Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Not true. Only NFL personnel can facilitate a discrepancy during a game between two teams. NFL personnel shut down the Jets camera, which was apparently in some sort of violation that day in January of 2006. Same reason why the NFL contorls headsets, not the home team.  That is another flat out lie and rumor tied to the Pats.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Find me something to verify the NFL had them removed. I just showed you a paste from ESPN that the Pats had them removed.

    You just can't make things up to fit your spin King.

    And then explain how taping from the end zone was a direct violation of the memo I pasted from Reiss.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]BUT NOW...HIS BEST:  1.) Selecting DE Richard Seymour over WR David Terrell, and others, as the media and fans wanted; Fans and media always like the flashy WR or RB. You win with great QB and defense in this league these days. Seymour played great through his rookie contract, but became a fraction of his former self once he got his money through the holdout. It was a great pick in the sense that it supercharged the D-line in the dynasty years. Overall it was merely a good pick, not great.   RESPONSE: Please stop. Seymour is at least a border line Hall of Famer. C'mon TP, try to be objective. Really. The guy didn't make all-pro ever again once he got his fat contract. He finally made the pro-bowl again last year with the Raiders, in of course, the contract year after his score off the Pats with the holdout. He didn't make the pro-bowl for the better part of that fat contract. He was taken 6th overall. I said it was a good pick, I'm not going to call it great based on his mercenary ways and tendency to kick back when he gets the money. 2.) His decision to play Tom Brady over Drew Bledsoe; No brainer. Brady was winning, Bledsoe was 5-11 the year before. Brady earned his spot on the team, earned the start when Bledsoe was hurt and earned keeping the job by winning.   RESPONSE: As I recall it, many people thought that Bledsoe should get his job back when he regained his health. Many more thought that the Pats had a better chance of beating the Rams in the SB with Bledsoe starting, rather than Brady...who was playing on a somewhat gimpy ankle. Lots of people thought Drew was good. Lots of people thought Grogan was good. They weren't. If you were going to win a SB it was despite them, not because of them. I certainly wan't wanting Drew back. BB knew what he was going to do with Bledsoe. He saw it the year before. No brainer for BB despite what other clueless persons thought. 3.) The decision to trade his 19th overall pick in the 2003 draft...and then using the picks obtained to select DB Eugene Wilson, and NT Vince Wilfolk; Wilfork was a good pick, and overall BB has been a good trader.   RESPONSE: Agreed.  4.) His decision to release Lawyer Milloy in 2003 was correct...and established himself as the undisputed leader of the franchise; Milloy was a money issue whose play was deteriorating.   RESPONSE: True...but don't you remember all the heat BB took from his players and the media for this move...especially after Milloy went to Buffalo, and the Bills crushed the Pats, 31-0, in game one? Don't you agree that his decision to cut Milloy, and how BB handled it, entrenched his position as the man in charge of the Patriots? I remember well the rantings of fools who don't know their azz from their elbow. The same ones who demanded we draft Dez Bryant, that cried when Vinatieri went to the Colts, who wanted us to pay Asante top money. BB doesn't listen to them; neither do I.     5.) Grand larceny committed against the Pittsburgh Steelers with the signing of UFA, Mike Vrabel; Good signing obviously. I will give you Beisel and Brown in answer to that. RESPONSE: If you read my previous post above, you would see that I included the Beisel signing as one of BB's boners. But, the discussion here centers only on his good moves. The signing of Vrabel was a great one. You really don't want to match good move against bad. I've left out so many good ones, such as the acquisition of RBs Corey Dillon, Danny Woodhead, and Antwain Smith...DTsTed Washington, Keith Traylor, and Mike Wright, WRs Jabar Gaffney, and David Patten, not to mention getting WR David Givens with a 7th round pick...and the salvaging of Rodney Harrison from the free ageny scrap-heap.     The problem for you is Pat, that you can't discern the good from the filler. Dillon, Washington, Wright and Harrison were pretty good. The rest are filler or unproven. GMs all over the league find guys of this caliber. It's not a mark of genius as a GM.  6.) The trade made with the 49ers in 2007, which ended up netting the Patriots Randy Moss, and Jarod Mayo; Yup, good trader. Let's not forget the #1 we lost because of BB's boneheaded spygate scandal.   RESPONSE: Desperation. You're starting to sound like UD6. Spygate was a NY media driven, manufactured scandal...where that tool of a Commissioner, Roger "Jets" Goodell...caved to media pressure, and punished the Patriots in an unprecedented manner. No one could have forseen such a harsh punishment, for such a relatively minor infraction. TP, just stop with the homer BS. People outside of Pat's Nation don't see it that way. And they are right to an extent. Taping after the memo was just plain idiotic, if not cheating. The problem isn't me sounding like UD6, the problem is your denial.The FACT is with the judgement of an idiot, BB brought the worst cheating scandal in league history down on the good name of our beloved team. Spin it all you like, but that is the bottom line. To this day it sickens me he brought this stench on us we have to scramble to somehow justify. IDIOTIC!  7.) The selection of OG Logan Mankins with the 32nd overall pick in 2005; Good pick, but where was he in the '07 SB? And he has turned out to be a jerk .   RESPONSE: Using this twisted logic, than Tom Brady sucks too...because he had a bad playoff game against the Jets. I don't think Mankins is a jerk. I do think that he followed some bad advise from his agent...and that Bob Kraft was unreasonable with him in demanding that Mankins apologize several different times, and in several different ways. I see Mankins and the Pats getting a long term deal done, fairly soon.  Sorry TP, Mankins is overrated and a jerk. Brady is neither of those. 8.) Trading a 2nd and 7th round pick in 2007 to Miami to bring aboard RFA, Wes Welker; Yup, good trader.   RESPONSE: Agreed.  9.) Selection of CB Devin McCourty with 27th pick in 2010; Yup, good pick so far.   RESPONSE: But for Suh, McCourty was the defensive rookie of the year. One year isn't a guarantee, but the prospects look great.   10.) Trading Drew Bledsoe in 2002 for Buffalo's #1 draft choice in 2003...which was used to select DE Ty Warren. Again, good trader, but I'm not going to agree Warren was a great pick at #13 overall based on his results.   RESPONSE: Warren has been a very solid player, until injuries caught up with him. Warren was a blah pick for going that high. 11.) Selection of USC backup QB Matt Cassel with a 7th round pick in 2007. Cassel would win 11 games for BB in 2008...and be traded for the 34th overall selection of the 2009 draft (Patrick Chung). Cassel benifited from a weak schedule and the jury is still way out on Chung.   RESPONSE: Oh...so Cassel suks? Didn't he just lead the Chiefs to the AFC West title? Sure, he has played well against weak schedules. Against a real schedule he has wilted. This year he won't be playing the NFC West. He will be coming our way. If he puts up numbers against this schedule I will agree he is good. But he won't. He will be right back to looking at a boot in his azz out of town like he was until last year's cushy schedule came along. Sorry, Babe...but it seems that BB's successes far outweigh his failures. Not really. Average GM. Average drafting. Below average FA signer. Good trader.   RESPONSE: You're being ridiculous. As I've easily demonstrated above, BB has had more than his fair share of success with the draft, and through free agency. If you wish to call the signings of Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Jabar Gaffney, Danny Woodhead, BJGE, Antwain Smith, David Patten, Christian Fauria, Junior Seau, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Larry Izzo, Bryan Cox, Joe Andruzzi, Steven Neal, Tully Banta Cain, Gary Guyton, Gerard Warren, Kyle Arrington, Rob Ninkovich, Mike Wright, and Eric Moore "below average"...so be it What is with you reeling off names of mostly filler players? All GMs find guys like this to fill a roster. Yeah, most of these guys are average or below. If you stop overrating people "because if BB picked them they must be good" you will have a much clearer picture of where we actually are.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Richard Seymour was the premier defensive tackle of his generation. there is no upgrade to Richard Seymour.  It wasn't his fault he was drafted by a 3/4 team but the fact you label him and Ty Warren average only proves you have no clue what the difference is between a 3/4 defensive lineman and a 4/3 lineman.

