Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    Babe. Welker, Meriweather, Mankins, Wilfork, Mayo and McCourty. All pro-bowlers, you mean to tell me Belichick had little or nothing to do with drafting or acquiring these guys. By contrast the Colts had 4 players. All of them drafted before 2004. As you can see the Pats have acquired 5 pro bowl calibre players since 2004. The Jets (who normally draft higher ) have three Ferguson, Revis, and Mangold. We have 5 players from varied positions (DBs 2, D linemen 1, O linemen 1, LBs 1, WRs 1). Naturally I left both Brady and Manning out (first time ever ?). Unless you think that it's remarkably easy for to build a team like an all-star team (eg: MLB), Belichick has done a great job in replacing pro bowl players with pro bowl players and acquiring players that fit his system. BTW you seem like a draft do-over guy, sorry real the NFL doesn't work that way and it ain't exactly fantasy football.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Not true. In 2008 Brady went down.  Forget that season. Also, what you say about 2007 is also out the window because we know the floating duck by Eli was pure luck. You writing "they haven't won a SB in 6 years" sounds far worse than the reality. You sound an awful lot like a Jets troll to me.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Still with the Jet's troll delusion? The Jets are a cockroach infestation our division to me.

    Whatever, 0 for the last 6. That's the bottom line. That is unacceptable. The buck stops at BB. Either get the damned job done or give the job to somebody else.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]So, that leaves 27 other teams who haven't won a SB, also in 6 years, so that puts BB somewhere in the top 5-10 range for GMs, worst case, so that;s not "average". Glad I could help with the math.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    To solve the equation for you try plugging in, "Brady".
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Babe. Welker, Meriweather, Mankins, Wilfork, Mayo and McCourty. All pro-bowlers, you mean to tell me Belichick had little or nothing to do with drafting or acquiring these guys. By contrast the Colts had 4 players. All of them drafted before 2004. As you can see the Pats have acquired 5 pro bowl calibre players since 2004. The Jets (who normally draft higher ) have three Ferguson, Revis, and Mangold. We have 5 players from varied positions (DBs 2, D linemen 1, O linemen 1, LBs 1, WRs 1). Naturally I left both Brady and Manning out (first time ever ?). Unless you think that it's remarkably easy for to build a team like an all-star team (eg: MLB), Belichick has done a great job in replacing pro bowl players with pro bowl players and acquiring players that fit his system. BTW you seem like a draft do-over guy, sorry real the NFL doesn't work that way and it ain't exactly fantasy football.
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz[/QUOTE]

    Bottom line JHR.

    The Jets went to the last two AFC Championships. We went one and out both times. Unacceptable. The buck stops at BB.

    It doesn't matter if he has 22 pro-bowlers. The goal isn't to win the pro-bowl count.

    BB is not getting the job done. Period.
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Or, plug in an upper echelon QB for the teams you just listed who also have top notch QBs (Saints, Colts, Steelers, etc). What is the difference?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    The difference is they have won SBs in the time we have not.

    That tells me either their QBs are better than Brady, or the rest of their team is better than ours. And in either case, the buck still stops at BB.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : What? The Jets haven't won an AFC Championship EVER!!!! Is this where Babe Parilli's character is exposed???  Hmmm.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    We weren't talking about EVER. We were talking about the last couple of years in this instance.

    I am exposed. Exposed as a non kool-aide drinker.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : I can find little in what you say to dispute. Well said.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

         Not to pile on, Babe...but you've repeatedly criticized BB for trading current picks for future picks...when that strategy has served him, and the Patriots, well. For example:

    1.) In 2003, the Pats traded their 19th overall pick to the Baltimore Ravens, which they used to select QB Kyle Boller. In exchange, the Pats obtained the Ravens 41st overall selection (used to select DB Eugene Wilson), and the Ravens #1 pick in 2004 (used to select DT Vince Wilfolk);

    2.) In 2005, the Pats traded their 64th overall pick to the Ravens, which they used to select OT Adam Terry, for the Baltimore's 84th overall pick (used to select CB Ellis Hobbs), their 6th round pick (#206 overall), and their third round pick in 2006 (this pick turned out to be the 75th pick overall, and was wasted, along with the Pats' 52nd overall pick, in the horrific trade-up deal for WR Chad Jackson);

    3.) In 2007, the Pats traded their 28th overall pick to the San Francisco 49ers (which the 49ers used to select OT Joe Staley), for SF's 4th round pick (#110 overall - which the Pats flipped to the Raiders for Randy Moss), and the 49ers' #1 pick in 2008...which was flipped, and used to select ILB Jerod Mayo.

