What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    What do you think is the primary problem with the Patriots?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from K-max. Show K-max's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching

    BB has assembled a poor team both on and off the field.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Marcus1973. Show Marcus1973's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    All of the above.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from simroy. Show simroy's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    All of the above.
    Posted by Marcus1973


    Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner!  We have met the enemy, and it is us.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from bchan89. Show bchan89's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Missed player execution
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Personally, I think the main problem is a lack of talent, most notably:
    • Lack of an acceptable third wide receiver
    • Unproductive tight ends
    • Poor offensive tackles, especially Kaczur
    • Mediocre DEs
    • Very unproductive OLBs
    • Inexperienced ILBs
    • An unreliable and undisciplined safety (Merriweather)
    • Atrocious corners (other than Bodden, who is an okay second corner)
    The offensive play calling is poor (too little commitment to the run, too many deep throws to a double-covered Moss, too little involvement of the TEs), but that may be a function of the talent. 







     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from sae123. Show sae123's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    I hear C. Weiss is available he probably still knows the play book and what he does not know he probably would not want to keep, We need to pick him up before we flush the season.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Shtarka. Show Shtarka's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Main problem is lack of talent. The coaching has actually overachieved. The Pats should have won the Colts game but failed in the fourth quarter on 3rd and 2 to get 2 yards on 2 attempts.. Same for the Miami game. In the 4th quarter the Pats were deep in Miami territory, had 3rd and 2 and couldn't get 2 yards with 2 attempts. When you see this type of  failure in 2 very similar scenarios, it shows the players simply cannot execute, not the coaches.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    It's all 3 but we need to start the fixing with the assistant coaches. Good coaches can make mediocre talent look good and that will take care of our play calling too.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Talent
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southernpat. Show southernpat's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Talent drain and not enough quality players to replace them at this point.  Every team will go through it.  Look, we've been spoiled.  It's time to rebuild the team, which the Pats are in the process of doing but it's going to take some time.  Can you stomach several mediocre seasons of barely or not at all making the playoffs?  That's what's in store for the Pats fans.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tholmes195. Show tholmes195's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    I say, play Springs...with him out the PATS lost 3 of 4 games.  He is not injured so "WHAT IS THE PROBLEM BB"!!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    Personally, I think the main problem is a lack of talent, most notably: Lack of an acceptable third wide receiver Unproductive tight ends Poor offensive tackles, especially Kaczur Mediocre DEs Very unproductive OLBs Inexperienced ILBs An unreliable and undisciplined safety (Merriweather) Atrocious corners (other than Bodden, who is an okay second corner) The offensive play calling is poor (too little commitment to the run, too many deep throws to a double-covered Moss, too little involvement of the TEs), but that may be a function of the talent. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    At least someone is trying to be reasonable and make sense of things instead of crying, "Woe is us," repeatedly.

    I think it's ridiculous.  Coaching, talent, and playcalling.  F*ck*ng duh - does anyone have anything more intelligent than that to say?  You do, and thank god.

    I like your list, except for the bit about the defensive ends.  I think Jarvis Green has been good and Ty Warren has been quietly very good (does his job, holds the line of scrimmage, and makes the occasional tackle for a loss).

    Here's what I specifically don't like about the playcalling:
    -They pass out of shotgun with the occasional draw and the rare screen
    -They run out of two-tight end sets
    -They have few formations out of which they do everything (like singleback or I-formation)

    On defense, I don't think the problem is playcalling - I think the problem is either execution or utilization of talent.  They have some guys who are big/fast/strong, but find ways to not get it done.  They need to find new ways to capitalize on the personnel they have.  They have Adalius Thomas, a rush linebacker, playing the run on the first two downs and then coming off of the field so Burgess can get his a*s*s kicked 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    It's all about managing the salary cap. 

    If you look at the salaries the best players should make the most money.  The Pats are paying star money to average or below average players.  The O line and D line make a ton of money.  The O line is below average and is burning up the Pats money.  Money needed to pay for high draft picks or big free agents.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    They pass out of shotgun with the occasional draw and the rare screen -They run out of two-tight end sets -They have few formations out of which they do everything (like singleback or I-formation)