    Seymour demanded (and still does in spurts) a double or triple team approach, he is king f-ing kong.  His assignment calls for him to hold his position and collapse the pocket when it has become an obvious passing situation, had he played a 4/3 his whole career he would have some Albert Haynesworth type numbers. This is why Albert Hayneworth didnt want to play the 3/4, his value is determined by his simply wreaking havoc.  The Seymour, Wilfork, Warren line was the best we've ever had...

    Tebucky Jones; 6'2", 220 pounds was never a corner...  His biggest issue was trying to stay healthy, he had one full season where he played every game, he had 100+ tackles, but he couldn't stay on the field after that; he was a vicious hitter who caused quite a few fumbles.  Maybe some over estimations were made about him coming out of college but he was always a strong safety.  Ras unless he has knee injuries will remain a corner, he is more athletic than Tebucky ever was...
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

         Here's an interesting article that compares Seymour's contributions in Oakland to those of former Raider, Warren Sapp: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/712049-oakland-raiders-take-your-pick-richard-seymour-or-warren-sapp
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Richard Seymour was the premier defensive tackle of his generation. there is no upgrade to Richard Seymour.  It wasn't his fault he was drafted by a 3/4 team but the fact you label him and Ty Warren average only proves you have no clue what the difference is between a 3/4 defensive lineman and a 4/3 lineman. Seymour demanded (and still does in spurts) a double or triple team approach, he is king f-ing kong.  His assignment calls for him to hold his position and collapse the pocket when it has become an obvious passing situation, had he played a 4/3 his whole career he would have some Albert Haynesworth type numbers. This is why Albert Hayneworth didnt want to play the 3/4, his value is determined by his simply wreaking havoc.  The Seymour, Wilfork, Warren line was the best we've ever had... Tebucky Jones; 6'2", 220 pounds was never a corner...  His biggest issue was trying to stay healthy, he had one full season where he played every game, he had 100+ tackles, but he couldn't stay on the field after that; he was a vicious hitter who caused quite a few fumbles.  Maybe some over estimations were made about him coming out of college but he was always a strong safety.  Ras unless he has knee injuries will remain a corner, he is more athletic than Tebucky ever was...
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]




    What the hell are you talking about? Are you even addressing me?

    I never said either was average. Seymour was great through his rookie contract, but tapered off to good after he got his money. Warren was above average but not a great pick for a #13 overall.

    I'll stick with that assessment.

    And I have not the slightest inkling why you even mention Jones.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Because the NFL handles disputes between teams during games.  This is a fact.  When they say "NE" had them removed", that means they requested that NFL personnel do it. Do you think Mike Tannnenbaum tackled the NE camera intern at the Meadowlands in 2007? lmao It's a violation because there wasn't a "roof overhead".   Amazing what happens when you do your homework, first, isn't it? The fact is, each stadium has perches with camer stanchions where you don't move the camera from that location. Anything else can be perceived, apparently, as a violation.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]



    You do your homework wonderboy.


