WRs and Manning vs. Brady

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    WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    The difference between TB and PM one has to have the best receivers in the world in order to succeed and the other could have a gas station attendent and be successful... All that aside I believe that the Patriots have made an effort to bring in a better quality WR for TB to work with on several occassions. Moss,Stallworth, Ocho,Lloyd and I could name several others. At this time they have brought in Amendola,Jones,Jenkins,Hawkins,and several rookies.

     
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    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady


    Brady won superbowls with a bunch of no-name WRs, our TEs are some of the best (when healthy), our OL is strong, our RBs have serious talent.....My guess is that Brady will make it work just fine.

    I'm more curious as to how this young defense gels.....

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady


    How can anyone attempt to make the case that Brown, Welker and Moss were not great WRs?   As far as Brady not starting down WRs early in his career, looks like we're dealing with a pink hat fan that missed those games.  Brown was the go to guy.  We knew it and the other team knew it.  You don't get a hundred catches without your QB staring you down.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from AZPAT. Show AZPAT's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pezz4pats's comment:

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.




    You're absolutely right.... Brady can over and underthrow ANYONE when it matters most.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

    [/QUOTE]

    How have Manning's WRs done post Manning?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    Ya, you are absolutely right as can any QB.  But considering TB  consistently has some of the best completion percentages (along with a high % of WR drops)  in the NFL, imagine what he could do with real talent.


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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    Ya, you are absolutely right as can any QB.  But considering TB  consistently has some of the best completion percentages (along with a high % of WR drops)  in the NFL, imagine what he could do with real talent.


    ___________________________________________
                                  
                             



    Do you have any numbers to back that up about a high drop percentage?  Or is this an opinion that you're trying to slip in as fact.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

     

     

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

     

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     

     



    How have Manning's WRs done post Manning?

     

     

    Well Reggie Wayne off the top of my head and don't discount the receivers he had that contributed while he was there.  Harrison, Clark, James,Addai, Pollard who spent most or all of their years there.  Which Pats receivers have done that???????Pfffttt

    Most don't last 3 years, normally one season!  LOL  GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT!!!

     




     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

     

     

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

     

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     

     



    How have Manning's WRs done post Manning?

     

     

    Well Reggie Wayne off the top of my head and don't discount the receivers he had that contributed while he was there.  Harrison, Clark, James, Faulk, Pollard who spent most or all of their years there.  Which Pats receivers have done that???????Pfffttt

    Most don't last 3 years, normally one season!  LOL  GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT!!!

     




     




    Are you aware that Clark, Faulk and James are not WRs? 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

     

     

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

     

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     

     



    How have Manning's WRs done post Manning?

     

     

    Well Reggie Wayne off the top of my head and don't discount the receivers he had that contributed while he was there.  Harrison, Clark, James, Faulk, Pollard who spent most or all of their years there.  Which Pats receivers have done that???????Pfffttt

    Most don't last 3 years, normally one season!  LOL  GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT!!!

     




     




    Wayne off the top of your head what?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    When 2 of your top receiving options are TEs it seems silly to complain about lack of talent on the offense and only mention WRs.  Since 2007 (which is when the offense started scoring 500 points a year) guys that have caught passes from Brady have gone to a combined 10 pro bowls and 7 all-pro teams.  Plus we routinely have one of the top offensive lines in football.  Brady is a great QB, but there is a reason the 2006 team scored 385 points and the 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 squads all scored over 500.  Hint: It wasn't that Brady suddenly became a better player.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Ya, you are absolutely right as can any QB.  But considering TB  consistently has some of the best completion percentages (along with a high % of WR drops)  in the NFL, imagine what he could do with real talent.


    ___________________________________________
                                  
                             

     



    Do you have any numbers to back that up about a high drop percentage?  Or is this an opinion that you're trying to slip in as fact.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Umm yes, the Pats had the highest amount of drops in the league last year, it's common knowledge.  Wes Welker had more than the whole Raven offense combined and had the same amount in 2011.  LOL  Hernandez was also in the top 15, I believe, with limited playing time.

