Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    Dowling wasn't that surprising. Butler and Wilhite look like marginal players. I like Arrington and Dowling as subs (nickle and dime players). And like most I am pretty happy about the tandem of Bodden and McCourty.

    As previously stated Morris and Taylor look like they're done. Law Firm has one 1000 yrd season under his belt and is a RFA. I hate saying this but Faulk is coming off an injury, and my limited knowledge tells that injuries don't heal as quickly when you are older. We got great production from Woodhead. For me, we have to wait and see what type of production we get from Vereen and Ridley. It seems that if both Ridley and Vereen make the team and Law Firm is resigned than we have one of the youngest stable of RBs in the league.

    Solder and Cannon could be part of the Pats O Line for years. Neal is gone. I don't no what's up with Kazcur. Light is UFA and getting old. These were flat out solid picks with Cannon being a potential steal in 5th.

    I see Mallett like  A J Burnett (if forgive me for saying) he's got a million dollar arm and a 20 cent brain. Enter Tom Brady the most intelligent QB in the game  and a leader on and off the field. Ask yourself this question: Who had a better college career Matt Cassel or Ryan Mallet ? All that's missing are some (not all) intangibles and he gets to learn from the best.

    This was a decent follow up to the 2010 draft and Belichick set us up with two picks in the 1st and two in the 2nd (eg: the ablity to move up or down ) in the 2012 draft. It's pretty clear that Belichick is aligning things for the future of the franchise extremely well.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    i hope we resign mankins because that could potentially mean that 4 of the spots on our O line could be set for years with solder, vollmer, cannon, mankins.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]i hope we resign mankins because that could potentially mean that 4 of the spots on our O line could be set for years with solder, vollmer, cannon, mankins.
    Posted by natesubs[/QUOTE]

         My guess is that the pats will finally sign Mankins. He'll be the veteran leader of the Pats young, revamped, OL. 
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    I've finally gotten through the posts and have a couple arguments on both sides.

    1st - The Jets game: I agree the O lost the game but on the flip side I don't think that the D was good enough to win the game either. They were good enough not to lose the game but not win it. What's the difference you ask? The 01, 03, 04 D's were good enough to win games. Even if the O had an off day they could crank it down and win the game. The 02', 06' D was good enough not to lose games but if the O had a off day then they weren't going to win either. That's how I saw the D in the Jets lose. Now mind you in the first half they were great but in the second there were a couple of occasions where the D could have stopped the Jets dead and failed to do so. So, as I said the D played well enough not to lose but it's an area that clearly needed help

    2nd - The draft: as Texas has said I really liked the Solder pick. I was disappointed they didn't get one of the premier rushers in this years draft or didn't move up to get one (for all I know they tried) but to get a LT his size to play across from Vollmer and bookend a solid OL is worth a high pick

    The traded 28th pick is a wait and see for me. I still wanted a pass rusher there and ended up with Vereen and a 1st next next year. I'll hold out judgement on whether it was the right move until I see what the 1st next year becomes and if Vereen becomes more then he's projected (a receiving back to replace Faulk)

    Ras was a head scratcher. Yet again I wanted a pass rusher and they go after another CB. He's got the size and talent but only if he can stay on the field. More on top of that but drafting Ras means they have no faith in Butler developing or they don't trust Bodden to stay healthy. Either way it's a pick that they felt needed to be made because of a bad decision in the past.

    Vereen I thought was taken way to soon. From all reports he has the chance to become a good rotational back that has great hands out of the backfield but might not have the ability to carry the load long term. Since the Pats system is based around versatility and a rotational back system he fits perfectly but usually RB's drafted in the 1st and 2nd round are expected to take a very larger percentage of the carries. I question if we could have gotten him later

    Ridley I understand the pick but not sure if I like the pick. Last year short yards killed us, so there was an obvious need for a power back to pick up those short yards. Ridley fits that mold perfectly and will most likely fill more of a FB type of role then a RB role. But, as with Vereen did you need to spend such a high pick on someone who might essentially turn out to be a FB?

    Mallett is a gamble worth taking. At worst he continues his current ways and gets kicked off the team at minimal cost. At best he replaces Brady long term and the Pats continue with only a minor stumble. The final result might be somewhere in between where after maturing a little Mallett is flipped to a QB hungry team for a big profit (ala Kolb when he gets traded)

    Cannon absolutely great pick. Would have been a early to mid 2nd pick if not for the cancer. He will come back strong and prove he should have been taken earlier.

    Smith is another great pick. He'll have a year to learn under Crumpler and then he'll be a 3rd T on the field that can peel off and catch a critical pass. Hernandez is our WR/TE hybrid, Gronk is a pure all around TE, and now Smith is our T/TE hybrid talk about versatility on short yard and goal line situations in 3 TE sets

    The others I don't really care either way.

