What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    They need two monster defensive linemen on either side of Wilfork and to slide Ninck and Chandler Jones to outside linebacker. 

    Magically the pass rush will improve to top of the league, the linebackers will be free to roam and make plays and the defensive backs (who lead the league in INT's every year anyway) will become one of the best units on third downs and fewest yards given up... but everybody here seems to want to put the horse before the cart and get more pass rushers or better corners than Talib and Dennard... as if it would help... it won't.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.




    Or instead how about, we just stop drafting like chumps Rustyclone?

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to ClarkGriswold's comment:

     

    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010, WEEI Radio

    It cannot be ignored.

     



    Yes it can. They restored that feature on the board dumbkoff.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

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    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)

     



    What are the categories? Honest question. I assume winning and Super Bowls is one. Stats and clutch factor is another.

     

    IMO, Montana is in those categories. 

    Toughest one to judge a Qb by is purely on stats. Rules of the game has changed so much. If the league trends the way its been going, 20 years from now, tons of QBs will be breaking statistical records, and it's not necessarily because they're better than today's QBs.

     




    Stats, Accolades, Winning, Intangibles.

     

    Brady beats Joe in stats hands down. Winning is pretty much a draw though you could argue Joe has a slight edge in this. Brady has an edge in accolades. I would also give Brady the edge in intangibles because he is FA/cap era and did not enjoy the GOAT WR for years - Joe does narrow that edge down with his running though.

    So, win, draw, edge, edge = Brady = GOAT.

     



    Here's the thing about your FA argument. Wes Welker may have never become a Pat because the Patriots pretty much got him once he became a RFA. Hate Welker or not, the man played a huge part in Brady's statistical success.

     

    Also, again with the stats, clearly this era is the best to be a QB. 3 5000 yard QBs last season, one this season, and another one in 08(?). Rodgers is probably going to finish his career with the best career passer rating, TD:INT ratio, INT%. Rookie Qb's in the past couple of years own pretty much every significant passing record.

    Matt Stafford will probably surpass Montana in stats as well, but he's no where near as good as him.

     

    I don't know if Joe wins all those Super Bowls without Rice, but he did win his first two without him. Some people forget that Joe won Super Bowls without Rice. And in terms of accolades, he has 2 MVPs and 3 Super Bowl MVPs...as well as 6 All Pro's. SO I don't see how Brady has an edge in accolades.

     

    Biggest argument you can make against Montana is the that he was on a Super Team for most of his career. But he was able to lead KC to an AFC Championship in the tail end of his career.

     

    I don't have a problem with you saying Brady is GOAT. But I think saying he beats Montana in accolades is incorrect, and the stat comparison is a bit misleading.




    Why do you feel Montana is equal or better than Brady in accolades?

     

    One note on "winning". Many believe the NFC was superior during Montana's SB win years. If so, that would mean the NFC Championship was the "real SB". Montana's record in that is pretty weak.

    So really, in that regard, Montana's great claim to fame is beating up on inferior AFC rivals in the SB.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to ClarkGriswold's comment:

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    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     




    lol

     

    What's funny is, the BBWs don't realize our suggestions are really intended to HELP Brady. People think that a suggestion to let the more finesse parts of our offense go (Welker, Woodhead), that it means we want to make it harder on Brady's job.

    They just don't get it.

    Two of the absolute MIRROR imaged offenses just won the the last two SBs: NY Giants, Baltimore Ravens.

    Why? Balance.

    Even with Ray Rice/Pierce or Jacobs/Bradshaw taken out of those respective games, it didn't matter. The run game was USED just enough to make their balance in the air be effective enough.

    You really didn't know where the ball would be going. We need to get that back here.

     

     




    We are a finesse team...both offense and defense...can't win that way. Period. It's NOT a byproduct of Tom Brady or what he wants to do, the guy wants to win. You can't say we didn't try to run it. You can't say we didn't try to improve the position, it just so happens we are probably slightly above average at best running the ball. Our recievers are about as finesse as you can get. Our most physical player on offense has been hurt the past two post seasons - I can guarantee that if he was healthy things would of been different, but he wasn't and we are not good enough to overcome that. Our defense is not very good - at their best they have proven that they can not win a game for this team when it's offense isn't playing well - at it's worst it's an embarrassment to this organization, the NFL and football in general.

