Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    When you consider that the PAtriots brass had to replace Bruschi, Ty Law, Harrison and Willie Mac. They have done very well. Mayo, it could easily be argued, is as good or better than Bruschi (it hurt to say that, but nonetheless true), if McCourty continues to improve he has a shot to be as good or better than Ty Law (Asante) (already had a better rookie campaign). Chung is still learning and I expect him to be a very good starter (maybe not at Rodney's level....yet). Cunningham will improve if Warren and the D Line can stay healthy; he might not reach Willie's level, but even Willie (early on) had his share of struggles. The point is the Patriots did a good job rebuilding on the fly. It is extremely difficult to contend after significant parts of your dynastic team are no longer with you.

    On offense we see Vollmer emerging as one of the better RTs in the game. We see Mankins as one of the best LGs in the game. We got Welker (one of the best slot receivers in the game) for a song and drafted to very good TEs (Hernandez and Gronkowski) and had an undrafted free agent as our leading rusher (Law Firm). 

    Simply put this is just not easy to do. To remain in contention for a Super Bowl while winning you division with the amount of personel turnover the PAtriots have had the last five years is astonishing. Most teams would experience a 3 or 4 year decline whilst rebuilding. Not the Pats, they still win 10-14 games, however, since the expectation is to win a Super Bowl every year (unrealistic in the cap era) you have naysayers and people that want draft do-overs so the Patriots are stacked at every position. Newsflash, the NFL doesn't work that way; that's why Suh gets drafted by a team that has s--ked for ten (more) years and the Patriots have no shot at getting him. The NFL is structured to attain and maintain competitive balance (cap, draft, schedule) and yet the Patriots still manage to contend every year.

    For those of you scoring at home. Polian (rule changes etc) must be considered a below average GM if Belichick and his accomplishments are considered average.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : You're drafting standards are absurdly high.  I'd like to see your take on any other teams drafting history, I doubt anyone has ever gotten better than a C by your standards.  2001, just a multi probowler an a HOF'er.  How many of those guys to make an A.  Here's the Saints drafting history for example, I don't see any HOF'ers.  And they have had a bunch of top 10 picks and drafted relatively well compared to the rest fo the NFL, but still more failures than successes.  That's just the draft. New Orleans Saints Draft History   2010 Rnd Name College Note 1 Patrick Robinson Florida State   2 Charles Brown USC   3 Jimmy Graham Miami (FL)   4 Al Woods LSU   5 Matt Tennant Boston College   7 Sean Canfield Oregon State     2009 Rnd Name College Note 1 Malcolm Jenkins Ohio State   4 Chip Vaughn Wake Forest   4 Stanley Arnoux Wake Forest   5 Thomas Morstead Southern Methodist     2008 Rnd Name College Note 1 Sedrick Ellis USC   2 Tracy Porter Indiana   5 DeMario Pressley North Carolina State   5 Carl Nicks Nebraska   6 Taylor Mehlhaff Wisconsin   7 Adrian Arrington Michigan     2007 Rnd Name College Note 1 Robert Meachem Tennessee   3 Usama Young Kent State   3 Andy Alleman Akron   4 Antonio Pittman Ohio State   4 Jermon Bushrod Towson   5 David Jones Wingate   7 Marvin Mitchell Tennessee     2006 Rnd Name College Note 1 Reggie Bush USC   2 Roman Harper Alabama   4 Jahri Evans Bloomsburg (PA)   5 Rob Ninkovich Purdue   6 Mike Hass Oregon State   6 Josh (Bernard) Lay Pittsburgh   7 Zach Strief Northwestern   7 Marques Colston Hofstra     2005 Rnd Name College Note 1 Jammal Brown Oklahoma   2 Josh Bullocks Nebraska   3 Alfred Fincher Connecticut   4 Chase Lyman California   5 Adrian McPherson Florida State   6 Jason Jefferson Wisconsin   7 Jimmy Verdon Arizona State     2004 Rnd Name College Note 1 Will Smith Ohio State   2 Devery Henderson Louisiana State   2 Courtney Watson Notre Dame   5 Rodney Leisle UCLA   5 Mike Karney Arizona State   7 Colby Bockwoldt Brigham Young     2003 Rnd Name College Note 1 Johnathan Sullivan Georgia   2 Jonathan Stinchcomb Georgia   3 Willie Grant (Cie) Ohio State   4 Montrae Holland Florida State   5 Melvin Williams Kansas State   6 Kareem Kelly USC   7 Talman Gardner Florida State     2002 Rnd Name College Note 1 Donte Stallworth Tennessee   1 Charles Grant Georgia   2 LeCharles Bentley Ohio State   3 James Allen Oregon State   4 Keyuo Craver Nebraska   5 Mel Mitchell Western Kentucky   6 J.T. O'Sullivan California-Davis   6 John Gilmore Penn State   7 Derrius Monroe Virginia Tech     2001 Rnd Name College Note 1 Deuce McAllister Mississippi   3 Sedrick Hodge North Carolina   3 Kenny Smith Alabama   4 Moran Norris Kansas   5 Onomoe Ojo California-Davis   6 Mitch White Oregon State   7 Ennis Davis USC     2000 Rnd Name College Note 2 Darren Howard Kansas State   4 Terrelle Smith Arizona State   5 Tutan Reyes Mississippi   5 Austin Wheatley Iowa   5 Chad Morton USC   6 Marc Bulger West Virginia   6 Michael Hawthorne Purdue   6 Sherrod Gideon Southern Mississippi   7 Kevin Houser Ohio State
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]

