Who really left who?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxrockursox. Show soxrockursox's posts

    Who really left who?

    Since the Welker  signing in Denver,I keep seeing over and over agian BB walked away from Wes is this really true?Some could easy say that Wes didnt acept BB offer and walked away from BB right?

     I know ill get hell for this but it seems it needs to be disscussed since it keeps getting brought up in every thread.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from leonardo0110. Show leonardo0110's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    BB put a value on Wes, and his agent had another, is that simple.


    " Don't Judge Me Untill You've Become Perfect "

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    It's the perfect case why the Head Coach shouldn't be the G.M. too. 

     

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anybody else."  Text received by Tom Brady from Kurt Warner after Ravens loss.


    view my Patriots photoshops at patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com





     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    BB wanted to keep Wes, but wasn't going to pay through the nose for a guy who chokes. Simple as that.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from leonardo0110. Show leonardo0110's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    It's the perfect case why the Head Coach shouldn't be the G.M. too. 

     

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anybody else."  Text received by Tom Brady from Kurt Warner after Ravens loss.


    view my Patriots photoshops at patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com








    Why put the blame on BB? Wes agent clearly mis-read the market, he tought Wes was worth a least 8ml per year. What did Victor Cruz get from the giant? 46ml for 6 years  15.6 guarantee and you wanted BB to give how much to Wes?

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxrockursox. Show soxrockursox's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    BB wanted to keep Wes, but wasn't going to pay through the nose for a guy who chokes. Simple as that.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     



    Right,its a bussiness and has nothing to do with BB wanting to take Wes away from Brady.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to soxrockursox's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    BB wanted to keep Wes, but wasn't going to pay through the nose for a guy who chokes. Simple as that.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     

     



    Right,its a bussiness and has nothing to do with BB wanting to take Wes away from Brady.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    No, it has nothing to do with the crazy Rusty conspiracy theories at all.

    The facts are that Wes was getting older and dropped some huge passes in the postseason. Beyond facts, any one of us could make up anything we like, as Rusty does.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to leonardo0110's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    It's the perfect case why the Head Coach shouldn't be the G.M. too. 

     

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anybody else."  Text received by Tom Brady from Kurt Warner after Ravens loss.


    view my Patriots photoshops at patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com





     




    Why put the blame on BB? Wes agent clearly mis-read the market, he tought Wes was worth a least 8ml per year. What did Victor Cruz get from the giant? 46ml for 6 years  15.6 guarantee and you wanted BB to give how much to Wes?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxrockursox. Show soxrockursox's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to soxrockursox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    BB wanted to keep Wes, but wasn't going to pay through the nose for a guy who chokes. Simple as that.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     

     

     



    Right,its a bussiness and has nothing to do with BB wanting to take Wes away from Brady.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    No, it has nothing to do with the crazy Rusty conspiracy theories at all.

     

    The facts are that Wes was getting older and dropped some huge passes in the postseason. Beyond facts, any one of us could make up anything we like, as Rusty does.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The best one is were he says denard is innocent of assault on a cop,but then agian hes on probation for it lol .

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to soxrockursox's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to soxrockursox's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    BB wanted to keep Wes, but wasn't going to pay through the nose for a guy who chokes. Simple as that.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     

     

     

     



    Right,its a bussiness and has nothing to do with BB wanting to take Wes away from Brady.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    No, it has nothing to do with the crazy Rusty conspiracy theories at all.

     

     

    The facts are that Wes was getting older and dropped some huge passes in the postseason. Beyond facts, any one of us could make up anything we like, as Rusty does.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The best one is were he says denard is innocent of assault on a cop,but then agian hes on probation for it lol .

     

    [/QUOTE]


    It must be the vast right wing conspiracy against BB that got an innocent man convicted. LMAO

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to APpats21's comment:

    If anyone should be blamed it's Welker's agent



    Funny you should say that. Jonathan Kraft was on 98.5 last week and essentially said the same thing. go to around the 21 minute mark of the interview and he talks about Welker and what went down. 

    Jonathan Kraft On Felger & Mazz: ‘Let’s Not Go Crazy’ Over Brady Injury
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to soxrockursox's comment:

    Since the Welker  signing in Denver,I keep seeing over and over agian BB walked away from Wes is this really true?Some could easy say that Wes didnt acept BB offer and walked away from BB right?

     I know ill get hell for this but it seems it needs to be disscussed since it keeps getting brought up in every thread.



    Why does this matter? He's no longer on the Pats, he's a Bronco now end of story.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

     

    Basically, the Pats and Welker couldn't agree on a figure (last year or in the previous year).  Who "walked" first is almost irrelevant, since a deal just couldn't be worked out that both parties liked.

     

    In addition to the money thing, I don't think Welker was 100% happy with Belichick, and that probably made him less likely to sign an agreement with the Pats for less money than he wanted.  Maybe Welker thought a change of scenery might do him good and was ready to move on if the Pats weren't going to pay him significantly more than a team like the Broncos?

