why, I'm not sure.  Who is this on?  I can't give credit to BB for much of the team's success over the long haul without placing much of the responsibility for lack of adjustments on him.  I think was particularly the case in 42 where in my opinion Coughlin outcoached him. 

     




    I don't think it's not knowing how to adjust. The greatest coach of all time who is the master of adjusting on the fly, forgot?

     

    No.

    I hate to say it, but it's ego.  That's what it is.  It's them thinking that at some point, the shotgun spread is going to bust loose and overwhelm and the other team's D will break.

    The fact is, it's too late if you switch to some run based atttack, say in the late 3rd qtr when you try to flip a switch. It worked in the 2007 AFC title game, but if you remember that game, it almost appeared like NE was completely outplayed in the game after Brady's passing obsession and 3 INTs.

    They then just handed it off to Maroney like 10 times in a row in the 4th qtr and it wore SD down.

    I think they simply lost focus of basic, bare bones football plays and have over-thought much of this to the point it looks like BB is outcoached. He's not outcoached at all. Tyree's catch is not BB being outcoached.

    I felt in the second half of SB 46, the Pats DOMINATED the Giants. They GIants couldn't run, couldn't make any big plays, and only settled for 2 FGs.

    Our offense started slow and finished slow and it's the offense Brady prefers to run.  It just is.  If you want to string up our coach for deferring to what his QB feels more comfortable using, fine. I will be right there with you seeing it as a mistake.  But, I can also understand why he wants the QB comfortable.

    Brady tossing an INT or throwing high to ice the game is not being "outcoached".

    As for SB 42, I could have told you what the Giants D was going to do because Jim Johnson's Eagles did it in December of 2007, Balt tried it, then the Giants. Then, the GIants just executed so well in SB 42, they pulled it off.

    I think in SB 42, Brady wanted to put on a fireworks display and before you knew it, it was the 4th qtr and NE was down 10-7 instead.

     




    I don't think it's not knowing how to adjust. The greatest coach of all time who is the master of adjusting on the fly, forgot?

     

    why not? since he has little to no control over his own QB going on 5 years now why wouldn't he simply forget?

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to alfred-e-bob-neumier's comment:

     

    If they committed to the run in a serious fashion and went fully back to letting TB find the open man in an offense not built around one or two receivers exclusively much like they did when they won 3 of 4 SB's, the rest of the league would take half a season to fully prepare to stop them...by then the Eastern Division would likely be won and they'd probably have best record heading into the playoffs.

     




    Exactly.  They don't do it anymore and people say "our WRs aren't any good", which is total baloney.

     

    Branch was very good in 2010. He was good in 2011.  He fell off in 2012.

    Ochocinco was not really used in 2011. Meanwhile, Lloyd was good in 2012 and could have been better if we didn't use the shotgun so frequently.

    Almost every freaking game it's the let's hit Welker, Gronk or Hern and let's use our run game as a faux part of our gameplan or, let's try to establish a run out of the shotgun, which obviously is flawed.

    So, they're catering to the formations which enhance the skills of Welker, Gronk and Hern, but actually weakens the skills of our  and Z WRs.

    I would not even use the shotgun in the AFC title game or SB again unless we are trailing. That's really when it should be used as a base. Like in the SF game where we turned it over 4 times, almost in a row, in our zone?  No problem. You have no choice there.  Focus and bare down and execute, because you won't get back in the game using too much clock with runs, etc.

    I sometimes feel like I am speaking with brand new fans of the game or kids who just started watching the game in 2007 and the finesse spread plays are all they know.




    just like I feel u Gen-X 30-somethings were a pretty useless bunch of phonies and whiners

    Smile

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    More run plays out of the shotgun?  Why?  It doesn't work, dude. I might work later in the game if the RB isn't subbed on and off all game long (generally speaking).

     

     




    It doesn't work?

     

    Care to back that up with FACTS?

    Please show us all (with FACTS, not LIES) that the Pat's O scores more points, gets more 1st downs, moves the ball better, with TB under center.

    If not, your premise that "it doesn't work" and it is the root of all evil, is just another one of your whoppers!

     



    Fact:

     

    We never lost a game with BJGE as lead back. BJGE was rarely, if ever used in the shotgun spread.

    Enjoy!

    Too easy.

    lmao

     




    SB 46!  He was the lead back.  Fact!

    You have done nothing to back your premise that the SG doesn't work.  Please go tell your lies to the judge.  They don't belong here.

     

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from glenr. Show glenr's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    The flaw? Brady can't move away if the pocket collapses so he gets scared and needs to get rid of the ball within 2 seconds. All a D has to is cover the receivers for that long.

     
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