    Accusations against the Jets

    Accusations of Jets also illegally videotaping the Patriots in their January 2007 playoff match-up arose following the incident. Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum called the accusations "completely false" in September 2007. In the week before the teams' December 16, 2007 game, the New York Daily News reported the Jets were found videotaping from the mezzanine level of Gillette Stadium and asked to leave by Patriots security. The Jets later claimed they had been granted permission by the Patriots to film in the game, while Belichick denied permission was ever given." (Wikipedia referenceing an article by Tomase)

     

    Apparently the whole f'n world knows the Pats didn't report that incident to the league but you.

    Has anybody told you at least half the time you are intolerably anal? The rest of the time you're okay.


     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    They had a good draft and Cannon may play this year which would give them 2 high level rookies...
    http://www.60maxpowero.com/patriots/content/60-max-draftermath
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections


    BUT NOW...HIS BEST:  1.) Selecting DE Richard Seymour over WR David Terrell, and others, as the media and fans wanted; Fans and media always like the flashy WR or RB. You win with great QB and defense in this league these days. Seymour played great through his rookie contract, but became a fraction of his former self once he got his money through the holdout. It was a great pick in the sense that it supercharged the D-line in the dynasty years. Overall it was merely a good pick, not great.   RESPONSE: Please stop. Seymour is at least a border line Hall of Famer. C'mon TP, try to be objective. Really. The guy didn't make all-pro ever again once he got his fat contract. He finally made the pro-bowl again last year with the Raiders, in of course, the contract year after his score off the Pats with the holdout. He didn't make the pro-bowl for the better part of that fat contract. He was taken 6th overall. I said it was a good pick, I'm not going to call it great based on his mercenary ways and tendency to kick back when he gets the money.
     
    RESPONSE: Oh please! Seymour was the centerpiece around which the Pats' defense, which won 3 SB in 4 years, was built. But for some shady officiating In Indy, and a miraculous catch by David Tyree, it would have been a defense that won five championships in 7 years. Is he a Hall of Famer? Moat likely: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/11/raiders-dt-richard-seymour-future-hall-of-famer/1 

    I haven't said he wasn't great during his rookie contract. And I haven't said he wasn't good beyond that. I just said for being taken #6 he was a good pick not a great pick. You're supposed to get good guys in the top 10. I don't really get what your beef is with calling this a good pick.


    2.) His decision to play Tom Brady over Drew Bledsoe; No brainer. Brady was winning, Bledsoe was 5-11 the year before. Brady earned his spot on the team, earned the start when Bledsoe was hurt and earned keeping the job by winning.   RESPONSE: As I recall it, many people thought that Bledsoe should get his job back when he regained his health. Many more thought that the Pats had a better chance of beating the Rams in the SB with Bledsoe starting, rather than Brady...who was playing on a somewhat gimpy ankle. Lots of people thought Drew was good. Lots of people thought Grogan was good. They weren't.
     
    RESPONSE: Absurd! Both Grogan and Bledsoe were good NFL Qs...though neither of them were  as good as Tom Brady. When BB went with Brady over Bledsoe, Brady as an unknown quantity. Bledsoe was a three time pro-bowl QB, with playoff and SB experience...when BB made his choice. Bledsoe made his 4th pro-bowl with Buffalo in 2002. grogan had some great years with the Pats in 1973-1976. But for the not so divine intervention of Ben Dreith, he would have led the Patriots to their first world championship.

    Be sober about this. We all know both Drew and Grogan were classic throw a pick at the worst time kind of guys.

    Brady was winning. Bledsoe is a 98-95 lifetime QB. No brainer; stick with the guy who is winning if you want to keep your job.



    If you were going to win a SB it was despite them, not because of them. I certainly wan't wanting Drew back. BB knew what he was going to do with Bledsoe. He saw it the year before. No brainer for BB despite what other clueless persons thought.

    RESPONSE: More absurdities! If Bledsoe was so bad, why did the Buffalo Bills trade a first round pick for him? Why did he make the pro-bowl in Buffalo? The Pats were one of the best teams in the AFC in the mid 70s with Grogan at the helm. 

    Why? Because Buffalo is stupid. Bledsoe made the pro-bowl in '94 with 27 INTs. Pffft. Over 3 years with the Bills he had a 55/43 TD/INT ratio.

    Has it occurred to you that Brady was showing in practice that he was just the better player?

    I will grant you Grogan was a good QB when he could run. But that wasn't for long.


    I guess your idea of a good QB and mine are different.


    3.) The decision to trade his 19th overall pick in the 2003 draft...and then using the picks obtained to select DB Eugene Wilson, and NT Vince Wilfolk; Wilfork was a good pick, and overall BB has been a good trader.   RESPONSE: Agreed.
     
    4.) His decision to release Lawyer Milloy in 2003 was correct...and established himself as the undisputed leader of the franchise; Milloy was a money issue whose play was deteriorating.   RESPONSE: True...but don't you remember all the heat BB took from his players and the media for this move...especially after Milloy went to Buffalo, and the Bills crushed the Pats, 31-0, in game one? Don't you agree that his decision to cut Milloy, and how BB handled it, entrenched his position as the man in charge of the Patriots? I remember well the rantings of fools who don't know their azz from their elbow. The same ones who demanded we draft Dez Bryant, that cried when Vinatieri went to the Colts, who wanted us to pay Asante top money. BB doesn't listen to them; neither do I.
     
    RESPONSE: And BB gets no credit from you for that?

    I consistently give him credit for good decisions. I'm just saying it was an obvious decision to make. It doesn't make him a genius.

