Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Oh come on.  Beisel and Brown were last minute moves because of Bruschi's stroke and his delay in coming back.  Again, you don't just have 3-4 Front 7 people falling off trees, Babe. Please learn a bit about the NFL elsewhere before making silly comments.  CHad Brown had some 3-4 experience but just didn't care enough to want to work hard enough, apparently. He was done. And enough with this "boneheaded Spygate scandal" line.  It was a witch hunt and everyone knows it. The punishment was CLEARLY Draconian in nature and Goodell never punished the Jets in 2006 or any other team who also was in violation, according to him. Real Pats fans know EXACTLY what went down with that situation.  Maybe you need to read up, Babe. A new sheriff in town trying to put his foot down has nothing to do with Belichick being a bonehead. We've seen far more egregious IN GAME activity go on that went either unpunished or the team was penalized far less.  Goodell taking away NE's 2008 1st rd pick was pressure from jealous teams/owners/GMs, the media and even fans who wanted blood. Period. Once that tape leaked, the media had a field day and Goodell buckled showing a lack of leadership and control/understanding of what the Jets were doing. Or, he was in on it and didn't care.   Besides, a dominant team in his league is bad for business, if you know what I mean.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Salary cap cheating by Denver = 3rd round pick and a fine.

    Stealing signals with a video camera instead of binoculars (like everyone else did it, and continues to do it today) = 1st round pick and a record fine for the head coach.

    That's pretty much all you need to know about how "serious" the whole Spygate nonsense was.

    The Pats and their hated head coach were forced to fork over a pound of flesh to make the bloodthirsty lions in the media and the rest of the league happy--and they also had to keep their mouths shut about what they (BB) know has gone on, and continues to go on, in the NFL when it comes to "chicanery," on and off the field. And let's be honest: the severity of the punishment was also reflective of Goodell's personal anger towards BB for BB ignoring his memo--BB was wrong to do that, of course, but Goodell's severe overpunishment had more to do with the memo being ignored than with the violation of an extremely obscure (some would say foolish) rule.

    I've always believed that had the whole thing happened in 2006, before Goodell had already embarked on his crusade to severely suspend and fine every player in the league who even looked as though he may have done something wrong off the field, then the  outcry for him to "do something" about the video camera incident would have been more muted; and the punishment would have fit the crime (i.e.--maybe a $50K fine and a 4th round pick; not the severe, ludicrous overpunishment that was actually handed down).

    And, of course, had BB played nice with the media all those years leading up to Spygate, the coverage of the whole thing would have been much more muted as well, and it certainly wouldn't have dragged on for the entire season, and into the following offseason. But the media had to exact "revenge" on BB, and very few entities on this planet know how to--and have the power to--exact revenge on an "enemy" as well as the media.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    This will make Babe's day....

    On Grantland.com, the new website in which Bill Simmons serves as editor-in-chief, writer Bill Barnwell runs a reverse play against the NFL Network's recent Top 100 players poll. 

    "Who cares if somebody puts Peyton Manning ahead of Tom Brady or vice versa? They're both great. A much more interesting use of the players' time would have been to list the most worthless players in the NFL,". Barnwell writes. "So, here we go … This list of the 25 worst players in the league accounts for playing time, expectations, and salary. It focuses on the 2010 season ..." 

    Two players with Patriots ties appear on the list. 

    Running back Laurence Maroney, the team's first-round pick in 2006, makes the cut at 25. 

    "Maroney spent most of his time in New England on the training table or working on his dreads, but the Broncos still dealt a fourth-round pick (getting a sixth-rounder in return) for a guy who promptly gained 74 yards on 36 carries," Barnwell writes. "Then he got arrested for marijuana possession after a Rick Ross concert, which would only have been worse if Rick Ross actually made the arrest." 

    Cornerback Darius Butler ranks 10th

    "Butler began the season as a starter by allowing teams to go 26-of-35 for 253 yards in two games against him (plus two pass interference calls)," Barnwell writes. "He got benched and came in for three plays the following game, allowing a completion and missing a tackle before disappearing again. It took him six weeks to get any playing time after that."
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Of course. That's why in 2006, when the Jets were supposedly no in correct form filming in NE, nothing happened. It's also why, no NFL fan had ever heard of anything being done about such a violation, nor did any team care. Everything you said above is complete fact.   We'll never see a witch hunt like that again as long as we live.  I am convinced of that.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    King, I just pray, and PRAY HARD, that when BB retires he finally pens the ultimate "tell all" about his career in the NFL, and then dishes ALL of the dirt he has on other teams and what they've done--and have continued to do since 2007--that was "illegal." (I feel dirty even using that term, because in the end it's just what football teams do--most if not all of them.)