    Not trying to bash Welker or Hern, but they do drop some balls and they do lower completion %.  Lloyd barely caught 50% of what was thrown to him last year.  NOT GOOD!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    When 2 of your top receiving options are TEs it seems silly to complain about lack of talent on the offense and only mention WRs.  Since 2007 (which is when the offense started scoring 500 points a year) guys that have caught passes from Brady have gone to a combined 10 pro bowls and 7 all-pro teams.  Plus we routinely have one of the top offensive lines in football.  Brady is a great QB, but there is a reason the 2006 team scored 385 points and the 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 squads all scored over 500.  Hint: It wasn't that Brady suddenly became a better player.


    A reason?  Sure, there must be a reason.  Look around the NFL.  Teams that score the most points throw the most. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    When 2 of your top receiving options are TEs it seems silly to complain about lack of talent on the offense and only mention WRs.  Since 2007 (which is when the offense started scoring 500 points a year) guys that have caught passes from Brady have gone to a combined 10 pro bowls and 7 all-pro teams.  Plus we routinely have one of the top offensive lines in football.  Brady is a great QB, but there is a reason the 2006 team scored 385 points and the 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 squads all scored over 500.  Hint: It wasn't that Brady suddenly became a better player.



    This is one of those fact-infested posts that flies in the face of the underlying premise of the thread.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    When 2 of your top receiving options are TEs it seems silly to complain about lack of talent on the offense and only mention WRs.  Since 2007 (which is when the offense started scoring 500 points a year) guys that have caught passes from Brady have gone to a combined 10 pro bowls and 7 all-pro teams.  Plus we routinely have one of the top offensive lines in football.  Brady is a great QB, but there is a reason the 2006 team scored 385 points and the 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 squads all scored over 500.  Hint: It wasn't that Brady suddenly became a better player.

     



     

    This is one of those fact-infested posts that flies in the face of the underlying premise of the thread.

    [/QUOTE]

    The premise is misguided at best, as are a number of the responses.  Brady has had plenty of talent around him, even with the failures of many of those drafted and signed that were intended to help.  Those saying that he is somehow a different (worse) QB than earlier in his career have no factual basis to back that up.  Those saying that Manning has had this incredible amount of talent around him and that's what made him successful are also misguided. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

     

     

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

     

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     

     



    How have Manning's WRs done post Manning?

     

     

    Well Reggie Wayne off the top of my head and don't discount the receivers he had that contributed while he was there.  Harrison, Clark, James, Faulk, Pollard who spent most or all of their years there.  Which Pats receivers have done that???????Pfffttt

    Most don't last 3 years, normally one season!  LOL  GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT!!!

     




     

     




    Are you aware that Clark, Faulk and James are not WRs? 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Ummm yes I am, but they are listed as all time Indy receivers as is Kevin Faulk and Gronk and Hern.  12 years and a handful of notable receivers and half of them aren't WR's.

    Please point out all the talented WR's here that TB has enjoyed throughout his career. UGH

    New England Patriots All-time Leading Receivers

    Players listed in bold were active with the team during the 2012 season.
    AAFC statistics are not included in franchise totals.

     

    Player Seasons # Yrs Rec Yds Avg Lg TD Wes Welker 2007-2012 6 672 7,459 11.1 99t 37 Troy Brown 1993,1995-2006 13 557 6,366 11.4 82t 31 Stanley Morgan 1977-1989 13 534 10,352 19.4 76t 67 Ben Coates 1991-1999 9 490 5,471 11.2 84t 50 Kevin Faulk 1999-2011 13 431 3,701 8.6 52t 15 Irving Fryar 1984-1992 9 363 5,726 15.8 80t 38 Terry Glenn 1996-2001 6 329 4,669 14.2 86t 22 Deion Branch 2002-2005,2010-2012 7 328 4,297 13.1 79t 24 Gino Cappelletti 1960-1969 10 292 4,589 15.7 63t 42 Jim Colclough 1960-1968 9 283 5,001 17.7 78t 39 Tony Collins 1981-1987 7 261 2,356 9.0 49 12 Randy Moss 2007-2010 4 259 3,904 15.1 76t 50 Vincent Brisby 1993-1995,1997-1999 6 217 3,142 14.5 72 14 Marv Cook 1989-1993 5 210 1,843 8.8 49 11 Sam Cunningham 1973-1979,1981 8 210 1,905 9.1 41 6 Russ Francis 1975-1980,1988 7 207 3,157 15.3 53 28 Art Graham 1963-1968 6 199 3,107 15.6 80t 20 Cedric Jones 1982-1990 9 191 2,703 14.2 65t 16 Rob Gronkowski 2010-2012 3 187 2,663 14.2 52t 38 Larry Garron 1960-1968 9 185 2,502 13.5 76t 26 Shawn Jefferson 1996-1999 4 178 3,081 17.3 76 14 Randy Vataha 1971-1976 6 178 3,055 17.2 88t 23
     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. This post has been removed.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to MeadowlandMike's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