        5.) Grand larceny committed against the Pittsburgh Steelers with the signing of UFA, Mike Vrabel; Good signing obviously. I will give you Beisel and Brown in answer to that. RESPONSE: If you read my previous post above, you would see that I included the Beisel signing as one of BB's boners. But, the discussion here centers only on his good moves. The signing of Vrabel was a great one. You really don't want to match good move against bad. I've left out so many good ones, such as the acquisition of RBs Corey Dillon, Danny Woodhead, and Antwain Smith...DTsTed Washington, Keith Traylor, and Mike Wright, WRs Jabar Gaffney, and David Patten, not to mention getting WR David Givens with a 7th round pick...and the salvaging of Rodney Harrison from the free ageny scrap-heap.     The problem for you is Pat, that you can't discern the good from the filler. Dillon, Washington, Wright and Harrison were pretty good. The rest are filler or unproven. GMs all over the league find guys of this caliber. It's not a mark of genius as a GM.
     
    RESPONSE: Isn't it BB's job to build a team every year? Doesn't that require good "fillers", as you put it? I prefer to call iit good role players. Isn't that how championships are won?

    Championships are won by a great QB and a strong D for the most part. All teams have filler.
     


     6.) The trade made with the 49ers in 2007, which ended up netting the Patriots Randy Moss, and Jarod Mayo; Yup, good trader. Let's not forget the #1 we lost because of BB's boneheaded spygate scandal.   RESPONSE: Desperation. You're starting to sound like UD6. Spygate was a NY media driven, manufactured scandal...where that tool of a Commissioner, Roger "Jets" Goodell...caved to media pressure, and punished the Patriots in an unprecedented manner. No one could have forseen such a harsh punishment, for such a relatively minor infraction. TP, just stop with the homer BS. People outside of Pat's Nation don't see it that way. And they are right to an extent. Taping after the memo was just plain idiotic, if not cheating. The problem isn't me sounding like UD6, the problem is your denial.The FACT is with the judgement of an idiot, BB brought the worst cheating scandal in league history down on the good name of our beloved team. Spin it all you like, but that is the bottom line. To this day it sickens me he brought this stench on us we have to scramble to somehow justify. IDIOTIC!

    RESPONSE: Me, a homer? I criticize BB and the Patriots as much as anybody. For the great majority of the past decade, BB has put his team in a position to contend for a championship.Only the Steelers and Colts can make the same claim. While a memo on the subject should have been heeded, no one could have forseen the dearth consequences of disregarding it.  If you hate BB so much, please name for me someone else who is available, that can do a better job? For that matter, please name someone who has done a better job, over the past decade?   

    I don't see much scrutiny from you regarding BB.

    Brady has put this team in a position to contend, not BB.

    I have never said I hate BB. I rather like him.

    Anybody who would be a better than average GM would be better than BB.

    Why the past decade? Why not who has been better over the last 6 years? In that case 4-5 names can be brought to bear.


     7.) The selection of OG Logan Mankins with the 32nd overall pick in 2005; Good pick, but where was he in the '07 SB? And he has turned out to be a jerk .   RESPONSE: Using this twisted logic, than Tom Brady sucks too...because he had a bad playoff game against the Jets. I don't think Mankins is a jerk. I do think that he followed some bad advise from his agent...and that Bob Kraft was unreasonable with him in demanding that Mankins apologize several different times, and in several different ways. I see Mankins and the Pats getting a long term deal done, fairly soon.  Sorry TP, Mankins is overrated and a jerk. Brady is neither of those.
     
    RESPONSE: Apparently, the NFL players disagree with you...as Mankins was ranked by them as the league's 39th best player. Only Jabari Evans was rated higher as a OG, at #36? When did you become such a hater, Babe?

    I never said Mankins wasn't a great player. I just said he's not as great as people claim. Apparently your hero BB agrees, as he has not opened up the treasure chest for him and was willing to play without him completely rather than give him the top money he wants.

    Do you call everybody who disagrees with you a hater? That is a rather cheap shot tactic TP. Rise above it.



    8.) The selection of CB Devin McCourty with 27th pick in 2010; Yup, good pick so far.   RESPONSE: But for Suh, McCourty was the defensive rookie of the year. One year isn't a guarantee, but the prospects look great.
     
    10.) Trading Drew Bledsoe in 2002 for Buffalo's #1 draft choice in 2003...which was used to select DE Ty Warren. Again, good trader, but I'm not going to agree Warren was a great pick at #13 overall based on his results.   RESPONSE: Warren has been a very solid player, until injuries caught up with him. Warren was a blah pick for going that high.
     
    RESPONSE: Being a top 3-4 DE is a "blah" pick? Look at the problems the Pats have had at DE without the "blah" Ty Warren, in 2010. Waren was a  pro-bowler in 2007.


    According to PFR Warren has never made a pro-bowl. What, did 4 guys bow out for injuries?

    I find it hard to believe a "top" DE has NEVER made a pro-bowl.

    Warren remains a blah pick for going #13 overall.


    11.) Selection of USC backup QB Matt Cassel with a 7th round pick in 2007. Cassel would win 11 games for BB in 2008...and be traded for the 34th overall selection of the 2009 draft (Patrick Chung). Cassel benifited from a weak schedule and the jury is still way out on Chung.   RESPONSE: Oh...so Cassel suks? Didn't he just lead the Chiefs to the AFC West title? Sure, he has played well against weak schedules. Against a real schedule he has wilted. This year he won't be playing the NFC West. He will be coming our way. If he puts up numbers against this schedule I will agree he is good. But he won't. He will be right back to looking at a boot in his azz out of town like he was until last year's cushy schedule came along.
     
    RESPONSE: The guy led his team to a divisional title, despite a weak OL, and a mediocre defense. Look at all the teams who drafted a QB in the first round last April. That's how valuable QBs are in the NFL.

    He has beaten very few teams with a winning record in his career. Give up with the spin and stick to the facts.