    It's not like BB to talk about stuff like that, and he probably doesn't even care at this point because he knows that what he was doing was quite common, and an accepted practice (and he didn't think it up himself either--he had to have learned it from someone)--before Red Light Goodell came along and decided that he had to make a big deal out of it. But I just wish that some day BB changes his tune and lets it all hang out in print. It will be one fascinating, illuminating read.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    Anyone who says BB is bad at drafting is clueless...  If you had said average (frugal) at signing free agents I might have agreed but we've built this decade of dominance with draft picks.  Richard Seymour was the best Defensive lineman in the league for a long time (All Pro Team) and still dominates on a crappy Raider's team, don't make yourself sound silly by calling him average...

    The draft is part luck, how do you measure a man's heart?  It seems like some people here are portraying themselves as some kind of draft savants because they now have the benefit of hindsight, where were these people on draft day, I didn't see them posting their predictions.

    BB got the best Offensive Tackle in the draft, the best "large" cover Corner in the draft, the best QB prospect in the draft, the best blocking Tight End (who can also long snap) in the draft, possibly the best 3rd down back in the draft as well as an offensive lineman who, if he can beat cancer, will be a brutally dominating Guard as well as a pile driver of a runner from Auburn.  Anyone who can say with a straight face that we didn't have a good draft or that BB can't handle a draft is a jackhole.

     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    BUT NOW...HIS BEST:  1.) Selecting DE Richard Seymour over WR David Terrell, and others, as the media and fans wanted; Fans and media always like the flashy WR or RB. You win with great QB and defense in this league these days. Seymour played great through his rookie contract, but became a fraction of his former self once he got his money through the holdout. It was a great pick in the sense that it supercharged the D-line in the dynasty years. Overall it was merely a good pick, not great.
     
    RESPONSE: Please stop. Seymour is at least a border line Hall of Famer.

    C'mon TP, try to be objective. Really. The guy didn't make all-pro ever again once he got his fat contract. He finally made the pro-bowl again last year with the Raiders, in of course, the contract year after his score off the Pats with the holdout. He didn't make the pro-bowl for the better part of that fat contract. He was taken 6th overall. I said it was a good pick, I'm not going to call it great based on his mercenary ways and tendency to kick back when he gets the money.




    2.) His decision to play Tom Brady over Drew Bledsoe; No brainer. Brady was winning, Bledsoe was 5-11 the year before. Brady earned his spot on the team, earned the start when Bledsoe was hurt and earned keeping the job by winning.
     
    RESPONSE: As I recall it, many people thought that Bledsoe should get his job back when he regained his health. Many more thought that the Pats had a better chance of beating the Rams in the SB with Bledsoe starting, rather than Brady...who was playing on a somewhat gimpy ankle.

    Lots of people thought Drew was good. Lots of people thought Grogan was good. They weren't. If you were going to win a SB it was despite them, not because of them. I certainly wan't wanting Drew back. BB knew what he was going to do with Bledsoe. He saw it the year before. No brainer for BB despite what other clueless persons thought.

    3.) The decision to trade his 19th overall pick in the 2003 draft...and then using the picks obtained to select DB Eugene Wilson, and NT Vince Wilfolk; Wilfork was a good pick, and overall BB has been a good trader.
     
    RESPONSE: Agreed.

     4.) His decision to release Lawyer Milloy in 2003 was correct...and established himself as the undisputed leader of the franchise; Milloy was a money issue whose play was deteriorating.
     
    RESPONSE: True...but don't you remember all the heat BB took from his players and the media for this move...especially after Milloy went to Buffalo, and the Bills crushed the Pats, 31-0, in game one? Don't you agree that his decision to cut Milloy, and how BB handled it, entrenched his position as the man in charge of the Patriots?

    I remember well the rantings of fools who don't know their azz from their elbow. The same ones who demanded we draft Dez Bryant, that cried when Vinatieri went to the Colts, who wanted us to pay Asante top money. BB doesn't listen to them; neither do I.




        5.) Grand larceny committed against the Pittsburgh Steelers with the signing of UFA, Mike Vrabel; Good signing obviously. I will give you Beisel and Brown in answer to that.

    RESPONSE: If you read my previous post above, you would see that I included the Beisel signing as one of BB's boners. But, the discussion here centers only on his good moves. The signing of Vrabel was a great one. You really don't want to match good move against bad. I've left out so many good ones, such as the acquisition of RBs Corey Dillon, Danny Woodhead, and Antwain Smith...DTsTed Washington, Keith Traylor, and Mike Wright, WRs Jabar Gaffney, and David Patten, not to mention getting WR David Givens with a 7th round pick...and the salvaging of Rodney Harrison from the free ageny scrap-heap.   