    What it basically boils down to though is in 08 we all saw the LB core was basically bone dry and there were no bodies to fill the retiring gaps. So they went out and drafted Mayo but the pass rusher started to fall apart. In the 09' draft fans wanted to fix the pass rush with some OLB help instead they traded Seymour. In 10' after 2 years without a solid pass rush they went after Spikes and Cunningham which put more youth into the LB core but again in 10' the pass rush was still heading in the downward direction. Now in the 11' draft I think most realized that with Spikes and Cunningham having a year under their belt and Warren back that the pass rush will improve, however, there is still a huge hole where Seymour use to be and also right behind him. Warren and Cunningham might be fine on their side but like T's you need to bookend them with other players and many can see TBC, Nin, G Warren, Brace are good players but not the solution to the pass rush. Now Wright might step up his game which would improve his OLB counterpart but then again Wright might not. As a pure pass rusher Wright has been great but what happens when he's not on the field or rushing? I think most people were disappointed they didn't get a 3 down DE or that pass rushing specialist in the OLB to get 7+ sacks a year (TBC doesn't count since more then half in his big season came against the Bills). Of course if they go into the season with this current crew and the pass rush still stinks you'll hear people complain about it but if they sign a FA or it drastically improves then you'll hear what a genius BB is. The truth is somewhere in between. BB might have waited to long to fix the pass rush and to stubborn to draft early enough for replacements but he also didn't over react and reach for a draft pick (ala Jets) or give a huge contract to a player that didn't deserve it (he learned after Ad)
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]I've finally gotten through the posts and have a couple arguments on both sides. 1st - The Jets game: I agree the O lost the game but on the flip side I don't think that the D was good enough to win the game either. They were good enough not to lose the game but not win it.
     
    RESPONSE: No, the Pats "D" wasn't great. But, as you know, football is a team game. The failure of the offense and special teams to execute cost the Patriots 17 points, and momentum. The offense allowed a Jets' team. that the Pats had recently crushed 45-3, to believe. If you let good teams "hang around', bad things happen.

    The 01, 03, 04 D's were good enough to win games. Even if the O had an off day they could crank it down and win the game.
     
    RESPONSE: The 2010 Pats obviously weren't as balanced, and lacked the veteran leaderships of those squads.  

    The 02', 06' D was good enough not to lose games but if the O had a off day then they weren't going to win either. That's how I saw the D in the Jets lose.

    RESPONSE: The "D" in 2002was awful. The 2006 Pats had a ton on injuries on "D", when they played the Colts in the AFC title game. Nonetheless, but for the intervention of the referees, the Pats would have beaten Indy, and gone on to win the SB over a very mediocre Bears team.  
        

    Now mind you in the first half they were great but in the second there were a couple of occasions where the D could have stopped the Jets dead and failed to do so. So, as I said the D played well enough not to lose but it's an area that clearly needed help
     
    RESPONSE: Every team has it's strengths and weaknesses. No team is super on both sides of the ball. What team can survive giving away 17 points to a good team? 

    2nd - The draft: as Texas has said I really liked the Solder pick. I was disappointed they didn't get one of the premier rushers in this years draft or didn't move up to get one (for all I know they tried) but to get a LT his size to play across from Vollmer and bookend a solid OL is worth a high pick
     
    RESPONSE: With LT Light an UFA, and the status of LG Mankins in question, the Pats had to address OT. What pass-rusher would you have liked to have seen the Patriots get instead? 

    The traded 28th pick is a wait and see for me. I still wanted a pass rusher there and ended up with Vereen and a 1st next next year. I'll hold out judgement on whether it was the right move until I see what the 1st next year becomes and if Vereen becomes more then he's projected (a receiving back to replace Faulk) Ras was a head scratcher. Yet again I wanted a pass rusher and they go after another CB. He's got the size and talent but only if he can stay on the field. More on top of that but drafting Ras means they have no faith in Butler developing or they don't trust Bodden to stay healthy. Either way it's a pick that they felt needed to be made because of a bad decision in the past.
     
    RESPONSE: Agreed. Don't forget that BB is friends with Virginia coach Al Groh, who surely recommended Dowling.

    Vereen I thought was taken way to soon. From all reports he has the chance to become a good rotational back that has great hands out of the backfield but might not have the ability to carry the load long term. Since the Pats system is based around versatility and a rotational back system he fits perfectly but usually RB's drafted in the 1st and 2nd round are expected to take a very larger percentage of the carries. I question if we could have gotten him later Ridley I understand the pick but not sure if I like the pick. Last year short yards killed us, so there was an obvious need for a power back to pick up those short yards. Ridley fits that mold perfectly and will most likely fill more of a FB type of role then a RB role. But, as with Vereen did you need to spend such a high pick on someone who might essentially turn out to be a FB?
     