    Sorry, Babe...but it seems that BB's successes far outweigh his failures. Not really. Average GM. Average drafting. Below average FA signer. Good trader.   RESPONSE: You're being ridiculous. As I've easily demonstrated above, BB has had more than his fair share of success with the draft, and through free agency. If you wish to call the signings of Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Jabar Gaffney, Danny Woodhead, BJGE, Antwain Smith, David Patten, Christian Fauria, Junior Seau, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Larry Izzo, Bryan Cox, Joe Andruzzi, Steven Neal, Tully Banta Cain, Gary Guyton, Gerard Warren, Kyle Arrington, Rob Ninkovich, Mike Wright, and Eric Moore "below average"...so be it What is with you reeling off names of mostly filler players? All GMs find guys like this to fill a roster. Yeah, most of these guys are average or below. If you stop overrating people "because if BB picked them they must be good" you will have a much clearer picture of where we actually are.

    RESPONSE: Overrating people? LOL!!! Last time I checked, the Pats won 14 games last season. So, BB must be doing something right. Don't you agree?
    Posted by BabeParilli

    Yeah, you constantly overrate people probably because of your Hoodie worship.

    Oh yes. He is doing something right. But he isn't doing enough right or he would have more to show for it than a playoff miss and two one and outs for the last 3 years.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : That's correct. Pats security asked. Asked. They didn't do the removing.    They don't get involved in actually seeing that through. NFL officials are at every NFL game monitoring headsets and the video scouting procedures.  It wasn't reported because NFL officials never cared about reporting this stuff before.  Get it?  Why was any cameraman allowed to film from a sideline for so long, standing right next to NFL officials on the sidelines?   None of these details within the rule mattered until the Jets and Pats started playing games with one another and the Jets used the 2007 game was a way to attack NE publicly. Not a hard thing to see here. Please learn the difference between basic English words and what they mean in certain sentences. Thanks, gramps.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    King, give it up. You have been thrashed to within an inch of your life on this point. Salvage some dignity here and just admit the jets were not turned in to the league.

    I'm embarassed for you that you would squirm so pathetically to try to save face.

    Just own up to your error and move on. I won't rub it in.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections


    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : What the hell are you talking about? Are you even addressing me? 
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Ahem, who is "anal"?

    The fact remains, the Jets weren't in compliance in filming in NE and only NFL personnel can authorize action if supposed violations are in place.

    Otherwise, you'd have teams sabotaging these procedures every week in the league.


    King, are you losing it or something? You are replying with this which is to a reply I made about Seymour; not the jets taping.

     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]No.  I know what you were replaying to, I was pointing out you being anal with Wozzy's response and reinforcing you being incorrect with which personnel handles "incidents" during NFL games.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


    He stated that I called Seymour and Warren as average. I corrected him because I had not said anything of the kind.

    If you think correcting somebody who is dead wrong is being anal, knock yourself out with that bro.

    And there is nothing anal about correcting you when you say the league threw the jets out and then providing proof it was Pat's personnel that told them to scram.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Let's end this once and for all, grampa. Where does BB rank as a GM, overall, in the NFL? Apparently, BB needs to be #1 in every facet of the GM role for you to be happy or acknolwedge he's one of the best. FACT; Over the last 10 years, across the board, BB is one of the elite GMs.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    This is hard to say wonderboy. Measuring the impact of the greatest QB of all-time on BB's results is hard to determine exactly.

    If you take away Brady his record would be much like his Cleveland days. As a matter of fact, without Brady his record is 51 - 62 for his career. (and that's with the 11-5 weak schedule year of Cassel thrown in)

    Strictly as a GM he ranks somewhere in the 12-20 range.







     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]Sounds great, diaperboy. Yes, BB is "somewhere in the 12-20" range for GMs.   My god.  Seek the help you need and get it done today.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


    Try not to confuse the impact of the HOF QB with what BB is as a GM.

    BB is an NFL failure if his record without Brady is considered. That is the fact.


    The SB wins he did have were with a number of key players he did not acquire. That is the fact.

    All you have is spin.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections


    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : King, give it up. You have been thrashed to within an inch of your life on this point. Salvage some dignity here and just admit the jets were not turned in to the league. I'm embarassed for you that you would squirm so pathetically to try to save face. Just own up to your error and move on. I won't rub it in.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    Of course they weren't. I didn't say they were. 

    You said, Only NFL personnel can facilitate a discrepancy during a game between two teams.
    NFL personnel shut down the Jets camera, which was apparently in some sort of violation that day in January of 2006.

    In fact, the NFL has never, ever dealt with scouting violations in this history of the league before. It's always been dealt with "in house" if there was an issue.

    It doesn't matter if it's crowd noise violations like in Minny, Washington or the RCA dome or other forms of in-game violations.

    If you do hear about it, it's well after anything even happened.  

    Your bent on telling everyone Pats "security" physically removed a Jets employee, which isn't true, technically.  NFL personnel are the only ones who are authorized to facilitate in-game issues.

    What do you need? I've shown you two sources that do not say NFL officials shut them down. One of the sources specifically states the Pats shut them down.

    But you still insist NFL officials did it. This is wild eyed spin even for you wonderboy.

     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Try not to confuse the impact of the HOF QB with what BB is as a GM. BB is an NFL failure if his record without Brady is considered. That is the fact. The SB wins he did have were with a number of key players he did not acquire. That is the fact. All you have is spin.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Really? Really? So let's see... using this truly deep insight into judging the quality of a coach:
    1. Vince Lombardi never won a championship without Bart Starr so there goes that over rated chump
    2. Walsh never won a championship without Joe Montana so there goes that over rated chump
    3. Don Shula never won a championship without Bob Greise so....
    4. Chuck Knoll never won a championship without Bradshaw... so ... yet another over rated chump...

