why kick out of the endzone???

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from norichcrybabies. Show norichcrybabies's posts

    why kick out of the endzone???

    you'd think there'd be an advantage to kicking it high to the front of the endzone since we have another 5 yd head start, wouldn't it?  Granted, there's always the potential for a big return, but that was always there before.  The returns I DID see so far only got out to the 10 or 15. 

    Thoughts?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tartarus12. Show tartarus12's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    Starting at the 20 is pretty poor field position. Why risk injury or a long return for 5 yards? I say kick it as far as you can.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    What you aren't seeing, for the most part, is teams using their "first team" kickoff return/coverage teams. Maybe it woudl't change a whole lot, but many of the guys on ST now are fighting for roster spots, and maybe more likely, practice squad spots. That benefits the coverage team.

    The first month of the season is going to be sloppy all over. By week 6, or so, this kickoff "issue", like many others, will be forgotten because it won't be very different from years past. Like I said on another thread, football was just fine in the 80s and 90s, when they predominantly kicked off from the 35...or maybe even the 40 off of a higher tee. I think they've given it enough time to look at scoring/injuries/field position/and overall excitement, and have decided the 35 is just fine.

    The Bears overreacted, and so are many fans.

    As far as the high, short kick, I expect you will see some of that during the season, but it's harder to get good placement doing that that it is to just kick the c r a p out of it. The high, short kick will be a new talent all kickers will have to work on, something they've NEVER had to do at any level before.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from norichcrybabies. Show norichcrybabies's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    plus, and I'm just going from memory here, but I seem to recall quite a bit of congestion on the part of the recieving teams because of the condenced field.  I just see opportunities for the ball to hit the ground is all. 

    I guess it's going to give rise to new "formations" on retuns.  Even if it's just putting middle 2nd line blockers back a bit further and pinching others in a bit???  I think it's going to actually open up special teams a little bit as teams act and react to the evolution of the kicking game.

    I don't think it's going to be as simple as moving the ball up and kicking it out of the endzone.  I think it's going to give special teams coaches an opportunity to be a little more creative on both sides of the ball and possibly establish special teams as an even bigger component of the game. 

    Can we expect to see kicking "plays" in the future?  hmmm  wait and see, I guess...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone???:
    Starting at the 20 is pretty poor field position. Why risk injury or a long return for 5 yards? I say kick it as far as you can.
    Posted by tartarus12


    Without question. The new rule is lame. Touchbacks have doubled already.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from lippa. Show lippa's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    I think if this continues like this ,at one point in the season the return team will catch the kickoff team sleeping when they think its just going to be a touchback,result  in a TD.
       Reference fins agianst the jets,Jets thought marino was going to spike the ball so defense was standing around and bang td for marino.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    I'm not a proponent of the new rules as a fan it takes away the KR as a means of getting back into the game or just adding an element of excitement to an otherwise boring field goal fest! The NFL will rescind this rule after one season.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    Now that Goodell has made kicking off completely irrelevant, I see no reason to make the Offense, starting on their own 20 each and EVERY single time...nearly without exception.  So I propose this:  1 cheerleader from the NFL team which has just scored (kicking team), MAY choose, to challenge any 1 single cheerleader of the receiving team- to a 1-1 very simple American Gladiator event...the same simple one where 1 gladiator has to make it by another gladiator & into the endzone, in a mini-version of a football field <something like 10 yards wide, 10 yards long...person with football gets a 5 yard start to speed>  

    The end result being, rather than ANY kick-off at all (seems to be what Goodell wants regardless), the kicking team cheerleader will defend against a mini-mock TD run, by this receiving team cheerleader.  Girl in bikini gets IN=The Offense now gets the ball starting on the 25 yard line, and THIS bikini-clad cheerleader gets to now spank 5 extra slaps on the rear (in front of audience obviously)...for these 5 extra yards.  Same sit. IF bikini clad girl STOPS bikini clad cheerleader trying to get by her=Ball's now on the 15 yard line...5 fanny slaps.     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to why kick out of the endzone???:
    you'd think there'd be an advantage to kicking it high to the front of the endzone since we have another 5 yd head start, wouldn't it?  Granted, there's always the potential for a big return, but that was always there before.  The returns I DID see so far only got out to the 10 or 15.  Thoughts?
    Posted by norichcrybabies



