What Defense are the Patriots playing?

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  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMPhotographer. Show BMPhotographer's posts

    What Defense are the Patriots playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 1:41 AM EDT

    Hi Name is Brian McDonald, lived in Boston for most my life but have since moved south to TN... I am new to the forums and would like some of the "Vetz" to help me understand our defensive schemes.

    I know we switched to the 4-3 and I have no problem with that, but what I am tired of hearing is the constant complaint that we "need good Corners!!". That is a complaint I hear from every fan(that I know).

    Ever since we lost Crennel we have not been a top tier defense, I am worried with the current lack of faith Bill might have in our corners. These corners have 45 Career INT's, and are not just patches. I think our defense has improved leaps and bounds year-over-year.

    + We got quicker, younger and really recieved a upgrade on the outside's

    But just something I have noticed over the last 3 years, is our lack of pressure on our opposing reciever's outside.




    Watching where the ball is getting thrown against us, I can't help but feel we are playing Base 4-3 Cover 2. Which is fine with me, but why must we not bump at the line? If we are not going to bring a rush(besides the front 4) why not try to give our second line of defense a chance to get off their back pedals and pick up the route?

    As you can see, this is what I feel we are currently running.


    This ensures that the only big play oppurtunity we face is the middle of the field. Which is where the one BIG play we had against us came from.

    Here is a rough sketch of what I think is happening:




    (excuse my doodle skills, I'm trying to give you something to look at)


    Here is what has happened over and over.

    Left side of field:

     WR#1 runs a in route, I seen many times that we did "bump" on the left but what has happened worries me.

    I will explain:

    Option 1:

     Offense runs a nice little in route with WR1, With a under route from the RB.

    The saftey back pedals to his zone, and our CB1 bumps WR1. Our OLB drops into coverage, and our CB 1 is forces to "release" WR 1 back to his route. He does this to pick up the running back coming out of the back field.

    This causes a "Hole" on the left side, Since the Saftey is already predicting deep when the WR1 breaks towards the middle of the field. So our saftey breaks off his coverage and tries to play "catch-up".

    So the result is a 10 or so yard post pattern completion, where it essentially looks like "three Patriot defenders are just "standing around".

    This one option has caused concern, as teams have used this as a "bail-out-plan" when facing 2nd&long or 3rd&long. This can NOT be blamed on our secondary, they are simply doing what has been drilled into thier head since PEE-WEE Football.

    Alright, stay with me.

    Option 2:

    What a LOT of teams do is run say TE or S-WR depending on formation offense is running, (on doodle) to the middle of the field and run WR1 through the middle. IE our big play we gave up that led to the only touchdown.


    Now our right side has problems also, and it is strictly the coverage. if they LOAD the right side with options, or run a back to the flats, we OFTEN get beat down the field as our Saftey and OLB have to drop into coverage(based on their zone assignments). 


    My overall concern is the fact that we can't get off the field when we need to. And I think this is why, We go almost into what can be compared to "Prevent defense". Our goal seems to be to play "don't give up anything over the top", and give them room under.

    Please give me some feedback, as I think this is a scheme/defensive call problem more than it is talent on this team....


    BTW if we run this against the Dolphins' Wildcat we have no shot, as it "softens" our run defense also.

    There seems to be a better way of defending, we can stick with zone over the top and play MAN on the outside! These corner's can make the big play we will need to get off the field... They just can't be blamed when put into a situation where they HAVE TO follow Coach's order.


    I still love Bill, I'm not a Bill "hater" I just am realizing that our Defensive Mastermind might not be one. I think he is a stellar personnel Coach, and know's what kind of player is needed in his system. But I think the defensive scheme is "defunked".


