What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    The point I was trying to make, was that whatever formation they use, they need to be a lot less predictable. Everytime Woodhead came in, and Ridley out, it was a pass or draw. There is no way that the smurf can block better than Ridley....NFW!!

    Bottom line is that I honestly don't care what formation they use because the actual formation isn't what I see as the problem. The problem is not disguising their plays. If they have 10 running plays and 10 passing plays for one single shotgun spread, with the same personell on the field, wouldn't it be tougher as a defense to figure out what's coming?

    How about 2 RB's next to Brady in the shotgun? 1 to block, and 1 to be a dump off if the rceivers are covered. How about the same formation with some off tackle runs? When TB is under center, they seem to have more options to fool the defense. Why can't this be done with all of their formations? Use some creativity.

    They have the talent......more screens, more power runs (with a fullback leading)....more play action fakes after running out of the shotgun. I could not be happier that the smurf is gone. As good as he was on certain plays, when he came in, the plays were predictable. Keep Ridley in there, and mix it up.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to tanbass' comment:

    There is no way that the smurf can block better than Ridley....NFW!!



    Woodhead was an excellent pass blocker.  Whatever he lacked in size he made up for with near impeccable technique.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

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    More run plays out of the shotgun?  Why?  It doesn't work, dude. I might work later in the game if the RB isn't subbed on and off all game long (generally speaking).

     

     




    It doesn't work?

     

    Care to back that up with FACTS?

    Please show us all (with FACTS, not LIES) that the Pat's O scores more points, gets more 1st downs, moves the ball better, with TB under center.

    If not, your premise that "it doesn't work" and it is the root of all evil, is just another one of your whoppers!

     



    Fact:

     

    We never lost a game with BJGE as lead back. BJGE was rarely, if ever used in the shotgun spread.

    Enjoy!

    Too easy.

    lmao

     




    SB 46!  He was the lead back.  Fact!

    You have done nothing to back your premise that the SG doesn't work.  Please go tell your lies to the judge.  They don't belong here.

     

     




    No, he wasn't. He only had 9 carries. I think Woodhead had 7 or 8. That's way too close of a split to claim he was the lead back. That's ridiculous and proves further you don't know the game.

     




    Ummm, yes he was.  He had the most carries and the next highest was BRADY.

    I don't care how many he had, he was the lead, in fact limited possessions tend to limit rushing, UNLESS you are the team that is trying to limit possessions, then it benefits them

    You've been proven wrong on this umteenmillion times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie>  Why?  Why do you have to lie so much whopper boy?

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    Woodhead was an excellent pass blocker.  Whatever he lacked in size he made up for with near impeccable technique.

     



    I hear you, but I have seen linebackers just bowl over him like a toy at times. I used to freak out when they tried running him off tackle while Ridley sat on the bench...made no sense. Was never a Woody fan....although the kid had heart.

    They need to teach Ridley how to block...or Vereen. I don't care. But keep these talented backs in the game. No reason they can't be taught to pick up the blitz. if these guys are in the game, the threat to run is there. When they Marched Woody in, the D knew what was coming.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    Have they played an elite defense recently? They looked lousy in the last couple playoff losses against decidedly mediocre defenses, so this can't be about those games. Don't tell me you think the 27th ranked NYG or the 17th ranked Ravens were elite? Hardly.

    They looked lousy in 2010 against the Jets in a postseason loss, a Jets defense that they destroyed a few weeks earlier, so we can't be talking about them, can we?

    In '09, they just weren't very good and they lost their best receiver to injury the week before.

    This is not about some flaw, at least not as I see it. It's about showing up unprepared to some extent, and the other team making better adjustments and bigger plays.  It's about a few plays here and there. Gronk getting hurt the last two years didn't help. I think they win the '11 SB if he's healthy, and last year they'd have kept it a lot closer with him. They certainly wouldn't have been so reliant on 83 to make every big play.

     

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Have they played an elite defense recently? They looked lousy in the last couple playoff losses against decidedly mediocre defenses, so this can't be about those games. Don't tell me you think the 27th ranked NYG or the 17th ranked Ravens were elite? Hardly.