    The problem for you is Pat, that you can't discern the good from the filler. Dillon, Washington, Wright and Harrison were pretty good. The rest are filler or unproven. GMs all over the league find guys of this caliber. It's not a mark of genius as a GM.


     6.) The trade made with the 49ers in 2007, which ended up netting the Patriots Randy Moss, and Jarod Mayo; Yup, good trader. Let's not forget the #1 we lost because of BB's boneheaded spygate scandal.
     
    RESPONSE: Desperation. You're starting to sound like UD6. Spygate was a NY media driven, manufactured scandal...where that tool of a Commissioner, Roger "Jets" Goodell...caved to media pressure, and punished the Patriots in an unprecedented manner. No one could have forseen such a harsh punishment, for such a relatively minor infraction.


    TP, just stop with the homer BS. People outside of Pat's Nation don't see it that way. And they are right to an extent. Taping after the memo was just plain idiotic, if not cheating. The problem isn't me sounding like UD6, the problem is your denial.The FACT is with the judgement of an idiot, BB brought the worst cheating scandal in league history down on the good name of our beloved team. Spin it all you like, but that is the bottom line. To this day it sickens me he brought this stench on us we have to scramble to somehow justify. IDIOTIC!

     7.) The selection of OG Logan Mankins with the 32nd overall pick in 2005; Good pick, but where was he in the '07 SB? And he has turned out to be a jerk .
     
    RESPONSE: Using this twisted logic, than Tom Brady sucks too...because he had a bad playoff game against the Jets. I don't think Mankins is a jerk. I do think that he followed some bad advise from his agent...and that Bob Kraft was unreasonable with him in demanding that Mankins apologize several different times, and in several different ways. I see Mankins and the Pats getting a long term deal done, fairly soon. 

    Sorry TP, Mankins is overrated and a jerk. Brady is neither of those.

    8.) Trading a 2nd and 7th round pick in 2007 to Miami to bring aboard RFA, Wes Welker; Yup, good trader.
     
    RESPONSE: Agreed.

     9.) Selection of CB Devin McCourty with 27th pick in 2010; Yup, good pick so far.
     
    RESPONSE: But for Suh, McCourty was the defensive rookie of the year.

    One year isn't a guarantee, but the prospects look great.

      10.) Trading Drew Bledsoe in 2002 for Buffalo's #1 draft choice in 2003...which was used to select DE Ty Warren. Again, good trader, but I'm not going to agree Warren was a great pick at #13 overall based on his results.
     
    RESPONSE: Warren has been a very solid player, until injuries caught up with him.

    Warren was a blah pick for going that high.


    11.) Selection of USC backup QB Matt Cassel with a 7th round pick in 2007. Cassel would win 11 games for BB in 2008...and be traded for the 34th overall selection of the 2009 draft (Patrick Chung). Cassel benifited from a weak schedule and the jury is still way out on Chung.
     
    RESPONSE: Oh...so Cassel suks? Didn't he just lead the Chiefs to the AFC West title?

    Sure, he has played well against weak schedules. Against a real schedule he has wilted. This year he won't be playing the NFC West. He will be coming our way. If he puts up numbers against this schedule I will agree he is good. But he won't. He will be right back to looking at a boot in his azz out of town like he was until last year's cushy schedule came along.

    Sorry, Babe...but it seems that BB's successes far outweigh his failures. Not really. Average GM. Average drafting. Below average FA signer. Good trader.
     
    RESPONSE: You're being ridiculous. As I've easily demonstrated above, BB has had more than his fair share of success with the draft, and through free agency. If you wish to call the signings of Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Jabar Gaffney, Danny Woodhead, BJGE, Antwain Smith, David Patten, Christian Fauria, Junior Seau, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Larry Izzo, Bryan Cox, Joe Andruzzi, Steven Neal, Tully Banta Cain, Gary Guyton, Gerard Warren, Kyle Arrington, Rob Ninkovich, Mike Wright, and Eric Moore "below average"...so be it


    What is with you reeling off names of mostly filler players? All GMs find guys like this to fill a roster. Yeah, most of these guys are average or below.

    If you stop overrating people "because if BB picked them they must be good" you will have a much clearer picture of where we actually are.