    RESPONSE: That was my main criticism with the draft, too. But, what pass-rushers were available by the time Vereen was selected? The strength at that point in the draft was at the WR position. Is it possible that BB views Vereen in the same way as he viewed Percy Harvin, who was converted to WR by the Vikings?

    Mallett is a gamble worth taking. At worst he continues his current ways and gets kicked off the team at minimal cost. At best he replaces Brady long term and the Pats continue with only a minor stumble. The final result might be somewhere in between where after maturing a little Mallett is flipped to a QB hungry team for a big profit (ala Kolb when he gets traded)
     
    RESPONSE: Amen. Mallett has the talent to develop into a great player. Time will tell.

    Cannon absolutely great pick. Would have been a early to mid 2nd pick if not for the cancer. He will come back strong and prove he should have been taken earlier. Smith is another great pick. He'll have a year to learn under Crumpler and then he'll be a 3rd T on the field that can peel off and catch a critical pass. Hernandez is our WR/TE hybrid, Gronk is a pure all around TE, and now Smith is our T/TE hybrid talk about versatility on short yard and goal line situations in 3 TE sets The others I don't really care either way.

    RESPONSE: Agreed. I liked these picks, too. There's a possiblity that Smith could eventually be converted to an OT. 

    What it basically boils down to though is in 08 we all saw the LB core was basically bone dry and there were no bodies to fill the retiring gaps. So they went out and drafted Mayo but the pass rusher started to fall apart. In the 09' draft fans wanted to fix the pass rush with some OLB help instead they traded Seymour.
     
    RESPONSE: BB hoped to nab his pass-rusher with the pick aquired for Seymour. Unfortunately, the Raiders became respectable last year...dropping the Pats out of the running for a top 10 pick. Still, I really like Solder...who should have gone higher than 17th overall.   

    2 years without a solid pass rush they went after Spikes and Cunningham which put more youth into the LB core but again in 10' the pass rush was still heading in the downward direction. Now in the 11' draft I think most realized that with Spikes and Cunningham having a year under their belt and Warren back that the pass rush will improve, however, there is still a huge hole where Seymour use to be and also right behind him. Warren and Cunningham might be fine on their side but like T's you need to bookend them with other players and many can see TBC, Nin, G Warren, Brace are good players but not the solution to the pass rush.

    RESPONSE: True...but don't you feel better about the state of the Pats going into 2011, than you did when they were going into 2010? The team is rebuilding on the fly, yet still remains a top 5 team in the league. They aren't that far away from going to another SB. 

    Now Wright might step up his game which would improve his OLB counterpart but then again Wright might not. As a pure pass rusher Wright has been great but what happens when he's not on the field or rushing? I think most people were disappointed they didn't get a 3 down DE or that pass rushing specialist in the OLB to get 7+ sacks a year (TBC doesn't count since more then half in his big season came against the Bills). Of course if they go into the season with this current crew and the pass rush still stinks you'll hear people complain about it but if they sign a FA or it drastically improves then you'll hear what a genius BB is. The truth is somewhere in between. BB might have waited to long to fix the pass rush and to stubborn to draft early enough for replacements but he also didn't over react and reach for a draft pick (ala Jets) or give a huge contract to a player that didn't deserve it (he learned after Ad)

    RESPONSE: Clay Matthews aside, pass rushers are hard to find. Remember, Willie McGinest and Richard Seymour were top 10 overall draft choices. Mike Vrabel and Rosevelt Colvin were signed as free agents. I have confidence in BB to find a way. He nearly did last year.  
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    TP, your last point is a key one.

    BB has drafted Seymour and Mayo--both Front 7 guys--when he's had a pick in the Top 10 since he's run the Patriots' organization. The other two times he went with a Front 7 guy in the first round were Warren in 2003, who was a Top 15 pick, and Wilfork in 2004, who for reasons still completely inexplicable fell all the way to #21 overall, when he should have been plucked long, long before that (a ludicrous run on WRs in that first round, starting with the 9th overall pick, caused the D-line guys to slide).

    In other words, unless it's a case where a highly-rated player like Wilfork is inexplicably slipping down the draft board, BB prefers to draft "can't miss" types of guys at the Front 7 positions if he's going to take one in the first round. Those "can't miss" guys are usually among the top 10 or 15 prospects in the entire draft class, and not just at their position(s).

    In the 2011 draft, had things worked out the way BB planned in 2009 when he traded Seymour, he would have had a Top 10 pick from Oakland and would have grabbed his Front 7/pass rush help. Alas, the Raiders got decent last season, and the pick slid all the way to #17. BB didn't think it was worth it to trade up and grab a DE/OLB there, so he went with another "need" pick and a very, very good value in Solder. We'll see if BB was right about not trading up to grab a DE/OLB.

    Ultimately, it's clear that the Pats need a better pass rush. It's probably unlikely that the answers to the problem reside on the current roster, too, so that leaves free agency after the lockout. We'll see how that goes.