    Thanks if you read all this,


    Brian McDonald





     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from patpscyho. Show patpscyho's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 2:41 AM EDT

    In Response to What Defense are we playing?:
    Hi Name is Brian McDonald, lived in Boston for most my life but have since moved south to TN... I am new to the forums and would like some of the "Vetz" to help me understand our defensive schemes. I know we switched to the 4-3 and I have no problem with that, but what I am tired of hearing is the constant complaint that we "need good Corners!!". That is a complaint I hear from every fan(that I know). Ever since we lost Crennel we have not been a top tier defense, I am worried with the current lack of faith Bill might have in our corners. These corners have 45 Career INT's, and are not just patches. I think our defense has improved leaps and bounds year-over-year. + We got quicker, younger and really recieved a upgrade on the outside's But just something I have noticed over the last 3 years, is our lack of pressure on our opposing reciever's outside. Watching where the ball is getting thrown against us, I can't help but feel we are playing Base 4-3 Cover 2. Which is fine with me, but why must we not bump at the line? If we are not going to bring a rush(besides the front 4) why not try to give our second line of defense a chance to get off their back pedals and pick up the route? As you can see, this is what I feel we are currently running. This ensures that the only big play oppurtunity we face is the middle of the field. Which is where the one BIG play we had against us came from. Here is a rough sketch of what I think is happening: (excuse my doodle skills, I'm trying to give you something to look at) Here is what has happened over and over. Left side of field:   WR#1 runs a in route, I seen many times that we did "bump" on the left but what has happened worries me. I will explain: Option 1:  Offense runs a nice little in route with WR1 , With a under route from the RB . The saftey back pedals to his zone , and our CB1 bumps WR1 . Our OLB drops into coverage , and our CB 1 is forces to "release" WR 1 back to his route . He does this to pick up the running back coming out of the back field . This causes a "Hole" on the left side , Since the Saftey is already predicting deep when the WR1 breaks towards the middle of the field . So our saftey breaks off his coverage and tries to play "catch-up" . So the result is a 10 or so yard post pattern completion , where it essentially looks like "three Patriot defenders are just "standing around". This one option has caused concern, as teams have used this as a "bail-out-plan" when facing 2nd&long or 3rd&long . This can NOT be blamed on our secondary, they are simply doing what has been drilled into thier head since PEE-WEE Football. Alright, stay with me. Option 2: What a LOT of teams do is run say TE or S-WR depending on formation offense is running, (on doodle) to the middle of the field and run WR1 through the middle. IE our big play we gave up that led to the only touchdown. Now our right side has problems also, and it is strictly the coverage. if they LOAD the right side with options, or run a back to the flats, we OFTEN get beat down the field as our Saftey and OLB have to drop into coverage(based on their zone assignments).  My overall concern is the fact that we can't get off the field when we need to. And I think this is why, We go almost into what can be compared to "Prevent defense". Our goal seems to be to play "don't give up anything over the top", and give them room under. Please give me some feedback, as I think this is a scheme/defensive call problem more than it is talent on this team.... BTW if we run this against the Dolphins' Wildcat we have no shot, as it "softens" our run defense also. There seems to be a better way of defending, we can stick with zone over the top and play MAN on the outside! These corner's can make the big play we will need to get off the field... They just can't be blamed when put into a situation where they HAVE TO follow Coach's order. I still love Bill, I'm not a Bill "hater" I just am realizing that our Defensive Mastermind might not be one. I think he is a stellar personnel Coach, and know's what kind of player is needed in his system. But I think the defensive scheme is "defunked". Thanks if you read all this, Brian McDonald
    Posted by BMPhotographer

    Your entire premise is flawed on one single fact: we DON'T play a base defense.  We did a 3-4 in week one, and then a 4-2-5 nickel cover 3 vs. Jets and next week we will play a standard 4-3 with both safeties over the top to contain Gonzalez.  This is the way we have played D for a long time.. our philosophy has been to take away the other team's strengths.

    The simple fact that you mention noticing "something" happening in the past 3 years doesn't make sense because we were operating mostly in a 3-4 up to this year not a 4-3 cover 2 as you imply.