     

    When Gronk and Jones went down in that Texan's game I thought...well that's it, things didn't bounce right again. Everyone else was cheering in the family room thinking we were going to the Super Bowl...I was thinking our season just went up in smoke.

    Draft for toughness, spend to the cap, mortgage a little bit of tomorrow for right now...this is it, this thing is coming to end...go for it.

     




    I don't think the D is finesse at all.  I think every D in this league is up against the wall in fear of penalties.   That's pretty clear. A phantom PI or roughing is always on the back of their minds. Heck, we saw Hightower flagged on a 3rd down vs Houston on a bang/bang play. In fact, we saw NUMEROUS physical plays, one a Mayo strip on Foster that somehow was blown dead.  Hmmm.

     

    Sure seems like our D is up agaisnt the wall more than our 2001-2004 one, wouldn't you say? I would.

    Wilfork, Spikes, Nink, Hightower, etc, are not finesse players. Those are physical players.  Heck, we;ve seen Mayo be plenty physical laying guys out, too.

    But, the offense is CLEARLY finesse. I think that's the difference. Mankins is physical and Gronk. That's really it.

    Ridley is a physical runner, but he's also prone to putting the ball on the ground and needs to learn how to take a hit once through the line.  A little more conservative style once through the line is needed there.

    Bolden runs hard, I think. But, overall a non-FB infused run game that passes more than it runs with in between the hash route runners as the focal point, is a finesse offense.

    Our D is "an embarrassment" to the NFL? Are you serious? S The last 3 years, they've led the AFC or the league in popping balls loose and/OR InTs?  That's "embarrassing" to you?  The Jets allowed like 6 straight 150 yard games on the ground earlier this year. THAT is embarrassing. So, what was Denver's, Houston's, GB's, NOs, etc?    THose Ds were either overrated by the media or flat out BAD.  NOs couldn't stop a nosebleed.

    The D was very good in last year's postseason.  This year, they missed Talib and Jones, no doubt.

    What's an embarrassment, dude, and I can tell you this absolutely POINT BLANK, as someone who has lived out of the NE area for over 10 years now:   Every casual or non Pats fan is wondering just what on god's green earth is going on with Brady and this lethal offense when January rolls around and they disappear.  And you know what?  All I can say is "their offense is finesse and one too one dimensional" and they wonder why they hear it every year.  

    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010, WEEI Radio

    It cannot be ignored.

    All that money vested in the offense and then it scampers away when the chips are on the table in the postseason.

    THAT is an embarrassment to me. THAT is. Not the youngest Din the league that BB wisely used to draft and cultivate off the lockout. Sorry.

    This goes back to SB 42.  World record breaking offense and they eek out 14 points?  Christ, I was heckled for months after that by my non Pats fan friends.  I still am.

    There's nothing I can say about it other than "I agree, it's a joke" and that I hate our finesse offense in this era.

     




    What I said was when this defense plays poorly, they play so poorly that it's embarrassing. And I do think this defense is a bit finesse - you are right that we have some big, physical linebackers and Wilfork, but the people standing next to Wilfork aren't very good. I would also say our safeties are far from intimidating. I do think the NFL's rule enforcement has made it very tough on offenses, but there are 28 defenses that are better than us against the pass...that's not good. Being that low in pass defense - to go alond with being in the middle of the pack in just about everything else - is not good enough.