    That said, BB has 4 more picks in the first two rounds next year, and who knows...maybe the new CBA changes the rules enough to the point where trades for players become more common? If that's the case, BB could capitalize on the situation and acquire his pass rusher(s) that way.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    No, the Pats "D" wasn't great. But, as you know, football is a team game. The failure of the offense and special teams to execute cost the Patriots 17 points, and momentum. The offense allowed a Jets' team. that the Pats had recently crushed 45-3, to believe. If you let good teams "hang around', bad things happen.

    TP - To answer your points lets start with the D. Yes the O failed but to my point the D didn't win it either. Yes 17 points is hard to turn around but if the D made the same stops in the second half as they did in the 1st they still would have won. In the end I would put 20% of the blame on the D 30% on ST and 50% on the O.

    With LT Light an UFA, and the status of LG Mankins in question, the Pats had to address OT. What pass-rusher would you have liked to have seen the Patriots get instead?

    With the 17th pick the rushers I would have liked to get or trade up for were Watt, Quinn, Kerrigan, Jordan. However, as I said I'm perfectly happy with Solder I just wish we could have grab a pass rush earlier then the 6th round. Though I don't agree they had to get one with the 17th pick, I think they could have traded up #28 to grab one in the mid 20's at minimal cost. But Solder might be the best of the bunch so again I liked the pick

    That was my main criticism with the draft, too. But, what pass-rushers were available by the time Vereen was selected? The strength at that point in the draft was at the WR position. Is it possible that BB views Vereen in the same way as he viewed Percy Harvin, who was converted to WR by the Vikings?

    With the Vereen pick, I agree the value was in the WR spot but also Wilson, Moch, and Houston were available as pure pass rusher. In the end if Vereen turns into a Harvin type of back I'll be more then happy with the pick but that would also mean that BB doesn't trust the WR's currently on the team enough that he decided he needs not only a hybrid TE/WR but also a RB/WR. Both of which don't address the problem of S's stacking the box.

    BB hoped to nab his pass-rusher with the pick aquired for Seymour. Unfortunately, the Raiders became respectable last year...dropping the Pats out of the running for a top 10 pick. Still, I really like Solder...who should have gone higher than 17th overall

    Who knows what BB's plan was with the Seymour pick. As far as we knew it was for a top flight DE or for a top WR or for the top QB. Who knows what the man was thinking honestly.

    True...but don't you feel better about the state of the Pats going into 2011, than you did when they were going into 2010? The team is rebuilding on the fly, yet still remains a top 5 team in the league. They aren't that far away from going to another SB.

    I always feel better about the Pats every year so not sure how to think about it. However, I'd feel much better if they go out and get Roth and Floyd/Sims-Walker. If, and that's a big if, they hit FA hard and address their OLB problem and WR issue with a couple top end FA's (which imo Roth has to be a target given his familiarity with BB type systems and similarities to Vrable when he came here) then it would fix all the issues I expressed. But, until that happens the thread is why we were upset

    Clay Matthews aside, pass rushers are hard to find. Remember, Willie McGinest and Richard Seymour were top 10 overall draft choices. Mike Vrabel and Rosevelt Colvin were signed as free agents. I have confidence in BB to find a way. He nearly did last year.

    I still have faith BB will find that guy but you have to admit he hasn't found a good pass rusher since Vrable really (Colvin was injured before a real judgement could be made). I have faith Cunningham will click this year but there have been some good rushers (not pro-bowl caliber) that he has passed on in the last 3 drafts. Namely Misi's name was bantered about in 10', Dunlap, Matthews, Laurinaitis is improving each year but I cherry picked names that I remember people mentioning. And, to be fair I'd rather have Gronk and McCourty over Misi and it's still to soon to tell if Dunlap will be better then Cunningham but Butler over Matthews or Laurinaitis still stings. Also, there were more misses then hits but one thing that has been proven time and time again once you get out of the 2nd elite pass rushers are rare at best. Over the last 4-5 years the best rushers were found in the mid 1st to mid 2nd area (the area BB likes the best). Of course in the end I would give almost anything for them to sign Roth and Cunningham make the big leap then see guys like Wright, Moore, and Nin step up and fix the problem almost exclusively internally.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    I love this draft...and so will pats fans....excited to see Solder, Dowling, and Cannon
    http://60maxpowero.com/draftermath1.html
    http://60maxpowero.com/draftermath2.html
    http://60maxpowero.com/draftermath3.html
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]No, the Pats "D" wasn't great. But, as you know, football is a team game. The failure of the offense and special teams to execute cost the Patriots 17 points, and momentum. The offense allowed a Jets' team. that the Pats had recently crushed 45-3, to believe. If you let good teams "hang around', bad things happen. TP - To answer your points lets start with the D. Yes the O failed but to my point the D didn't win it either. Yes 17 points is hard to turn around but if the D made the same stops in the second half as they did in the 1st they still would have won. In the end I would put 20% of the blame on the D 30% on ST and 50% on the O.
     