     

    Welker was in a tough negotiating position because of his age, the position he plays (slot receivers come relatively cheap), his size and rather one-dimensional skill, and the perception that he'd only produce results with a special QB (like Brady or Manning) who could utilize his peculiar skill.  Welker and his agent pushed hard to get a deal that was close to what other receivers with similar stats were getting, but in the end too much was against them and they had to settle for what teams would pay for an aging, small slot receiver.  Welker ended up with about what the Pats were offering so he and his agent didn't really lose much (if anything), and Welker had a chance to try a different team, get away from Belichick, and test the market again in two years.  

     

    I think the Pats would have gladly kept him for what they offered, but Belichick clearly felt he was replaceable and not worth more than they offered. Welker may have resented knowing that that's how the Pats felt about him after his exceptional production over the past several years. There clearly are some hard feelings on Welker's side. In the end, the result was probably good for Welker--a change of scenery and pretty much equal money. 

     

     

     

     

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to ZeeOff-'s comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to leonardo0110's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    It's the perfect case why the Head Coach shouldn't be the G.M. too. 

     

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anybody else."  Text received by Tom Brady from Kurt Warner after Ravens loss.


    view my Patriots photoshops at patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com





     

     

     




    Why put the blame on BB? Wes agent clearly mis-read the market, he tought Wes was worth a least 8ml per year. What did Victor Cruz get from the giant? 46ml for 6 years  15.6 guarantee and you wanted BB to give how much to Wes?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Conflict of interest? Yeah, because you wouldn't want the GM getting the players the coach wants. And why do you think it made a difference that Welker rejected the deal last year? Mankins stayed home for a half season and he ended up getting a deal. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I heard a very good argument about why being a coach and a GM is a conflict of interest.  Think about it... The GM can be hard nosed about the financial matters and it does not put the coach and player in a position to be at odds with each other.  The Coach can always tell the player.. yeah I know you are worth more then that blah, blah, blah and it never hurts the player/coach relationship.  The GM is seen as the bad guy. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    The Pats had a figure. Wes didn't like it. 

    Sometimes players leave purely for the fact that they feel insulted. This could likely be that kind of case. 

    Whatever. They went out and replaced him with someone else who can do the job. 

    I agree with NE's treatment of it. A slot shouldn't get outside WR money. It's a less difficult position, and a player like Wes wasn't a kind of guy who makes the other defense have to adjust their entire approach.

    He was a dominant possession slot, for sure. But he wasn't worth the kind of money you would pay for a guy that can take over games from the outside, and score any time he has the ball. 

     
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to TFB12's comment:


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.



    You should probably take another look at the timeline of events.  Welker had a deal on the table from the Pats that was roughly equivalent to the one he eventually got from Denver, but he didn't accept it before FA opened.  Once FA opened, the Pats needed to act quickly to lock up their Plan B since they were at risk of getting nothing.  They agreed to terms with Amendola BEFORE Welker signed with Denver, because they HAD to, to protect themselves.  Once they did, the deal for Welker was off the table.

    The Pats read the market for Welker correctly, he did not, and that is why he is no longer here.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to MattC05's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.

     



    You should probably take another look at the timeline of events.  Welker had a deal on the table from the Pats that was roughly equivalent to the one he eventually got from Denver, but he didn't accept it before FA opened.  Once FA opened, the Pats needed to act quickly to lock up their Plan B since they were at risk of getting nothing.  They agreed to terms with Amendola BEFORE Welker signed with Denver, because they HAD to, to protect themselves.  Once they did, the deal for Welker was off the table.

     

    The Pats read the market for Welker correctly, he did not, and that is why he is no longer here.

    [/QUOTE]


    How do you know?  Heck, it was even reported that Amendola was signed before Welker got an offer.  Fact is we don't know exactly how it went down, not sure if we will ever know.  Belichick was mad about Welker not accepting the deal last season.  The pats put a figure down, added ridiculous bonus requirements and Welker chose to sign with the Broncos for a little more.  

    You knew the relationship was over when Edelman received playing time ahead of Welker at the start of last season.  The only offer by the Pats cemented the fact that the relationship was over.  At that point it was best for both parties to move on which is what happened.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to MattC05's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.

     



    You should probably take another look at the timeline of events.  Welker had a deal on the table from the Pats that was roughly equivalent to the one he eventually got from Denver, but he didn't accept it before FA opened.  Once FA opened, the Pats needed to act quickly to lock up their Plan B since they were at risk of getting nothing.  They agreed to terms with Amendola BEFORE Welker signed with Denver, because they HAD to, to protect themselves.  Once they did, the deal for Welker was off the table.

     

    The Pats read the market for Welker correctly, he did not, and that is why he is no longer here.



    This!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    In response to MattC05's comment:

     

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

     


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.

     

     



    You should probably take another look at the timeline of events.  Welker had a deal on the table from the Pats that was roughly equivalent to the one he eventually got from Denver, but he didn't accept it before FA opened.  Once FA opened, the Pats needed to act quickly to lock up their Plan B since they were at risk of getting nothing.  They agreed to terms with Amendola BEFORE Welker signed with Denver, because they HAD to, to protect themselves.  Once they did, the deal for Welker was off the table.