     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]This will make Babe's day.... Grantland: Two with Pats ties 'least valuable '     By Mike Reiss On Grantland.com, the new website in which Bill Simmons serves as editor-in-chief, writer Bill Barnwell runs a reverse play against the NFL Network's recent Top 100 players poll.  "Who cares if somebody puts Peyton Manning ahead of Tom Brady or vice versa? They're both great. A much more interesting use of the players' time would have been to list the most worthless players in the NFL,".  Barnwell writes . "So, here we go … This list of the 25 worst players in the league accounts for playing time, expectations, and salary. It focuses on the 2010 season ..."  Two players with Patriots ties appear on the list.  Running back Laurence Maroney , the team's first-round pick in 2006, makes the cut at 25.  "Maroney spent most of his time in New England on the training table or working on his dreads, but the Broncos still dealt a fourth-round pick (getting a sixth-rounder in return) for a guy who promptly gained 74 yards on 36 carries," Barnwell writes. "Then he got arrested for marijuana possession after a  Rick Ross concert , which would only have been worse if Rick Ross actually made the arrest."  Cornerback Darius Butler ranks 10th .  "Butler began the season as a starter by allowing teams to go 26-of-35 for 253 yards in two games against him (plus two pass interference calls)," Barnwell writes. "He got benched and came in for three plays the following game, allowing a completion and missing a tackle before disappearing again. It took him six weeks to get any playing time after that."
    Posted by Rocky[/QUOTE]

    Those would be two of BB's less stellar decisions.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : I mentioned this above (Tebucky Jones tag and trade). Classic case of a BB player excelling and then BB getting a much higer return than he should have. It was basically a fleecing to turn that around for Dillon. Babe is clueless.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I can't be that clueless wonderboy, because I have repeatedly said BB is a good trader. Get a clue.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Oh come on.  Beisel and Brown were last minute moves because of Bruschi's stroke and his delay in coming back.  Again, you don't just have 3-4 Front 7 people falling off trees, Babe. Please learn a bit about the NFL elsewhere before making silly comments.  CHad Brown had some 3-4 experience but just didn't care enough to want to work hard enough, apparently. He was done. And enough with this "boneheaded Spygate scandal" line.  It was a witch hunt and everyone knows it. The punishment was CLEARLY Draconian in nature and Goodell never punished the Jets in 2006 or any other team who also was in violation, according to him. Real Pats fans know EXACTLY what went down with that situation.  Maybe you need to read up, Babe. A new sheriff in town trying to put his foot down has nothing to do with Belichick being a bonehead. We've seen far more egregious IN GAME activity go on that went either unpunished or the team was penalized far less.  Goodell taking away NE's 2008 1st rd pick was pressure from jealous teams/owners/GMs, the media and even fans who wanted blood. Period. Once that tape leaked, the media had a field day and Goodell buckled showing a lack of leadership and control/understanding of what the Jets were doing. Or, he was in on it and didn't care.   Besides, a dominant team in his league is bad for business, if you know what I mean.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I have no doubt I know as much or more than you about  spygate.

    It wasn't a wich hunt. It was blatant stupidity on the part of the genius.

    Of course the punishment was too much. They should have punished the idiot that did it, not the team.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    If there is one thing I can agree on with Babe it's about Spygate.  BB forgot that he's on the receiving end of that stick when it comes to dealing with Goodell.  It show BB's ego is a bit inflated but what can you say about Goodell's? 

     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : I have no doubt I know as much or more than you about  spygate. It wasn't a wich hunt. It was blatant stupidity on the part of the genius. Of course the punishment was too much. They should have punished the idiot that did it, not the team.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Babe, I wouldn't go so far as to call BB blatantly stupid for not following the memo.

    First of all, I've heard from some quarters that the Pats' hierarchy didn't even realize that what they were doing was deemed "illegal," even after reading the memo, because the rule really IS that confusing and unclear. Granted, that's no excuse for not picking up the phone, calling New York, and asking Anderson or even Goodell himself just exactly what the memo meant going forward. THAT was the stupid action IMO--find out exactly what the NFL is trying to say first, before you go ahead and continue with the filming practice.

    Second, Bill Belichick has been in the NFL since 1975. From 1975-2006, he had seen dozens, if not more teams engage in this type of practice--and worse practices, for that matter. His mentor in New York, Bill Parcells, no doubt engaged in that same type of behavior, as did former division rivals (in both the NFC East and AFC East) like Jimmy Johnson. Not a single time from 1975-2006 did Bill Belichick ever witness any of those coaches get reprimanded or fined, or otherwise disciplined for that behavior.

    Moreover, none of those coaches were ever turned in by a rival--even a bitter rival--when they were "caught" engaging in that practice. The "code" among coaches was to tell each other to knock it off, and then move on. Only Mangini, who had an intense desire to embarrass BB, felt it was necessary to turn him in to the NFL for the filming practices.

    Trust me, if BB had ever imagined that a misdemeanor rules violation like that would be turned into Watergate and the Black Sox scandal all rolled into one, he never would have continued doing it.