    RESPONSE: Don't you think that 30% of the blame going to special teams is high? After all, they messed one play, and that was due to one player, Patrick Chung, failing to catch a direct snap. It seems to me that the  coaching staff deserves some blame for taking that gamble, and for failing to get their players ready to perform at a high level. 

    With LT Light an UFA, and the status of LG Mankins in question, the Pats had to address OT. What pass-rusher would you have liked to have seen the Patriots get instead? With the 17th pick the rushers I would have liked to get or trade up for were Watt, Quinn, Kerrigan, Jordan. However, as I said I'm perfectly happy with Solder I just wish we could have grab a pass rush earlier then the 6th round.
     
    RESPONSE: Okay...I'll give my take on each of these players, as follows:

         1.) J.J. Watt: The minute Watt hired Tom Condon, his chances of becoming a Patriot were over. BB hates Condon...something that still lingers from the Ben Watson selection in the 2004 draft:  
    Mar 6, 7:17 PM

         "The Boston Herald's Ian Rapoport believes Wisconsin DE J.J. Watt is an unlikely draft pick for the Patriots because his agent is Tom Condon.
    The Pats haven't selected a Condon client since a falling out over Ben Watson's contract negotiations (seven) years ago. It may not be a deal-breaker if the Pats fall in love with Watt, but it certainly seems like Bill Belichick has been steering clear. Also represented by Condon: Mizzou DE Aldon Smith, Boston College LB Mark Herzlich, and Texas CB Aaron Williams."
     
         The fact that the Patriots did not take a flyer on Boston College LB Mark Herzlich late in the draft likely has to do with Herzlich hiring Condon. 

         The Condon thing aside...Watt was the best 3-4 DE available in the draft. He was selected by the Houston Texans, with the 11th overall pick. To get him, the Pats would have had to trade at least their 17th overall pick, plus their 56th overall pick (see draft value chart:

    http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php).

         Assuming that the Texans were willing to trade, the Pats would have lost OT Nate Solder and RB Shane Vereen to get Watt. With the Texans' problems on the defensive side of the ball, and their switch to a 3-4 "D" under their new defensive coordinator, Wade Phillips, it's doubtful that they would have traded their pick.

         2.) Robert Quinn: Selected 14th overall by the Rams. Many felt that Quinn was the best pass-rusher available. But, if that was the case, why did he drop to 14th overall? Quinn is just 20 years old, who missed the entire 2010 season at North Carolina due to an NCAA suspension for accepting illegal benefits. Though the guy is a great athlete, a tumor was discovered on the top of his spinal cavity during his senior year in high school. Though it was benign, it had caused a fluid build-up that had to be drained. Ever since, this area of his anatomy has been checked twice a year by doctors. 

         3.) Ryan Kerrigan: Selected by the Redkins with the 16th overall pick after a trade downwith Jacksonville, who surprising parted with their 16th and 49th overall picks to move up six slots, to select QB Blaine Gabbert. Though the 'Skins were desperate for a QB, they passed on the opportunity to land arguable the best QB in the draft, and targeted a pass-rusher instead. But, it appeared to many that Kerrigan was not a good fit as a 3-4 OLB, and is better suited as a 4-3 DE: http://www.patspulpit.com/2011/4/19/2119605/patriots-nfl-draft-prospect-olb-ryan-kerrigan-purdue;

         4.) Cameron Jordan: This is the guy that most...myself included, thought that the Patriots would select. He seemed like a great fit for their system. Yet, BB passed on him, and took OT Nate Solder at #17.  Jordan was subsequently selected 25th overall, by the Saints. As I've said many times, protecting Tom Brady is job one on this team. With Matt Light an UFA, and 33 years old, Solder appears to have been the right choice. Could the Pats have traded up from #28 to land Jordan? Perhaps. But, had they done so, it would have cost them their 28th and 60th picks (Solder and Vereen), and would have prevented them from trading for the Saints' top pick in 2012, and possibly QB Ryan Mallett. Ouch!!
     
    Though I don't agree they had to get one with the 17th pick, I think they could have traded up #28 to grab one in the mid 20's at minimal cost.

    RESPONSE: Completely disagree about the "minimal cost". See above. 

    With the Vereen pick, I agree the value was in the WR spot but also Wilson, Moch, and Houston were available as pure pass rusher.
     
    RESPONSE: Again...I'll take these guys one at a time:

         1.) Martez Wilson: Has the size and speed that the Pats look for. But, is projected as an ILB, where the Pats are pretty solid, with Mayo, Spikes, and Guyton. Was selected 72nd overall by the Saints;

         2.) Dontay Moch: 6'1", 248lb. OLB, with blazing 4.44 speed. Lacks the size that the Pats look for in a 3-4 OLB. Is the type of guy who who fit like a glove in Indy. Played DE in college. Selected 66th overall by Cincinnati.