    I think tartarus's answer is pretty good -- the risk of a long return probably outweighs the potential field position advantages in most cases.  The exception, though, would be if kicking teams got very good at pinning the receiving team within the 10 yard line.  It's very hard for an offense to operate well that close to its own goal line, so if kicking teams could get really good at consistently hanging the ball high and dropping it at the 3 or 4 yard line, then you might see more attempts to kick short rather than just driving every kickoff through the endzone to force a touchback.  I'm not sure, however, how feasible that is for most kickers.  

    As it is, I really hate the new rule since it not only makes it easier for the kicker to put the ball in the endzone, it pretty much creates every incentive in the world for receiving team to settle for a touchback rather than attempt a return. With the coverage team starting five yards closer to the endzone (and not particularly slowed by the new requirement to line up no more than five yards behind the kicker) and with kicks landing deeper in the endzone, it's a lot harder harder for the receiving team to get the ball out to the 20 yard line on a return.  The sensible strategic move for the receivers seems to be to just take the knee and start at the 20.  

    I almost think that the NFL would have been better to have given up on the kick off altogether and instead adopted something like the current safety kick (but kicked from mid field maybe) to start the game.  This would be more like a punt than a kick off, but at least it would create more potential for returns and would be a lot more exciting than touchback after touchback, which is what I'm afraid we have now. 


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from expertmike. Show expertmike's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    Bad rule because we get less football.  Are NFL teams going to reduce prices to account for the consumer getting less product?  These "repackaging tricks" have been happening with consumer goods for years.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from norichcrybabies. Show norichcrybabies's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone???:
    In Response to why kick out of the endzone??? : I think tartarus's answer is pretty good -- the risk of a long return probably outweighs the potential field position advantages in most cases.  The exception, though, would be if kicking teams got very good at pinning the receiving team within the 10 yard line.  It's very hard for an offense to operate well that close to its own goal line, so if kicking teams could get really good at consistently hanging the ball high and dropping it at the 3 or 4 yard line, then you might see more attempts to kick short rather than just driving every kickoff through the endzone to force a touchback.  I'm not sure, however, how feasible that is for most kickers.   As it is, I really hate the new rule since it not only makes it easier for the kicker to put the ball in the endzone, it pretty much creates every incentive in the world for receiving team to settle for a touchback rather than attempt a return. With the coverage team starting five yards closer to the endzone (and not particularly slowed by the new requirement to line up no more than five yards behind the kicker) and with kicks landing deeper in the endzone, it's a lot harder harder for the receiving team to get the ball out to the 20 yard line on a return.  The sensible strategic move for the receivers seems to be to just take the knee and start at the 20.   I almost think that the NFL would have been better to have given up on the kick off altogether and instead adopted something like the current safety kick (but kicked from mid field maybe) to start the game.  This would be more like a punt than a kick off, but at least it would create more potential for returns and would be a lot more exciting than touchback after touchback, which is what I'm afraid we have now. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid



    This is basically what I'm talking about.  A negative play from the 8-15 yard line is very bad and puts the offence in a precarious position against an aggressive, blitzing defence.  Moreso than from the 20.  I think you may see a rise in safety's this year for the teams that change it up a bit.  Maybe even TD's off blocked punts... 