    Absurdly high? No, I just see the draft as a bell curve.

    Let's face it, BB hasn't done much as a GM to set himself above the rest. He just got lucky in the 6th round one year.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]When you consider that the PAtriots brass had to replace Bruschi, Ty Law, Harrison and Willie Mac. They have done very well. Mayo, it could easily be argued, is as good or better than Bruschi (it hurt to say that, but nonetheless true), if McCourty continues to improve he has a shot to be as good or better than Ty Law (Asante) (already had a better rookie campaign). Chung is still learning and I expect him to be a very good starter (maybe not at Rodney's level....yet). Cunningham will improve if Warren and the D Line can stay healthy; he might not reach Willie's level, but even Willie (early on) had his share of struggles. The point is the Patriots did a good job rebuilding on the fly. It is extremely difficult to contend after significant parts of your dynastic team are no longer with you. On offense we see Vollmer emerging as one of the better RTs in the game. We see Mankins as one of the best LGs in the game. We got Welker (one of the best slot receivers in the game) for a song and drafted to very good TEs (Hernandez and Gronkowski) and had an undrafted free agent as our leading rusher (Law Firm).  Simply put this is just not easy to do. To remain in contention for a Super Bowl while winning you division with the amount of personel turnover the PAtriots have had the last five years is astonishing. Most teams would experience a 3 or 4 year decline whilst rebuilding. Not the Pats, they still win 10-14 games, however, since the expectation is to win a Super Bowl every year (unrealistic in the cap era) you have naysayers and people that want draft do-overs so the Patriots are stacked at every position. Newsflash, the NFL doesn't work that way; that's why Suh gets drafted by a team that has s--ked for ten (more) years and the Patriots have no shot at getting him. The NFL is structured to attain and maintain competitive balance (cap, draft, schedule) and yet the Patriots still manage to contend every year. For those of you scoring at home. Polian (rule changes etc) must be considered a below average GM if Belichick and his accomplishments are considered average.
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz[/QUOTE]

    I would think a genius could manage to do better than 0 for the last 6 with a no show and two one and outs in the last 3 while having the best QB in the game.

    The reason one must rebuild is because of poor choices in the draft and free agency prior to the old age setting in.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : See my post above. Do you really mean this or are you just trying to be an agent provocateur? If you really mean it, you're an awfully tough guy to please, I must say.
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

    Plenty of things please me.

    The way Brady plays QB, Wilfork plays NT, McCourty plays CB and BB coaches, all please me.