    They looked lousy in 2010 against the Jets in a postseason loss, a Jets defense that they destroyed a few weeks earlier, so we can't be talking about them, can we?

    In '09, they just weren't very good and they lost their best receiver to injury the week before.

    This is not about some flaw, at least not as I see it. It's about showing up unprepared to some extent, and the other team making better adjustments and bigger plays.  It's about a few plays here and there. Gronk getting hurt the last two years didn't help. I think they win the '11 SB if he's healthy, and last year they'd have kept it a lot closer with him. They certainly wouldn't have been so reliant on 83 to make every big play.

     

     



    What is the pattern in those games? Too much shotgun, no run game established, 40+ passes and a blown lead with way too few points scored anyway.

     

    13 or 14 points ain't cutting it.   Even the Jets loss in 2010 had us score later in the game, bu the game was already over because we had wasted so much time forcing our finesse shotgun spread and subbing the backs in and out.

    They panicked in that one. 



    I agree, unprepared. Gameplanning, in game adjustments and execution all lacking. Hard to explain, but it seems to happen somewhat frequently in January/February. Still say Gronk would have helped immensely.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    The types of quick passes the Pats' offense now relies on so heavily are best run out of shotgun, which is why we're in it so much.  Under center is better for running plays and slower developing stuff, but it's not as good for the 2 second passes to Welker we've used so much. I haven't seen the statistics recently, but I believe that even with the heavy use of the shotgun the Pats still are under center on more than half their plays.

     

     



    My question is why they need to resort to quick passes all the time. If the OL is as great as everyone says it is, shouldn't TB be able to rely on them giving him more time to find the open guy?

     




    Part of the problem is they've had few receivers who can get separation on longer patterns.  Even if the line holds, it makes no difference if no one really gets open.  Lloyd was a bit better last year than Branch the year before, but since Moss left, they've had no effective outside WR. 

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to tanbass' comment:

     

    There is no way that the smurf can block better than Ridley....NFW!!

     



    Woodhead was an excellent pass blocker.  Whatever he lacked in size he made up for with near impeccable technique.

     

     



    Woodhead also was a much better receiver than Ridley and not a bad runner, particularly from the shotgun. He was in because he complemented the types of plays they were running better than Ridley.  

     

    I just don't buy the arguments that the team is poorly coached, either unprepared for games or prone to poor game planning or poor play calling or poor utilization of players (too much subbing, wrong players on the field). In my opinion those are its strengths not its weaknesses.  I think it's actually how they win so much with such an incomplete group of players.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    It's simple! All we need to do is get Belichick to take hold of this team once again and get Brady under center, then OUR OWN safeties will learn how to play defense and control the third down situation.  You see, by getting Brady under center and having him hand off to average running backs will open up play action, of course it will take ten minutes for defenses to figure out that we are play actioning and they will put an end to an offensive technique that is only supposed to be used a small percentage of the time. Then our safeties (guys like Chung...when we had that future hall of famer) will get the opportunity to be on the field much much longer and thus...improve!

    It's simple folks! All we need is our 35 year old Hall of Fame QB turning his back to the defense...faking a hand off and then firing it to one guy. I mean yeah, that one guy will soon be figured out soon enough...and sooner rather than later the defense will begin to drop more guys in one area to defend it, but it worked like hot cakes 10 years ago when we could run the ball. And yeah it might be a problem if our run game stalls - because we don't have a defense that will get off the field and keep things close most weeks - but that is only a small little fact (and can be easily ignored). 

    Truthfully it's just Brady's fault...the guy is spoiled and plays like Jay Cutler and I'm not talking about Jay Cutler the football player, but Jay Cutler the bodybuilder. Yeah ever since Brady has been doing dem steroids he's lost touch with reality. Plus look at the amount of red meat he now consumes...how much of that stuff is hanging around in his colon nowadays? That's probably part of the reason he's in shotgun so much...the undigested red meat is slowing him down. Guy should hire a nutritionalist...cheap SOB. And the only reason he throws for 5k yards every year is because of those under Armour shirts he wears, it's practically cheating. We have a lousy, no good cheater for a QB and he is ruining this team. There's a bird flu part two coming across the ocean and you know who's fault it is? You guessed it, Tom Brady in the shotgun.