     

     

    The Pats read the market for Welker correctly, he did not, and that is why he is no longer here.




    How do you know?  Heck, it was even reported that Amendola was signed before Welker got an offer.  Fact is we don't know exactly how it went down, not sure if we will ever know.  Belichick was mad about Welker not accepting the deal last season.  The pats put a figure down, added ridiculous bonus requirements and Welker chose to sign with the Broncos for a little more.  

     

    You knew the relationship was over when Edelman received playing time ahead of Welker at the start of last season.  The only offer by the Pats cemented the fact that the relationship was over.  At that point it was best for both parties to move on which is what happened.




    According to Jonathan Kraft (take it for what it is worth) the pat's twice made Welker offers better than what he signed for in Denver. He didn't mention the time frame but if you piece it together it was most likely the offer of 2 years 16 mil at the time he got franchised and most likely another offer right before the FA period began.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

     

     In retrospect, I think BB  may have been more upset about Welker's infamous "foot" press conference than I believed.  BB has a lot of respect for his fellow coaches and may not have liked Welker so publically making fun of another coach, particularly about a personal matter that involved the coach's wife.  I personally thought it was just a funny gag, but in retrospect I can see Belichick thinking it was way out of line to make comments about another coach and the sexual prooclivities of that coah's wife.  There is a bit of a fraternity among coaches and Welker may have treaded disrespectfully onto sacred ground in BB's opinion.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattC05's comment:

     

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

     


    The Pats could have matched the Broncos offer but they chose not to.  BB was mad at Welker for not accepting the offer the previous year.   The head coach should never be the GM, conflict of interest.

     

     



    You should probably take another look at the timeline of events.  Welker had a deal on the table from the Pats that was roughly equivalent to the one he eventually got from Denver, but he didn't accept it before FA opened.  Once FA opened, the Pats needed to act quickly to lock up their Plan B since they were at risk of getting nothing.  They agreed to terms with Amendola BEFORE Welker signed with Denver, because they HAD to, to protect themselves.  Once they did, the deal for Welker was off the table.

     

     

    The Pats read the market for Welker correctly, he did not, and that is why he is no longer here.




    How do you know?  Heck, it was even reported that Amendola was signed before Welker got an offer.  Fact is we don't know exactly how it went down, not sure if we will ever know.  Belichick was mad about Welker not accepting the deal last season.  The pats put a figure down, added ridiculous bonus requirements and Welker chose to sign with the Broncos for a little more.  

     

    You knew the relationship was over when Edelman received playing time ahead of Welker at the start of last season.  The only offer by the Pats cemented the fact that the relationship was over.  At that point it was best for both parties to move on which is what happened.

     




     

    According to Jonathan Kraft (take it for what it is worth) the pat's twice made Welker offers better than what he signed for in Denver. He didn't mention the time frame but if you piece it together it was most likely the offer of 2 years 16 mil at the time he got franchised and most likely another offer right before the FA period began.

    [/QUOTE]

    A lot depends, though, on how you view incentives and other nonguaranteed parts of the offer.  Welker and the Pats could have had an honest disagreement over how good an offer was.  Also, the Pats seem to have reduced their offer at some point, and what matters is what the Pats had on the table when Denver presented their offer. 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    There is a bit of a fraternity among coaches and Welker may have treaded disrespectfully onto sacred ground in BB's opinion.



    There is?  Someone forgot to tell Mangini that.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    NE did, in fact, sign Amendola before they signed Welker. Then they offered Welker a contract. It's something many people forget, and it colors the negotiation very differently. Obivously NE was willing to take on both contracts.

    While there is obvious skill-set overlap, I think BB was rather candid that he viewed them as slightly different, saying he thought Amendola could play "inside and outside," I think the case could be made that they had a price for both and would have been fine carrying both at those prices. 

    The contract negotiations were only tied together by the fact that reports indicate NE started courting Amendola when they decided to let Welker test free agency.

    At the end of the day, on Wes' front (without speculation about hurt feelings etal) there were the guarantees. Wes' contract is downright vested in Denver. At 32, possibly looking at his last chance to make some money, that is the story. 

    If Welker misses any time or declines from age in this short span ... he will have done something smart for himself by making sure he is going to be paid either way.

     
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Who really left who?

    In response to TFB12's comment:


    How do you know?  Heck, it was even reported that Amendola was signed before Welker got an offer. 



    That's pretty much exactly what I said.  Welker had offers from the Pats before FA opened, and they were pulled off the table when Amendola was signed in the first few days of FA.  Welker didn't accept those offers because he thought he could get more on the open market.  He couldn't.

    The Pats weren't mad at Welker; they just weren't going to overpay for him.  If they were mad at him or didn't want him, they wouldn't have made him any offers (fair market ones at that, not low-balling him) prior to the start of FA.

    Welker wasn't mad at the Pats, he just misread his market.

    This is pretty much the epitome of "It's not personal, it's just businesss."  People like to think one side or the other had dramatic issues with the other, but it's just not true.

     

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