     

     

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

     

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     

     



    How have Manning's WRs done post Manning?

     

     

    Well Reggie Wayne off the top of my head and don't discount the receivers he had that contributed while he was there.  Harrison, Clark, James, Faulk, Pollard who spent most or all of their years there.  Which Pats receivers have done that???????Pfffttt

    Most don't last 3 years, normally one season!  LOL  GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT!!!

     




     

     

     




    Are you aware that Clark, Faulk and James are not WRs? 

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Ummm yes I am, but they are listed as all time Indy receivers as is Kevin Faulk and Gronk and Hern.  12 years and a handful of notable receivers and half of them aren't WR's.

     

    Please point out all the talented WR's here that TB has enjoyed throughout his career. UGH

    New England Patriots All-time Leading Receivers

    Players listed in bold were active with the team during the 2012 season.
    AAFC statistics are not included in franchise totals.

     

    Player Seasons # Yrs Rec Yds Avg Lg TD Wes Welker 2007-2012 6 672 7,459 11.1 99t 37 Troy Brown 1993,1995-2006 13 557 6,366 11.4 82t 31 Stanley Morgan 1977-1989 13 534 10,352 19.4 76t 67 Ben Coates 1991-1999 9 490 5,471 11.2 84t 50 Kevin Faulk 1999-2011 13 431 3,701 8.6 52t 15 Irving Fryar 1984-1992 9 363 5,726 15.8 80t 38 Terry Glenn 1996-2001 6 329 4,669 14.2 86t 22 Deion Branch 2002-2005,2010-2012 7 328 4,297 13.1 79t 24 Gino Cappelletti 1960-1969 10 292 4,589 15.7 63t 42 Jim Colclough 1960-1968 9 283 5,001 17.7 78t 39 Tony Collins 1981-1987 7 261 2,356 9.0 49 12 Randy Moss 2007-2010 4 259 3,904 15.1 76t 50 Vincent Brisby 1993-1995,1997-1999 6 217 3,142 14.5 72 14 Marv Cook 1989-1993 5 210 1,843 8.8 49 11 Sam Cunningham 1973-1979,1981 8 210 1,905 9.1 41 6 Russ Francis 1975-1980,1988 7 207 3,157 15.3 53 28 Art Graham 1963-1968 6 199 3,107 15.6 80t 20 Cedric Jones 1982-1990 9 191 2,703 14.2 65t 16 Rob Gronkowski 2010-2012 3 187 2,663 14.2 52t 38 Larry Garron 1960-1968 9 185 2,502 13.5 76t 26 Shawn Jefferson 1996-1999 4 178 3,081 17.3 76 14 Randy Vataha 1971-1976 6 178 3,055 17.2 88t 23[/QUOTE]


    Ok, I wasn't sure.  This was about WRs.  The Patrtiots and Colts both had plenty of non WR solid receivers over the decade.  Manning made receivers better as did Brady.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: WRs and Manning vs. Brady

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

    In response to pezz4pats's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Bunker Spreckles' comment:

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    Manning has excellent receivers to throw to. What makes it so difficult with the Pats to give Brady better talent to throw to?

     



    I think Manning is better at adapting to each WR's skill level and skill set. I also think 2007 has ruined Brady to the point he thinks he must have the best of everything.  Indy or Denver also don't have biggeer playbooks or ask their WRs to line up in differing spots. 9/10, Thomas is the Z and Decker the X. Same thing ig what Manning had with Harrison and Wayne in Indy.