    Maybe there really are only a couple of great coaches over the last 80 years.. Gibbs won it with 3 different QBs....

    The next time you have some insight make sure your glasses are on.
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]BUT NOW...HIS BEST:  1.) Selecting DE Richard Seymour over WR David Terrell, and others, as the media and fans wanted; Fans and media always like the flashy WR or RB. You win with great QB and defense in this league these days. Seymour played great through his rookie contract, but became a fraction of his former self once he got his money through the holdout. It was a great pick in the sense that it supercharged the D-line in the dynasty years. Overall it was merely a good pick, not great. RESPONSE: Please stop. Seymour is at least a border line Hall of Famer. C'mon TP, try to be objective. Really. The guy didn't make all-pro ever again once he got his fat contract. He finally made the pro-bowl again last year with the Raiders, in of course, the contract year after his score off the Pats with the holdout. He didn't make the pro-bowl for the better part of that fat contract. He was taken 6th overall. I said it was a good pick, I'm not going to call it great based on his mercenary ways and tendency to kick back when he gets the money.   RESPONSE: Oh please! Seymour was the centerpiece around which the Pats' defense, which won 3 SB in 4 years, was built. But for some shady officiating In Indy, and a miraculous catch by David Tyree, it would have been a defense that won five championships in 7 years. Is he a Hall of Famer? Moat likely: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/11/raiders-dt-richard-seymour-future-hall-of-famer/1   I haven't said he wasn't great during his rookie contract. And I haven't said he wasn't good beyond that. I just said for being taken #6 he was a good pick not a great pick. You're supposed to get good guys in the top 10. I don't really get what your beef is with calling this a good pick.
     
    RESPONSE: Richard Seymour, the 6th overall player selected in the 2001 draft, was the best player to come out of his draft class. Take a look for yourself at the players selected that year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NFL_Draft
    The only other player that was arguably better was 4th overall pick, LaDainian Tomlinson. When you select the best player available in the entire draft, that's a great job...not a good one. Seymour is a six (six) time pro-bowler, in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2010 (his first season with Uncle Al), and was selected to the NFL's All Decade team: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Seymour.  


    2.) His decision to play Tom Brady over Drew Bledsoe; No brainer. Brady was winning, Bledsoe was 5-11 the year before. Brady earned his spot on the team, earned the start when Bledsoe was hurt and earned keeping the job by winning.   RESPONSE: As I recall it, many people thought that Bledsoe should get his job back when he regained his health. Many more thought that the Pats had a better chance of beating the Rams in the SB with Bledsoe starting, rather than Brady...who was playing on a somewhat gimpy ankle. Lots of people thought Drew was good. Lots of people thought Grogan was good. They weren't.   RESPONSE: Absurd! Both Grogan and Bledsoe were good NFL Qs...though neither of them were  as good as Tom Brady. When BB went with Brady over Bledsoe, Brady as an unknown quantity. Bledsoe was a three time pro-bowl QB, with playoff and SB experience...when BB made his choice. Bledsoe made his 4th pro-bowl with Buffalo in 2002. grogan had some great years with the Pats in 1973-1976. But for the not so divine intervention of Ben Dreith, he would have led the Patriots to their first world championship. Be sober about this. We all know both Drew and Grogan were classic throw a pick at the worst time kind of guys. Brady was winning. Bledsoe is a 98-95 lifetime QB. No brainer; stick with the guy who is winning if you want to keep your job. If you were going to win a SB it was despite them, not because of them. I certainly wan't wanting Drew back. BB knew what he was going to do with Bledsoe. He saw it the year before. No brainer for BB despite what other clueless persons thought. RESPONSE: More absurdities! If Bledsoe was so bad, why did the Buffalo Bills trade a first round pick for him? Why did he make the pro-bowl in Buffalo? The Pats were one of the best teams in the AFC in the mid 70s with Grogan at the helm.   Why? Because Buffalo is stupid. Bledsoe made the pro-bowl in '94 with 27 INTs. Pffft. Over 3 years with the Bills he had a 55/43 TD/INT ratio. Has it occurred to you that Brady was showing in practice that he was just the better player?
     
    RESPONSE: It didn't "occur to me"...that's what BB said...and that's the main reason for his decision. But...how is that a "no-brainer"?? Just because BB saw Brady's talents, doesn't mean that every other NFL coach would have. How many coaches would have had the grape-fruits to keep seated their highly paid, pro-bowl QB, in favor of an unknown quantity? Certainly, BB put his neck on the line when he made this decision...just as he did in Cleveland, when he chose to release favorite son, Bernie Kosar. The decision to go with Brady, at the time it was made, was far from a "no-brainer". Few coaches have courageouly made such decisions.

    I will grant you Grogan was a good QB when he could run. But that wasn't for long. I guess your idea of a good QB and mine are different.
     
    RESPONSE: Grogan was reaching elite status as a QB, until he was slowed by injuries. Certainly, Grogan was better than Tony Eason...or any other QB to wear a Pats uniform, prior to the coming of Drew Bledsoe. 

    3.) The decision to trade his 19th overall pick in the 2003 draft...and then using the picks obtained to select DB Eugene Wilson, and NT Vince Wilfolk; Wilfork was a good pick, and overall BB has been a good trader.   RESPONSE: Agreed.   4.) His decision to release Lawyer Milloy in 2003 was correct...and established himself as the undisputed leader of the franchise; Milloy was a money issue whose play was deteriorating.   RESPONSE: True...but don't you remember all the heat BB took from his players and the media for this move...especially after Milloy went to Buffalo, and the Bills crushed the Pats, 31-0, in game one? Don't you agree that his decision to cut Milloy, and how BB handled it, entrenched his position as the man in charge of the Patriots? I remember well the rantings of fools who don't know their azz from their elbow. The same ones who demanded we draft Dez Bryant, that cried when Vinatieri went to the Colts, who wanted us to pay Asante top money. BB doesn't listen to them; neither do I.   RESPONSE: And BB gets no credit from you for that? I consistently give him credit for good decisions. I'm just saying it was an obvious decision to make. It doesn't make him a genius.
     
