Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from HaverhillBob. Show HaverhillBob's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's : So, how do you explain Green Bay?  Their pass defense has actually done WORSE than the Pats in their first two games one of which they gave up records yards to a ROOKIE!!!!
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]
    So now, passing yards is important? As I said before, I'm more concerned about opposing QB rating.  Cam's 400+ yard passing day got him a rating of 70.  Drew Brees is Drew Brees.  I'll have to check, but he may have won a superbowl recently.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]So, you're fine with giving up 300-400 yards in the air each game?     You can spin this any way that you want, but repeated high yardage games normally is associated with high QB ratings.  Generally, teams that have a defense that allows QBs to post a 95 rating do not do so well.  Last year the two superbowl teams also happen to be the best Ds against QBs.  If opposing QBs continue to post a 95 rating against us, the points will be there too.  We've been fortunate the last two weeks and the lack of total points are an aberration.  You cannot consistently give up the yardage we have and think that teams are only going to score 21 points.   Obviously, you can win the Superbowl while still giving up a lot of yards, especially if you have a offense as great as ours.  But you can't be a great defense, as we all predicted, when you give up a lot of yards.   We had a great offense the last two years.  We need a great defense if we are going any further than nowhere.
    Posted by HaverhillBob[/QUOTE]

    thank you haverhill.
    i dont think without a stout d we cant go anywhere, but it definitely diminishes our chances. we need to improve this year.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]I think passer rating is a viable statistic to gauge defensive effectiveness. The league has become so passing biased since the Mungy rule went into effect. 
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]


    agree z i'm looking at defensive passer rating. cold hard facts follows this. a great determinant of who is going places in the playoffs (vs one and dones).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    The problem with your numbers is that you avoid the harsh reality that even though the Pats D ended up 8th in points against last season, they were nearly 5 points worse per game than the two teams that ended up in the Super Bowl, and that rather tenuous claim on 8th place was within about a paltry 2 points per game of ten other teams that were below them in those standings.

    Couple this with the fact they significantly reduced the points against them with a high rate of turnovers during the season and that half of those turnovers were gotten in 4 games, 3 of which were blowouts with the other guys desperately trying to catch up, and you see a D that was mediocre at best.

    Now, if they had managed to play that same brand of shoddy D but could make some big plays in the playoffs we might have not gone one and out. But they allowed 28 points, had zero turnovers and allowed 14 points in the 4th quarter in our only playoff game.

    It is a monumental task to spin that as good D, and so far this year's vintage looks much the same as last. Let's try to not kid ourselves.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsFanUK. Show PatsFanUK's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    Babe,

    I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that our D last year (or this) qualifies as "good" - at least not yet. On the other hand, the yards/game given up isn't the clearest indicator that the D is bad either (all you hear about the Pats D on ESPN or whatever is something along the lines of "ranked 30th on defense" going purely on yards conceded)?

    8th in points allowed whilst being near the bottom in yards allowed would suggest that this thread title makes a good point, don't you think?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's : It's not spin it's historic fact. As Kansas has said the most important stats that hold true every year is turn over ratio and points allowed. If you are towards the top of the league in both catagories it gives you the best chance to win. As far as giving up passing yards I'd be happy if they gave up 500 if they had a high turn over ratio and a low opponent points/game average.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    isn't it kind of naiive to think there's not a relationship between pts. given and total yards given up by the D? I would think that the more yards we give up, the more likely that teams are going to score against us. Vice versa, the fewer yards we give up, the more likely we are giving up fewer points.  Turnovers are exceptions to a game - and can obviously affect the outcome too. It's clear that thru two games, not only are we giving up some yardage, but we're giving up some points too. As other's have said, it's not a good recipe for winning a SB; even by your own "standard"
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]Babe, I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that our D last year (or this) qualifies as "good" - at least not yet. On the other hand, the yards/game given up isn't the clearest indicator that the D is bad either (all you hear about the Pats D on ESPN or whatever is something along the lines of "ranked 30th on defense" going purely on yards conceded)? 8th in points allowed whilst being near the bottom in yards allowed would suggest that this thread title makes a good point, don't you think?
    Posted by PatsFanUK[/QUOTE]

    They broke the record for + turnover ratio last year. That is an anomaly not the norm which should be obvious. You can't keep letting teams march up and down the field and expect them to turn it over in the playoffs multiple games in a row. That's the bottom line.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    PatsEng

    I watched the game again last night and it confirmed what I took away from the first viewing.  A lot of the yards that the D allowed were given up underneath to running backs (Matthews and Tolbert) and on short passes.  The Pats had the lead and that's what they were allowing San Diego, and Rivers took full advantage.  Not saying the yards are inflated, but they are certainly a product of what the defense was allowing.  BTW- Gates was absolutely dealt with by Chung, Brown and Dowling.  The more I see of Dowling, the more I like him because he's a good matchup for both WRs and TEs.  

