What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     



    Saying those guys aren't elite?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     



    Saying those guys aren't elite?

     



    No, not at all.  I know those guys are although some might argue against Brees but Big Ben , Eli and Flacco?  I don't think so.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     



    Saying those guys aren't elite?

     

     



    No, not at all.  I know those guys are although some might argue against Brees but Big Ben , Eli and Flacco?  I don't think so.

     

     



    Brees, Brady, Rodgers, and Manning are all QBs who can completely take over a game, and do it on a regular basis. Brees had a down year and probably the worst of the 4, but he's still elite and has a good chance to make the HOF.

     

    Because of how good these guys are, they fetch big contracts that make it difficult to maintain/acquire talent.

    GM's need to do a better job of drafting/developing players.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     



    Saying those guys aren't elite?

     

     



    No, not at all.  I know those guys are although some might argue against Brees but Big Ben , Eli and Flacco?  I don't think so.

     

     

     



    Brees, Brady, Rodgers, and Manning are all QBs who can completely take over a game, and do it on a regular basis. Brees had a down year and probably the worst of the 4, but he's still elite and has a good chance to make the HOF.

     

     

    Because of how good these guys are, they fetch big contracts that make it difficult to maintain/acquire talent.

    GM's need to do a better job of drafting/developing players.



    Okay, so why hasn't Brady "taken over" a playoff game in the last 5 or 6 yrs. or so?

    The GM? 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     



    Saying those guys aren't elite?

     

     



    No, not at all.  I know those guys are although some might argue against Brees but Big Ben , Eli and Flacco?  I don't think so.

     

     

     



    Brees, Brady, Rodgers, and Manning are all QBs who can completely take over a game, and do it on a regular basis. Brees had a down year and probably the worst of the 4, but he's still elite and has a good chance to make the HOF.

     

     

    Because of how good these guys are, they fetch big contracts that make it difficult to maintain/acquire talent.

    GM's need to do a better job of drafting/developing players.

     



    Okay, so why hasn't Brady "taken over" a playoff game in the last 5 or 6 yrs. or so?

     

    The GM? 



    He needs to play better, no doubt about it. His playoff struggles have been a concern. And I wouldn't say he's taken over a game in 5 or 6 years, he did pretty well against HOU and DEN...He just hasn't been consistent.

    Defense needs to make a play as well. Game changing turnovers are something that hasn't happened in big games.

    Ravens in 2012: Corey Graham INT, Pollard forced fumble, two turnovers in the Super Bowl...but more importantly, the goal line stand

    Giants in 2011: Special teams recovered two fumbles in the championship game. Safety was big in the Super Bowl

    Packers in 2010: Raji in the Championship game, Clay Matthews forced fumbled and Collins INT TD.

    Colts in 2009: Tracy Porter INT

    Steelers in 2008: Harrison 100 INT TD

    Giants in 2007: Dline came up huge

    And i can go on and on.

     

    As well as Brady played in those championship runs, we don't win the Super Bowl without the defense making key plays.

    Brady needs to play better, but the defense needs to make some plays as well

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    The Ravens finished the regular season losing 4 out of their last 5 games, beating only the lowly Giants. They stepped it up in the playoffs. The Patriots need to raise their level of play come playoff time. Instead they lay down.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    I would say that when you give up 28 points in your first playoff game (the one you won) and then 28 points in your next (the one you lost) - clearly you need your quarterback to learn how to play defense. Who the hell does Brady think he is? All he had to do was learn how to pass rush...that's it. We don't need to go out and get anybody (sign someone, draft someone), just have him do it. I mean, he's tall...he has long arms. Put his spoiled hand in the dirt and have him smash heads with left tackles. If he can do that, then we won't have to worry about our weak secondary or linebackers that can't cover. And we no longer have to worry about him throwing to one slot reciever and one tightend in the playoffs (for two years in a row) either. We also won't have to worry about him handing the ball off to average running backs too.

    So I think it's pretty simple, Brady has the frame to be a pass rusher - Belichick is a defensive genius - make your Greatest QB of all Time a pass rusher. It's the least he could do.

     
  9. This post has been removed.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    I would say that when you give up 28 points in your first playoff game (the one you won) and then 28 points in your next (the one you lost) - clearly you need your quarterback to learn how to play defense. Who the hell does Brady think he is? All he had to do was learn how to pass rush...that's it. We don't need to go out and get anybody (sign someone, draft someone), just have him do it. I mean, he's tall...he has long arms. Put his spoiled hand in the dirt and have him smash heads with left tackles. If he can do that, then we won't have to worry about our weak secondary or linebackers that can't cover. And we no longer have to worry about him throwing to one slot reciever and one tightend in the playoffs (for two years in a row) either. We also won't have to worry about him handing the ball off to average running backs too.