    If I'm special teams coach, I'm working on this.  Hell, you're there kicking all day anyways, what differance does it make?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone???:
    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone??? : This is basically what I'm talking about.  A negative play from the 8-15 yard line is very bad and puts the offence in a precarious position against an aggressive, blitzing defence.  Moreso than from the 20.  I think you may see a rise in safety's this year for the teams that change it up a bit.  Maybe even TD's off blocked punts...  If I'm special teams coach, I'm working on this.  Hell, you're there kicking all day anyways, what differance does it make?
    Posted by norichcrybabies


    I think they are probably working on this . . . I know a few coaches have mentioned it as a possibility.  I don't think it's been tried in a preseason game yet, though (at least I haven't seen or heard of it yet). If this became commonplace it could make the new rule a whole lot more interesting than it seems now and might salvage what otherwise looks like a rule change that makes the game a lot duller than it was. 


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    If the ball lands in the endzone and it gets downed by the receiving team, the ball comes out to the 20.  If the ball is kicked out of the endzone it comes out to the 20.  Difference is, landing the ball in the endzone gives the receiving team the opportunity to look upfield and see if the receiving team is blocking well, in which case they might try for a big runback.  So, always aim to put the ball out of the endzone.

    With kickers like Gostkowski, this rule creates a really stupid situation every single time.  Tee the ball up, kick it way long, nothing happens.  Tee the ball up, kick it way long, nothing happens.  Worse, the new bozo play is combined with the nearly automatic extra point and three beer ads.  Pretty soon everyone is taking a bathroom break or a long refrigerator break and TV ad revenues are plummeting.  Maybe the networks will figure this out soon enough.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    I actually think there is a reason Gost isn't kicking off right now. My guess is BB is working with him to kick the ball a mile high and on the 5. Starting 5 yards closer if Gost can kick it 10 yards higher the gunners might reach the returner before he even catches the ball. Why show case that in pre-season if you don't need to? I have a strange feeling BB is going to try to pin teams into the 10 yrd line by using Gost's big leg
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    What would others think if the NFL added a modified version of the CFL's single rule--where a team that downs a "returnable" kick in the endzone has to give up a point to get the touchback?  It puts pressure on the receiving team to take the ball out, even from deep in the endzone, since taking a touchback actually scores one point for the kicking team.  (The receiving team still keeps the ball and starts at the touchback line--which is the 25 yard line in the CFL with its longer field, but would probably remain the 20 yard line in the NFL.)

    * In the CFL no single point is scored when a kick goes through the endzone . . . the single is scored only when the kick is caught or lands and stays in the endzone and the receiving team doesn't take it out.  (The CFL also awards singles for unreturned punts and field goals--even if they go through or past the endzone). I'd modify the CFL's rule to allow the single only in the case that the ball on a kickoff was either caught or hit the ground in front of the end line and was then downed in the endzone.  I think I'd avoid the single on punts and field goals, though it might be interesting on punts as well as on kick offs.)
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from kebbe. Show kebbe's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    The kickoff return is,arguably,the most exciting play in football.However,it is also,arguably,the most dangerous play in the game.Whether you prefer the excitement or the safety factor will settle which side of this issue you adopt.As for kicking the ball through the endzone,I believe you'd be hard pressed to find a coach who wouldn't want the opposition to have to drive 80 yards to score after every kickoff.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimmytantric. Show jimmytantric's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    Pretty hard to get hang time kicking from a tee-silly post! Kick to the front of end zone would be a  disadvantage to the kicking team since most likely it would be low trajectory giving the kickoff team little time to get down field-please go back to the Jets board Leon!!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from norichcrybabies. Show norichcrybabies's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone???:
    Pretty hard to get hang time kicking from a tee-silly post! Kick to the front of end zone would be a  disadvantage to the kicking team since most likely it would be low trajectory giving the kickoff team little time to get down field-please go back to the Jets board Leon!!!
    Posted by jimmytantric


    These are professional kickers.  silly post.
    ...masse shot's (pool) aren't hard if you know how to shoot them.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    Pro kickers do adjust the way they kick to get more drive or more height.  (This is especially important when adjusting to the wind conditions.)  I'm not an expert on kicking by any means, but I certainly wouldn't rule out kickers and their coaches working to kick shorter and higher in the hopes of dropping the ball just in front of the goal line with good hang time.  Remember, the coverage team is five yards closer at the kick, so they have a shorter distance to run.  Getting the coverage team to the five yard line as the kick comes down may not be quite as hard now.  