    RESPONSE: There you go again! In hindsight, the decision to sit Bledsoe for Brady was a no-brainer...just as his decision to release The Lawyer, in hindsight, was a no brainer. BUT...at the time these decisions were made, they were far from "no-brainers". No one knew what Tom Brady would become...and, especially in the aftermath of that 31-0 pasting in Buffalo, BB was on the hot-seat over Milloy. The great majority of the "experts" were wailing about how BB lost his team by letting The Lawyer go...and about how cheap the Pats were...remember?   

        5.) Grand larceny committed against the Pittsburgh Steelers with the signing of UFA, Mike Vrabel; Good signing obviously. I will give you Beisel and Brown in answer to that. RESPONSE: If you read my previous post above, you would see that I included the Beisel signing as one of BB's boners. But, the discussion here centers only on his good moves. The signing of Vrabel was a great one. You really don't want to match good move against bad. I've left out so many good ones, such as the acquisition of RBs Corey Dillon, Danny Woodhead, and Antwain Smith...DTsTed Washington, Keith Traylor, and Mike Wright, WRs Jabar Gaffney, and David Patten, not to mention getting WR David Givens with a 7th round pick...and the salvaging of Rodney Harrison from the free ageny scrap-heap.     The problem for you is Pat, that you can't discern the good from the filler. Dillon, Washington, Wright and Harrison were pretty good. The rest are filler or unproven. GMs all over the league find guys of this caliber. It's not a mark of genius as a GM.   RESPONSE: Isn't it BB's job to build a team every year? Doesn't that require good "fillers", as you put it? I prefer to call iit good role players. Isn't that how championships are won? Championships are won by a great QB and a strong D for the most part. All teams have filler.
     
    RESPONSE: Nonsense! Do you dispute that the Patriots "filler", whom I more accurately refer to a role players, were better than that of other contenders, especially during the championship years? Isn't true that the Patriots placed a higher value on special teams than most other teams? Isn't the reason why the Pats have been able to absorb injuries better than most teams is because of their philosophy...few stars, and a strong middle class of players? I suggest you read "Patriot Reign". 

       6.) The trade made with the 49ers in 2007, which ended up netting the Patriots Randy Moss, and Jarod Mayo; Yup, good trader. Let's not forget the #1 we lost because of BB's boneheaded spygate scandal.   RESPONSE: Desperation. You're starting to sound like UD6. Spygate was a NY media driven, manufactured scandal...where that tool of a Commissioner, Roger "Jets" Goodell...caved to media pressure, and punished the Patriots in an unprecedented manner. No one could have forseen such a harsh punishment, for such a relatively minor infraction. TP, just stop with the homer BS. People outside of Pat's Nation don't see it that way. And they are right to an extent. Taping after the memo was just plain idiotic, if not cheating. The problem isn't me sounding like UD6, the problem is your denial.The FACT is with the judgement of an idiot, BB brought the worst cheating scandal in league history down on the good name of our beloved team. Spin it all you like, but that is the bottom line. To this day it sickens me he brought this stench on us we have to scramble to somehow justify. IDIOTIC! RESPONSE: Me, a homer? I criticize BB and the Patriots as much as anybody. For the great majority of the past decade, BB has put his team in a position to contend for a championship.Only the Steelers and Colts can make the same claim. While a memo on the subject should have been heeded, no one could have forseen the dearth consequences of disregarding it.  If you hate BB so much, please name for me someone else who is available, that can do a better job? For that matter, please name someone who has done a better job, over the past decade?    I don't see much scrutiny from you regarding BB. Brady has put this team in a position to contend, not BB. I have never said I hate BB. I rather like him. Anybody who would be a better than average GM would be better than BB. Why the past decade? Why not who has been better over the last 6 years? In that case 4-5 names can be brought to bear.
     
    RESPONSE: Obviously, you haven't been reading my posts, and "Report Cards", over the years...or you would know better. Like you, I too have been accused of being a troll...LOL!! Why the past decade? Because you were claiming that BB has been "an average GM". You didn't say that he's been an average GM over the past 6 years...which is an entirely different discussion. Incidently, who are the four or five names that can be "brought to bear"?

     7.) The selection of OG Logan Mankins with the 32nd overall pick in 2005; Good pick, but where was he in the '07 SB? And he has turned out to be a jerk .   RESPONSE: Using this twisted logic, than Tom Brady sucks too...because he had a bad playoff game against the Jets. I don't think Mankins is a jerk. I do think that he followed some bad advise from his agent...and that Bob Kraft was unreasonable with him in demanding that Mankins apologize several different times, and in several different ways. I see Mankins and the Pats getting a long term deal done, fairly soon.  Sorry TP, Mankins is overrated and a jerk. Brady is neither of those.   RESPONSE: Apparently, the NFL players disagree with you...as Mankins was ranked by them as the league's 39th best player. Only Jabari Evans was rated higher as a OG, at #36? When did you become such a hater, Babe? I never said Mankins wasn't a great player.
     
    RESPONSE: You "never said Mankins wasn't a great player"? Oh...perhaps I misunderstood when you said that "...Mankins is overrated and a jerk".

