What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to csylvia79's comment:

                  First off I want to say I am not trying to directly call anyone out or do any type of name calling. Please if you are going to reply with a flame or troll post, just don’t bother.  I would love to encourage an open dialog concerning the Patriots weaknesses and what could be the cause.   I also will try to answer my own questions but I would like to see what some of the other intelligent posters think.   Personally I think there have been quite a few sub-par areas  in big games but the current state of the board has turned into this war between Brady is at fault or the defense is at fault and when anyone brings something else up it just get buried.

     

     So my concept is just to have a conversation on what are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    1.       What is wrong with the game planning and why can’t they seem to adjust during a game like they use to?  Example McD getting too cute at times and call overly complex plays such at a end around at the worst time when a draw would do….. ect.   I tend to believe that the coaches know what they are doing and the shotgun use and the quick snap play style is by choice, therefore they are doing what gives the team the best chance to win and cover weaknesses.  Why else would this go on for years, in almost every game?  Think about how many game planning sessions the coaches went through to come up with these play concepts.  Does anyone really think they say “oh let’s just give Brady the offense and see what happens? “   So if we start with the premise that everything has been by design, how can the coaches improve the team performance?  Where have they gone wrong with the game planning and what would you love to see more of?

     

    2.       Why does the offensive line seem to fold or have trouble in the biggest games?   Although interceptions and safeties are on a QB, the line has to do better.  I never seen a four man rush gives a QB so little time and constantly push/ collapse the pocket when we have 5 to 6 blockers.  Some will look at the stats and say this is one of the best lines in the NFL, but sometimes I just don’t see it.  If Brady doesn’t get most plays out in 2.5 sec or less seconds these guy would be more toward the middle of the pack in hurries and sacks.

     

    3.       When the defense is in max coverage why can’t the RBs run better? Although, they have occasional 4 to 5 yards rushes, over 50 percent are less than 2 yards.    The Pats are not seeing 8 men in the box so what gives?   Are the holes not there?  Do the RBs not give the play enough time to develop and hit the holes too early?  Do they not look for the cut back lane, or is the line not great at opening holes?   Is the play calling too predictable in that the LB and safety are able to fill in too fast?   Do they have backs that can break first contact? How many times  on third down with  3 or less do they pass because there is no rusher that can get those hard yardage when the D know it is  coming.  I am not just talking goal line situations; I mean 3rd and 2 on our 35 when it is get the yards or punt.

     

    4.       With all this said….. I am not excusing the QB and the WRs. Does Brady take too much on his shoulders that he has been forcing it when he should be throwing it away?  Has he gotten too reliant on the systematic and timing plays that he has lost some of the improvising and/or finding that third or fourth read?   Both the QB and the WRS need to make game changing clutch plays and that has not been happening.   Key drops and miscue have hurt the team in a battle of inches.  How can they improve this?

    Are  there any major areas I missed?  I could say a lot more but this is a good start.  




    "What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?"

    They don't have one (defense) to counter it.

     

    It really is that simple. If the Pats are to win another SB they will need a much better D. BB I believe sees this and has been moving in that direction.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

     

    In response to csylvia79's comment:

     

                  First off I want to say I am not trying to directly call anyone out or do any type of name calling. Please if you are going to reply with a flame or troll post, just don’t bother.  I would love to encourage an open dialog concerning the Patriots weaknesses and what could be the cause.   I also will try to answer my own questions but I would like to see what some of the other intelligent posters think.   Personally I think there have been quite a few sub-par areas  in big games but the current state of the board has turned into this war between Brady is at fault or the defense is at fault and when anyone brings something else up it just get buried.

     

     So my concept is just to have a conversation on what are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    1.       What is wrong with the game planning and why can’t they seem to adjust during a game like they use to?  Example McD getting too cute at times and call overly complex plays such at a end around at the worst time when a draw would do….. ect.   I tend to believe that the coaches know what they are doing and the shotgun use and the quick snap play style is by choice, therefore they are doing what gives the team the best chance to win and cover weaknesses.  Why else would this go on for years, in almost every game?  Think about how many game planning sessions the coaches went through to come up with these play concepts.  Does anyone really think they say “oh let’s just give Brady the offense and see what happens? “   So if we start with the premise that everything has been by design, how can the coaches improve the team performance?  Where have they gone wrong with the game planning and what would you love to see more of?