    The Pat's GM does not please me.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Absurdly high? No, I just see the draft as a bell curve. Let's face it, BB hasn't done much as a GM to set himself above the rest. He just got lucky in the 6th round one year.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
    A bell curve?  I'm not sure you understand the term.  Maybe you mean you grade on a curve but given the Pats "C" grade that would mean you find about 15 teams better at drafting than the Pats.
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Babe, something tells me that you don't really believe most of what you're posting here about BB. I mean, if you've truly been a Pats fan long enough to remember Babe Parilli, then you must know that BB is by far the best talent evaluator/accumulator that the organization has ever had, and that he's still one of the best in the NFL today. Only Chuck Fairbanks in the mid-70s even comes close, in fact, and Chuck never won anything except one paltry AFC East crown in '78 (when his butt was already halfway out the door to Colorado). Do you truly believe that BB is that bad or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? Do you honestly think that "win the Super Bowl or the season is a failure" is the only way to evaluate a team's success? (That's what your, "I will submit the teams that have won Super Bowls in the last six years that BB has not," answer above seems to imply). Did those six teams who've won Super Bowls since 2004 have an enormous amount of veterans who all got old at basically the same time, while at the same time having assistant after assistant and front office member after front office member leave the organization for better jobs? (That's called lack of continuity, and very few organizations have had to deal with as much lack of continuity as the Pats in the last half-decade.) Did those six teams also qualify for the playoffs every year (but one) while going through the coaching/front office carousel and the aging/rebuilding process that the Pats have endured?  Back in the 80s when the Larry Bird Celtics were among the best teams in the NBA pretty much every year, I also fell for the "win the title or the season is a waste of time" viewpoint. I realize now that having such standards as a fan not only is completely unrealistic, it also dampens the amount of enjoyment one gets out of watching the games and following the teams. And oh by the way, those Celtics teams dropped off the face of the earth after 1988 because they did what BB has always refused to do: they held on to their old veterans out of a sense of loyalty, even though it was clear that their title-winning days were long over and even though the NBA, like the NFL, is a salary cap league. I'm not sure if you're serious or not about BB, but if you are, I'd take a step back, analyze where this franchise was before he came along (or at least before Parcells, then Kraft came along), analyze where it is today--even with their horrid and apparently unacceptable/disgraceful track record of no Super Bowl wins since 2004--and re-think your position a bit.
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

    I don't see it that way.

    The best thing that ever happened to our team is Brady, not BB.

    Actually, without Brady, BB's record is one of extreme mediocrity.

    I use to drink the BB kool-aide. I stopped.

    I just don't think it's unreasonable to find fault with fearless leader when despite having perhaps the best QB to ever play the game that we are 0 for the last 6 with a no show and two one and outs in the last 3.

    Spin it how you like, tell us how hard it is, but BB is not getting the job done.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Plenty of things please me. The way Brady plays QB, Wilfork plays NT, McCourty plays CB and BB coaches, all please me. The Pat's GM does not please me.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    OK, since we've established that "win the Super Bowl every year or you're a failure" is what you truly believe, tell me what GM you'd rather have running the Pats instead of BB?

    Polian? He's won 1 Super Bowl over three jobs and more than 25 years as a GM, and his current team has had not two one-and-done's, but SEVEN one-and-done's in the post-season. So I guess he's not the answer for the Pats.

    How about the Steelers? Great organization that's won two Super Bowls and appeared in three since 2005--and also missed the playoffs in 2006, went "one and done" in 2007 and missed the playoffs in 2009. I guess that eliminates them from the picture as well.

    The Saints? Came on the scene with a Super Bowl win in 2009 after a very good 4-year run of accumulating talent. But wait, they finished second in their division and went "one and done" in the 2010 playoffs---losing to a 7-9 team in fact. I guess their GM isn't the answer either.

    Maybe it's Green Bay, since they've now won the Super Bowl every single year since the 2010 season began. They do, in fact, have a great organization, but if they don't win it all this year, I guess they're failures, too.

    Do you see what I'm getting at?

    You can't really be all that serious about what you're posting here. You must be trying to just needle people and get a rise out of them, because at last check, there have been 45 Lombardi Trophies distributed since 1967, and not a single team owns all of them.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : I don't see it that way. The best thing that ever happened to our team is Brady, not BB. Actually, without Brady, BB's record is one of extreme mediocrity. I use to drink the BB kool-aide. I stopped. I just don't think it's unreasonable to find fault with fearless leader when despite having perhaps the best QB to ever play the game that we are 0 for the last 6 with a no show and two one and outs in the last 3. Spin it how you like, tell us how hard it is, but BB is not getting the job done.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    I have found fault with BB numerous times in the past. I even groaned this past April when he didn't draft Cam Jordan. But I also realize that he knows a lot more about the draft process than I, so my reaction to that non-pick was purely emotional and not analytically based.

    Your premise that Brady is the only reason why BB keeps churning out winning teams would be fine, were it not for 2008, when Brady wasn't around and the Pats still won 11 games (I know, I know, the schedule was softer than a Dairy Queen ice cream, but try getting 53 guys to stay focused for 16 weeks after they've just seen their franchise go limping off the field only 7 minutes into  the season---not an easy task).

