What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)

     



    I'm not arguing with you Babe.  I think Brady is a darn good QB and as good a candidate for GOAT as any. 

     




    Hell no. We save our arguing for politics. LMAO

    Was just offering my simple formula for why he is GOAT.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    IMO, there are a big 4 of QBs right now in Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees.

    None of them made it to the Super Bowl, only one made it to the AFCCG.

    Same thing last year, only one made it to the AFCCG

    Year before? Same thing.

    2009, two made it.

     

    There's a lot of parity in the league. A goob qb typically isn't enough.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)

     



    What are the categories? Honest question. I assume winning and Super Bowls is one. Stats and clutch factor is another.

     

    IMO, Montana is in those categories. 

    Toughest one to judge a Qb by is purely on stats. Rules of the game has changed so much. If the league trends the way its been going, 20 years from now, tons of QBs will be breaking statistical records, and it's not necessarily because they're better than today's QBs.




    Stats, Accolades, Winning, Intangibles.

    Brady beats Joe in stats hands down. Winning is pretty much a draw though you could argue Joe has a slight edge in this. Brady has an edge in accolades. I would also give Brady the edge in intangibles because he is FA/cap era and did not enjoy the GOAT WR for years - Joe does narrow that edge down with his running though.

    So, win, draw, edge, edge = Brady = GOAT.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    IMO, there are a big 4 of QBs right now in Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees.

    None of them made it to the Super Bowl, only one made it to the AFCCG.

    Same thing last year, only one made it to the AFCCG

    Year before? Same thing.

    2009, two made it.

     

    There's a lot of parity in the league. A goob qb typically isn't enough.




    There are quite a few "elite" and "second tier elite" QBs around these days.

    As I have said for a number of years now. "Elite QB" + stout defense = quite enhanced chance of winning it all.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     


    Hell no. We save our arguing for politics. LMAO



    :-) 

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    IMO, there are a big 4 of QBs right now in Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees.

    None of them made it to the Super Bowl, only one made it to the AFCCG.

    Same thing last year, only one made it to the AFCCG

    Year before? Same thing.

    2009, two made it.

     

    There's a lot of parity in the league. A goob qb typically isn't enough.



    I think this makes alot of sense.  My OP about not being able to get over the top with the GOAT at the qb position?  I was just being facetious. I believe being the greatest at something is subjective but however someone feels about Brady he's at minimal a very good qb even at this stage of his career.

    So the Pats still have some needs to break through.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.



    re  

    "A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average."

    hello. he'llhave to be barry sanders if you dont block anyone. our run blocking is not adequate to poor half the time

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

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    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     



    have posted this all around the site:

     

    free agent safety goldson.byrd

    fa pass rusher

    mayby fa cover lineabcker

    draft xavikkwer rhodes big tough corner 6 2 215 in rd 1

    big outside wr in rd 2

    rd 3 improve o line, draft safety ie bacarri rambo, cover lb, or dt

    if no fa then draft pass russher (#1 need) ansah, detone jones, jordan, okafor

    rd 2 cb (#2 need)

    rd 3 wr (# 3 need big outside wr who can spearate and has good hands, compete for the ball)

    #2 and 3 can be reversed if necessary to get the players we need as draft falls.

    use 2014 picks to move up if necesaary.

    float mallet for a higher draft pick. if our backuop sees the field we wotn win a sb anyway so wed pikc up the best fa qb avalable or play for lower draft pick in offseason if brady wnet down.

     

     

     



    Wow!  The Pats are in worse shape than I thought.

     



    they are in good shape to make the playoffs, maybe win a game, wihtoiut improvement in personnel, and especially at offensive coordiantor, they will need a heck of a lot of luck to win a sb

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to bredbru's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.

     



    re  

     

    "A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average."

    hello. he'llhave to be barry sanders if you dont block anyone. our run blocking is not adequate to poor half the time




    Agreed. It's on them as well.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to digger0862's comment:

    The Ravens finished the regular season losing 4 out of their last 5 games, beating only the lowly Giants. They stepped it up in the playoffs. The Patriots need to raise their level of play come playoff time. Instead they lay down.




    the "lowly" giants! haha sure pats fan sure...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.




    i would have to agree, but i'd like a few big receivers, and more beef on the o-line, and of course a better defense

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.



    I think we're all set at TE. Gronk, Hernandez, and Ballard, maybe a big new rookie in the draft

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     



    I think we're all set at TE. Gronk, Hernandez, and Ballard, maybe a big new rookie in the draft

     



    i agree....im just making fun of the people who say we dont have enough weapons on offense. its absolutely ridiculous.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

     

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     



    I think we're all set at TE. Gronk, Hernandez, and Ballard, maybe a big new rookie in the draft

     

     



    i agree....im just making fun of the people who say we dont have enough weapons on offense. its absolutely ridiculous.

     



    With Gronk, the offense is fine.  Without him, it is far less formidable.  A lot of the success of the offense has to do with the QB and the coaching.  But some fans can't see that.  That's what's absolutely ridiculous. 

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

     

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     



    I think we're all set at TE. Gronk, Hernandez, and Ballard, maybe a big new rookie in the draft

     

     



    i agree....im just making fun of the people who say we dont have enough weapons on offense. its absolutely ridiculous.