    So I think it's pretty simple, Brady has the frame to be a pass rusher - Belichick is a defensive genius - make your Greatest QB of all Time a pass rusher. It's the least he could do.



    So a great pass rusher then is it?

    I thought the Pats would be able to overcome some of their deficiencies with the play of the Greatest QB of all time.

    You know, like scoring more points and making less mistakes in big games against good teams.  

    A great pass rusher is the key to get Brady to play better?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    I would say that when you give up 28 points in your first playoff game (the one you won) and then 28 points in your next (the one you lost) - clearly you need your quarterback to learn how to play defense. Who the hell does Brady think he is? All he had to do was learn how to pass rush...that's it. We don't need to go out and get anybody (sign someone, draft someone), just have him do it. I mean, he's tall...he has long arms. Put his spoiled hand in the dirt and have him smash heads with left tackles. If he can do that, then we won't have to worry about our weak secondary or linebackers that can't cover. And we no longer have to worry about him throwing to one slot reciever and one tightend in the playoffs (for two years in a row) either. We also won't have to worry about him handing the ball off to average running backs too.

    So I think it's pretty simple, Brady has the frame to be a pass rusher - Belichick is a defensive genius - make your Greatest QB of all Time a pass rusher. It's the least he could do.



    Glad you're here to help me "learn the game".

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    Making the playoffs is step one--something only 6 AFC teams do each year and something the Pats have done just about every year with Brady.  All the bashers of Brady and the offensive philosophy really need to put that in their pipe and smoke it for a while.  It's quite an accomplishment in its own right. 

    Beyond that, what's required to win it all is a bit of luck, a lack of injuries, good coaching, good players, a team that's fairly complete on defense, offense, and special teams, and good execution.  I think the Pats' coaching is always good--unlike some, I'm not complaining about either offensive or defensive philosophy, schemes, game planning, or play-calling.  I think the Pats are great at all of that.  

    The real problem, I think, is we never seem to get into the playoffs with a team that's complete enough, talented enough, or free enough from injuries.  In both Super Bowls against the Giants we played a team with a great defensive line while at least two of our starting O-linemen were not 100%.  The loss of Welker in 2009, and of Gronk in 2011 and 2012, were both difficult injuries for the offense to compensate for.  We've also suffered from offenses that have been far too one-dimensional, not because of play calling, but because of one-dimensional talent: weak running backs until this year and a lack of deep receivers since Moss left.  The offense is good, but it's far too dependent on the short passing game.  We need more diversity.  We got more diverse this year with improved running backs, but by the playoffs the receiving corp had been depleted to the point of being a weakness. 

    Then there's the defense.  We simply can't rely on the defense to keep us in tight games.  The run defense has often been good, but the pass defense has been dismal for years.  We need better talent in the DBs, we need a pass rush, and we need better coverage from our LBs.  

    Great coaching and a great QB together get us to the brink of a championship every year.  (Oddly, those are the two things that certain frequent posters on here bash constantly.)  But we need a complete team--with more consistent talent across more areas than we have now. 

    Building and maintaining a great team is hard to do when you're always winning and picking late in every round, though. The draft is designed to make the good teams worse and the bad teams better.  In addition, the salary cap makes it hard to build a team through free agency--and this creates even greater challenges for teams that are disadvantaged in the draft and can't stockpile good young players coming out of college. Belichick has done a great job fighting to keep the team competitive despite these disadvantages and challenges, but he hasn't been able to completely overcome a system that is purposely designed to make teams like the Pats weaker. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     



    have posted this all around the site:

    free agent safety goldson.byrd

    fa pass rusher

    mayby fa cover lineabcker

    draft xavikkwer rhodes big tough corner 6 2 215 in rd 1

    big outside wr in rd 2

    rd 3 improve o line, draft safety ie bacarri rambo, cover lb, or dt

    if no fa then draft pass russher (#1 need) ansah, detone jones, jordan, okafor

    rd 2 cb (#2 need)

    rd 3 wr (# 3 need big outside wr who can spearate and has good hands, compete for the ball)

    #2 and 3 can be reversed if necessary to get the players we need as draft falls.

    use 2014 picks to move up if necesaary.

    float mallet for a higher draft pick. if our backuop sees the field we wotn win a sb anyway so wed pikc up the best fa qb avalable or play for lower draft pick in offseason if brady wnet down.