     

    2.       Why does the offensive line seem to fold or have trouble in the biggest games?   Although interceptions and safeties are on a QB, the line has to do better.  I never seen a four man rush gives a QB so little time and constantly push/ collapse the pocket when we have 5 to 6 blockers.  Some will look at the stats and say this is one of the best lines in the NFL, but sometimes I just don’t see it.  If Brady doesn’t get most plays out in 2.5 sec or less seconds these guy would be more toward the middle of the pack in hurries and sacks.

     

    3.       When the defense is in max coverage why can’t the RBs run better? Although, they have occasional 4 to 5 yards rushes, over 50 percent are less than 2 yards.    The Pats are not seeing 8 men in the box so what gives?   Are the holes not there?  Do the RBs not give the play enough time to develop and hit the holes too early?  Do they not look for the cut back lane, or is the line not great at opening holes?   Is the play calling too predictable in that the LB and safety are able to fill in too fast?   Do they have backs that can break first contact? How many times  on third down with  3 or less do they pass because there is no rusher that can get those hard yardage when the D know it is  coming.  I am not just talking goal line situations; I mean 3rd and 2 on our 35 when it is get the yards or punt.

     

    4.       With all this said….. I am not excusing the QB and the WRs. Does Brady take too much on his shoulders that he has been forcing it when he should be throwing it away?  Has he gotten too reliant on the systematic and timing plays that he has lost some of the improvising and/or finding that third or fourth read?   Both the QB and the WRS need to make game changing clutch plays and that has not been happening.   Key drops and miscue have hurt the team in a battle of inches.  How can they improve this?

    Are  there any major areas I missed?  I could say a lot more but this is a good start.  

     




     

    "What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?"

    They don't have one (defense) to counter it.

     

    It really is that simple. If the Pats are to win another SB they will need a much better D. BB I believe sees this and has been moving in that direction.

     




    Did you watch SB 46? If our D does not create 2 turnovers, apparently our offense sucks, which clearly is a problem when you have that kind of talent on the offense.

     

    It's also an offensive era.  If Talib and Jones were available in the AFC title game, we very well may have won it.

    We're not going anywhere with such weak offense and subpar or mediocre QB play, though.

    Welker is long, long gone and it's not a coincidence either. In an offensive era like this, offenses win championships.

    Balanced offenses. Saints, GB, Giants, Ravens offenses = Balanced




    It is the D's job to limit points and take away the ball as to give your O adequate opportunities to score.

    You accomplish this by:

    1,Stopping additional 1st downs.  They allowed over 3 extra of these per possession.  Each extra 1st down will allow the opposition a MINIMUM of 10 yards closer to the goal line and use excessive time on defense.  Grade:  Fail

    2, getting interceptions.  Grade: FAIL

    3, forcing fumbles.  Grade: Fail

    4, allowed scoring on 50% of the possessions.  Grade Fail

    In a normal NFL game, accomplishing some or all of these will help win the game.  On the contrary, when none of these are accomplished, it places the Offense at a huge disadvantage because chances are,  the other teams Defense is and therefore helping their team to win.   The chances of a defense failing in all these areas, especially on a play-off caliber team are extremely slim.... In fact, unheard of.

    Grade:  F

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

     

    In response to csylvia79's comment:

     

                  First off I want to say I am not trying to directly call anyone out or do any type of name calling. Please if you are going to reply with a flame or troll post, just don’t bother.  I would love to encourage an open dialog concerning the Patriots weaknesses and what could be the cause.   I also will try to answer my own questions but I would like to see what some of the other intelligent posters think.   Personally I think there have been quite a few sub-par areas  in big games but the current state of the board has turned into this war between Brady is at fault or the defense is at fault and when anyone brings something else up it just get buried.