    I am not about to sit here, however, and try to defend the defensive backs for giving up long plays.  Jackson and Floyd made some fantastic catches on some pretty good throws from Rivers, which were completed with at least 2 defenders in position on some occasions.  The coverage was there, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement from the whole defensive backfield. 

    This was San Diego, a good offense, so I'm not as worried.  But if the Miamis of the world continue to light them up, I'd be a bit more worried.  I fully expect that by game 8 this team D will be better, lots of new guys still trying to fit in. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    i didnt read all the entries in this thread...

    but I beleive bb has been quoted in the past stating that the important things he cares about are points scored against and third down efficiency...

    im pretty sure we are 2-0 right now...one of only 7 teams...

    all the rest of the ranting is psycho babble
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]The problem with your numbers is that you avoid the harsh reality that even though the Pats D ended up 8th in points against last season, they were nearly 5 points worse per game than the two teams that ended up in the Super Bowl, and that rather tenuous claim on 8th place was within about a paltry 2 points per game of ten other teams that were below them in those standings. Couple this with the fact they significantly reduced the points against them with a high rate of turnovers during the season and that half of those turnovers were gotten in 4 games, 3 of which were blowouts with the other guys desperately trying to catch up, and you see a D that was mediocre at best. Now, if they had managed to play that same brand of shoddy D but could make some big plays in the playoffs we might have not gone one and out. But they allowed 28 points, had zero turnovers and allowed 14 points in the 4th quarter in our only playoff game. It is a monumental task to spin that as good D, and so far this year's vintage looks much the same as last. Let's try to not kid ourselves.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]


    id have to say after reading your posts for the last month that you have easily become the "FAN" most likely.....to be considered as the teams leading TROLL!

    Keep up the good work bab(e)!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]Few, if any, are more indicative of wins and losses than passer rating. Teams that posted a higher passer rating went 203-53 (.793) in 2010 and an incredible 151-29 (.839) after Week 5. Brady is so freaking good he offsets the Patriots ok defense but they cannot recover when he has an off day like against the Jets. 80% win percentage when you have a better QB rating . Its obvious. You can't stop the pass now you lose in the long run.
    Posted by tompenny[/QUOTE]

    well hopefully the defense will get better as the season progresses... especially in third down efficiency...

    i thought in the sandiego game we would have been off the field on two of their touchdown drives...except for two very questionable officiating calls....  if that were the case alot of the whiners would be whining about something else...(Im not lumping you in with them just kind of agreeing with your post)
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from lombardi479. Show lombardi479's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    Everyone can say what they want about the Pats' D.  The seasons young and anything can happen.  When the Pats' offense has a game where they only score 21 points, can the D step up and hold the other team under 21? 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's : agree z i'm looking at defensive passer rating. cold hard facts follows this. a great determinant of who is going places in the playoffs (vs one and dones).
    Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]

    Indeed, the thread has its merits, no doubt. But so many of the turnovers, that depressed the points against (thus hiding the fact that they were porus overall) were because of the offense being a.) flawless and b.) potent. 

    All the teams in the AFC and NFC Championship games last season were top ten in yards AND points. Yardage isn't everything ... that is for sure ... but it means something. 

    Efficiency stats, IMO, could probably encapsulate this best. Even "rating against" though, is too short. 

    NE gave up a ton of yards to a very good offense ... not the end of the world. SD can rack up points and yards with the best of em, and there is no shame in letting up 21 points against that team. Heck, a glass half full guy could say "if NE only let up 21 against them, the bottom 16 offenses should only score like seven."

    But if they are 25th again after facing a full 16 team gamut, it will be something to worry about, even if they are #1 in points and #1 in turnovers. If the offense stops chugging, and the opponent has an open playbook in a close low scoring game ... do we really have faith they can force an opponent into a turnover? I'm iffy on it, judging on how the defense folded against the Jets twice when the offense slowed down and wasn't forcing Sanchez to throw the ball all night. 

    Time will tell.... 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    Also, it's waaay to early to get on anyone in the NFL about yards given up. 

    Two games are a miniscule sample. 

    NE AND GB are 31 and 30 in yards ... but they've both played nothing but top 10 yardage teams with somewhat potent offenses. 

    Again ... wait until NE plays some teams that have average offenses and great defenses ... like Pitt and New Jersey (Jests and Gints). Well learn more when the offense isn't scoring 35 points, and the defense is forced to box for its bread. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    We are overlooking several key issues here.  The philosophy of bend but don't break has an inherent flaw.  Allowing yardage does shift the time of possession and reduces the touches that the offense has to operate.  Long periods of inactivity disrupts offensive rhythm.  We have already seen quarters (as in the 3rd quarter against SD) where the offense stalled. Our survival strength rests with the performance of our offense.