    I agree. I wonder, though, if they use those sets so much because they lack creativity in play calling or because the play callers just don't think they have the talent to do much else? For instance, are the tight ends always in because the coaches know the O-line isn't good at pass blocking and because we don't have any better third receiving option than the TEs anyway? I've always thought BB was a creative coach, so even if his assistants aren't great, it's hard for me to believe the game planning and play calling has all of a sudden become so flat. But it's also hard for me to accept that--even if the talent isn't great--we couldn't do more with them.  I love this team--and think it's truly amazing that even in our worst years under BB we are still playoff contenders -- so I'm not whining, but I am interested in getting a better understanding of what's making this team less effective than it was even at this same time last year.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    Main problem is lack of talent. The coaching has actually overachieved. The Pats should have won the Colts game but failed in the fourth quarter on 3rd and 2 to get 2 yards on 2 attempts.. Same for the Miami game. In the 4th quarter the Pats were deep in Miami territory, had 3rd and 2 and couldn't get 2 yards with 2 attempts. When you see this type of  failure in 2 very similar scenarios, it shows the players simply cannot execute, not the coaches.
    Posted by Shtarka


    IMHO, defensive and offensive play calling sometimes gets real conservative. So, if we pretty much say to the opponent "we are going to run" or "we are passing" - it makes it harder to make the yardage.  If you look at other teams in the same situation - they will often have "misdirection" plays - which confuses the defense - and makes it harder to stop.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching? : I agree. I wonder, though, if they use those sets so much because they lack creativity in play calling or because the play callers just don't think they have the talent to do much else? For instance, are the tight ends always in because the coaches know the O-line isn't good at pass blocking and because we don't have any better third receiving option than the TEs anyway? I've always thought BB was a creative coach, so even if his assistants aren't great, it's hard for me to believe the game planning and play calling has all of a sudden become so flat. But it's also hard for me to accept that--even if the talent isn't great--we couldn't do more with them.  I love this team--and think it's truly amazing that even in our worst years under BB we are still playoff contenders -- so I'm not whining, but I am interested in getting a better understanding of what's making this team less effective than it was even at this time last year.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    The head coach has to approve of game plans and play calls, but I don't think in the larger scheme of things that Belichick would be able to micromanage the offense and still run a successful football team.  

    I blame it in part on O'Brien, whose job as play caller is to ensure that the use of formations doesn't result in predictability, and whose job it is to call plays that capitalize on the Patriots' talent.  If Watson was told just to run seams as decoy routes all day to push the linebacker and safety upfield, then maybe he was never given the opportunity to be a legit option despite the fact that the Miami defense was clearly more focused on stopping Moss and Welker.

    I also blame it on the fact that the team has no official coordinator.  Either it's too much to ask Belichick to provide overall leadership regarding the direction the team is heading AND manage the offense
    OR
    it's too much to ask O'Brien, who clearly wasn't ready enough to be given a coordinator title, to coordinate the offense on his own which means preparing the game plan, preparing the players, calling the plays, and adjusting over the course of the game, with the last part being his biggest problem right now (anticipating or reacting appropriately to changes the defense makes as the game progresses).  All it takes to confuse him is to wait until after the first drive in the second half to institute changes and he won't know how to adjust on the fly.
    --> I think they need some sort of stronger central leadership on offense.  My impression is that the chain of command is somewhat broken by the head coach and a playcalling QB coach.  Who manages personnel?  Who decides on the game plan?  If O'Brien doesn't get to make the game plan from scratch, is he having a hard time executing Belichick's vision and needs to have more freedom to do what he wants to do?  Or if he is given freedom to prove his mettle as an offensive coordinator, is he struggling?  These are questions to which only Belichick has answers.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from VMIPatsFan. Show VMIPatsFan's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    I was telling everyone about six weeks ago it is Bill O'Brien; he has no idea how to manage a game.  The offense can score points but they don't have that killer instinct when we get a lead on opponents.  Plus how many long balls can we throw, enough already.  We fail to use our tight ends when they are open because both Moss and Welker are getting double teamed.  When we were winning Moss caught some balls over the middle but it seems we have gone away from that also.  Where is Edelman?  I am still saying we need Charlie Weis so coach can stop worrying about the offense.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching? : I agree. I wonder, though, if they use those sets so much because they lack creativity in play calling or because the play callers just don't think they have the talent to do much else? For instance, are the tight ends always in because the coaches know the O-line isn't good at pass blocking and because we don't have any better third receiving option than the TEs anyway? I've always thought BB was a creative coach, so even if his assistants aren't great, it's hard for me to believe the game planning and play calling has all of a sudden become so flat. But it's also hard for me to accept that--even if the talent isn't great--we couldn't do more with them.  I love this team--and think it's truly amazing that even in our worst years under BB we are still playoff contenders -- so I'm not whining, but I am interested in getting a better understanding of what's making this team less effective than it was even at this same time last year.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid

    I think you're right, the lack of creative playcalling is the effect.  The root cause I think is innefective execution in the power game.  How many times can they run up the middle for zero yards before they abandon that option. 