    I'm sure that he was shocked when first Goodell, and then the media, made such a big deal out of such a minor issue.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]I always felt the dead giveaway with the Walsh tapes was the one that had him filming across from the Pitt sideline, during the AFC title game in 2001. If you have a brain, which we know Trey Wingo, Schlereth  and Cris Carter don't or purposely didn't that day, it's pretty obvious that's a discrepancy with the claim against NE. Sunny day, road stadium, clealry given that spot by Steelers officials.  Why?  If it was not legal to have a shot across the field, why did Pitt allow it? Hmmm. I also thought it was interesting, that AFTER NE won their 2001 SB, it was only then did their road filming showcase Walsh/whoever else they employed, on the sidelines and not in a spot similar to what we saw on the tape of the 2001 AFC title game. That right there proves Belichick's statements were true and consistent. Could it be, that some teams didn't want to have the visiting team filming the game, because they saw it as a homefield advatnage of their own, so they never provided the location like they are supposed to? Hmmm. Sort of smells like gamesmanship to me. Gamesmanship that the Jets decided to use to an adavantage by smearing NE, as a way to try to take them down as they build a new stadium and need to show movement to succcess. Hmmmm.  Hmmm. If I am SD, for example, a playoff type team in 2002, maybe I don't want to be so nice to the defending SB champ on my home turf.  Maybe I conveniently don't have a specified location handy.  Hmmm. The facts remain clear, that this playful posturing down by teams to one another has gone on for decades, not just in the NFL, but in sports. What's pathetic is the media and fans acted like filming was not legal and that NE's own coaches were never, ever filmed, which somehow made it seem like ONLY NE had some kind of an advantage.  And there was no connection between the Jets/Pats longstanding feud, the 2006 incident in Foxborough, etc. The Pats were clearly set up. Why, to this day, is filming allowed? Why are 23 year old interns responsible for what is shot on gameday? Hmmm. Every single fact points to it being a witch hunt stemming from NE's success and jealousy towards that success. Isn't it why it's still brought up today, almost 5 years later?  Fear. Fear that NE has just quietly rebuilt and is setting up for more runs at SBs. Yup.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I'm not so much into the conspiracy theories--just like I wasn't into the pre-Spygate conspiracy theories that the "Pats have the NFL refs in their back pockets" nonsense that jealous fans of other teams (Raiders, Colts, Rams, etc.) concocted after the Pats began winning championships "without any superstars" on their roster.

    That said, your point about Walsh filming FROM THE STANDS BEHIND THE END ZONE IN VISITING STADIUMS like Pittsburgh's is very important. Obviously, the home team HAD TO KNOW about that, because it's their stadium for God's sake, and they control access to those areas. That, more than anything else, is why the whole episode was a farce, from Goodell's insanely incompetent handling of it to the media's insanely hyperbolic, breathless, agenda-driven coverage of it.

    That Schlereth constantly deflected counter claims from Pats fans about his Broncos teams cheating on the salary cap and then winning Super Bowls just proves that the whole thing was never about the "severity" of the offense; it was all about agendas and TV ratings.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    this arguement from  bab(e) is the same arguement in the  patriots defense thread... his premise contradicts itself... hes a good coach but a bad team builder...lmao

    noone has been better than the pats over the last 10 years noone... he is the ultimate teambuilder... he uses all the facets available to gms that are at their disposal... ie the draft, trades, free agents, undrafted free agents....and there is so much more he does that does not even get recognized...   not every pick, trade or free agent will work out and he has shown that he is not afraid to cut his losses and move on quickly but really the bottom line is ....that the patriots are perennial playoff teams under his watch... have been to four Suber bowls which could easily have been 6,  and won three... and we are quickly closing in on some more....  you cant argue with that... but everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

    what did forrest gump say about that???  oh ya.. stupid is as stupid does
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]BUT NOW...HIS BEST:  1.) Selecting DE Richard Seymour over WR David Terrell, and others, as the media and fans wanted; Fans and media always like the flashy WR or RB. You win with great QB and defense in this league these days. Seymour played great through his rookie contract, but became a fraction of his former self once he got his money through the holdout. It was a great pick in the sense that it supercharged the D-line in the dynasty years. Overall it was merely a good pick, not great.   RESPONSE: Please stop. Seymour is at least a border line Hall of Famer. C'mon TP, try to be objective. Really. The guy didn't make all-pro ever again once he got his fat contract. He finally made the pro-bowl again last year with the Raiders, in of course, the contract year after his score off the Pats with the holdout. He didn't make the pro-bowl for the better part of that fat contract. He was taken 6th overall. I said it was a good pick, I'm not going to call it great based on his mercenary ways and tendency to kick back when he gets the money.
     