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Making the playoffs is step one--something only 6 AFC teams do each year and something the Pats have done just about every year with Brady.  All the bashers of Brady and the offensive philosophy really need to put that in their pipe and smoke it for a while.  It's quite an accomplishment in its own right. 

    Beyond that, what's required to win it all is a bit of luck, a lack of injuries, good coaching, good players, a team that's fairly complete on defense, offense, and special teams, and good execution.  I think the Pats' coaching is always good--unlike some, I'm not complaining about either offensive or defensive philosophy, schemes, game planning, or play-calling.  I think the Pats are great at all of that.  

    The real problem, I think, is we never seem to get into the playoffs with a team that's complete enough, talented enough, or free enough from injuries.  In both Super Bowls against the Giants we played a team with a great defensive line while at least two of our starting O-linemen were not 100%.  The loss of Welker in 2009, and of Gronk in 2011 and 2012, were both difficult injuries for the offense to compensate for.  We've also suffered from offenses that have been far too one-dimensional, not because of play calling, but because of one-dimensional talent: weak running backs until this year and a lack of deep receivers since Moss left.  The offense is good, but it's far too dependent on the short passing game.  We need more diversity.  We got more diverse this year with improved running backs, but by the playoffs the receiving corp had been depleted to the point of being a weakness. 

    Then there's the defense.  We simply can't rely on the defense to keep us in tight games.  The run defense has often been good, but the pass defense has been dismal for years.  We need better talent in the DBs, we need a pass rush, and we need better coverage from our LBs.  

    Great coaching and a great QB together get us to the brink of a championship every year.  (Oddly, those are the two things that certain frequent posters on here bash constantly.)  But we need a complete team--with more consistent talent across more areas than we have now. 

    Building and maintaining a great team is hard to do when you're always winning and picking late in every round, though. The draft is designed to make the good teams worse and the bad teams better.  In addition, the salary cap makes it hard to build a team through free agency--and this creates even greater challenges for teams that are disadvantaged in the draft and can't stockpile good young players coming out of college. Belichick has done a great job fighting to keep the team competitive despite these disadvantages and challenges, but he hasn't been able to completely overcome a system that is purposely designed to make teams like the Pats weaker. 



    Best reply so far. 

    FWIW, I'm not trying to start a Brady bashing thread.

    But obviously, if the greatest ever is not the problem I wanted to see what folks thought is the real problem.

    If some people want to use the moniker GOAT then you have to think he would have been able to bring them over the top just once in these past seven or eight seasons after all he would get the lion's share of credit if they win so why not some of blame when they lose.

    I guess they've been over-achieving all these years because of Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to bredbru's comment:

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    I've been reading many threads between the two factions of Brady is the GOAT and Brady needs to play better in the playoffs.

    So, what does the GOAT QB need to win the next championship for the NE Patriots?

    Is it a better O line?

    A better slot receiver?

    Better tight ends?

    Better running backs?

    A deep threat? Like when Moss was on the team? (Don't recall winning a SB with him)

    One of the best Head Coaches of all time?

    How 'bout a great Defense?

    Great Special Teams?

    Does a GOAT QB need everyone else around him to be great also?

    Does he need the whole team to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs?  (I know this is impossible or very unlikely)

    Last I checked some not so great QB's won superbowls.  Decent QB's but some who might not be called elite or great.

    Ben Roethlishberger (2x)

    Eli Manning (2x) 

    Aaron Rogers (1x) 

    Peyton Manning (1x)

    Drew Brees (1x)

    Joe Flacco (1x)

    Some of those teams admittedly had some good Defenses some not so good but maybe played adequately in the playoffs to support their offense's efforts.

    Does he need his defense to hold other teams under say 20 points per game?

    Or, is the key to winning it all is having a very good defense and maybe not the greatest qb ever but one who is just adequate enough at managing the offense? 

    This is not a jab at Brady.  I just want to know what folks think it will take for the Pats to get over the top.  If they already have the Greatest QB of all time, what else do they need?

    I'm still just trying to "learn the game" so help me out here.

     

     

     



    have posted this all around the site:

     

    free agent safety goldson.byrd

    fa pass rusher

    mayby fa cover lineabcker

    draft xavikkwer rhodes big tough corner 6 2 215 in rd 1

    big outside wr in rd 2

    rd 3 improve o line, draft safety ie bacarri rambo, cover lb, or dt

    if no fa then draft pass russher (#1 need) ansah, detone jones, jordan, okafor

    rd 2 cb (#2 need)

    rd 3 wr (# 3 need big outside wr who can spearate and has good hands, compete for the ball)

    #2 and 3 can be reversed if necessary to get the players we need as draft falls.

    use 2014 picks to move up if necesaary.

    float mallet for a higher draft pick. if our backuop sees the field we wotn win a sb anyway so wed pikc up the best fa qb avalable or play for lower draft pick in offseason if brady wnet down.