    I just think if you consistently lose the battle on the O line your options are limited. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from codfishcat. Show codfishcat's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    I cannot believe the both Belichick (sp) and Brady spoke at the podium and had the audacity to make excuses for their team.  There are problems with the coaches, expecially witht he Defensive Coach, who should be fired. 

    To me the Belichick (sp) and Brady have not been truthful to we the fans in re to their problems (I say most likely the problems are personal).  I wish Belichick(sp) would wear his old gray sweat shirt and not style his hair.  The biggest problem has to be with the coaches the the whole team.  They do not put their 100 percent plut into the game.  Look how Brady has over thrown the ball; I believe he is more interested in being a model rather than playing football.  Plus I am wondering if he is getting enough nourishment or is he eating like a BIRD!

    My feeling is that they should not have shown their faces at the podium; a complete insult to their loyal patrons.  I could say more but....
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from HoleinOne402. Show HoleinOne402's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Not sure why all the negative comments regarding talent.  While not the best Pats team, with better play calling the team should be 10-2.  Offensive coordinator should be fired before season ends.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from fiveangels. Show fiveangels's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    I blame the coaches - O'Brien ____. They never run screens anymore to the HB. They run one yesterday, rip off 15 yds and then never do it again.

    The O-line stinks. Matt Light is horrible. Nick Kaczur is horrible. Neither can hold an edge. Watch the last play - both failed and Brady was going down. That's why the TE's can never run pass routes, like all the other teams do. We're either 4W and looking for the quick pass or mismatch deep or we're in max protect.

    YOu can't blame anyone but the coaching and scouting. Games are won in the trenches. Vollmer & Mankins are great. Everyone else... That's why there is no running game. These guys can't run block to save their lives becuase they can't push anyone. 

    THe D-line is shallow. None of them can penetrate except for big Vince. Now the the big sey is gone, offenses concentrate on Wilfork and Ty Warren and then there is no rush. 

    Oh, by the way, Dan Pees____too.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from btownteamsrking. Show btownteamsrking's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    Ibn Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?:
    I blame the coaches - O'Brien ____. They never run screens anymore to the HB. They run one yesterday, rip off 15 yds and then never do it again. The O-line stinks. Matt Light is horrible. Nick Kaczur is horrible. Neither can hold an edge. Watch the last play - both failed and Brady was going down. That's why the TE's can never run pass routes, like all the other teams do. We're either 4W and looking for the quick pass or mismatch deep or we're in max protect. YOu can't blame anyone but the coaching and scouting. Games are won in the trenches. Vollmer & Mankins are great. Everyone else... That's why there is no running game. These guys can't run block to save their lives becuase they can't push anyone.  THe D-line is shallow. None of them can penetrate except for big Vince. Now the the big sey is gone, offenses concentrate on Wilfork and Ty Warren and then there is no rush.  Oh, by the way, Dan Pees____too.  
    Posted by fiveangels


    Must GO: pees, obrien, special teams coach, kaczur, light, jarvis green. and i mean today, i want these ppl cut from the team.

    Must play: SHAWN SPRINGS.  he was not nearly as bad as wilhite on the outside. he actually made some nice plays early in the year.

    Maroney should get the ball 20+ times a game. he is a legit running back and he is running hard.  if we had Weis, Maroney would be looking at being a star. instead, we have moron o brien who runs the ball 7 times a game.

    Aiken is a solid #3 WR. Edelman is a good #4. no problems there.

    THROW THE DAMN BALL TO WATSON AND BAKER ONCE IN A WHILE!

    on defense: ZONE BLITZ. please.  why do we have fast guys out there if we dont let them use their reaction ability to make plays?

    this team better change a lot this week.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pangloss65. Show Pangloss65's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching?

    I don't agree that talent is the issue.  Yes, the defense is poor and the coordinator should be replaced, but the offense is good enough to cover.  To me, the fact that they play much better in the first half than the second half is the clue: Coaching

    The same players play both halves.  The opponent makes adjustments, and we don't.  Or we make the wrong ones - both on offense and defense. The difference in play between the two halves is dramatic.  In the glory years, the Pats made brilliant adjustments and played even better in the second half. 

    We could certainly use a premier DE.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching

    In Response to Re: What's the problem? Talent, play calling, or coaching:
    BB has assembled a poor team both on and off the field.
    Posted by K-max


    Off the field?  Really?  What have the Pats players done to get themselves in trouble off the field?
     
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