    I just said he's not as great as people claim. Apparently your hero BB agrees, as he has not opened up the treasure chest for him and was willing to play without him completely rather than give him the top money he wants.

    RESPONSE: That is incorrect, sir...and you know it: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/09/espn-patriots-had-deal-with-pro-bowler-logan-mankins-that-fell-apart-over-an-apology/1 

    Do you call everybody who disagrees with you a hater? That is a rather cheap shot tactic TP. Rise above it.
     
    RESPONSE: No...but I call those who call a legendary coach and GM, who took a team that was the Cincinnati Bengals of the Northeast, and transformed them into champions, and perennial contenders...a hater.     

    8.) The selection of CB Devin McCourty with 27th pick in 2010; Yup, good pick so far.   RESPONSE: But for Suh, McCourty was the defensive rookie of the year. One year isn't a guarantee, but the prospects look great.   10.) Trading Drew Bledsoe in 2002 for Buffalo's #1 draft choice in 2003...which was used to select DE Ty Warren. Again, good trader, but I'm not going to agree Warren was a great pick at #13 overall based on his results.   RESPONSE: Warren has been a very solid player, until injuries caught up with him. Warren was a blah pick for going that high.   RESPONSE: Being a top 3-4 DE is a "blah" pick? Look at the problems the Pats have had at DE without the "blah" Ty Warren, in 2010. Waren was a  pro-bowler in 2007. According to PFR Warren has never made a pro-bowl. What, did 4 guys bow out for injuries? I find it hard to believe a "top" DE has NEVER made a pro-bowl. Warren remains a blah pick for going #13 overall.
     
    RESPONSE: So, are you denying that Warren has been a very good player for the Patriots, when healthy? In 2007, Warren was named All-Pro, even though he was not selected to the pro-bowl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Warren
          But, let's go back and take a look at Warren's class, and see who among the #1 picks were a better selection...shall we?:

    1.) Of the twelve players taken before Warren, only these were better, or arguably better players: QB Carson Palmer (#1) WR Andre Johnson (#3) , OT Jordan Gross (#8), DT Kevin Williams (#9), DE Terrell Suggs (#10), CB Marcus Trufant (#11);

    2.) After Warren, the list is much shorter: SS Troy Polamalu (#16), TE Dallas Clark (#24), RB Larry Johnson (#27), CB Nnamdi Asomugha (#31).:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_nfl_draft

         If Drew Bledsoe was as bad as you claim, at the time the Pats traded him...it seems that BB got more than full value for a washed-up Bledsoe. Wouldn't you agree?    


    11.) Selection of USC backup QB Matt Cassel with a 7th round pick in 2007. Cassel would win 11 games for BB in 2008...and be traded for the 34th overall selection of the 2009 draft (Patrick Chung). Cassel benifited from a weak schedule and the jury is still way out on Chung.   RESPONSE: Oh...so Cassel suks? Didn't he just lead the Chiefs to the AFC West title? Sure, he has played well against weak schedules. Against a real schedule he has wilted. This year he won't be playing the NFC West. He will be coming our way. If he puts up numbers against this schedule I will agree he is good. But he won't. He will be right back to looking at a boot in his azz out of town like he was until last year's cushy schedule came along. RESPONSE: The guy led his team to a divisional title, despite a weak OL, and a mediocre defense. Look at all the teams who drafted a QB in the first round last April. That's how valuable QBs are in the NFL. He has beaten very few teams with a winning record in his career. Give up with the spin and stick to the facts. Sorry, Babe...but it seems that BB's successes far outweigh his failures. Not really. Average GM. Average drafting. Below average FA signer. Good trader.   RESPONSE: You're being ridiculous. As I've easily demonstrated above, BB has had more than his fair share of success with the draft, and through free agency. If you wish to call the signings of Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Jabar Gaffney, Danny Woodhead, BJGE, Antwain Smith, David Patten, Christian Fauria, Junior Seau, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Larry Izzo, Bryan Cox, Joe Andruzzi, Steven Neal, Tully Banta Cain, Gary Guyton, Gerard Warren, Kyle Arrington, Rob Ninkovich, Mike Wright, and Eric Moore "below average"...so be it What is with you reeling off names of mostly filler players? All GMs find guys like this to fill a roster. Yeah, most of these guys are average or below. If you stop overrating people "because if BB picked them they must be good" you will have a much clearer picture of where we actually are. RESPONSE: Overrating people? LOL!!! Last time I checked, the Pats won 14 games last season. So, BB must be doing something right. Don't you agree? Posted by BabeParilli Yeah, you constantly overrate people probably because of your Hoodie worship. Oh yes. He is doing something right. But he isn't doing enough right or he would have more to show for it than a playoff miss and two one and outs for the last 3 years.

    RESPONSE: So...everything is BB's fault...yet anything good that becomes of the team, Brady gets the credit? Sorry Babe, but you're all wet. "Worshipping" any coach who fields a strong, contending Patriots' team, year after year, is a "no-brainer". Wouldn't you agree?  
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections

    In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Many Patriots' Fans Were Upset over 2011 Draft Selections : Really? Really? So let's see... using this truly deep insight into judging the quality of a coach: 1. Vince Lombardi never won a championship without Bart Starr so there goes that over rated chump 2. Walsh never won a championship without Joe Montana so there goes that over rated chump 3. Don Shula never won a championship without Bob Greise so.... 4. Chuck Knoll never won a championship without Bradshaw... so ... yet another over rated chump... Maybe there really are only a couple of great coaches over the last 80 years.. Gibbs won it with 3 different QBs.... The next time you have some insight make sure your glasses are on.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    Now you're starting to get it. Great players make great coaches, not the other way around. Good work.
     
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