    Shotgun!

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to tanbass' comment:

     

    There is no way that the smurf can block better than Ridley....NFW!!

     



    Woodhead was an excellent pass blocker.  Whatever he lacked in size he made up for with near impeccable technique.

     

     



    Woodhead also was a much better receiver than Ridley and not a bad runner, particularly from the shotgun. He was in because he complemented the types of plays they were running better than Ridley.  

     

    I just don't buy the arguments that the team is poorly coached, either unprepared for games or prone to poor game planning or poor play calling or poor utilixation of players.  In my opinion those are its strengths not its weaknesses.  I think it's actually how they win so much with such an incomplete group of players.

     



    Fine, then how do they dominate a better Texans team, scoring almost at will for much of the game and then get completely shut down by Baltimore. Please don't tell me Baltimore is that much better than Houston, I'm not buying. Neither were the Giants the year before, they were an average defense, and I'm being charitable. It would be one thing if they struggled to score points all year, but as I recall they scored the second most points in NFL history! A historically great offense that became inept at the biggest moment. What is that? Poor coaching and lousy execution as far as I can tell.

     

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:


    Fine, then how do they dominate a better Texans team, scoring almost at will for much of the game and then get completely shut down by Baltimore.



    The Ravens had a real defensive gameplan and they match up better.  Wade blitzes too much and Brady owns the blitz.  The Ravens played nickel all game and still shut down the running game and managed to get some pressure.  Without Gronk our TEs were overmatched in run blocking.  That is how you stop this offense.

     

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

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    Your comments suggest that the O line may not be as good as people think.  That's almost sacrilegeous to say in these parts where Scarnecchia is viewed as nearly divine, but I suspect there may be some truth to it.  Against the Giants in both losing Super Bowls, the O line struggled with an elite D line.  Injuries were part of the reason for that, but certainly there were be some talent issues too, especially in 2007 when Kaczur and Hochstein were starting.  

    Recently, I think the offense has suffered from a lack of weapons (this wasn't so much the case in 2007, though the running game was maybe not as good as ideal).  Gronk and Welker are both great at what they do, but Gronk has been a no-show in the post season. Hernandez, for all his skills, is inconsistent with a tendency to drop balls.  BJGE and Woodhead are not impact players.  Ridley has more explosiveness, but he's been prone to fumble in the playoffs.  Overall, the offense has really needed to run through Gronk and Welker or it becomes very pedestrian.  Guys like Branch and Ocho and Edelman are just not scaring defenders.  

    On defense, the issue has been pass defense .  .  . no rush, LBs who aren't great dropping back, and a very weak secondary.  I do think the defense is on the upswing and will be better this year.  But the past four years or so it hasn't been very good and almost requires an offensive strategy designed to rack up points to compensate for the defense's tendency to give up points. 

     



    Ridley has not been "prone" to fumbled in the playoffs. He got whacked in the head and was unconcious.

     

    I don't consider that "prone" to fumbling.

    Don't look now, but you're doing what CSylvia didn't want and that is pointig fingers towards the players you rave about all year for fantasy points and big scores against weak or bad Ds as you sit at Gillette, only to wonder why it doesn't work in the postseason with Brady preferring a certain offense with Welker.

    It's very, very simple: Welker was not the same player in a non-shotgun formation.  Hence, why we used it so much.   Brady also prefers it because he said he did. If I need to email WEEI for them to pull that transcript for me, I will.  It's getting very tiring watching fans like yourself deflect over and over.

    You'd be laughed out of the bar if 95% of NFL fans heard you say "Brady does't have enough talent around him".

    That's flat out false.  Brady does not need to have an All Pro at every single position. 

    CSylvia's thread focus is about the conceptual elements of the offensive approach, not for you to try to deflect with the "talent" argument. Since 2010, there has been no "talent" issue here on this offense.