    RESPONSE: Oh please! Seymour was the centerpiece around which the Pats' defense, which won 3 SB in 4 years, was built. But for some shady officiating In Indy, and a miraculous catch by David Tyree, it would have been a defense that won five championships in 7 years. Is he a Hall of Famer? Moat likely: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/11/raiders-dt-richard-seymour-future-hall-of-famer/1 

    2.) His decision to play Tom Brady over Drew Bledsoe; No brainer. Brady was winning, Bledsoe was 5-11 the year before. Brady earned his spot on the team, earned the start when Bledsoe was hurt and earned keeping the job by winning.   RESPONSE: As I recall it, many people thought that Bledsoe should get his job back when he regained his health. Many more thought that the Pats had a better chance of beating the Rams in the SB with Bledsoe starting, rather than Brady...who was playing on a somewhat gimpy ankle. Lots of people thought Drew was good. Lots of people thought Grogan was good. They weren't.
     
    RESPONSE: Absurd! Both Grogan and Bledsoe were good NFL Qs...though neither of them were  as good as Tom Brady. When BB went with Brady over Bledsoe, Brady as an unknown quantity. Bledsoe was a three time pro-bowl QB, with playoff and SB experience...when BB made his choice. Bledsoe made his 4th pro-bowl with Buffalo in 2002. grogan had some great years with the Pats in 1973-1976. But for the not so divine intervention of Ben Dreith, he would have led the Patriots to their first world championship.

    If you were going to win a SB it was despite them, not because of them. I certainly wan't wanting Drew back. BB knew what he was going to do with Bledsoe. He saw it the year before. No brainer for BB despite what other clueless persons thought.

    RESPONSE: More absurdities! If Bledsoe was so bad, why did the Buffalo Bills trade a first round pick for him? Why did he make the pro-bowl in Buffalo? The Pats were one of the best teams in the AFC in the mid 70s with Grogan at the helm. 

    3.) The decision to trade his 19th overall pick in the 2003 draft...and then using the picks obtained to select DB Eugene Wilson, and NT Vince Wilfolk; Wilfork was a good pick, and overall BB has been a good trader.   RESPONSE: Agreed.
     
    4.) His decision to release Lawyer Milloy in 2003 was correct...and established himself as the undisputed leader of the franchise; Milloy was a money issue whose play was deteriorating.   RESPONSE: True...but don't you remember all the heat BB took from his players and the media for this move...especially after Milloy went to Buffalo, and the Bills crushed the Pats, 31-0, in game one? Don't you agree that his decision to cut Milloy, and how BB handled it, entrenched his position as the man in charge of the Patriots? I remember well the rantings of fools who don't know their azz from their elbow. The same ones who demanded we draft Dez Bryant, that cried when Vinatieri went to the Colts, who wanted us to pay Asante top money. BB doesn't listen to them; neither do I.
     
    RESPONSE: And BB gets no credit from you for that?

        5.) Grand larceny committed against the Pittsburgh Steelers with the signing of UFA, Mike Vrabel; Good signing obviously. I will give you Beisel and Brown in answer to that. RESPONSE: If you read my previous post above, you would see that I included the Beisel signing as one of BB's boners. But, the discussion here centers only on his good moves. The signing of Vrabel was a great one. You really don't want to match good move against bad. I've left out so many good ones, such as the acquisition of RBs Corey Dillon, Danny Woodhead, and Antwain Smith...DTsTed Washington, Keith Traylor, and Mike Wright, WRs Jabar Gaffney, and David Patten, not to mention getting WR David Givens with a 7th round pick...and the salvaging of Rodney Harrison from the free ageny scrap-heap.     The problem for you is Pat, that you can't discern the good from the filler. Dillon, Washington, Wright and Harrison were pretty good. The rest are filler or unproven. GMs all over the league find guys of this caliber. It's not a mark of genius as a GM.
     
    RESPONSE: Isn't it BB's job to build a team every year? Doesn't that require good "fillers", as you put it? I prefer to call iit good role players. Isn't that how championships are won?  

     6.) The trade made with the 49ers in 2007, which ended up netting the Patriots Randy Moss, and Jarod Mayo; Yup, good trader. Let's not forget the #1 we lost because of BB's boneheaded spygate scandal.   RESPONSE: Desperation. You're starting to sound like UD6. Spygate was a NY media driven, manufactured scandal...where that tool of a Commissioner, Roger "Jets" Goodell...caved to media pressure, and punished the Patriots in an unprecedented manner. No one could have forseen such a harsh punishment, for such a relatively minor infraction. TP, just stop with the homer BS. People outside of Pat's Nation don't see it that way. And they are right to an extent. Taping after the memo was just plain idiotic, if not cheating. The problem isn't me sounding like UD6, the problem is your denial.The FACT is with the judgement of an idiot, BB brought the worst cheating scandal in league history down on the good name of our beloved team. Spin it all you like, but that is the bottom line. To this day it sickens me he brought this stench on us we have to scramble to somehow justify. IDIOTIC!