          3.) Justin Houston: 6'3", 270lb. monster whom I projected would be the Patriots 33rd overall selection...as did others: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2011/04/scouting_the_dr_8.html But, But, the guy is reportedly a head case. His effort has been questioned. Plus, he tested positive for marijuana at the Combine (like Brandon Tate did), where the players know that they're going to be drug tested. These things caused him to fall to 70th overall, where he was taken by Scott Pioli. Likely would have been taken at #73 or #74, if he hadn't been swooped up by the Chiefs.       


    In the end if Vereen turns into a Harvin type of back I'll be more then happy with the pick but that would also mean that BB doesn't trust the WR's currently on the team enough that he decided he needs not only a hybrid TE/WR but also a RB/WR. Both of which don't address the problem of S's stacking the box. 

    Who knows what BB's plan was with the Seymour pick. As far as we knew it was for a top flight DE or for a top WR or for the top QB. Who knows what the man was thinking honestly.
     
    RESPONSE: No way that the Pats would have used a top 10 pick on a WR or a QB. If the Pats had a top 10 overall pick, and failed to select a top defensive player with it, there would have been much greater reason to criticize BB. 

    I always feel better about the Pats every year so not sure how to think about it. However, I'd feel much better if they go out and get Roth and Floyd/Sims-Walker. If, and that's a big if, they hit FA hard and address their OLB problem and WR issue with a couple top end FA's (which imo Roth has to be a target given his familiarity with BB type systems and similarities to Vrable when he came here) then it would fix all the issues I expressed. But, until that happens the thread is why we were upset

    RESPONSE: Understood. We're all frustrated watching QBs like Mark Sanchez and Matt Flynn getting all day to throw, and methodically pick the Patriots' "D" apart. Roth has the size and, seemingly, the athleticism that the Pats look for. But, don't expect the Pats to throw tons of dollars his way. Job one is to sign Logan Mankins to a long term deal. I doubt that the Pats will spend big money on a WR. But, don't be surprised if Chad Ochocinco becomes a Patriot, on an incentive based contract.

    I still have faith BB will find that guy but you have to admit he hasn't found a good pass rusher since Vrable really (Colvin was injured before a real judgement could be made). I have faith Cunningham will click this year but there have been some good rushers (not pro-bowl caliber) that he has passed on in the last 3 drafts. Namely Misi's name was bantered about in 10', Dunlap, Matthews, Laurinaitis is improving each year but I cherry picked names that I remember people mentioning. And, to be fair I'd rather have Gronk and McCourty over Misi and it's still to soon to tell if Dunlap will be better then Cunningham but Butler over Matthews or Laurinaitis still stings. 

    RESPONSE: Not fair to imply that the Pats could have had Matthews or Laurinaitis over Butler. Butler was selected 41st overall, while Matthews and Laurinaitis went 26th and 33th overall, respectively. The Pats would not have been able to nab Gronk, and Tate, without the trade-down that cost them Matthews.

    Also, there were more misses then hits but one thing that has been proven time and time again once you get out of the 2nd elite pass rushers are rare at best. Over the last 4-5 years the best rushers were found in the mid 1st to mid 2nd area (the area BB likes the best). Of course in the end I would give almost anything for them to sign Roth and Cunningham make the big leap then see guys like Wright, Moore, and Nin step up and fix the problem almost exclusively internally.

    RESPONSE: Pats could have nabbed OLB Lamarr Woodley or ILB David Harris in 2007, over Brandon Meriweather. Everybody missed on OLB James Harrison, who was an undrafted free agent.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]No, the Pats "D" wasn't great. But, as you know, football is a team game. The failure of the offense and special teams to execute cost the Patriots 17 points, and momentum. The offense allowed a Jets' team. that the Pats had recently crushed 45-3, to believe. If you let good teams "hang around', bad things happen. [/QUOTE]



    The D "wasn't great"?

    When you allow a 70 passer to throw a 127 at you, "wasn't great" just seems to be a bit of an understatement. Most fans would call their D allowing a 70 passer to put up a 127, "really really sucking".

    And a D allowing 14 points in the 4th quarter of a dogfight playoff game most fans would call "really really sucking" too.

    I think your "wasn't great" applies much more to the offense.


    I do understand how hard it is for the average Pat's fan to admit despite the bunches of high draft picks the genius GM Hoodie has put into this D that it kinda sucks, but it does.

    But blaming Brady for only putting up an 89 rating with 2 TD and 1 INT plus 299 yards, which is better than his career playoff average, so we can deny Hoodie just hasn't got the job done choosing players for the defense is really pointless other than to reinforce our delusions. It doesn't get to the heart of the matter of why we are not successful enough the last 6 years.