     

     



    Wow!  The Pats are in worse shape than I thought.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    The only need the Patriots have is to play better in the playoffs. They do have many wants.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Building and maintaining a great team is hard to do when you're always winning and picking late in every round, though.




    Not really. When you have the elite QB you don't have to squander resources left and right in that search. Look at the number of teams that grope for years to find that guy. And for most of BB's tenure the teams getting the top 5 picks were paying our huge sums for those guys and in many cases that was more of a handicap than a blessing.

    Having the elite guy for 15 years is a HUGE advantage in team building, period.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.



    I love this reply Babe.  Although you unintentionally described what Brady looks like when he attempts to run, LOL.   I'm ofcourse joking.  I'm aware that running is not part of his game but then again he is a football player is he not?

    Seems like the Pats need more than we thought especially after making it to the big game last year you would think they were this close.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Making the playoffs is step one--something only 6 AFC teams do each year and something the Pats have done just about every year with Brady.  All the bashers of Brady and the offensive philosophy really need to put that in their pipe and smoke it for a while.  It's quite an accomplishment in its own right. 

    Beyond that, what's required to win it all is a bit of luck, a lack of injuries, good coaching, good players, a team that's fairly complete on defense, offense, and special teams, and good execution.  I think the Pats' coaching is always good--unlike some, I'm not complaining about either offensive or defensive philosophy, schemes, game planning, or play-calling.  I think the Pats are great at all of that.  

    The real problem, I think, is we never seem to get into the playoffs with a team that's complete enough, talented enough, or free enough from injuries.  In both Super Bowls against the Giants we played a team with a great defensive line while at least two of our starting O-linemen were not 100%.  The loss of Welker in 2009, and of Gronk in 2011 and 2012, were both difficult injuries for the offense to compensate for.  We've also suffered from offenses that have been far too one-dimensional, not because of play calling, but because of one-dimensional talent: weak running backs until this year and a lack of deep receivers since Moss left.  The offense is good, but it's far too dependent on the short passing game.  We need more diversity.  We got more diverse this year with improved running backs, but by the playoffs the receiving corp had been depleted to the point of being a weakness. 

    Then there's the defense.  We simply can't rely on the defense to keep us in tight games.  The run defense has often been good, but the pass defense has been dismal for years.  We need better talent in the DBs, we need a pass rush, and we need better coverage from our LBs.  

    Great coaching and a great QB together get us to the brink of a championship every year.  (Oddly, those are the two things that certain frequent posters on here bash constantly.)  But we need a complete team--with more consistent talent across more areas than we have now. 

    Building and maintaining a great team is hard to do when you're always winning and picking late in every round, though. The draft is designed to make the good teams worse and the bad teams better.  In addition, the salary cap makes it hard to build a team through free agency--and this creates even greater challenges for teams that are disadvantaged in the draft and can't stockpile good young players coming out of college. Belichick has done a great job fighting to keep the team competitive despite these disadvantages and challenges, but he hasn't been able to completely overcome a system that is purposely designed to make teams like the Pats weaker. 

     



    Best reply so far. 

     

    FWIW, I'm not trying to start a Brady bashing thread.

    But obviously, if the greatest ever is not the problem I wanted to see what folks thought is the real problem.

    If some people want to use the moniker GOAT then you have to think he would have been able to bring them over the top just once in these past seven or eight seasons after all he would get the lion's share of credit if they win so why not some of blame when they lose.

    I guess they've been over-achieving all these years because of Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     



    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

    Regardless,  I think Brady is darn good--but like any player not perfect.  He can get you far, but he can't do it all by himself.  He's also going to have off performances sometimes.  That's when other players need to step up.  My sense is Brady has not been a problem in the playoffs.  Sure, he's made a few bad plays.  But a lot of his poor plays are in part the result of poor execution or lack of talent elsewhere. If Brady is under pressure because the line can't stop the Giants four-man rush, if receivers aren't getting open or are dropping balls, if the running game is sputtering, Brady is going to look bad.  Every once in a while, he'll do something boneheaded that's purely his fault--but a lot of the lame offensive performances of the past few years have had a lot to do with others besides Brady (or as well as him when Brady has made his own mistakes).  Brady just doesn't come out and lay eggs playoff game after playoff game as some seem to think.  Mostly, he looks bad because the guys around him aren't playing well or aren't good enough.  This isn't to say he never makes a mistake . . . but he's not making one mistake after another.  His mistakes are few and relatively far between. He's a great, great player. Greatest ever?  I don't know.  But among the top 20 at his position all time? Certainly.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.