    Having big linebackers means very little when you don't have pass rushing linemen, because it does something very bad/mean to those big linebackers...makes them try to hang in covergae way too long. And not having a safety that can fly into the box and be effective hurts the entire defense, it makes them predictable. Imagine being an offensive coordinator going against this bunch? Well they can't bring in McCourty or Chung on a blitz, so we know we don't have to worry about that...and Gregory will be physically outmatched wherever they put him...so we don't have to worry there either. So for the most part we know exactly where these guys are going to be - no surprises - no worries....easy. And their linebackers can't cover...we know that...so lets get them running underneath...there will be no rush and we can get those guys as far away from the line of scrimmage as humanly possible. If they decide to blitz - let's be honest, they aren't very good at it - but if they do...their corners and safeties will be exposed.

    You can talk all day long about being predictable on offense, but going against this defense has got to be the easiest thing to prepare for in the NFL. There is no more "creative packages and coverages"...there is no more extotic blitzes and pressure. They no longer have guys that can do a multiple of things well. We are a bland, mediocre defense.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    he needs to play elite in the post season.  Look how quarterback play is a factor in winning.

    1 Joe Flacco, QB BAL 73 126 57.9 1,140 9.05 70 11 0 6 117.2 285 2 Matt Ryan, QB ATL 54 77 70.1 646 8.39 47 6 3 1 105.2 323 3 Russell Wilson, QB SEA 39 62 62.9 572 9.23 34 3 1 7 102.4 286 4 Colin Kaepernick, QB SF 49 80 61.3 798 9.98 45 4 2 5 100.9 266 5 Aaron Rodgers, QB GB 49 72 68.1 531 7.38 44 3 1 4 97.6 266 6 Peyton Manning, QB DEN 28 43 65.1 290 6.74 32 3 2 3 88.3 290 7 Matt Schaub, QB HOU 63 89 70.8 605 6.80 28 2 2 1 87.5 303 8 Tom Brady, QB NE 54 94 57.4 664 7.06 47 4 2 1 84.7 332 9 Robert Griffin III, QB WSH 10 19 52.6 84 4.42 30 2 1 2 77.5 84 10 Andrew Luck, QB IND 28 54 51.9 288 5.33 25 0 1 3 59.8 288
     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    Both Hernandez and Gronkowski health in the playoffs

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    To answer the question in the thread...I'd like the greatest QB of all time to play like one when the games really count, against a physical defense.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    Gronk should be in the sidelines in extra points...

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to ClarkGriswold's comment:

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    hey just don't get it.

    Two of the absolute MIRROR imaged offenses just won the the last two SBs: NY Giants, Baltimore Ravens.

    Why? Balance.

     

     




    We are a finesse team...both offense and defense...can't win that way. Period. It's NOT a byproduct of Tom Brady or what he wants to do, the guy wants to win. You can't say we didn't try to run it. You can't say we didn't try to improve the position, it just so happens we are probably slightly above average at best running the ball. Our recievers are about as finesse as you can get. Our most physical player on offense has been hurt the past two post seasons - I can guarantee that if he was healthy things would of been different, but he wasn't and we are not good enough to overcome that. Our defense is not very good - at their best they have proven that they can not win a game for this team when it's offense isn't playing well - at it's worst it's an embarrassment to this organization, the NFL and football in general.

     

    When Gronk and Jones went down in that Texan's game I thought...well that's it, things didn't bounce right again. Everyone else was cheering in the family room thinking we were going to the Super Bowl...I was thinking our season just went up in smoke.

    Draft for toughness, spend to the cap, mortgage a little bit of tomorrow for right now...this is it, this thing is coming to end...go for it.

     




    I don't think the D is finesse at all.  I think every D in this league is up against the wall in fear of penalties.   That's pretty clear. A phantom PI or roughing is always on the back of their minds. Heck, we saw Hightower flagged on a 3rd down vs Houston on a bang/bang play. In fact, we saw NUMEROUS physical plays, one a Mayo strip on Foster that somehow was blown dead.  Hmmm.

     

    Sure seems like our D is up agaisnt the wall more than our 2001-2004 one, wouldn't you say? I would.

    Wilfork, Spikes, Nink, Hightower, etc, are not finesse players. Those are physical players.  Heck, we;ve seen Mayo be plenty physical laying guys out, too.