     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : The D "wasn't great"? When you allow a 70 passer to throw a 127 at you, "wasn't great" just seems to be a bit of an understatement. Most fans would call their D allowing a 70 passer to put up a 127, "really really sucking".
     
    RESPONSE: True...LOL!!

    And a D allowing 14 points in the 4th quarter of a dogfight playoff game most fans would call "really really sucking" too. I think your "wasn't great" applies much more to the offense. I do understand how hard it is for the average Pat's fan to admit despite the bunches of high draft picks the genius GM Hoodie has put into this D that it kinda sucks, but it does.

    RESPONSE: The failure of the offense to execute early, and that stupid fake punt cost the Pats 17 points, and gave the Jets the belief that they could win. The Jets were a team that the Pats had spanked, 45-3, just four weeks earlier. Had the Pats rank up TDs on their first two drives, as they should have, it would have been a completely different game.   

    But blaming Brady for only putting up an 89 rating with 2 TD and 1 INT plus 299 yards, which is better than his career playoff average, so we can deny Hoodie just hasn't got the job done choosing players for the defense is really pointless other than to reinforce our delusions. It doesn't get to the heart of the matter of why we are not successful enough the last 6 years.

    RESPONSE: I strongly disagree when you lay the entire blame for this loss on poor drafts. I don't care what Tom Brady's numbers were. He had an off game. That interception he threw was inexcusable. He wasn't playing with confidence, and the Pats OL was getting pushed around. Saying that the Pats have not been successful over the last six years is laughable. True...they haven't won a championship. But, they've gotten to the tournament every year, save 2008. The Patriots' goal under BB isn't to win a title, and then suk for 5 years, rebuilding. It's been to be like the old Dallas Cowboys of the 70s and 80s...to be a good team every season, with a chance of winning a title, every season. That's exactly what BB has done. Had Brady and the offense executed in the first quarter, the Jets would have panicked, and the Pats would have won the game easily.   
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    I'm not sure who stunk more in that last loss, offense defense or ST but they didn't play as well as they could.  But all is not lost, that defense was so young I'm surprised they got as many wins as they did.  In the playoffs you can expect things to be tougher,.  I think this is a team on the rise.  You could just feel in 05 and 06 that this was a team getting older and that the gas was going to run out of the tank soon enough.  That's now what I see now, very young team, getting beter not just older.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    Correct me if I'm wrong.  I thought Chung did an audible it. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]I am just curious, did you see Ridley at LSU?  I am just wondering if you are going by what you saw with him or going by his scouting report, etc.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I watched two LSU games, Auburn and Alabama.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    You are absolutely terrible (or should I say great) at distorting statistics. Do you work for a political party or something?

    Passer rating needs to be taken in context. Sanchez made some key plays, but the jets weren't passing the ball all over the pats that game. On the other hand, Brady's rating doesn't matter. A lot of the yardage was in garbage time as was a TD. In the middle of the game his rating was incredibly low, and that first drive INT was hideous. 

    How many D players have them missed on Babe? Matthews? A guy that doesn't fit their system who had many questions swirling around him? Yeah, BB sure has missed with guys like Mayo, McC, Spikes, Chung, Cunningham. One of his mistakes makes probowls at safety in Meriweather.

    YOU ARE DELUSIONAL BABE. 


    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : The D "wasn't great"? When you allow a 70 passer to throw a 127 at you, "wasn't great" just seems to be a bit of an understatement. Most fans would call their D allowing a 70 passer to put up a 127, "really really sucking". And a D allowing 14 points in the 4th quarter of a dogfight playoff game most fans would call "really really sucking" too. I think your "wasn't great" applies much more to the offense. I do understand how hard it is for the average Pat's fan to admit despite the bunches of high draft picks the genius GM Hoodie has put into this D that it kinda sucks, but it does. But blaming Brady for only putting up an 89 rating with 2 TD and 1 INT plus 299 yards, which is better than his career playoff average, so we can deny Hoodie just hasn't got the job done choosing players for the defense is really pointless other than to reinforce our delusions. It doesn't get to the heart of the matter of why we are not successful enough the last 6 years.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    We do know that last year was a "rebuilding" year right?  Obviously they weren't talking about the Patriot offense when they coined that phrase.  Defensive backs can rush the passer, not every sack comes via outside linebacker. Cunningham is solid and with Wilfork, Warren, Warren, Stroud, Brace, Wright and Deadrick we have some beef upfront...  A young defense led the league in INT's, if they learn bend don't break and can hold on 3rd downs we have a great young defense.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]You are absolutely terrible (or should I say great) at distorting statistics. Do you work for a political party or something? Passer rating needs to be taken in context. Sanchez made some key plays, but the jets weren't passing the ball all over the pats that game. On the other hand, Brady's rating doesn't matter. A lot of the yardage was in garbage time as was a TD. In the middle of the game his rating was incredibly low, and that first drive INT was hideous.  How many D players have them missed on Babe? Matthews? A guy that doesn't fit their system who had many questions swirling around him? Yeah, BB sure has missed with guys like Mayo, McC, Spikes, Chung, Cunningham. One of his mistakes makes probowls at safety in Meriweather. YOU ARE DELUSIONAL BABE.  In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections :
    Posted by Rockdog1293000[/QUOTE]

    What a load of baloni. Sorry the facts don't mesh with your delusions.