     

     



    With Gronk, the offense is fine.  Without him, it is far less formidable.  A lot of the success of the offense has to do with the QB and the coaching.  But some fans can't see that.  That's what's absolutely ridiculous. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE/]

     

    it definitely hurt the offense to be without gronk, but they were doing fine during the regular season and the first playoff game without him.....they were actually scoring more points on average, without him. they definitely could have used him against the ravens, but they still had plenty enough of weapons to get the job done and they didnt. is it all on brady? no, the team didnt play great as a whole, but when you play as poorly as he did that game, and has in all afc title games/super bowls since 2007, yes you deserve some of the blame. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from MoreRings. Show MoreRings's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    In response to kansaspatriot's comment:

     

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     



    I think we're all set at TE. Gronk, Hernandez, and Ballard, maybe a big new rookie in the draft

     

     



    i agree....im just making fun of the people who say we dont have enough weapons on offense. its absolutely ridiculous.

     

     



    With Gronk, the offense is fine.  Without him, it is far less formidable.  A lot of the success of the offense has to do with the QB and the coaching.  But some fans can't see that.  That's what's absolutely ridiculous. 

     

     



    Gronk makes all the difference in the red zone.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

    Building and maintaining a great team is hard to do when you're always winning and picking late in every round, though.

     




     

    Not really. When you have the elite QB you don't have to squander resources left and right in that search. Look at the number of teams that grope for years to find that guy. And for most of BB's tenure the teams getting the top 5 picks were paying our huge sums for those guys and in many cases that was more of a handicap than a blessing.

    Having the elite guy for 15 years is a HUGE advantage in team building, period.




    Right, and you don't have to put a sign up in front of the stadium reading, "looking for washed up stiffs and or former turds...can't pay much, but hopeful thousands will apply. When you fill out the application, tell them Haynesworth sent yah".

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to ClarkGriswold's comment:

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     




    lol

     

    What's funny is, the BBWs don't realize our suggestions are really intended to HELP Brady. People think that a suggestion to let the more finesse parts of our offense go (Welker, Woodhead), that it means we want to make it harder on Brady's job.

    They just don't get it.

    Two of the absolute MIRROR imaged offenses just won the the last two SBs: NY Giants, Baltimore Ravens.

    Why? Balance.

    Even with Ray Rice/Pierce or Jacobs/Bradshaw taken out of those respective games, it didn't matter. The run game was USED just enough to make their balance in the air be effective enough.

    You really didn't know where the ball would be going. We need to get that back here.

     




    We are a finesse team...both offense and defense...can't win that way. Period. It's NOT a byproduct of Tom Brady or what he wants to do, the guy wants to win. You can't say we didn't try to run it. You can't say we didn't try to improve the position, it just so happens we are probably slightly above average at best running the ball. Our recievers are about as finesse as you can get. Our most physical player on offense has been hurt the past two post seasons - I can guarantee that if he was healthy things would of been different, but he wasn't and we are not good enough to overcome that. Our defense is not very good - at their best they have proven that they can not win a game for this team when it's offense isn't playing well - at it's worst it's an embarrassment to this organization, the NFL and football in general.

    When Gronk and Jones went down in that Texan's game I thought...well that's it, things didn't bounce right again. Everyone else was cheering in the family room thinking we were going to the Super Bowl...I was thinking our season just went up in smoke.

    Draft for toughness, spend to the cap, mortgage a little bit of tomorrow for right now...this is it, this thing is coming to end...go for it.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    Dang, accidentally spelt goob and people quoted me

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

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    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)

     



    What are the categories? Honest question. I assume winning and Super Bowls is one. Stats and clutch factor is another.

     

    IMO, Montana is in those categories. 

    Toughest one to judge a Qb by is purely on stats. Rules of the game has changed so much. If the league trends the way its been going, 20 years from now, tons of QBs will be breaking statistical records, and it's not necessarily because they're better than today's QBs.

     




    Stats, Accolades, Winning, Intangibles.

     

    Brady beats Joe in stats hands down. Winning is pretty much a draw though you could argue Joe has a slight edge in this. Brady has an edge in accolades. I would also give Brady the edge in intangibles because he is FA/cap era and did not enjoy the GOAT WR for years - Joe does narrow that edge down with his running though.

    So, win, draw, edge, edge = Brady = GOAT.



    Here's the thing about your FA argument. Wes Welker may have never become a Pat because the Patriots pretty much got him once he became a RFA. Hate Welker or not, the man played a huge part in Brady's statistical success.

    Also, again with the stats, clearly this era is the best to be a QB. 3 5000 yard QBs last season, one this season, and another one in 08(?). Rodgers is probably going to finish his career with the best career passer rating, TD:INT ratio, INT%. Rookie Qb's in the past couple of years own pretty much every significant passing record.

    Matt Stafford will probably surpass Montana in stats as well, but he's no where near as good as him.

     

    I don't know if Joe wins all those Super Bowls without Rice, but he did win his first two without him. Some people forget that Joe won Super Bowls without Rice. And in terms of accolades, he has 2 MVPs and 3 Super Bowl MVPs...as well as 6 All Pro's. SO I don't see how Brady has an edge in accolades.

     

    Biggest argument you can make against Montana is the that he was on a Super Team for most of his career. But he was able to lead KC to an AFC Championship in the tail end of his career.

     

    I don't have a problem with you saying Brady is GOAT. But I think saying he beats Montana in accolades is incorrect, and the stat comparison is a bit misleading.

     
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