    Still, I think most kicking teams will just settle for touchbacks under this new rule.  It's a lot easier, with no risk of allowing a big return.  Receiving teams will also prefer touchbacks, since getting out to the 20 is going to be a lot harder this year. With both kicking and receiving teams prefering touchbacks, that's what we'll get. Lots of them. 





     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from norichcrybabies. Show norichcrybabies's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone???:
    What would others think if the NFL added a modified version of the CFL's single rule--where a team that downs a "returnable" kick in the endzone has to give up a point to get the touchback?  It puts pressure on the receiving team to take the ball out, even from deep in the endzone, since taking a touchback actually scores one point for the kicking team.  (The receiving team still keeps the ball and starts at the touchback line--which is the 25 yard line in the CFL with its longer field, but would probably remain the 20 yard line in the NFL.) * In the CFL no single point is scored when a kick goes through the endzone . . . the single is scored only when the kick is caught or lands and stays in the endzone and the receiving team doesn't take it out.  (The CFL also awards singles for unreturned punts and field goals--even if they go through or past the endzone). I'd modify the CFL's rule to allow the single only in the case that the ball on a kickoff was either caught or hit the ground in front of the end line and was then downed in the endzone.  I think I'd avoid the single on punts and field goals, though it might be interesting on punts as well as on kick offs.)
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    yeah, but the rule was changed to deter returns...  injuries and all that.  This would encourage, actually almost FORCE the teams to return kickoffs after making the defence line up 5 yards closer. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: why kick out of the endzone???

    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone???:
    In Response to Re: why kick out of the endzone??? : yeah, but the rule was changed to deter returns...  injuries and all that.  This would encourage, actually almost FORCE the teams to return kickoffs after making the defence line up 5 yards closer. 
    Posted by norichcrybabies

    [Note: After I wrote the answer below, I realized I was explaining something I wrote in a different thread--about possibly adopting the rules for a safety kick to the kick off.  You're right that adding the CFL's single rule would simply force more returns.  Still I think one of the goals of the change in kick off rule was to shorten the length of the sprint that coverage teams make downfield when covering kick offs to reduce the number of high-speed collisions.  I think the competition committee did want to increase the number of touchbacks, but I don't think it wanted to completely eliminate the kick off return. I think it just wanted to make the returns that did take place a bit safer by shortening up the downfield sprint. In actuality, though, they made touchbacks so much more desirable that they may indeed end up pretty much eliminating returns.  Adding the single rule might help restore the balance by giving receiving teams a bit more incentive to take kicks out rather than settle for touchbacks. Now on to my explanation of the possible advantages of replacing the kick off with something more like the safety kick, but kicked from midfield rather than from the 20 yard line.  This would shorten the kick off and make it more like a (presumably safer) punt . . . but would still allow for some kind of return, even if the return was more like a punt return than the current kick off return . . .]

    Yeah, but the difference is that the kick would be much shorter and therefore you wouldn't have the long 60 to 70 yard full-speed sprints that you have on current kick offs. I'm assuming the NFL thinks 40-yard punts are less dangerous than 70-yard kick offs. My suggestion is to provide an approach with a shorter (presumably less dangerous kick) while still allowing (and even encouraging) returns rather than touchbacks on most plays.  

    Ideally, we'd just go back to the old, 30-yard-line kick off.  But if we're going to have to change things for safety reasons, I'm looking for ways that still allow for the excitment of a return, but maybe aren't quite as wild as the current 70-yard kick off play.  Essentially I'm turning the kick off into a punt, much like the current safety kick is a punt. 

    Again, I'd rather keep the old kick off . . . but not if it just becomes one touchback after another.  At that point, you may as well just put the ball on the 20 and start the game.  
     
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