    4.) In 2008, the Patriots traded their 69th overall pick to the San Diego Chargers, who used the pick on FB Jacob Hester. In exchange, the Pats' received the Chargers' second round pick in 2009, which they used in a trade-up to land DT Ron Brace;
     
    5.) In 2009, the Pats traded their 26th and 162nd overall picks (from Baltimore) which GB used to select pro bowl LB Clay Matthews, and OG Jamon Meridith. In exchange, the Pats obtained the 41st, 73rd, and 83rd overall picks. The Pats unfortunately used that 41st pick on CB Darius Butler. The 73rd selection was traded to Jacksonville, who the Jags used to select DB Derrick Cox. In return, the Pats got the Jags' second round pick in 2010 (44th overall, which the Pats packaged with their 190th overall pick to move up two spots, and select TE Rob Gronkowski), and used the 83rd overall pick to select WR Brandon Tate. The Pats also traded their 89th overall selection to the Tennessee Titans (used to select TE Jared Cook) for the Titans 2nd round pick in 2010...which turned out to be the 47th overall selection. The Pats traded it to Arizona for the Cards' 58th overall pick and their 89th overall pick (traded to Carolina, who used the pick to draft WR Armanti Edwards), for the Panthers' second round pick in 2011 (used to select DB Ras-I Dowling). They then traded the 58th overall pick to Houston, for the Texans' 62nd (used to select ILB Brandon Spikes) and 150th overall selection...which the Pats used to draft punter, Zoltan The Magnificent.

    6.) In 2011, the Pats traded their 28th overall pick to New Orleans, who used the pick to select RB Mark Ingram. In return, the Pats' got the Saints 56th overall pick (used to select RB Shane Vereen), and the Saints' #1 pick in 2012. The Pats later traded their 92nd and 125th overall picks to the Oakland Raiders for Uncle Al's second round pick in 2012. 

         As you can see, trading for future picks has worked very well for the Patriots...while the lone major trade-up was a disaster. The other lesson learned? Beware of dealing with Ted Thompson of the Green Bay Packers.

         Nonetheless, other than the Green Bay trades involving the Jackson trade-up and the Matthews mistake (though the Pats did come away with Gronk, Tate, and (gag) Butler...and Gronk looks to be pro-bowl material)...the Pats have committed highway robbery by trading present for future picks.   
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : I am just noting those who have succeeded in the time span BB has not. That would be the last 6 years.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Babe, the Steelers and Giants have both missed the playoffs multiple times since 2005. Yes, they've won Super Bowls since then, too, but in addition to having enough talent to win a Super Bowl, you also need some luck these days. Certainly, the Giants got a huge dose of it on the helmet catch play; and certainly, the Steelers got some big-time help from the refs in Super Bowl 40, not to mention getting to face 8-8 (San Diego), 11-5 (Baltimore, with a rookie QB), and 9-7 (Arizona) teams in the post-season during their "grueling" drive to a Super Bowl title in 2008. The Colts in 2006 faced Damon Huard, an old Steve McNair, and Rex Grossman at QB in three of their four post-season games. If that's not luck--especially when your defense was statistically one of the worst in NFL history during the regular season--then I don't know what is. Against the Pats in the AFCCG that year, the officiating fiascos that seriously damaged NE's chances to win that game have been well-documented on this board, and hundreds of others.

    The Saints in 2009 were pushed all over their home field for 60 minutes by Minnesota in the NFC title game, yet six Minnie turnovers--many of the "unforced" variety--gave N.O. a chance to win on OT. Once in OT, the officials helped them out on two key plays, and they were able to get into FG range and win the game.

    In 2010 Green Bay snuck into the playoffs as a wild card on the final Sunday, then got to play Chicago without Jay Cutler for most of the second half in the NFC title game. I happen to believe that the Packers were the best team in the league last year anyway, and that their 10-6 regular season actually represented an underachievement for them, but still, even they got some luck in the post-season on their way to a Lombardi Trophy.

    From 2001 to 2004, the Pats were good, and they also got the breaks (actually, in 2004 they were just flat-out good and didn't need any breaks); since 2005, they've been good--good enough to win it all a couple of those years, in fact--but the breaks haven't been there.

    Eventually, that "good fortune" worm will turn back in their favor; and when it does, they've already got the talent on hand to take advantage of it.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : What? The Jets haven't won an AFC Championship EVER!!!! Is this where Babe Parilli's character is exposed???  Hmmm.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

         Babe's not a bad guy, and he's certainly not a Jets' troll. He's just sick and tired, as we all are, of seeing the Patriots' no pass-rush "D". Like you, I don't agree with him. But he's not an obnoxious, lying boor...like you know who. 