    I really think you're just trying to provoke, because your views are far too dismissive of so many other factors that go into producing a winning football team in the modern NFL.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : How is acknowledging BB and Brady as arguably the best at their craft, all time, and realizing as it unfolds as "worshipping"? I would argue your penchant for continuing to drive home this idea that ONLY Brady is great, sort of makes you smell like a troll posing as a Pats fan, with an agenda against BB. 85-90% of the NFL fanbases would think you are as mad as a rat in a szhit house.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I realize the misconception that BB is  a team building genius is deeply ingrained in not only Pat fan mentality, but football fans in general. But the facts just don't bear this out.

    I don't fall into the typical fan spin on things. I don't care if Favre retires or not and don't hold him in contempt because he has struggled with being decisive. I don't have a problem with TO saying stupid things. I don't rankle at Randy Moss being perceived as not trying. I don't buy into the Masnning MVP vote spin on greatness.

    I look at the bottom line. And the bottom line is that as a GM BB is not getting the job done, and has for the most part never gotten it done.

    He inherited a half dozen key players from previous regimes, added a few key guys, and got lucky in the 6th round and that affected the result dramatically over a 4 year period. That is the extent of his GM achievements through his career.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Yes, afterall everyone knows offense wins championships.  Sort of like in SB 42. Right? Belichick was coach of the year in 2008 and 2010 and he should have been executive of the year in 2010 as well. "Just not getting it done", eh, there, Babe?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


    I have never said BB wasn't a good coach.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : A bell curve?  I'm not sure you understand the term.  Maybe you mean you grade on a curve but given the Pats "C" grade that would mean you find about 15 teams better at drafting than the Pats.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]

    A bell curve displays deviations from the average as rare. That would mean that only a very few teams would draft really well, or very poorly.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : He won't answer it. I asked him to list his top GMs and he refused.  It's what Undies does when he's asked a simple question. Contexts are trolls and irrationals worst nightmare. Nice job.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I have answered it before.

    The answer is whoever is making choices for the Steelers, Colts, Saints, Packers and Giants, who have all won SBs since BB won one.

    Context is usually spin. The bottom line is reality. The bottom line is BB isn't getting the job done.


     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Yes, but you said he isn't a good GM.  The fact you don't acknowledge his ability to find diamonds in the rough also proves you are being irrational. BJGE and Woodhead were plopped into this offense last year and were superb.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


    I never said he was a bad GM. I said he was average and average isn't going to get the job done. Average GMs make  some good decisions and bad decisions. Of course he has made SOME good moves.

    Bottom line: 0 for the last 6 with a no show and 2 one and outs in the last 3 despite the HOF QB.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : I have answered it before. The answer is whoever is making choices for the Steelers, Colts, Saints, Packers and Giants, who have all won SBs since BB won one. Context is usually spin. The bottom line is reality. The bottom line is BB isn't getting the job done.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    And, with the exception of Green Bay, who hasn't had a chance to defend its title yet, every single one of those teams has either missed the playoffs multiple times, or gone "one and done" at least once in the post-season since winning their Super Bowls.

    So, apparently, their GMs aren't up to your standards either.

    And the Colts haven't won a SB in almost 5 years now; the Giants, four years.

    Is your statute of limitations on "recent" SB wins more lenient for those teams?

    I guess a better question than that would be...would you rather have the Giants' GM than Belichick? OK, you have indicated that you would.

    Since winning the SB in 2007, the Giants have gone "one and done" in the 2008 playoffs (after a first round bye, no less), missed the playoffs in 2009 and missed the playoffs in 2010.

    Apparently, you prefer winning a Super Bowl one year and then missing the playoffs two of the next three years, as long as that Super Bowl victory occurred more recently than 2004.
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : And, with the exception of Green Bay, who hasn't had a chance to defend its title yet, every single one of those teams has either missed the playoffs multiple times, or gone "one and done" at least once in the post-season since winning their Super Bowls. So, apparently, their GMs aren't up to your standards either. And the Colts haven't won a SB in almost 5 years now; the Giants, four years. Is your statute of limitations on "recent" SB wins more lenient for those teams?
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

    I am just noting those who have succeeded in the time span BB has not. That would be the last 6 years.
     
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