    RESPONSE: Me, a homer? I criticize BB and the Patriots as much as anybody. For the great majority of the past decade, BB has put his team in a position to contend for a championship.Only the Steelers and Colts can make the same claim. While a memo on the subject should have been heeded, no one could have forseen the dearth consequences of disregarding it.  If you hate BB so much, please name for me someone else who is available, that can do a better job? For that matter, please name someone who has done a better job, over the past decade?    

     7.) The selection of OG Logan Mankins with the 32nd overall pick in 2005; Good pick, but where was he in the '07 SB? And he has turned out to be a jerk .   RESPONSE: Using this twisted logic, than Tom Brady sucks too...because he had a bad playoff game against the Jets. I don't think Mankins is a jerk. I do think that he followed some bad advise from his agent...and that Bob Kraft was unreasonable with him in demanding that Mankins apologize several different times, and in several different ways. I see Mankins and the Pats getting a long term deal done, fairly soon.  Sorry TP, Mankins is overrated and a jerk. Brady is neither of those.
     
    RESPONSE: Apparently, the NFL players disagree with you...as Mankins was ranked by them as the league's 39th best player. Only Jabari Evans was rated higher as a OG, at #36? When did you become such a hater, Babe?

    8.) The selection of CB Devin McCourty with 27th pick in 2010; Yup, good pick so far.   RESPONSE: But for Suh, McCourty was the defensive rookie of the year. One year isn't a guarantee, but the prospects look great.
     
    10.) Trading Drew Bledsoe in 2002 for Buffalo's #1 draft choice in 2003...which was used to select DE Ty Warren. Again, good trader, but I'm not going to agree Warren was a great pick at #13 overall based on his results.   RESPONSE: Warren has been a very solid player, until injuries caught up with him. Warren was a blah pick for going that high.
     
    RESPONSE: Being a top 3-4 DE is a "blah" pick? Look at the problems the Pats have had at DE without the "blah" Ty Warren, in 2010. Waren was a  pro-bowler in 2007.

    11.) Selection of USC backup QB Matt Cassel with a 7th round pick in 2007. Cassel would win 11 games for BB in 2008...and be traded for the 34th overall selection of the 2009 draft (Patrick Chung). Cassel benifited from a weak schedule and the jury is still way out on Chung.   RESPONSE: Oh...so Cassel suks? Didn't he just lead the Chiefs to the AFC West title? Sure, he has played well against weak schedules. Against a real schedule he has wilted. This year he won't be playing the NFC West. He will be coming our way. If he puts up numbers against this schedule I will agree he is good. But he won't. He will be right back to looking at a boot in his azz out of town like he was until last year's cushy schedule came along.
     
    RESPONSE: The guy led his team to a divisional title, despite a weak OL, and a mediocre defense. Look at all the teams who drafted a QB in the first round last April. That's how valuable QBs are in the NFL.

    Sorry, Babe...but it seems that BB's successes far outweigh his failures. Not really. Average GM. Average drafting. Below average FA signer. Good trader.   RESPONSE: You're being ridiculous. As I've easily demonstrated above, BB has had more than his fair share of success with the draft, and through free agency. If you wish to call the signings of Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Jabar Gaffney, Danny Woodhead, BJGE, Antwain Smith, David Patten, Christian Fauria, Junior Seau, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Larry Izzo, Bryan Cox, Joe Andruzzi, Steven Neal, Tully Banta Cain, Gary Guyton, Gerard Warren, Kyle Arrington, Rob Ninkovich, Mike Wright, and Eric Moore "below average"...so be it What is with you reeling off names of mostly filler players? All GMs find guys like this to fill a roster. Yeah, most of these guys are average or below. If you stop overrating people "because if BB picked them they must be good" you will have a much clearer picture of where we actually are.

    RESPONSE: Overrating people? LOL!!! Last time I checked, the Pats won 14 games last season. So, BB must be doing something right. Don't you agree?
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

      Then why weren't the Jets (2006 in Foxborough), or other teams Goodell knew of to be in violation (under his assumption of how the rule read), not dealt with pre-2007? Care to answer that one?


    The answer to your question is simple. Nobody turned the Jets in.


     How do we even know what the memo said?  Did it say "do not pan your camera to the other team's sideline"?  All we know is, the memo reiterated the current rule, which according to BB, he did not know he was violating.

    The memo expressly forbid taping defensive signals.
      
    “Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.” (from Reiss)


      Pretty simple. Why didn't Goodell pick up the phone and deal with each team that wasn';t following the rule the way he wanted?  Why send out a shotgun memo, especially one that reiterates a rule as convoluted as that one? It's like when you work for someone and they announce to a group a problem, but in reality, they are talking to one person, or a few people. Just address the issue directly with that one person or persons. Why would any team that wasn't following it correctly think they were doing something wrong if no team had been reprimanded before for it?  Answer these questions, Babe.

