wow boomer esiason!!!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    THere is plenty of debating.  

    Otto Graham isn't even on his top 5 list and Elway makes #3?  Marino kills Elway. To me that isn't even close from that era.  Denver had better overall teams around Elway, too.

    Elway was one of the worst postseason QBs I ever saw, has a horrendous TD/INT ratio, too. I don't see how he can be in a top 5 discussion.  HIs last 2 SBs have a big dark cloud over them, too with a massive cheating scandal as Bowlen clearly cooked his books to basically build him an All Star team.

    1. Montana (4 Rings, Joe Cool, impeccable leadership)

    2. Graham (dominated NFL in 1950s)

    3. Brady (could be the best if he can get another ring and improve in postseasons)

    4. Unitas

    5. Sammy Baugh (mastered forward pass)

    For now, that's my top 5, trying to keep a mix of old and new.

    6-10

    Marino (no ring, but Shula was a moron by that point)

    Manning (1 ring, all the records, but offensive era Polian arranged)

    Elway

    Young (highest compl% ever)

    Starr (rings, great teams, a winner)

    11-15

    Bradshaw (4 rings, but really not a great QB to be in the top 10 discussion, IMO

    Staubach (very underrated HOF QB, could be a back end top 10 guy)

    Tarkenton (1 ring puts him possibly into the top 10)

    Moon

    Jim Kelly

    16-20

    YA Tittle

    Sid Luckman

    etc

    [/QUOTE]

    Putting Otto Graham in front of Brady, Marino, Manning, or Elway I just can't agree with. The guy was an amazing athlete(didn't he win a basketball championship before Paul brown brought him to Cleveland) and he was a great QB in a much different game of football...

    Graham's 1st 4 or 5 years in the league you could still throw the ball to all the offensive linemen. I mean it wasn't even close to the same game, and after the rules were changed to exclude linemen from being eligible receivers Grahams numbers spiraled.

    Right when they changed the game to force more down field passing(and excitement) Graham threw 14 tds to 20 int's in 1950. The next and last 5 years of his career went like this:

    1950 14 tds to 20 int's

    1951 17 tds to 16 int's

    1952 20 tds to 24 int's

    1953 11 tds to 9 int's

    1954 11 tds to 17 int's

    1955 15 tds to 8 int's

    The entire sport was different but to look at what Graham "The QB" did and compare it to Joe Montana, Brady, Elway, Marino and Peyton isn't fair to either party.

     

    Tom Brady has 3 Super Bowls but so many records on top of that. Played in the free agency era where they take your Jerry Rices from you. That cannot be down played. The FA era changed the game.

    When you go to profootball reference and look at Tom Brady's numbers he put up compared to Elway, Marino, Aikmen, and lots of others it is total domination on top of 3 Super Bowl championships.

    Highest td to int ratio of any of them including Joe and PM and highest winning % in NFL history.

    Now Joe put up similar numbers given the defensive era he played in(Joe getting 3,500 yards is like Tom or Peyton getting 4,500 imo) His td to int ratio was amazing, better then Elway, and company. Montana only lost 47 regular season games in his career, 117-47, Brady is at 148 - 43 AMAZING. 

    But if who the best QB comes down to only the guys who won more championships then you have to put guys like Eli and Big ben ahead of Peyton and Marino and everybody who has ever watched football knows that isn't true.

    I compare guys with similar careers and opportunities.

    Tier 1. Montana, Brady, Elway have 14 SB appearances between them. Similar numbers.

    Tier 2 I would put Unitas, Peyton, and Marino here, 3 of the best QB's to ever play the game regardless of opportunities to win a championships

    Tier 3 The championship club...Graham, Bradshaw, Aikmen, Staubach, Starr. Guys that played on great teams and were good QB's

    Tier 4 Brett Favre, Eli, Ben, Griese, Steve Young, brees, Plunkett. Guys who played well when it counted although Favre gets to tier 4 only based on longevity(and he did play well against us in 97)

    The way I see it Tom Brady edges out Joe Montana based on the free agency era and amazing td to int ratio(a true measure of a QB's impact on winning and losing) and winning %(both played on great teams though Montana's were probably better all around and certainly better on offense with Rice, Craig, Taylor, Rathman etc...)

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Boomer said it before the 2012 AFC Championship game.

     

    Brady is not #1 in my eyes yet, def top 3 tho. In my opinion, he still needs to win another one.

    And I don't say that because I don't think 3 Super Bowls is a good number. My biggest slight is that he hasnt had a good postseason game against a good team in a while.

    Brady's career is largely defined by what he did in his first 4 seasons as a starter...and there's a dark cloud over those times for some.

