What Difference Does Talib Make?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    What Difference Does Talib Make?

     

    Just polling -- did they delete the polling feature or am I just missing it btw?

    I am wondering myself what kind of a difference a player like Aquib Talib can make. When he came out, in the draft thread, I thought his skill-set (tackling, reading the QB, driving to the play/ball) were a fit for what BB has historically done in NE. He was drafted by another team. Several arrests/incidents later, he is carrying his baggage to NE's secondary -- which is in dire need of help, IMO.

    At any given rate, I am excited by the possibility of having some real premium talent, and if he works out (plays to his potential given his history) he could be the Pats version of Orlando Cabrera (ha!), or better yet, like when they bolstered their offense in 2004 adding C Dills. 

    Just want to check what other people think those chances are. Homer glasses off. Football talk on. 

    OK. I don't want non-football replies. So, what I mean is: assume he is a boyscout and focused while he is here.

    How much of a difference can you see him being from a skills perspective? I assume, as well, that he plays corner and they bump DMC back to safety.

    • A) Does he lock down at least one WR for NE?
    • B) Is he not lockdown, but the playmaker they desperately need back there?
    • C) Is he just good, but the overall defense is improved by settling down the safety position at the same time via DMCs move?
    • D) Is he merely competent? That is, marginal improvement at the position.
    • E) He doesn't make a difference! TB cut bait for a skills reason!

     

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjoseph. Show nyjoseph's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    I'm going with your 4th bullet.  I think he will be competent if, as you say, the non-football stuff is not an issue.  I think, sadly part of the problem will be that the scheme won't play to his strengths and the lack of a pass rush will require him to cover too long.

    I'd be interested to know from practices whether he turns to the ball.  Can't wait to see him Sunday.

    Oh, yeah, the poll feature has was lost in the "changes".  Don't hold your breath for its return.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from seymonster. Show seymonster's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    what i have heard most from the media guys is they'll probably put talib man up on the #2 WR, and use dennard + a safety (mccourty) on the #1 wr.  in other words the pieces are there to mix up man and zone coverages quite well, which could pay dividends if it works out. either way, welcome to the nfl, mr luck.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to nyjoseph's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm going with your 4th bullet.  I think he will be competent if, as you say, the non-football stuff is not an issue.  I think, sadly part of the problem will be that the scheme won't play to his strengths and the lack of a pass rush will require him to cover too long.

    I'd be interested to know from practices whether he turns to the ball.  Can't wait to see him Sunday.

    Oh, yeah, the poll feature has was lost in the "changes".  Don't hold your breath for its return.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good response NYJoe. Myself? I think a very good corner could pair well with this current pass rush. Or another pass rusher could make their weak corners look ok. I won't go as low as D). 

    Maybe that's wishful thinkin?!?!?!?

    Yeah ... I p!$$ on them removing the poll feature. haha!

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    My assesment of Talib;

    -He is physical enough to bump at the line and push the WR off his route, and has the athleticism to recover into tight coverage after the bump

    -He is suspect to double moves and pump fakes, as he is always trying to make a play on the ball. This results in him getting beat.

    -He is a sure tackler and can hold the edge better than most CB's.

    Questions for the remaining 7 games;

    What kind of shape is he in?

    Can he quickly get up to speed on the PAts defensive scheme?

    Will he have adequate Safety help when he does bite on double moves and pump fakes?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to jri37's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Based on what I have seen of him and the on the field assesment from the Tampa press it seems to me that he has tremendous talent and skill but lacks the discipline at times in coverage to be an elite CB.

    If you look at his production he has really good ball skills but gets beat badly periodicly  due to his lack of focus at times.

    [/QUOTE]

    So you are what C) or D)? That is kind of on the fence, you review. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    My assesment of Talib;

    -He is physical enough to bump at the line and push the WR off his route, and has the athleticism to recover into tight coverage after the bump

    -He is suspect to double moves and pump fakes, as he is always trying to make a play on the ball. This results in him getting beat.

    -He is a sure tackler and can hold the edge better than most CB's.

    Questions for the remaining 7 games;

    What kind of shape is he in?

    Can he quickly get up to speed on the PAts defensive scheme?

    Will he have adequate Safety help when he does bite on double moves and pump fakes?

    [/QUOTE]

    Good review, good questions RKarp.

    Make the call though! Do you think he can do all that? Some of that? A, B, C, D, E? 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    This defense was going to get better with addition of Talib or not, eventually I'd have to assume that either Ras Dowling or Dennard was going to supplant Arrington as a starter and more importantly the more these young defenders play together there was bound to be improvement.  

    Dont get me wrong Talib is a 5th year vet which gives him two more years of experience than McCourty, and he has proven to be more durable than Ras so automatically it's an upgrade.  But this defense has to play better as a unit, get some healthy safeties back if possible and most important of all we need a consistant pass rush up front.  D Backs are the only people you see when the ball is in the air but if the QB had all day to throw is it their fault?  Covering a receiver is the toughest assignment in the entire NFL.  Cohesion and complimentary football will make or break this defense.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to seymonster's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    what i have heard most from the media guys is they'll probably put talib man up on the #2 WR, and use dennard + a safety (mccourty) on the #1 wr.  in other words the pieces are there to mix up man and zone coverages quite well, which could pay dividends if it works out. either way, welcome to the nfl, mr luck.