    But, the offense is CLEARLY finesse. I think that's the difference. Mankins is physical and Gronk. That's really it.

    Ridley is a physical runner, but he's also prone to putting the ball on the ground and needs to learn how to take a hit once through the line.  A little more conservative style once through the line is needed there.

    Bolden runs hard, I think. But, overall a non-FB infused run game that passes more than it runs with in between the hash route runners as the focal point, is a finesse offense.

    Our D is "an embarrassment" to the NFL? Are you serious? S The last 3 years, they've led the AFC or the league in popping balls loose and/OR InTs?  That's "embarrassing" to you?  The Jets allowed like 6 straight 150 yard games on the ground earlier this year. THAT is embarrassing. So, what was Denver's, Houston's, GB's, NOs, etc?    THose Ds were either overrated by the media or flat out BAD.  NOs couldn't stop a nosebleed.

    The D was very good in last year's postseason.  This year, they missed Talib and Jones, no doubt.

    What's an embarrassment, dude, and I can tell you this absolutely POINT BLANK, as someone who has lived out of the NE area for over 10 years now:   Every casual or non Pats fan is wondering just what on god's green earth is going on with Brady and this lethal offense when January rolls around and they disappear.  And you know what?  All I can say is "their offense is finesse and one too one dimensional" and they wonder why they hear it every year.  

    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010, WEEI Radio

    It cannot be ignored.

    All that money vested in the offense and then it scampers away when the chips are on the table in the postseason.

    THAT is an embarrassment to me. THAT is. Not the youngest Din the league that BB wisely used to draft and cultivate off the lockout. Sorry.

    This goes back to SB 42.  World record breaking offense and they eek out 14 points?  Christ, I was heckled for months after that by my non Pats fan friends.  I still am.

    There's nothing I can say about it other than "I agree, it's a joke" and that I hate our finesse offense in this era.

     

     




    What I said was when this defense plays poorly, they play so poorly that it's embarrassing. And I do think this defense is a bit finesse - you are right that we have some big, physical linebackers and Wilfork, but the people standing next to Wilfork aren't very good. I would also say our safeties are far from intimidating. I do think the NFL's rule enforcement has made it very tough on offenses, but there are 28 defenses that are better than us against the pass...that's not good. Being that low in pass defense - to go alond with being in the middle of the pack in just about everything else - is not good enough.

     

    Having big linebackers means very little when you don't have pass rushing linemen, because it does something very bad/mean to those big linebackers...makes them try to hang in covergae way too long. And not having a safety that can fly into the box and be effective hurts the entire defense, it makes them predictable. Imagine being an offensive coordinator going against this bunch? Well they can't bring in McCourty or Chung on a blitz, so we know we don't have to worry about that...and Gregory will be physically outmatched wherever they put him...so we don't have to worry there either. So for the most part we know exactly where these guys are going to be - no surprises - no worries....easy. And their linebackers can't cover...we know that...so lets get them running underneath...there will be no rush and we can get those guys as far away from the line of scrimmage as humanly possible. If they decide to blitz - let's be honest, they aren't very good at it - but if they do...their corners and safeties will be exposed.

    You can talk all day long about being predictable on offense, but going against this defense has got to be the easiest thing to prepare for in the NFL. There is no more "creative packages and coverages"...there is no more extotic blitzes and pressure. They no longer have guys that can do a multiple of things well. We are a bland, mediocre defense.

     



    I disagree.  There are 28 defenses last eyar that cared more and put more into defending the pass in between the 20s, but many of those gave up more points.  Again, defenses have always been rated by yards allowed.  Are we seriously still at that point where we're not admitting it's clearly a very dumb metric in this day and age?

     

    Teams make their money in the red zone. That's what it's about. Our offense sort of sucks in the red zone in the postseason. Meanwhile, our D is actually quite good in the red zone. Last year, in the SB, for example they allowed 1 TD, 2 Fgs, etc, before they last Giants drive where NE's D was clearly gassed. WHose wouldn't be at that point?  An overloaded dome, it's hot, halftime show, etc. Look at SF's and Balt's Ds.  How did they look at the end?