     

    After that, he's been extremely similar to P Manning in terms of reg season statistics and postseason statistics.

     

    A run like 2009 Brees, 2010 Rodgers or 2012 Flacco would really put him over the top. And i fully believe he's capable of that, even at 37.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to 42AND46's comment:


    Mediocre GM

    Is this some sort of put down? Every GM is mediocre.

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Well it's not that big of a surprise. Tom Brady, Otto Graham, and Joe Montana would make a nice Mt.Rushmore..

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Manning is not a top 5 QB.  He's a regular season compiler who always crappps his pants in the big game.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Boomer was always one of my very favorite analysts. He tells it like it is.

     

    I too would put Brady ahead of Montana. He has done more, with less.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    I'm not objective at all about this.  I think Brady is the GOAT for a variety of reasons not the least of which is his drive to win any given game any way he can.  He truly does not give a rat's a_ss about stats except one: the final score. 

    That aside it is not really possible to compare Montana - Brady.  Different eras, different team parameters (salary cap).  Just my opinion.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!


    TB's and Montana playoff records stats very similar

    Montana had greater talent in rice and taylor, as Joe said a nice 7 yd pass turns into an 84 yd TD recpetion - great for the stats

    Manning has taken a big hit here after this last SB

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Pats' fans love it, Brady haters question it, trolls want to dump on it, Rusty prefers Otto Graham.  And when the next talking head puts out their Mt Rushmore of QBs and Brady is not on it, it will be the reverse.  Pats fans will hate it, Brady haters will love it, trolls will extol the virtues of the talking head and Rusty will still prefer Otto Graham.

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Rusty, I understand the Graham kudos..  in his era he WAS the pre-eminent player in the NFL and there were very few at that time who matched him.  Today, there are so many real good NFL players playing at the same time, it is tough to put one head and shoulders above the rest unless you pick and chose certain stats.

     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to agcsbill's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Rusty, I understand the Graham kudos..  in his era he WAS the pre-eminent player in the NFL and there were very few at that time who matched him.  Today, there are so many real good NFL players playing at the same time, it is tough to put one head and shoulders above the rest unless you pick and chose certain stats.

    [/QUOTE]

    I try to pick the great QB of the era for my top 5.

    I think that is more than rational and fair.

    [/QUOTE]

    Given your statement..  have a GoaT by era may make the most sense given the differences each era presented to the player.  Even in this, the "parity" era, there have been huge differences in the way the NFL plays the game from just 10 years ago.  It is just about impossible to pick one GoaT, but, you can have a group which represent players that could easily be interchanged at the top spot depending on what one considers to be key differential elements.

     
  15. This post has been removed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to agcsbill's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Pats' fans love it, Brady haters question it, trolls want to dump on it, Rusty prefers Otto Graham.  And when the next talking head puts out their Mt Rushmore of QBs and Brady is not on it, it will be the reverse.  Pats fans will hate it, Brady haters will love it, trolls will extol the virtues of the talking head and Rusty will still prefer Otto Graham.

    [/QUOTE]

    Graham is regarded by critics as one of the most dominant players of his era, having taken the Browns to league championship games every year between 1946 and 1955, winning seven of them. With Graham at quarterback, the Browns posted a record of 114 wins, 20 losses and four ties, including a 9–3 win–loss record in the playoffs. While most of Graham's statistical records have been surpassed in the modern era, he still holds the NFL record for career average yards gained perpass attempt, with nine. He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.814.

    [/QUOTE]

    He also played for a guy you may have heard of...Paul Brown. The guy only brought 3 Super Bowl championships to Cleveland thus the name, "The Cleveland Browns" before Art Model did what Art Model does and chased him to Cinci where he started the Cinci Bengals in "Paul Brown Stadium" 

    Oh by the way, the 3 NFL championships the Browns won with Paul Brown and Otto Graham, Graham threw for 40 tds and 45 interceptions in those 3 years(1950,54, and 55) So, yeah Graham was an amazing athlete and pounded the ball for 2 ypc and a lot of tds and could gain a lot of yards per catch when throwing to 11 receiving options but wasn't a special passing QB.

    Paul Brown made the Browns, not Graham.

     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to agcsbill's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Pats' fans love it, Brady haters question it, trolls want to dump on it, Rusty prefers Otto Graham.  And when the next talking head puts out their Mt Rushmore of QBs and Brady is not on it, it will be the reverse.  Pats fans will hate it, Brady haters will love it, trolls will extol the virtues of the talking head and Rusty will still prefer Otto Graham.