     

     So my concept is just to have a conversation on what are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    1.       What is wrong with the game planning and why can’t they seem to adjust during a game like they use to?  Example McD getting too cute at times and call overly complex plays such at a end around at the worst time when a draw would do….. ect.   I tend to believe that the coaches know what they are doing and the shotgun use and the quick snap play style is by choice, therefore they are doing what gives the team the best chance to win and cover weaknesses.  Why else would this go on for years, in almost every game?  Think about how many game planning sessions the coaches went through to come up with these play concepts.  Does anyone really think they say “oh let’s just give Brady the offense and see what happens? “   So if we start with the premise that everything has been by design, how can the coaches improve the team performance?  Where have they gone wrong with the game planning and what would you love to see more of?

     

    2.       Why does the offensive line seem to fold or have trouble in the biggest games?   Although interceptions and safeties are on a QB, the line has to do better.  I never seen a four man rush gives a QB so little time and constantly push/ collapse the pocket when we have 5 to 6 blockers.  Some will look at the stats and say this is one of the best lines in the NFL, but sometimes I just don’t see it.  If Brady doesn’t get most plays out in 2.5 sec or less seconds these guy would be more toward the middle of the pack in hurries and sacks.

     

    3.       When the defense is in max coverage why can’t the RBs run better? Although, they have occasional 4 to 5 yards rushes, over 50 percent are less than 2 yards.    The Pats are not seeing 8 men in the box so what gives?   Are the holes not there?  Do the RBs not give the play enough time to develop and hit the holes too early?  Do they not look for the cut back lane, or is the line not great at opening holes?   Is the play calling too predictable in that the LB and safety are able to fill in too fast?   Do they have backs that can break first contact? How many times  on third down with  3 or less do they pass because there is no rusher that can get those hard yardage when the D know it is  coming.  I am not just talking goal line situations; I mean 3rd and 2 on our 35 when it is get the yards or punt.

     

    4.       With all this said….. I am not excusing the QB and the WRs. Does Brady take too much on his shoulders that he has been forcing it when he should be throwing it away?  Has he gotten too reliant on the systematic and timing plays that he has lost some of the improvising and/or finding that third or fourth read?   Both the QB and the WRS need to make game changing clutch plays and that has not been happening.   Key drops and miscue have hurt the team in a battle of inches.  How can they improve this?

    Are  there any major areas I missed?  I could say a lot more but this is a good start.  

     




     

    "What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?"

    They don't have one (defense) to counter it.

     

    It really is that simple. If the Pats are to win another SB they will need a much better D. BB I believe sees this and has been moving in that direction.

     




    Did you watch SB 46? If our D does not create 2 turnovers, apparently our offense sucks, which clearly is a problem when you have that kind of talent on the offense.

     

    It's also an offensive era.  If Talib and Jones were available in the AFC title game, we very well may have won it.

    We're not going anywhere with such weak offense and subpar or mediocre QB play, though.

    Welker is long, long gone and it's not a coincidence either. In an offensive era like this, offenses win championships.

    Balanced offenses. Saints, GB, Giants, Ravens offenses = Balanced




    The Offense was great...wonderful.....except when it mattered...you average out as the highest scoring team during the regular season and then promptly pee your pants on the national stage in the playoffs.....

    What part of that is so hard to get?

    I'm done with the pretty boy offense than gets beaten up at recess. All my life it was defense that carried the day in December and January.

    Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick know this better than most having been the architects of innovative defenses in the NFL over many years.

    BB recent defensive drafts and defensive additions tell me he knows it’s time to come home….and I eagerly await having a top 10 defense once again.