    It's a war of attrition.  BB  knows this. It's that simple. A wind em up 4-3, pin back your ears for 16 + games Pete Carroll D, I don't see winning a SB because of how that toll adds up over the course of the year.

    Frankly, I don't care how a BB D looks in Sept or Oct. I want to know how they are looking in Nov and December.  Since when do Pats fans seriously care this much about pointless stats?

    I care about how many turnovers they can generate, run D, red zone D and holds.  That's it.  Sacks will come from a group effort and we've seen an improvement in that area the last 2 years. I expect that to improve again next year.

    Since 2007, where many have looked to point the finger at everyone but Brady and the offensive philosophy, more and more of our online fans care more about these peripheral stats that mean basically squat.

    Also, there were MANY games this year (and every year), where BB called off the dogs with massive leads against bad teams, where the yards or points against NE's D weren't really legit in terms of a gameplan being followed. So, yards allowed in a soft, prevent D in the 3rd and 4th qtr with a 34-7 lead, for example are completely meaningless to me.

    I agree we need a Safety to pair with McCOurty and one more pass rushers on the D front. I disagree with saying guys like Love, Deaderick and Francis just "aren't very good". They're good against the run as a group, usually taking that stuff out by halftime.  Francis intrigues me. Jones clearly was well on his way to DROY before the ankle sprain. So, I disagree with this "everyone but Wilfork" routine.

    But, sure an infusion piece there would help (just like it would any NFL defensive front), because it might make someone like Nink a better player than he already is.  

    Finally, I don't think you appreciate that many QBs in this league KILL the blitz. It's about disguising, timing and also a veteran D is helpful. The one thing BB hasn't had recently and obviously, is a veteran D.  What do you want?  You want him to be buying pricey vets the last 2 years to gamble for it all in a 2 year window, weakening the rest of the club in the process?

    He's got some continuity now without question, so I think the more you keep around, the better. That includes a guy like Arrington, who they need to resign. Keep him in the slot. Develop Wilson for TE packages and mid field coverages. He looked pretty good in that role later in the year.

    Talib and Dennard will be a great duo if they can somehow lock Talib down.  They have some leverage there, and can probably get a talented CB under market due to other teams' fears.  I say it's worth the gamble. I think he knows he can parlay his time here into a bigger deal if he just stays straight.  Call his bluff.  1 year deal?  2 year?  Ok.  3 maybe, but we'll name the price.

    Again, if Talib and Jones play in that game, it's quite possible we win. It is what it is. You need luck with injuries. I say it every year.  Cross your fingers and pray for health.

    However, I'd rather my offense doesn't crap the bed every January or February in an offensive era.

    The problem isn't going away unless they make it go away.

     

     



    Couple of things I don't agree with here...one, I don't want to see them spend money on older players at the tail end of their careers (that's what we've been doing for far too long now), I want to see them sign someone either in their prime, or heading towards their prime. Two, I don't like this turnover defense stuff - it's kind of like live by the sword, die by the sword..turnovers are great...when they happen, but too many times you just can't count on them happening. Which leads me to pressure - we need pressure players, or at least enough of them that can pressure. I don't think sacks are overrated - they create turnovers, bad decisions, poor field position, desperation, intimidation, 3rd and longs. I want that stuff.

    I don't think you can neccesarily say team defense is going to create pressure or just say we are going to do it as a group effort type of thing. Players that can't pass rush do one thing...get blocked. They get tied up on a blocker while the quarterback gets real confident and comfortable in the pocket - next thing you know average QB's start throwing the hell out of the ball on us.

    I'm not anywhere near convinced Tavon Wilson will magically be our answer for a guy to cover tight ends. Aside from him giving us absolutely nothing his rookie year - and I mean nothing - he is not big, he just isn't. He's not fast either and from everything I read late in the season last year...he didn't grasp things all too well.