     



    I love this reply Babe.  Although you unintentionally described what Brady looks like when he attempts to run, LOL.   I'm ofcourse joking.  I'm aware that running is not part of his game but then again he is a football player is he not?

     

    Seems like the Pats need more than we thought especially after making it to the big game last year you would think they were this close.




    Without Brady the team is pretty mediocre Dom. There are quite a few teams with better talent through the rest of the roster. IF Gronk is healthy the offense around Brady is a cut above most. The defense is not very good but did look to be presentable when Talib could get on the field.

    So really, the most recent version could be a decent supporting cast to Brady, but unfortunately perhaps the two most crucial guys on each side of the ball were MIA and that made the support mediocre and that mediocrity withered in the face of a good and motivated Ravens' team.

    The HUGE problem that has brought us to the plight we are now in is the SO MANY second round picks on defense we have simply pissed down a toilet. Playing catchup to make up for that plethora of errors is nigh on impossible to do in what will be an ever shorter window.

    It is nearly irrefutable to say Brady is not going to be getting better. So, the question is; are we screwed? The answer is; probably yes.

    (Honestly, I don't know any version of Tom Brady that could have won the Raven's game with the way the rest of the team played.)

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)



    I'm not arguing with you Babe.  I think Brady is a darn good QB and as good a candidate for GOAT as any. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     


    Thanks . . . and on Brady, I'm not willing to go so far as to call him the GOAT.  That's actually kind of silly I think because it's so hard to judge. Is he really better than Montana?  Or even Manning? I think that's very subjective.

     

     



    It is of course subjective. I'll tell you why I say he is the GOAT in a sentence.

     

    Nobody else is in the conversation in EVERY category you judge the GOAT QB on.

    (minus "running" - which is a bit of a plus factor for QBs, but not meat and potatoes.)

     

    (I will say this as well. The MEDIOCRE teams he has been progressively saddled with as the years pass is slowly undermining his status as the GOAT.)



    What are the categories? Honest question. I assume winning and Super Bowls is one. Stats and clutch factor is another.

    IMO, Montana is in those categories. 

    Toughest one to judge a Qb by is purely on stats. Rules of the game has changed so much. If the league trends the way its been going, 20 years from now, tons of QBs will be breaking statistical records, and it's not necessarily because they're better than today's QBs.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: What do the Pats need besides the Greatest QB of all Time?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Needs.

     

    A receiver that isn't a midgit with a short-pass gimmick game.

    Receivers who can get separation.

    A receiver who is a sideline/deep threat.

    Receivers who can catch.

    A HOF caliber TE who can stay on the field.

    Runners who can run when the running is tough.

    A lead back who can average more than .2 ypc over the league average.

    A major league defense.

     

    Get most of those things and even a handicap like Brady just might not be enough to stop us from winning it all.

     



    I love this reply Babe.  Although you unintentionally described what Brady looks like when he attempts to run, LOL.   I'm ofcourse joking.  I'm aware that running is not part of his game but then again he is a football player is he not?

     

    Seems like the Pats need more than we thought especially after making it to the big game last year you would think they were this close.

     




    Without Brady the team is pretty mediocre Dom. There are quite a few teams with better talent through the rest of the roster. IFGronk is healthy the offense around Brady is a cut above most. The defense is not very good but did look to be presentable when Talib could get on the field.

     

    So really, the most recent version could be a decent supporting cast to Brady, but unfortunately perhaps the two most crucial guys on each side of the ball were MIA and that made the support mediocre and that mediocrity withered in the face of a good and motivated Ravens' team.

    The HUGE problem that has brought us to the plight we are now in is the SO MANY second round picks on defense we have simply pissed down a toilet. Playing catchup to make up for that plethora of errors is nigh on impossible to do in what will be an ever shorter window.

    It is nearly irrefutable to say Brady is not going to be getting better. So, the question is; are we screwed? The answer is; probably yes.

    (Honestly, I don't know any version of Tom Brady that could have won the Raven's game with the way the rest of the team played.)



    Obviously depth is key.  Losing Talib and Gronk killed them.  Marquise Cole had no chance against Boldin. Hooman is not even close to a Gronk.  Fells must have been firmly entrenched in the dog house cuz' he's a better blocker than Hooman but we saw very little of him.

    A little luck on the injury front would help but injuries are part of the game hence the need for quality depth too.

    Very good point about the second round busts.

     
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