    You also started talking about our defense. If Gronk is down in SB 46 or this past year's AFC title game, I can easily counter by sayign we didn't have Andre Carter or Talib and Jones.

    None of these injuries really answer why, over a 5+ year span, our finesse offense failed.

    Any fan of any team can point to an important injury or two as a reason why their team struggled or lost.  That's not the topic.

     



    Should probably have said prone to late season fumbles, since I was thinking pre-playoffs more than in playoffs.  Fumbles were probably why he didn't play in the SB in 2011.  Fumbling cropped up again against SF in December this year. All backs fumble, but still BB seems to show particularly low tolerance for it.

     

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    The types of quick passes the Pats' offense now relies on so heavily are best run out of shotgun, which is why we're in it so much.  Under center is better for running plays and slower developing stuff, but it's not as good for the 2 second passes to Welker we've used so much. I haven't seen the statistics recently, but I believe that even with the heavy use of the shotgun the Pats still are under center on more than half their plays.

     

     



    My question is why they need to resort to quick passes all the time. If the OL is as great as everyone says it is, shouldn't TB be able to rely on them giving him more time to find the open guy?

     

     




     

    Part of the problem is they've had few receivers who can get separation on longer patterns.  Even if the line holds, it makes no difference if no one really gets open.  Lloyd was a bit better last year than Branch the year before, but since Moss left, they've had no effective outside WR. 



    Maybe... I do not think...

    1) That is completely true. TB has to se the receiver get open (and there have been) and he still has to throw the ball well. Eli's throw to Manningham was not much of separation... not much more than TB's receivers are able to get.

    2) The whole playoff impotence can be attributed to that 

    3) TB can wait long to throw before he gets sacked

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

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    More run plays out of the shotgun?  Why?  It doesn't work, dude. I might work later in the game if the RB isn't subbed on and off all game long (generally speaking).

     

     




    It doesn't work?

     

    Care to back that up with FACTS?

    Please show us all (with FACTS, not LIES) that the Pat's O scores more points, gets more 1st downs, moves the ball better, with TB under center.

    If not, your premise that "it doesn't work" and it is the root of all evil, is just another one of your whoppers!

     



    Fact:

     

    We never lost a game with BJGE as lead back. BJGE was rarely, if ever used in the shotgun spread.

    Enjoy!

    Too easy.

    lmao

     




    SB 46!  He was the lead back.  Fact!

    You have done nothing to back your premise that the SG doesn't work.  Please go tell your lies to the judge.  They don't belong here.

     

     




    No, he wasn't. He only had 9 carries. I think Woodhead had 7 or 8. That's way too close of a split to claim he was the lead back. That's ridiculous and proves further you don't know the game.

     

     




    Ummm, yes he was.  He had the most carries and the next highest was BRADY.

     

    I don't care how many he had, he was the lead, in fact limited possessions tend to limit rushing, UNLESS you are the team that is trying to limit possessions, then it benefits them

    You've been proven wrong on this umteenmillion times, yet you insist on repeating the same lie>  Why?  Why do you have to lie so much whopper boy?

     




    Umm, NO.

     

    BJGE had a total of 10, 9 before our last predicable attempt when they tried to make it seem like they established the run with him in the 3rd or 4th qtr of that game.

    Woodhead had 7 carries.   10 and 7 are too close where there is no distinctive lead back. So, you lie and you lose. As usual.

    Woodhead should not have been on the field again once NE went up 17-9 and he was. That's your ballgame, obviously.  It would be no different when or if we had used too much Faulk back in the day with a lead.  

    Sb 38 comes to mind. Antowain Smith 26 carries, 126 yards = win.

    Meanwhile, Bradhshaw for NY, had 17 carries which is more reprsentative of a feature back.

    Exposed with ease. It's not about box score quantities, either. It's about the balance. Brady ended up with what, 46 passes with  a lead?  46 passes, 10 runs from a lead back?  LMAO

    That's horrendous.