    Secondly, our defense suffers when they are required to stay on the field for long stretches.  We do rely on frequent substitutions since we  have age concerns
    on our defensive line  and a no huddle offense can neutralize our substitution pattern by preventing substitutions.  Tired defenses can and will under-perform which will ultimately impact our goal line defense. A SB team cannot allow a quality opponent to routinely enjoy 3rd down success!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from lombardi479. Show lombardi479's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]Also, it's waaay to early to get on anyone in the NFL about yards given up.  Two games are a miniscule sample.  NE AND GB are 31 and 30 in yards ... but they've both played nothing but top 10 yardage teams with somewhat potent offenses.  Again ... wait until NE plays some teams that have average offenses and great defenses ... like Pitt and New Jersey (Jests and Gints). Well learn more when the offense isn't scoring 35 points, and the defense is forced to box for its bread. 
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    Agreed.  I want to see what this Pats team does when Brady and Co have a bad day.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from GadisRKO. Show GadisRKO's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]So, you're fine with giving up 300-400 yards in the air each game?     You can spin this any way that you want, but repeated high yardage games normally is associated with high QB ratings.  Generally, teams that have a defense that allows QBs to post a 95 rating do not do so well.  Last year the two superbowl teams also happen to be the best Ds against QBs.  If opposing QBs continue to post a 95 rating against us, the points will be there too.  We've been fortunate the last two weeks and the lack of total points are an aberration.  You cannot consistently give up the yardage we have and think that teams are only going to score 21 points.   Obviously, you can win the Superbowl while still giving up a lot of yards, especially if you have a offense as great as ours.  But you can't be a great defense, as we all predicted, when you give up a lot of yards.   We had a great offense the last two years.  We need a great defense if we are going any further than nowhere.
    Posted by HaverhillBob[/QUOTE]

    The Packers have allowed over 800 yards passing whle while the steelers got TORCHED by the ravens so your "the superbowl teams from last year have amazing defenses" is just hot garbage.

    Why isn't Green Bay getting ripped for allowing this many YARDS? because their O is taking care of business( just like our O) and their defense is coming up with timely goal line stands and turnovers( just like our defense)


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's : The Packers have allowed over 800 yards passing whle while the steelers got TORCHED by the ravens so your "the superbowl teams from last year have amazing defenses" is just hot garbage. Why isn't Green Bay getting ripped for allowing this many YARDS? because their O is taking care of business( just like our O) and their defense is coming up with timely goal line stands and turnovers( just like our defense)
    Posted by GadisRKO[/QUOTE]

    It's a new year. The fact of the matter is that teams that stop opposing QB's from having high QB ratings win more games. Period. GB and Steelers were ranked 1 and 2 respectively at stopping the pass last year. I believe 1 team in history won a SB with a higher QB rating of 80+ average. That is somehow coincidence? No way.
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]Also, it's waaay to early to get on anyone in the NFL about yards given up.  Two games are a miniscule sample.  NE AND GB are 31 and 30 in yards ... but they've both played nothing but top 10 yardage teams with somewhat potent offenses.  Again ... wait until NE plays some teams that have average offenses and great defenses ... like Pitt and New Jersey (Jests and Gints). Well learn more when the offense isn't scoring 35 points, and the defense is forced to box for its bread. 
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    Excellent point ZB.

    If our offense scores on average 30 points per game, and our defense allows on average 21 points per game, then it would seem logical we will win more games than lose...kind of like the regular season last year at 14-2.

    Where we run into trouble is with elite defenses....
    If we play an elite defense that gives up on average 17 points per game, then our D needs to limit that opponents offense to something less than 17 points. Our D wasn't capable of that last year, and in fact exceeded their average, with no turnovers to boot.
    It was a worst case scenario...offense couldn't produce to average, and our D couldn't produce to average + they could'nt record any takeaways. That happened at the worst possible time..the playoffs.

    I think when we play a team with an ellite defense, we need to be able to bring pressure on the opposing QB all game long. If we had that capability last year, I highly doubt Sancheeze would have been effective at all. They would have not scored 28 points, and their TOP would be a lot less...plus Sancheeze QB rating would have been abyssmal.
    So this "opportunity based defense", "one that keeps the ball in front of them" is fine and dandy, but we need to attack aggresively when pitted against an elite defensive team, or it will be a long day. Our D needs to do better than the other team's D average points allowed or we lose.

    Sure yards allowed, 1st downs, QB rating, etc. don't tell the whole story.but this is a game of inches...eventually inches multiply into yards, and yards into scores.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's

    In Response to Re: Why yrds given up isn't the most important stat for D's:
    [QUOTE]It was a worst case scenario...offense couldn't produce to average, and our D couldn't produce to average + they could'nt record any takeaways. That happened at the worst possible time..the playoffs. I think when we play a team with an ellite defense, we need to be able to bring pressure on the opposing QB all game long.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Teams with an "elite" pass rush; especially up the middle - is the Patriots' Kryptonite. Not only do we need to bring pressure all game long vs. opposing QB, but the coaching staff and players have to be able to change quickly and run more, more screens, and more play action, and more protection for Brady (either a FB - which we don't have, or TEs). Coaches also have to play for field position and manage the clock in some of these lower scoring affairs.
     

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