    [/QUOTE]

    Doubtful, from a tactical perspective. The last corner BB moved to shadow a player was Ty Law and even that was rare. Essentially, he uses his CBs on one side (RCB) or the other (LCB). So Talib will play whoever is on his side most likely. 

    And yeah, I think the Luck-y Colts are a good warmup for him and the defense. Goodness, they will play better than last week, if for any reason other than the fact that last week was the poorest overall "D" showing (from a fundamentals: missed tackles, assignemtns, poor position) perspective I've seen in a long while here. 

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This defense was going to get better with addition of Talib or not, eventually I'd have to assume that either Ras Dowling or Dennard was going to supplant Arrington as a starter and more importantly the more these young defenders play together there was bound to be improvement.  

    Dont get me wrong Talib is a 5th year vet which gives him two more years of experience than McCourty, and he has proven to be more durable than Ras so automatically it's an upgrade.  But this defense has to play better as a unit, get some healthy safeties back if possible and most important of all we need a consistant pass rush up front.  D Backs are the only people you see when the ball is in the air but if the QB had all day to throw is it their fault?  Covering a receiver is the toughest assignment in the entire NFL.

    [/QUOTE]

    Dowling is on IR, so I don't know how he could help them. 

    Pass rush and coverage are synergistic events. I agree coverage is a real bear. Toughest job on defense really.

    It's an old (on this forum) and well worn discussion. I think another pass rusher, as I said above, could have as much an effect as a player like Talib. There isn't a pass rusher on the market that has equivalent skill level to Talib though. 

    I don't think moving players around will help much at all, it would just expose other areas of weakness. And just because the defense is playing terrible now, they will improve with or without him. But I'm talking about substantive improvement. I.E., they can do things they couldn't do before. Dennard ain't bringing that.

    So the question is ... does he improve the defense and to the tune of A, B, C, or D, ooooor no, E) -- i.e., he is on par with what DMC/Arrington have given them so far. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    I guess it depends on what time frame you are referring to.  This coming Sunday I would guess he would be D with a small chance at B.  Guy needs to practice, learn the scheme and get back in game shape.  I think by the time the playoffs roll around he's going to be a B simply because of his reputation as a ball hawk.  I would be surprised if he becomes an A even by the end of the year.  I see him more as an Asante type not necessarily in terms of skill set, but rather conceptually (i.e. a ballhawk who is not a lockdown CB like Revis, but is still pretty good and WAY better than what we have now).

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to jri37's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jri37's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Based on what I have seen of him and the on the field assesment from the Tampa press it seems to me that he has tremendous talent and skill but lacks the discipline at times in coverage to be an elite CB.

    If you look at his production he has really good ball skills but gets beat badly periodicly  due to his lack of focus at times.

    [/QUOTE]

    So you are what C) or D)? That is kind of on the fence, you review. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Tough to say without knowing what he is going to be asked to do here. I am kind of leaning with seymonster about how he might be used this week.

    I guess I would fall in the C category right now and hope he plays like a B down the road.

    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks. That works. C with an eventual upside of B.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I guess it depends on what time frame you are referring to.  This coming Sunday I would guess he would be D with a small chance at B.  Guy needs to practice, learn the scheme and get back in game shape.  I think by the time the playoffs roll around he's going to be a B simply because of his reputation as a ball hawk.  I would be surprised if he becomes an A even by the end of the year.  I see him more as an Asante type not necessarily in terms of skill set, but rather conceptually (i.e. a ballhawk who is not a lockdown CB like Revis, but is still pretty good and WAY better than what we have now).

    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks. Another D to B kind of swing. And yeah, in that OLD draft thread I compared him to Asante Samuel ... with a pair of t3$ticl3s!!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    If he can be Talib Island, that might just significantly improve the rest of the secondary. I'll guess A.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    Optimistically, I'm in the B camp.  More likely he migrates back and forth from B to C to B.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If he can be Talib Island, that might just significantly improve the rest of the secondary. I'll guess A.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yikes. That's optimistic. I don't think he was shutdown in TB at any point. He was elite in college ... but you can wish in one hand and....

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to ATJ's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Optimistically, I'm in the B camp.  More likely he migrates back and forth from B to C to B.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah. Probably. ABC format is constricting. I was just trying to get a gamut up there. I'm in the B)/C) camp probably. Unless he totally checks out on his coaching he is an improvement. And I see him making some plays down the stretch. But I think the biggest impact will be simply knocking one terrible  defender off the field, and pushing the rest up on the depth chart. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    I loved Talib coming out of college, thought he was the best overall CB talent in '08 draft.  His off-the-field incidents have marred his image, but haven't changed his talent level.  I really like this move by NE bringing him in, and giving him a week or 2 to get integrated into the defensive system.  I do think he'll help our secondary significantly and he has proven to be a play-maker over the course of his career.  Expecting him to come in and be a "shut-down" corner right away seems a bit far-fetched, so for the sake of the poll I'll go with a solid "B".  Good thread, by the way!