    Brady's INT was "hideous"? How much worse is a "hideous" interception than say a perfect pass tipped by the receiver for an INT? Spin much?

    Sanchez had 3 TDs and no INTs. Wow, awesome D. A guy who averaged just over 1 TD a game gets 3 in the playoffs on our turf, and you want to blame Brady who got sacked 5 f'n times.

    And the dink and dunk the D turned into a 58 yard backbreaker was swell D too, right.


    It was 14-11 late in the 3rd. The O got it within a TD with 2 minutes left but the Jets scored again. Here's a clue for you. Any D that gives up 14 points in the 4th quarter when the O has been coming back, SUCKS.


    Lay off the kool-aide and start pointing the fingers where they belong.
    You strongly exhibit the symptoms of mindless BB worship claiming Spikes, Chung and Cunningham are some kind of fabulous draft picks. They are marginal starters and nothing more at this point because there's just nothing else worth a damn to put out there.

    And Meriweather? Your going to hang your hat on Meriweather to prove BB is a genius GM? Even most delusional Pat's fans know that guy is a stiff. Pro-bowls my a**.




     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrogLegs. Show FrogLegs's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    During the regular season, the offense scored 32.4 Pts/Game while the defense was allowing 19.6 Pts/Game.
    So, in that playoff game (lost 28 to 21), one can say that both the offense and the defense didn't play on par with their regular season average. Still the offense has the worst differential: -11.4 vs -8.4.
    In conclusion, the offense is more to blame for that defeat... Tongue out
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from natesubs. Show natesubs's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    who cares who is to blame, we lost get over it. stop pointing fingers. they win/lose as a team. it is a team sport, you have to win in defense/offense/special teams to win the game.  all 3 facets of the game we played poorly so we lost now lets get over it and start thinking about next season.
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    I threw in the BM example to prove even BB's worst 1st round draft pick makes the pro bowl. You or I may not love him, but the guy makes pro bowls. That's better than Vernon Gholston for example.

    You are a tool. The offense set the tone the entire season, and the offense crapped the bed in the playoffs. the D didn't play well enough to win, but they weren't designed to win games last year with so many rookies. How is this hard to understand?!? They were a front-running D designed to work in combo with the offense. The offense dropped the ball so the pats didn't perform as well on D as typical, but not so far from average as another poster noted.

    What is your point anyway?!? That BB is awful? That Brady is perfect and therefore no fault should be put at his feet? Most absurdly, you comparing Brady's first drive, momentum killing INT to a tipped ball is incredibly ludicrous. HE THREW IT RIGHT AT A MIDDLE LINEBACKER! It was an awful play. 

    Also, is BB to blame for the stubborn play-calling that game of Bill O'Brien? I don't see what your point is. That BB drafts bad and therefore the D isn't good enough? We must need every OLB prospect out there I guess. If 1 in 20 or them work out (which is pretty much the hit % on those guys) then they should just draft 20 of them. You should be GM since Bill is so incompetent. Lord knows you must run a huge company because you're so smart and have all the answers. 

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : What a load of baloni. Sorry the facts don't mesh with your delusions. Brady's INT was "hideous"? How much worse is a "hideous" interception than say a perfect pass tipped by the receiver for an INT? Spin much? Sanchez had 3 TDs and no INTs. Wow, awesome D. A guy who averaged just over 1 TD a game gets 3 in the playoffs on our turf, and you want to blame Brady who got sacked 5 f'n times. And the dink and dunk the D turned into a 58 yard backbreaker was swell D too, right. It was 14-11 late in the 3rd. The O got it within a TD with 2 minutes left but the Jets scored again. Here's a clue for you. Any D that gives up 14 points in the 4th quarter when the O has been coming back, SUCKS. Lay off the kool-aide and start pointing the fingers where they belong. You strongly exhibit the symptoms of mindless BB worship claiming Spikes, Chung and Cunningham are some kind of fabulous draft picks. They are marginal starters and nothing more at this point because there's just nothing else worth a damn to put out there. And Meriweather? Your going to hang your hat on Meriweather to prove BB is a genius GM? Even most delusional Pat's fans know that guy is a stiff. Pro-bowls my a**.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    Maroney was BB's worst first round draft pick.. IMHO ofcourse.
     

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