    This part I totally disagree with...Also, there were MANY games this year (and every year), where BB called off the dogs with massive leads against bad teams, where the yards or points against NE's D weren't really legit in terms of a gameplan being followed. So, yards allowed in a soft, prevent D in the 3rd and 4th qtr with a 34-7 lead, for example are completely meaningless to me. Bill wouldn't call the dogs off against his mother, but I get your point - but the truth is those teams that we were killing HAD to pass, yet we still couldn't pressure or stop the pass. Those were situations where a better defense would of had a god damn field day on oppossing quarterbacks - that is when you see those 5-8 sack games...we couldn't do that.

    I'm not sure what the media's love affair is with Francis..what's the excitment with him? He's not fast, he's not big, he didn't really do much of anything for us. He has really long arms and it looks like his hands are huge, but I didn't see anything special out of him...although I'm more excited about him than I am towards Tavon Wilson. I love Chandler Jones because right away you could see he was a legitimate football player - not some project...not some feel good story, just a talent...and a talent that actually is doing it. I will reserve judgment on Francis though, because there just wasn't a whole lot to go off of.

    I do agree that we have improved some on defense this year and maybe we aren't that far off, but we are going to need free agency to help this year. We can't expect young kids to come in here and contribute - it would be nice - but when you pick as low in the draft as we do, it's hard. No more old, washed up players that are low risk, high reward. Enough. Sign a guy heading into his prime - sign Goldson.

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    Bingo. Right on the money.

     

    We need better coaching in the playoffs.

     

    We need to play with more emotion and motivation in the playoffs.

     

    Brady is the first one I need to look in the mirror.

     

    In response to digger0862's comment:

    The Ravens finished the regular season losing 4 out of their last 5 games, beating only the lowly Giants. They stepped it up in the playoffs. The Patriots need to raise their level of play come playoff time. Instead they lay down.




     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to ClarkGriswold's comment:

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    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010, WEEI Radio

    It cannot be ignored.

     

     

     



    Yes it can. They restored that feature on the board dumbkoff.

     




    "I prefer the shogtun."  T. Brady, 2010, WEEI Radio

     

     




    So toolbox, is this the extent of your evidence that Brady has turned BB into a whimpering stooge and is really the man running the show in Foxboro?

     

     
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    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to ClarkGriswold's comment:

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     

    TWO MIRROR IMAGES?  Well both O's got to play the worst D to ever step on a field.

    That's for dam sure 114DPR. PFFFTTT

    Crusty, NO team in the history of the NFL has ever won with a DPR of over 87.

    Deal with it.

    The Difference is their D's helped instead of hindered the D.

    A FREAKEN PICKLESS DEFENSE!  4/4 in the RZ .  Just take it out back and shoot it but make sure you wash all them balls first.  Yup, all 27 pairs.


    lol

     

    What's funny is, the BBWs don't realize our suggestions are really intended to HELP Brady. People think that a suggestion to let the more finesse parts of our offense go (Welker, Woodhead), that it means we want to make it harder on Brady's job.

    They just don't get it.

    Two of the absolute MIRROR imaged offenses just won the the last two SBs: NY Giants, Baltimore Ravens.

    Why? Balance.

    Even with Ray Rice/Pierce or Jacobs/Bradshaw taken out of those respective games, it didn't matter. The run game was USED just enough to make their balance in the air be effective enough.

    You really didn't know where the ball would be going. We need to get that back here.

     




     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)

     



    What are the categories? Honest question. I assume winning and Super Bowls is one. Stats and clutch factor is another.

     

    IMO, Montana is in those categories. 

    Toughest one to judge a Qb by is purely on stats. Rules of the game has changed so much. If the league trends the way its been going, 20 years from now, tons of QBs will be breaking statistical records, and it's not necessarily because they're better than today's QBs.

     




    Stats, Accolades, Winning, Intangibles.

     

    Brady beats Joe in stats hands down. Winning is pretty much a draw though you could argue Joe has a slight edge in this. Brady has an edge in accolades. I would also give Brady the edge in intangibles because he is FA/cap era and did not enjoy the GOAT WR for years - Joe does narrow that edge down with his running though.