     

     

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    The biggest problem the offense had against the better defenses were two-fold. One they went away from what was working in the running game and secondly when they went away from the running game they had no stretcth the field receiver and midget boy A.K.A. Wes Welker came up looking like Dick Stuart,for those of you not old enough to know  Dick Stuart here's what his nickname was: Hands of stone! He played baseball and could hit a ball a mile but they didn't have a DH position to hide his defensive liabilities back in the early sixties. On a note which was even more prevelant our Defense though above average had no defensive backs big enough to cover Boldin who simply ran over the midgets that BB put on the field to defend bigger and stronger WR's. Once Talib went down with what I question was a pulled hammy, I knew Flacco would expose the under 5'10 club! Maybe drafting all the Rutgers secondary was done so that the overall height of the 2013 secondary would be a shade over 6' on average. Logan Ryan being the smallest of the trio of Rutgers guys at 5'11 and 3/8ths, the other two new Rutgers players providing they both make the team are 6'1" Harmon and Jones. So with these taller additions mixed in with prior signings and last years drafting of Tavon Wilson the team has 5 DB's taller than 6' on the roster. what do all the girls say? Yup size matters. The same holds true for the WR position each of the draftees were taller than the guys they replaced as that is the trend in the NFL. The other good thing about the new WR's is speed,and we all know what John Madden says: You can't teach speed... Watch for Boyce once he hits the field 4.38 with a broken foot,what does he run when healthy??????

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?  Coaching, meaning Offensive Cordinator.  Josh McDaniels (and Billy OB for a couple years) NEED to STEP UP when it counts!  Weis was wonderful calling a game with much less to work with but knew what to call when...which I feel plays a big part against ELITE Defenses.

    IF Josh M can take his coaching to another Level, the lombardi will be soon in reach.  I feel the same way about D-Cord too. 

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Have they played an elite defense recently? They looked lousy in the last couple playoff losses against decidedly mediocre defenses, so this can't be about those games. Don't tell me you think the 27th ranked NYG or the 17th ranked Ravens were elite? Hardly.

    They looked lousy in 2010 against the Jets in a postseason loss, a Jets defense that they destroyed a few weeks earlier, so we can't be talking about them, can we?

    In '09, they just weren't very good and they lost their best receiver to injury the week before.

    This is not about some flaw, at least not as I see it. It's about showing up unprepared to some extent, and the other team making better adjustments and bigger plays.  It's about a few plays here and there. Gronk getting hurt the last two years didn't help. I think they win the '11 SB if he's healthy, and last year they'd have kept it a lot closer with him. They certainly wouldn't have been so reliant on 83 to make every big play.

     

     



    What is the pattern in those games? Too much shotgun, no run game established, 40+ passes and a blown lead with way too few points scored anyway.

     

    13 or 14 points ain't cutting it.   Even the Jets loss in 2010 had us score later in the game, bu the game was already over because we had wasted so much time forcing our finesse shotgun spread and subbing the backs in and out.

    They panicked in that one. 

     



    I agree, unprepared. Gameplanning, in game adjustments and execution all lacking. Hard to explain, but it seems to happen somewhat frequently in January/February. Still say Gronk would have helped immensely.

     



    Muz, you dont think this comes ffom coaching. If you coach is nervous, confident, etc,. it all trickles down. Weve looked awfully tight the last few years in the playoffs. Just flustered, out of sorts, unprepared and unsure. Thats a coaching thing and THAT is truly Baffling. Need More veteran playmakers on D like we used to have. In 2001, Brady wasnt lighted it up, but he had a compimentary D that made timely plays and kept the O in the game. Now...not so much

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Have they played an elite defense recently? They looked lousy in the last couple playoff losses against decidedly mediocre defenses, so this can't be about those games. Don't tell me you think the 27th ranked NYG or the 17th ranked Ravens were elite? Hardly.

    They looked lousy in 2010 against the Jets in a postseason loss, a Jets defense that they destroyed a few weeks earlier, so we can't be talking about them, can we?

    In '09, they just weren't very good and they lost their best receiver to injury the week before.

    This is not about some flaw, at least not as I see it. It's about showing up unprepared to some extent, and the other team making better adjustments and bigger plays.  It's about a few plays here and there. Gronk getting hurt the last two years didn't help. I think they win the '11 SB if he's healthy, and last year they'd have kept it a lot closer with him. They certainly wouldn't have been so reliant on 83 to make every big play.

     

     



    What is the pattern in those games? Too much shotgun, no run game established, 40+ passes and a blown lead with way too few points scored anyway.

     

    13 or 14 points ain't cutting it.   Even the Jets loss in 2010 had us score later in the game, bu the game was already over because we had wasted so much time forcing our finesse shotgun spread and subbing the backs in and out.