     




    Looks like the lead to me and the world.  I just told you running the ball with limited possessions would benefit the team that was trying to control the clock and limit possessions.  It would not benefit a team trying to score quickly  in order to counter the lower possessions.  It's a reactive move to an undesirable situation.

     

    Most teams run the ball more when they are winning and trying to eat clock,  provided they don't have a D that allows scoring on 75% of the drives in the second half. 

    They tried the ball control thing in the 4th with  a 6 minute drive and it didn't work.  The defense countered with another 4-5 minutes of not leaving the field.  that's almost 11 minutes for one full possession in the second half, which left  time for 3 quick ones. 

    Not good!  Very difficult to score on 3 quick possessions, especially when the D knows exactly that and pins their ears back.  Wish the Pat's D would have pinned their ears back for once.  Pfft

    Still waiting for you to back up the fact that the SG doesn't work, with facts.

    I guess you'd just prefer to tell whoppers, instead.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Have they played an elite defense recently? They looked lousy in the last couple playoff losses against decidedly mediocre defenses, so this can't be about those games. Don't tell me you think the 27th ranked NYG or the 17th ranked Ravens were elite? Hardly.

    They looked lousy in 2010 against the Jets in a postseason loss, a Jets defense that they destroyed a few weeks earlier, so we can't be talking about them, can we?

    In '09, they just weren't very good and they lost their best receiver to injury the week before.

    This is not about some flaw, at least not as I see it. It's about showing up unprepared to some extent, and the other team making better adjustments and bigger plays.  It's about a few plays here and there. Gronk getting hurt the last two years didn't help. I think they win the '11 SB if he's healthy, and last year they'd have kept it a lot closer with him. They certainly wouldn't have been so reliant on 83 to make every big play.

     



    Sort of what I tried to post. And I agree, though I also think to some degree you have to give the opponent credit too. Both teams come in with a plan, both teams make numerous adjustments on the fly and44 starters try to play their best football. Injuries, nicks and scratches take their toll and sometime things snowball for one side or the other.

     

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    Splitting carries between two guys means we leaned on one lead back?  You just aren;t very bright are you?

    Barring the last obligatory BJGE carry which would predictably be stopped for no gain, he had 9 carries and Woodhead, 7.

    For all intents and purposes, we had no lead back in SB 46 and using too much Woodhead in the second half proved detrimental, just like it did in the AFC title game we almost blew the game before.

    BJGE had 8 carries for 50 yards at half and Brady wanted to use more shotgun, which meant more Woodhead.

    Another INT and almost blowing another lead, yet again.

    The pattern remains and no matter how much you try to deflect and spin, you can't change the patterns.

     




    They always split carries and that doesn't mean there is no lead back.  The one with the most carries  and used most often, is the lead..  Woody is the best player for those formations because he can pass and run.  That makes it less predictable because they do run from the SG too.  I'd have to double check, but from memory,most of his plays when he was in as the back were passing but not all.  Why are you going to put ridley or BJGe in when they can't catch other than an extra blocker, which Woody was also much better at?

    It's embarrassing to have to explain this to a person with a supposed 152 IQ and who's been playing FB since in diapers.  Hint: those brown funny shaped things in your diapers, probably weren't footballs.

    Brady does not send out the personnel, the coaches do.  He calls the plays accordingly, with the players he has. PERIOD!

    It's also embarrassing to have to explain that one.  I have never once seen him stand there yelling to coach to send woody in so he could run shotgun.  NEVER!

    Stop embarrassing yourself!

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

     


    Fine, then how do they dominate a better Texans team, scoring almost at will for much of the game and then get completely shut down by Baltimore.

     

     



    The Ravens had a real defensive gameplan and they match up better.  Wade blitzes too much and Brady owns the blitz.  The Ravens played nickel all game and still shut down the running game and managed to get some pressure.  Without Gronk our TEs were overmatched in run blocking.  That is how you stop this offense.

     



    We also can't ignore an absolute beatdown received at home from SF and two lacklustre December performances against the Dolphins (first game) and against Jax.  These games showed some of the flaws we saw against Balt.

     

     
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