    It is reported that the memo was sent out specifically with the Pats in mind. What kind of fool gets a memo from the league saying stop doing this and completely ignores it and does exactly what it says not to do? Goodell was apparently sick of BB doing what he pleased such as screwing with the injury report.


     Finally, how is a media witch hunt, EIGHT MONTHS after a punishment, right into SB weekend, with lies and slander towars the Pats, not a witch hunt? What else would it be called?    The fact is, Goodell's ultra severe punishment led the media to believe he was covering for BB, when in reality, Goodell was covering for other teams in violation. He thought by coming down hard on BB, that would squash it. It didn't. You know why? Because Goodell had no idea how bad the media hated/hates BB. That's why. Goodell's fear was that many teams would have to be punished. It's why he destroyed BB"s tapes. It showed other teams in broad daylight in Foxborough on their sideline filming the game from an "illegal" spot.  It was mistake to punish NE that severely.

    No. Goodell had abruptly stated if it was true he would come down hard. Another fool in the scenario. Upon finding the facts he did realize BB had proof of others doing it and had to stonewall the whole thing for the sake of the league's integrity. Having already opened his big yap he was forced to exact severe punishment to keep the masses from uprising. Goodell is a tool.



       Funny how the media didn't think it was enough. Remember that? Yup. The media hates Belichick because they think BB owes them.  Yup.  BB, the most successful coach of the modern era, never gave anyone the time of day unless his name was Michael Holley, Halberstam or maybe Paul Perillo or Tom Curran. Every single thing BB told Goodell checked out. Every single thing.  And in February 2008, it wasn't good enough. The media wanted it to be about them.

    BB is clearly a control freak. That is why he promotes inexperienced guys well before they are ready to his staff. And that is why he doesn't hire experienced guys from the football ranks. They might question his genius on occasion. The yes men he promotes don't. And he has rankled at the league dictating to him right along. He is inept at handling the media and has surely created enemies.

    After Goodell spoke too soon the powers that be decided to do damage control lest their brand be sullied. It was determined the Pats would be punished severely to damage control Goodell's abrupt and foolish words but stonewall it so knowledge of the widespread use of such tactics stayed under wraps. The entire scenario fits this analysis. The media just ran with a good story and did absolutely nothing to investigate other possibilities. They remain worthless.


     You feeling guilty and then getting angry at BB shows you don;t really know the facts. I agree with Hardright and have said this many times: I have no issue with a fine and the docking of a draft pick, but the way it was handled was pathetic by Goodell. The tape was duped and sold or stolen from his office, he let the JEts dictate the processs and  he let the media shape the outcome.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing

    I have no guilt. I didn't defy any memo. What shoud have happened is BB be punished for blatantly ignoring the league and the team not punished. What should have happened is that steps be taken to investigate the extent of these practices league wide.

    But that didn't happen because the mix here is an arrogant control freak who rankles at being told what to do, an idiot commissioner and owners that want to make money.




     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    Wrong. It prohibits them from those locations. Not from filming.  There is no way you can guarantee a hand signal from a coach will never be shot within a frame during a 3 hour game. No way. A tackle on the sideline and the camera there, and then the hand signals come. Even by accident it's going to happen. This is assumed, hence why it's legal and no one cared.


    King, the memo said don't tape from the sideline. BB continuyed to tape from the sideline. This isn't rocket science. He was an idiot to put our team in harm's way.



     You are also wrong in saying only NE got a memo. That's false.  How do we even know hat the memo said/why it was being sent out?

    I didn't say only NE got the memo. I said it was reported that NE was the reason the memo was sent out.


       Did it say "Stop filming."? Goodell also said many teams were not within procedure. If the Jets weren't addressed when NFL PERSONNEL SHUT THEM DOWN IN FOXBOROUGH IN 2006, WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK IT WAS WRONG?

    It said stop filming signals from specific places or any other place that could be accessed during a game.

    The Jets weren't addressed because they weren't turned in. It was Pat's personnel that shut them down, not the NFL. They were taping from the end zone anyway, a place not specified in the memo.


    "The Jets were caught videotaping at Gillette Stadium last season and the Patriots had that New York employee removed from the area," - ESPN


     You keep incorrectly stating what happened.  If the NFL knew it's own rules, mauybe the Jets would have been reported to be in violation in 2006. Get it? No one cared, Babe. No one cared about this UNLESS it was a team like the Pats. That's what happened. It was the Pats.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    See above.

    I have no doubt BB has made enimies in various places and when push comes to shove they won't lift a finger to aid him.
     
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