    [/QUOTE]

    Graham is regarded by critics as one of the most dominant players of his era, having taken the Browns to league championship games every year between 1946 and 1955, winning seven of them. With Graham at quarterback, the Browns posted a record of 114 wins, 20 losses and four ties, including a 9–3 win–loss record in the playoffs. While most of Graham's statistical records have been surpassed in the modern era, he still holds the NFL record for career average yards gained perpass attempt, with nine. He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.814.

    [/QUOTE]

    He also played for a guy you may have heard of...Paul Brown. The guy only brought 3 Super Bowl championships to Cleveland thus the name, "The Cleveland Browns" before Art Model did what Art Model does and chased him to Cinci where he started the Cinci Bengals in "Paul Brown Stadium" 

    Oh by the way, the 3 NFL championships the Browns won with Paul Brown and Otto Graham, Graham threw for 40 tds and 45 interceptions in those 3 years(1950,54, and 55) So, yeah Graham was an amazing athlete and pounded the ball for 2 ypc and a lot of tds and could gain a lot of yards per catch when throwing to 11 receiving options but wasn't a special passing QB.

    Paul Brown made the Browns, not Graham.

    [/QUOTE]

    BB made the Patriots. I would say each great QB, the best in their eras, also has a HOF coach.

    THey go hand in hand, but I agree the architect lays the groundwork for the QB to thrive.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. BB, Coughlin, Cowher(Knoll) Jimmy Johnson, Walsh, Landry, Brown. No denying it. 

    Doesn't change the fact that Graham was too different a player to be compare to Montana, Brady etc...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    Let's see, Roethlisberger won Super Bowls with 2 different Head Coaches neither of which is a HOF'er.

     

    Just to prove Defense Wins Championships:

    Super Bowl 40  9/21    123 Yards   0-TD's  2 INT's QBR-22.6

    Super Bowl 43  21/30  256 Yards   1-TD     1 INT   QBR-93.2

     

    1 freaking TD pass and 3 INT's in 2 Super Bowl Victories yet some unemployed 30 year old is running around this board putting down Brady.  What a fool.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    You get to a point where it's not possible to agree on criteria. I have Montana ahead of Brady personally, and on most days Elway ahead of him also. Unitas is starting to get into an era I can't assess very well. 

    Right now Brady is in that conversation but I'd say he has a little bit more to prove. Manning isn't in this conversation unless you expand it to top ten QBs of all time, then he is on the edge of it.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You get to a point where it's not possible to agree on criteria. I have Montana ahead of Brady personally, and on most days Elway ahead of him also. Unitas is starting to get into an era I can't assess very well. 

    Right now Brady is in that conversation but I'd say he has a little bit more to prove. Manning isn't in this conversation unless you expand it to top ten QBs of all time, then he is on the edge of it.

    [/QUOTE]

    You would have to admit that Manning is at the top at accumulating regular season stats at rate on par or greater than Brett Favre.

     
  22. This post has been removed.

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You get to a point where it's not possible to agree on criteria. I have Montana ahead of Brady personally, and on most days Elway ahead of him also. Unitas is starting to get into an era I can't assess very well. 

    Right now Brady is in that conversation but I'd say he has a little bit more to prove. Manning isn't in this conversation unless you expand it to top ten QBs of all time, then he is on the edge of it.

    [/QUOTE]

    ... and if the Pats D had held onto the leads Brady led the team to in SBs 42 &  46, what would be your take?  It is one thing if Brady never got the team into a position to win those two SBs and another to see the D lose it and it is Brady's fault?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: wow boomer esiason!!!!

    In response to agcsbill's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You get to a point where it's not possible to agree on criteria. I have Montana ahead of Brady personally, and on most days Elway ahead of him also. Unitas is starting to get into an era I can't assess very well. 

    Right now Brady is in that conversation but I'd say he has a little bit more to prove. Manning isn't in this conversation unless you expand it to top ten QBs of all time, then he is on the edge of it.

    [/QUOTE]

    ... and if the Pats D had held onto the leads Brady led the team to in SBs 42 &  46, what would be your take?  It is one thing if Brady never got the team into a position to win those two SBs and another to see the D lose it and it is Brady's fault?

    [/QUOTE]

    100%, of course ht epoint could be made that if Brady didn't throw the INT to Gronk or take a safety or if the offense could have done much more of anything in either SB Brady would have another 2 rings as well, but I agree it is splitting hairs saying Brady failed in the SB. it was a defensive battle for 2 HOF coaches and Brady put the team on his back and scored the go ahead td in both games...not sure what else you can ask for? if the D holds we have 5 SB championships in 13 years...6 if you want to count the refs rip job in INDY.....oh but Bill Belichick doesn't build good team...Surprised??????

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share