    Also that 10 yard post completion is what BB will give up in lieu of the big play. That is his conservative approach to defense based on statistical probabilities which drives a lot of people crazy because they love and want to see sexy blitz and rush packages which inherently is a high risk/high reward propensity. People love Ryan's defense, but the fact is he has won nothing with it, since '05 (his SB with Ravens came when he was an assistant).



     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 2:43 AM EDT

    In Response to What Defense are we playing?:
    Hi Name is Brian McDonald, lived in Boston for most my life but have since moved south to TN... I am new to the forums and would like some of the "Vetz" to help me understand our defensive schemes. I know we switched to the 4-3 and I have no problem with that, but what I am tired of hearing is the constant complaint that we "need good Corners!!". That is a complaint I hear from every fan(that I know). Ever since we lost Crennel we have not been a top tier defense, I am worried with the current lack of faith Bill might have in our corners. These corners have 45 Career INT's, and are not just patches. I think our defense has improved leaps and bounds year-over-year. + We got quicker, younger and really recieved a upgrade on the outside's But just something I have noticed over the last 3 years, is our lack of pressure on our opposing reciever's outside. Watching where the ball is getting thrown against us, I can't help but feel we are playing Base 4-3 Cover 2. Which is fine with me, but why must we not bump at the line? If we are not going to bring a rush(besides the front 4) why not try to give our second line of defense a chance to get off their back pedals and pick up the route? As you can see, this is what I feel we are currently running. This ensures that the only big play oppurtunity we face is the middle of the field. Which is where the one BIG play we had against us came from. Here is a rough sketch of what I think is happening: (excuse my doodle skills, I'm trying to give you something to look at) Here is what has happened over and over. Left side of field:   WR#1 runs a in route, I seen many times that we did "bump" on the left but what has happened worries me. I will explain: Option 1:  Offense runs a nice little in route with WR1 , With a under route from the RB . The saftey back pedals to his zone , and our CB1 bumps WR1 . Our OLB drops into coverage , and our CB 1 is forces to "release" WR 1 back to his route . He does this to pick up the running back coming out of the back field . This causes a "Hole" on the left side , Since the Saftey is already predicting deep when the WR1 breaks towards the middle of the field . So our saftey breaks off his coverage and tries to play "catch-up" . So the result is a 10 or so yard post pattern completion , where it essentially looks like "three Patriot defenders are just "standing around". This one option has caused concern, as teams have used this as a "bail-out-plan" when facing 2nd&long or 3rd&long . This can NOT be blamed on our secondary, they are simply doing what has been drilled into thier head since PEE-WEE Football. Alright, stay with me. Option 2: What a LOT of teams do is run say TE or S-WR depending on formation offense is running, (on doodle) to the middle of the field and run WR1 through the middle. IE our big play we gave up that led to the only touchdown. Now our right side has problems also, and it is strictly the coverage. if they LOAD the right side with options, or run a back to the flats, we OFTEN get beat down the field as our Saftey and OLB have to drop into coverage(based on their zone assignments).  My overall concern is the fact that we can't get off the field when we need to. And I think this is why, We go almost into what can be compared to "Prevent defense". Our goal seems to be to play "don't give up anything over the top", and give them room under. Please give me some feedback, as I think this is a scheme/defensive call problem more than it is talent on this team.... BTW if we run this against the Dolphins' Wildcat we have no shot, as it "softens" our run defense also. There seems to be a better way of defending, we can stick with zone over the top and play MAN on the outside! These corner's can make the big play we will need to get off the field... They just can't be blamed when put into a situation where they HAVE TO follow Coach's order. I still love Bill, I'm not a Bill "hater" I just am realizing that our Defensive Mastermind might not be one. I think he is a stellar personnel Coach, and know's what kind of player is needed in his system. But I think the defensive scheme is "defunked". Thanks if you read all this, Brian McDonald
    Posted by BMPhotographer