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    Talib could be decent CB, but whether you play him in the slot or out wide is a mystery Belichick can solve better than I. He may also provide some value in the return game. The big thing for me is that Talib is bigger than most of the Pats dbs (6'2 205) and could play a more physical game than most of the Pats DBs. The question could be will BB put him in man/press or will he be playing zone. My guess is both to get him acclimated to the position. Alot of issues get resolved if the Pats pass rush improves and opposing QBs don't pitch a tent in the pocket. For me, I will be watching to see if he covers well and makes tackles and doesn't bite on play actions. IMO the Pats don't need another DB that gets caught out of position. Ask yourself this question Do you start Luck in fantasy? If you do than chances are you feel , even with Talib, the Pats secondary is still a glaring weakness that will give up yardage.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to WazzuWheatfarmer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I loved Talib coming out of college, thought he was the best overall CB talent in '08 draft.  His off-the-field incidents have marred his image, but haven't changed his talent level.  I really like this move by NE bringing him in, and giving him a week or 2 to get integrated into the defensive system.  I do think he'll help our secondary significantly and he has proven to be a play-maker over the course of his career.  Expecting him to come in and be a "shut-down" corner right away seems a bit far-fetched, so for the sake of the poll I'll go with a solid "B".  Good thread, by the way!

    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks. That's my feeling to a T. I really wanted this kid in a Flying Elvis coming out. Very excited about the addition. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Talib could be decent CB, but whether you play him in the slot or out wide is a mystery Belichick can solve better than I. He may also provide some value in the return game. The big thing for me is that Talib is bigger than most of the Pats dbs (6'2 205) and could play a more physical game than most of the Pats DBs. The question could be will BB put him in man/press or will he be playing zone. My guess is both to get him acclimated to the position. Alot of issues get resolved if the Pats pass rush improves and opposing QBs don't pitch a tent in the pocket. For me, I will be watching to see if he covers well and makes tackles and doesn't bite on play actions. IMO the Pats don't need another DB that gets caught out of position. Ask yourself this question Do you start Luck in fantasy? If you do than chances are you feel , even with Talib, the Pats secondary is still a glaring weakness that will give up yardage.

    [/QUOTE]


    Hahahaha. Yeah. That is the question. I don't play FF, but I still might be tempted to start Luck. I had a friend finish as runner up last season, and he did that largely by playing whatever QB played NE. (He had Vick as a starter coming in.) 

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: What Difference Does Talib Make?

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This defense was going to get better with addition of Talib or not, eventually I'd have to assume that either Ras Dowling or Dennard was going to supplant Arrington as a starter and more importantly the more these young defenders play together there was bound to be improvement.  

    Dont get me wrong Talib is a 5th year vet which gives him two more years of experience than McCourty, and he has proven to be more durable than Ras so automatically it's an upgrade.  But this defense has to play better as a unit, get some healthy safeties back if possible and most important of all we need a consistant pass rush up front.  D Backs are the only people you see when the ball is in the air but if the QB had all day to throw is it their fault?  Covering a receiver is the toughest assignment in the entire NFL.

    [/QUOTE]

    Dowling is on IR, so I don't know how he could help them. 

    Pass rush and coverage are synergistic events. I agree coverage is a real bear. Toughest job on defense really.

    It's an old (on this forum) and well worn discussion. I think another pass rusher, as I said above, could have as much an effect as a player like Talib. There isn't a pass rusher on the market that has equivalent skill level to Talib though. 

    I don't think moving players around will help much at all, it would just expose other areas of weakness. And just because the defense is playing terrible now, they will improve with or without him. But I'm talking about substantive improvement. I.E., they can do things they couldn't do before. Dennard ain't bringing that.

    So the question is ... does he improve the defense and to the tune of A, B, C, or D, ooooor no, E) -- i.e., he is on par with what DMC/Arrington have given them so far. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I suggested Ras was likely to supplant Arrington as a starter before he got hurt, that's why I said "was."  BB has always preferred Arrington in the slot but he wasn't going to just hand Ras or Dennard the job, they had to put in the work.

    I think the defense has been improving though inconsistant which is typical of young defenses, whether Talib improves this D significantly really hinges on how many injured defenders they get back. 

    If they can move McCourty back to corner and he can cover the speedier of the two starting WR's and Talib can man up the bigger of the two, then we have a very potent one two corner punch.  Even if they keep McCourty at FS with Dennard across from Talib we have two strong physical corners who give up a little in the speed department but McCourty can erase their mistakes if somebody breaks the press.  Ideally we get Chung back and get everybody healthy so we have the depth of talent at corner, but our achilles heel has been the pass rush upfront.  Even Deion Sanders in his prime couldn't help us if we can't crush the pocket more consistantly...

    In short Talib is an upgrade to Ras but he'll look just as helpless as McCourty, Dennard and Arrington without better play upfront.

     
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