         Give Babe credit for conceding that you made some good points. Have you ever seen our Indy friend do that?   
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections :      Babe's not a bad guy. He's just sick and tired, as we all are, of seeing the Patriots' no pass-rush "D". Like you, I don't agree with him. But he's not an obnoxious, lying troll, like you know who.       Give Babe credit for conceding that you made some good points. Have you ever seen our Indy friend do that?   
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Yes, we're all sick and tired of no pass rush. I agree 100% with Babe on that. I do hope that perhaps the pass rushing talent is already on the roster and that it just needs a little more time to develop. There's also free agency after the lockout lifts. Perhaps some help will come from there.

    I agree with Babe about the pass rush, but he does seem to be using that apparent shortcoming to tar BB's entire tenure in NE as nothing but a product of getting "lucky" with a 6th round pick in 2000. That seems a bit odd and more than a little unreasonable to me.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Yes, we're all sick and tired of no pass rush. I agree 100% with Babe on that. I do hope that perhaps the pass rushing talent is already on the roster and that it just needs a little more time to develop. There's also free agency after the lockout lifts. Perhaps some help will come from there. I agree with Babe about the pass rush, but he does seem to be using that apparent shortcoming to tar BB's entire tenure in NE as nothing but a product of getting "lucky" with a 6th round pick in 2000. That seems a bit odd to me.
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

         After that embarrassing loss to the Jets, he's just venting. Can you really blame him?
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Not sure how delusional it is. We've seen them jump through hoops to create characters to troll here. You aren't far off. I will say if you are a troll, you've won the award for keeping your true sentiments and fandom under wraps. Maybe you should use that discipline for something constructive? Gee, Phat Rex disappears and Babe Parilli is here regularly. Hmm. So, were you in a mental ward as a Pats fan from 1960-2000? You must have written a lot of letters to the Sullivans, Kiam and Orthwein asking them to get a robotic, almost perfect GM in the house down there in Foxborough.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    In those days we didn't have HOF QBs so expectations were not so high.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections :      Not to pile on, Babe...but you've repeatedly criticized BB for trading current picks for future picks...when that strategy has served him, and the Patriots, well. For example: 1.) In 2003, the Pats traded their 19th overall pick to the Baltimore Ravens, which they used to select QB Kyle Boller. In exchange, the Pats obtained the Ravens 41st overall selection (used to select DB Eugene Wilson), and the Ravens #1 pick in 2004 (used to select DT Vince Wilfolk); 2.) In 2005, the Pats traded their 64th overall pick to the Ravens, which they used to select OT Adam Terry, for the Baltimore's 84th overall pick (used to select CB Ellis Hobbs), their 6th round pick (#206 overall), and their third round pick in 2006 (this pick turned out to be the 75th pick overall, and was wasted, along with the Pats' 52nd overall pick, in the horrific trade-up deal for WR Chad Jackson); 3.) In 2007, the Pats traded their 28th overall pick to the San Francisco 49ers (which the 49ers used to select OT Joe Staley), for SF's 4th round pick (#110 overall - which the Pats flipped to the Raiders for Randy Moss), and the 49ers' #1 pick in 2008...which was flipped, and used to select ILB Jerod Mayo. 4.) In 2008, the Patriots traded their 69th overall pick to the San Diego Chargers, who used the pick on FB Jacob Hester. In exchange, the Pats' received the Chargers' second round pick in 2009, which they used in a trade-up to land DT Ron Brace;   5.) In 2009, the Pats traded their 26th and 162nd overall picks (from Baltimore) which GB used to select pro bowl LB Clay Matthews, and OG Jamon Meridith. In exchange, the Pats obtained the 41st, 73rd, and 83rd overall picks. The Pats unfortunately used that 41st pick on CB Darius Butler. The 73rd selection was traded to Jacksonville, who the Jags used to select DB Derrick Cox. In return, the Pats got the Jags' second round pick in 2010 (44th overall, which the Pats packaged with their 190th overall pick to move up two spots, and select TE Rob Gronkowski), and used the 83rd overall pick to select WR Brandon Tate. The Pats also traded their 89th overall selection to the Tennessee Titans (used to select TE Jared Cook) for the Titans 2nd round pick in 2010...which turned out to be the 47th overall selection. The Pats traded it to Arizona for the Cards' 58th overall pick and their 89th overall pick (traded to Carolina, who used the pick to draft WR Armanti Edwards), for the Panthers' second round pick in 2011 (used to select DB Ras-I Dowling). They then traded the 58th overall pick to Houston, for the Texans' 62nd (used to select ILB Brandon Spikes) and 150th overall selection...which the Pats used to draft punter, Zoltan The Magnificent. 6.) In 2011, the Pats traded their 28th overall pick to New Orleans, who used the pick to select RB Mark Ingram. In return, the Pats' got the Saints 56th overall pick (used to select RB Shane Vereen), and the Saints' #1 pick in 2012. The Pats later traded their 92nd and 125th overall picks to the Oakland Raiders for Uncle Al's second round pick in 2012.       As you can see, trading for future picks has worked very well for the Patriots...while the lone major trade-up was a disaster. The other lesson learned? Beware of dealing with Ted Thompson of the Green Bay Packers.      Nonetheless, other than the Green Bay trades involving the Jackson trade-up and the Matthews mistake (though the Pats did come away with Gronk, Tate, and (gag) Butler...and Gronk looks to be pro-bowl material)...the Pats have committed highway robbery by trading present for future picks.   
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    I have said BB is a good trader TP. It is his drafting and FA signings that have not been good enough apparently.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections :      After that embarrassing loss to the Jets, he's just venting. Can you really blame him?
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    It was a poor performance across the board, no question. But the blame should be shared equally across all three phases of the game (O, D, and ST), since all three phases were subpar that day. I don't think BB's alleged lack of prowess as a GM is the reason why they played poorly and lost a playoff game to a team that six weeks earlier they had beaten by 42 points on the same field. It was just a bad day, and it happens in the NFL. I was sick over the loss, too, especially because of which team beat them; but I also realize that the 2010 team made a tremendous leap forward with a young roster, during a rebuilding year, and that the Pats are well-positioned to be a strong SB contender for the next few years, at least. 