    Brian; Do you have access to coach's films? I'd like to see more of what our DBs are doing but the traditional network TV coverage just focuses on the ball carrier and doesn't include the full field view that you need to see all that downfield action simultaneously. 
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from patpscyho. Show patpscyho's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 2:44 AM EDT

    Also if you haven't, please take a closer look at your diagram and you'll see it's a 1-gapping 4-3, and BB's always been of the two-gapping 3-4 or 4-3 mindset.
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMPhotographer. Show BMPhotographer's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 3:19 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: What Defense are we playing?:
    Also if you haven't, please take a closer look at your diagram and you'll see it's a 1-gapping 4-3, and BB's always been of the two-gapping 3-4 or 4-3 mindset.
    Posted by patpscyho



    Thanks very much for the quick reply's. This is exactly what I wanted, which was a quick repsonse with someone else's opinion on the defense. And yes this is what I noticed from just standard TV broadcast and DVR(to above poster).

    And I understand about the diagram, it was just the first thing I found just so I could give a mental picture as to what I was talking about. Least it helped you with your answer eh?

    Thanks guys, I'm going to look at the game a little more (DVR) when I get a chance and look for what was pointed out!

    Thanks again!


    Brian McDonald
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 6:45 AM EDT

    Brian, I think there's a lot of variation in what the Pats do on defense, but I think you're basically right that most of the time they take away the deep pass but leave a lot open in the underneath zones. During the past few years it's been frustrating to watch other teams set up receivers in a hole in the zone, get a reception, and then (too often) a few more yards after the catch while the DBs try to close on the receiver. Part of the problem may be the coverages they employ, but another part of the problem is they don't get a sufficient pass rush. With a lot of time on each play, the receiver has time to position himself in a seam in the zone and the quarterback has plenty of time to find him and make an unhurried throw. Every pass coverage scheme will have some weaknesses. The key to limiting the effect of those weaknesses is to get a good rush and hurry the play. The Pats' rush has been pretty anemic for a while. Part of the problem is that their linemen are good run stoppers but not good pass rushers. This is appropriate in a 3-4, where the linemen really aren't expected to rush anyway and where the LBs are primarily responsible for pressuring the QB.  But the Pats LBs haven't been good rushers either (at least since Vrabel started to slow down a year or two ago).  Now that they've switched to a 4-3, the problem is even worse, since they are relying on the DL for a lot of the pass rush and tackles like Wilfork and Wright just aren't great interior rushers and Green and Warren are not the fastest DEs.  In passing situations, the Pats have been substituting Banta-Cain and Burgess for Green and Warren, but that hasn't seemed to generate any more pressure. I've been particularly disappointed in Burgess's production (though I'm not sure it's his fault or a fault of the schemes employed).  In a 4-3, we need at least one good pass rusher on the DL. I was hoping Burgess would be that guy but so far it doesn't seem like it.  
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobtich. Show bobtich's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 6:53 AM EDT

    It doesn't matter what defense you play if all the good players either left,retired, or got hurt. It's more important to figure out how to fix the offense which has tanked for two games only coming alive when Buffalo went into "prevent winning mode." Brady is getting more gunshy every game starting with the 2007 Super Bowl and the pressure that showed up the pass protection. He'll get some wins over the blitz with teams with poor secondaries but the future will be bleak if the coaching doesn't come up with answers.
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 7:34 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: What Defense are we playing?:
    In Response to What Defense are we playing? : Your entire premise is flawed on one single fact: we DON'T play a base defense.  We did a 3-4 in week one, and then a 4-2-5 nickel cover 3 vs. Jets and next week we will play a standard 4-3 with both safeties over the top to contain Gonzalez.  This is the way we have played D for a long time.. our philosophy has been to take away the other team's strengths. The simple fact that you mention noticing "something" happening in the past 3 years doesn't make sense because we were operating mostly in a 3-4 up to this year not a 4-3 cover 2 as you imply. Also that 10 yard post completion is what BB will give up in lieu of the big play. That is his conservative approach to defense based on statistical probabilities which drives a lot of people crazy because they love and want to see sexy blitz and rush packages which inherently is a high risk/high reward propensity. People love Ryan's defense, but the fact is he has won nothing with it, since '05 (his SB with Ravens came when he was an assistant).
    Posted by patpscyho