    So, win, draw, edge, edge = Brady = GOAT.

     



    Here's the thing about your FA argument. Wes Welker may have never become a Pat because the Patriots pretty much got him once he became a RFA. Hate Welker or not, the man played a huge part in Brady's statistical success.

     

    Also, again with the stats, clearly this era is the best to be a QB. 3 5000 yard QBs last season, one this season, and another one in 08(?). Rodgers is probably going to finish his career with the best career passer rating, TD:INT ratio, INT%. Rookie Qb's in the past couple of years own pretty much every significant passing record.

    Matt Stafford will probably surpass Montana in stats as well, but he's no where near as good as him.

     

    I don't know if Joe wins all those Super Bowls without Rice, but he did win his first two without him. Some people forget that Joe won Super Bowls without Rice. And in terms of accolades, he has 2 MVPs and 3 Super Bowl MVPs...as well as 6 All Pro's. SO I don't see how Brady has an edge in accolades.

     

    Biggest argument you can make against Montana is the that he was on a Super Team for most of his career. But he was able to lead KC to an AFC Championship in the tail end of his career.

     

    I don't have a problem with you saying Brady is GOAT. But I think saying he beats Montana in accolades is incorrect, and the stat comparison is a bit misleading.

     




    Why do you feel Montana is equal or better than Brady in accolades?

     

     

    One note on "winning". Many believe the NFC was superior during Montana's SB win years. If so, that would mean the NFC Championship was the "real SB". Montana's record in that is pretty weak.

    So really, in that regard, Montana's great claim to fame is beating up on inferior AFC rivals in the SB.

     



    Well, I'm just trying to figure out what accolades Brady has more of than Montana.

     

    He played 12 seasons of at least 10 games. 8 x Pro bowls, 6 x All Pro, 3 x Super Bowl MVP, 2 x MVP, 1 x Offensive Player of the Year

    Brady 11 seasons. 8 x Pro bowls, 2 x All Pro, 2 x Super Bowl MVP, 2 x MVP, 2 x Offensive Player of the year.

    I don't see where the edge is for Brady outside of an offensive player of the year. Explain the accolades your talking about. I'm pretty sure I have most of them outside of the player of the week/month type of awards.

     

    Montana's Super Bowl opposition wasn't the strongest, but he has some damn good Super Bowl numbers. A Super Bowl victory is a Super Bowl victory though. It's like saying Brady's claim to fame of getting to AFC Championships and Super Bowls shouldn't count because he played in an extremely easy division which paved the way to a lot of playoff byes.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

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    we should just build a team madden style... sign an all pro at every position....trade our crappy players for some great players...line up marshall and aj green on the outside, gronk and jimmy graham as tight ends, AP in the backfield. then maybe brady will get his head out of his a.ss come playoff time.

     



    I think we're all set at TE. Gronk, Hernandez, and Ballard, maybe a big new rookie in the draft

     

     



    i agree....im just making fun of the people who say we dont have enough weapons on offense. its absolutely ridiculous.

     

     



    With Gronk, the offense is fine.  Without him, it is far less formidable.  A lot of the success of the offense has to do with the QB and the coaching.  But some fans can't see that.  That's what's absolutely ridiculous. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE/]

     

    it definitely hurt the offense to be without gronk, but they were doing fine during the regular season and the first playoff game without him.....they were actually scoring more points on average, without him. they definitely could have used him against the ravens, but they still had plenty enough of weapons to get the job done and they didnt. is it all on brady? no, the team didnt play great as a whole, but when you play as poorly as he did that game, and has in all afc title games/super bowls since 2007, yes you deserve some of the blame. 



    We did fine against the Texans and a pathetic Jets team, but those games against Miami and Jax weren't stellar offensive performances. Those games were a warning I think. The first half against SF was also not great. Brady led a nice second half come back, but overall the offense wasn't that great against SF. 

     
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