    I also realize that "win it all or the season is a failure" is a great attitude to have if you're a player, but a lousy one to have if you're a fan, because you will end up being bitterly disappointed almost every year, no matter what team you follow, and you'll never be able to enjoy the games as much as you should. (I'm a recovering "win it all or don't bother to show up" addict myself--Celtics, 1980s--so I know of which I speak. I was miserable to be around back then if the C's season didn't end with an NBA title.)
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]For the record, the only credence Babe has in his premise is that the base foundation for the 2001-2004 SB teams, or 2007 even, were players (some) Only McGinest, Bruschi, Law and maybe a Ted Johnson and Lawyer MIlloy were non-BB picks. Or Vinatieri, too. Meanwhile, Brady, Seymour, Koppen, Deion Branch, David Givens, Samuel, Wilfork, Warren, etc, were BB picks. This doesn't count effective other picks who were more complementary like Dan Graham, Damien Woody, Eugene Wilson, etc. If Babe left the Boston area he'd find fans either drooling over what we have, or fans insanely jealous to the point you can't mention the word "Pats" in front of them without them becoming enraged.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

         Give the guy a break, Your Majesty. He's just frustrated over those three straight horrible losses...the gut-wrenching loss to Goober and the Giants, ruining the perfect season....the Baltimore blow-out in Foxboro, and the embarrassing debacle against the hated Jets. Patriots' teams of "01-04 never used to lose big games, like the last three.

         What Babe doesn't seem to accept is that, since 2008, the Pats have been rebuilding, on the fly. I'm encouraged, despite those three recent losses. The Pats are younger, and getting better.  
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]For the record, the only credence Babe has in his premise is that the base foundation for the 2001-2004 SB teams, or 2007 even, were players (some) Only McGinest, Bruschi, Law and maybe a Ted Johnson and Lawyer MIlloy were non-BB picks. Or Vinatieri, too. Meanwhile, Brady, Seymour, Koppen, Deion Branch, David Givens, Samuel, Wilfork, Warren, etc, were BB picks. This doesn't count effective other picks who were more complementary like Dan Graham, Damien Woody, Eugene Wilson, etc. If Babe left the Boston area he'd find fans either drooling over what we have, or fans insanely jealous to the point you can't mention the word "Pats" in front of them without them becoming enraged.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Who wouldn't drool at the prospect of having the greatest QB ever?


    The names you are looking for I believe are:

    McGinist, Bruschi, Law, Johnson, Milloy, Tebucky Jones, Troy Brown, Kevin Faulk, Vinatieri, Woody and Rutledge.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE] Eventually, that "good fortune" worm will turn back in their favor; and when it does, they've already got the talent on hand to take advantage of it.
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

    I hope you're right.
     

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