    But Psycho, do you really think BB willingly gives up those 10 yard post routes on every 3rd and intermediate just to prevent the big play?  Isn't there some way to conservatively stop the 3rd and 10 pass plays?  Also, what do you think of the criticism of our pass rush?  I think Wilfork and Wright looked as good at getting to the passer as any DT I've seen.  Starting Ty Warren at DE in the 4-3 though does not seem like a recipe for pressuring the QB on early downs.  Is some team going to come along one day and just pass on the Pats all day?
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from patpscyho. Show patpscyho's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 12:31 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: What Defense are we playing?:
    In Response to Re: What Defense are we playing? : But Psycho, do you really think BB willingly gives up those 10 yard post routes on every 3rd and intermediate just to prevent the big play?  Isn't there some way to conservatively stop the 3rd and 10 pass plays?  Also, what do you think of the criticism of our pass rush?  I think Wilfork and Wright looked as good at getting to the passer as any DT I've seen.  Starting Ty Warren at DE in the 4-3 though does not seem like a recipe for pressuring the QB on early downs.  Is some team going to come along one day and just pass on the Pats all day?
    Posted by themightypatriotz

    Well we'll see what happens when the Falcons come to town because Ryan is the most solid QB of the 3 teams we're facing so far and is a passing QB.

    Ideally, BB would like to give up absolutely nothing, but the reasoning is that if you hypothetically give up a 3rd and short situation for a short to medium gain, you still have a few more chances to stop it because the chains only move in incremental lengths down the field (i.e., they have to labor down the field), whereas a big play can change the complexion and even the confidence of a team, and could be a game-changer, and at the very least, puts the other team in FG range.

    Conservatively stopping the 3rd and long is what is driving some people in this forum crazy; they don't want to see conservative, they want to see the QB eating turf. It's like comparing a dunk to a layup. Most people love the prior, but the fact is, both are worth the same: two points. In the same vein, you can stop a 3rd and long without even touching the QB, by pressure, by coverage- that's the conservative approach.

    Our pass-rush isn't there yet, but I think it's too early to be passing judgement on it. Burgess is already being attacked for being MIA, but what people forget is that he only started playing right before the first preseason game. He was sitting out up until that point.

    Our defense is still coming together.. it has to find a new identity.

    I would say midseason would be the time to worry if nothing has happened by then.

     

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    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 3:14 PM EDT

    But Dr. Strangelove, wouldn't the living envy the dead?

    Man I wish we had one of those doomsday machines. 
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from garagedoor. Show garagedoor's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/23/2009 4:37 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: What Defense are we playing?:
    It doesn't matter what defense you play if all the good players either left,retired, or got hurt. It's more important to figure out how to fix the offense which has tanked for two games only coming alive when Buffalo went into "prevent winning mode." Brady is getting more gunshy every game starting with the 2007 Super Bowl and the pressure that showed up the pass protection. He'll get some wins over the blitz with teams with poor secondaries but the future will be bleak if the coaching doesn't come up with answers.
    Posted by bobtich


    I think the problem with the defense is they all look like deer in the headlights. one of the softest hitting team in the league for how long now? Playbook is to big on defense maybe?
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from patpscyho. Show patpscyho's posts

    Re: What Defense are we playing?

    posted at 9/24/2009 1:27 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: What Defense are we playing?:
    But Dr. Strangelove, wouldn't the living envy the dead? Man I wish we had one of those doomsday machines.  
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    LOL


     

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