    They panicked in that one. 

     



    I agree, unprepared. Gameplanning, in game adjustments and execution all lacking. Hard to explain, but it seems to happen somewhat frequently in January/February. Still say Gronk would have helped immensely.

     

     



    Muz, you dont think this comes ffom coaching. If you coach is nervous, confident, etc,. it all trickles down. Weve looked awfully tight the last few years in the playoffs. Just flustered, out of sorts, unprepared and unsure. Thats a coaching thing and THAT is truly Baffling. Need More veteran playmakers on D like we used to have. In 2001, Brady wasnt lighted it up, but he had a compimentary D that made timely plays and kept the O in the game. Now...not so much

     

     




     

    I am not sure the coaching is the issue as far as portraying the emotional state of the team.

    For example in SB 46 was it the coaches nervousness that made Brady take a safety? I would think it was more of a bad play call then a bad decision.

    Was it nervousness that caused Nink to jump offsides/Brady to throw a bad int/Welker to drop the ball??? To me these are veteran players who just didn't execute.

    I find it hard to believe that the coaches portray a nervous mental state that manifests itself in the play of the team.

    If anything I think if you ask the players they would tell you that the pat's coaches give them the tools weekly to succeed.

    just my opinion

     



    I'm inclined to agree.  To me, the two plays that best represented which team won and whcih team didn't are the two critical pass plays.  Eli complted to Winnigham and TB did not complete to Welker.  I'm not saying that these plays alone cost the Pats the game; what I'm saying is that they represent how the Giants executed when it mattered and the Pats didn't.  

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    IMO This offense has gotten away from "taking what the defense gives them" whether that be a 4 yard run, or a check down to the side lines. We miss guys you never heard of catching a crucial 1st down(Marc Edwards, or JR Redmond)

    We look down field more then ever before and everybody knows it. The playoff defense's all play us the same way but it only works if we keep doing the same thing. I would love to see WAY more designed screens to RB's, check down for 4 or 5 yards instead of forcing it to WW. Manage the drives and extend them don't just go all or nothing. These type of plays frustrate a defense who has all the receiving options covered.

    In the biggest games on the most crucial plays everybody know we are going to spread 4 or 5 guys against 7 defenders. We are still predictable. I thought we made strides last year to change what we were doing but as the season wore down the stretch we started seeing the same old offense.

    Take what the defense gives you. Bring back Brady's favorite receiver..."the open one" and win a 4rth SB.

     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    Exactly, true champ.  We're more concerned about subbing personnel for "matchups" no more than ever, which is also a problem and overkill.

    Everyone knows that's what we're doing so they can easily match it. It's just so ridiculous to think that somehow, some way, it's going to break for us and we'll reel off 20 points in 10 minutes.

    It just doesn't happen. 

    Definitely extend the drive as long as possible and then get the 7.  We seem to have ignored all the small things we used to master and then we lose by 1-3 points and everyone wonders why.

    Offense. That's why.

     

    the Hurry up offense for the entire game only gives the ball back to the opposing teams offense sooner and what did that do? It showed how bad our defense was in 2012.


     
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    Re: What are the Patriots flaws against elite defenses?

    I think the underlying problem with the O is that the line is good and Scharneccia makes em better. But when faving the best Ds in the biggest games they are not quite good enough. The run blocking is not dominant enough to get 1-2 yards in the toughest situations against those best Ds. The pass blocking is not good enough to give TB time against the very best in the biggest games and biggest plays.

    I do think that a healthy Gronk would have made a difference in the playoffs. But we are talking about things other than health.

    I do think that more talent at WR that can stretch the field will help both the running game and underneath passing game. And so give some room to the o line.

    Someone said we need more depth on O line. That is exactly what we have had. Depth probabl;y better than any team in the league. We will still need it. But we need to be that bit tougher up front. Wozzy was right about toghness and it should come from the O line. It would also be nice to have Corey Dillon but we dont ahve him.

    I think an upgrade at C and/or RG would help. Not that they are not decent players. Just not quite good enough.

     

     
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