    It's not so much "talent" as it is fit.  Brady being the perfectionist he is and he being buddies with McDaniels, BB not interfering and sort of scaling things back with the younger or newer WRs in years past (2008-2012), has been a mistake due to Brady not apparently having the same confidence in the non Pro Bowl talent, which is clearly unacceptable in my book because there is no way any QB is going to have all targets be All Pro level.

     

    This isn't a very unpopular theory around here, but Brady never stared down WRs back in 2002, 2003, 2004, etc.  It's either you are in the club or you're not.  You don't have the elite name on the jersey, you might be out of the club.  So, he's had a nasty habit of playing favorites, which has hampered the possible development of a new WR here.  Look at Lloyd last year. In Week 1, Brady underthrows him, deep and wide open, and Lloyd doesn't come down to it after adjusting his route to accomodate for that, and Brady acts scorned the rest of the year because Lloyd didn't sort of bail him out there.  That kind of crap from Brady has got to stop. Run the ball, get under Center, stop over-thinking and audibling all the time and just get every receiver involved on both sides of the field.

    Meanwhile, Gomer has a run game he knows he has to have and is forced to learn new WRs in Thomas and Decker. He made it work because HE HAD to. 

    Also, the Pats run a bit more complex of an offense.   Some here think that we exclusively run the Erhardt/Perkins offense here, but over the years, BB has dropped in plays that originated from different offenses.  So, if you don't know it all, know what to do based on coverages, drop balls, etc, you're going to get behind.  Torry Holt commented on this. Branch said he "had a lot to learn" when he returned in 2010. It's because the playbooks is constantly changing. 

    With Manning in Indy or now in Denver, they're not running a deep, complex offense.  They just ask their receivers and TEs to focus on certain  plays and run them very well.   Baltimore does the same thing.  They just run their offense. It's nothing fancy, they just try to achieve a balance and spread it around. We have failed at doing this.   Our QB, as great as he is, needs to be more like what Gomer was last year, Flacco or even Eli Manning. Eli would be nothing if he didn't lean on a run game. Brady needs one too, but you can't get it out of a shotgun or using a scatback early in games like we have. 

    We have over-thought our offense in recent years. Also, Manning isn't in the shotgun as much as Brady is and many WRs will tell you it's harder to get open very quickly in this league, which is essentially what throwing out of the shotgun is meant to do, and that's connect very quickly based on the D the team is playing and the matchups.

    Our offense asks WRs to line up in multiple spots, which Gomer never had his WRs doing that in Indy or in Denver. If you notice, the Harrison's or Wayne's always lined up in the same spots. Harrison was USUALLY in the Z and Wayne at the X. 

    In 2007, our offense actually was simplified down where it was just Moss/Welker, with each's skill sets easily dictating to how the opposing D would try to defend it, which was essentially double Moss deep and if you didn't, Brady would target him deep, allowing Moss's physical skills to dominate.

    The other guys who succeeded here like Patten, Troy Brown, etc, knew the system. Branch scored very highly on the wonderlic, so I think he is the aberration in the discussion.

    Overall, we run a deep and complex offense because BB wants to run different kinds of offenses from week to week if he so chooses.

    I think you'll see Dobson and Boyce slide in with the other new guys, hopefully with Brady leaning on a run game more, like Gomer did last year, which in turn helped Gomer get to playaction.

    If we just scaled things back a bit, ran a bit more and got to playaction, I think you'll see those things make our receviers look better.  Our predictability on offense in that shotgun, has admittedly hurt how our perimeter WRs can produce.

    If you notice all the lack of QB development has come with McDaniels or O'Brien here POST Brady injury in 2008. Not a coincidence.    For every Donald Hayes who did not fit in here in 2002 or Chad Jackson (bad pick, is too dumb to play here), there were 1 or 2 guys who came in and fit here.

     

     

     




    Dudette, you are so FOS!

     

    Name the receivers since 2006, (other than Moss & Welker)( drafted or FA) that went on to have illustrious careers after leaving the Pats or contributed while they were there.   Jackson?  Tate?  Underwood? Galloway? Ocho?  Branch?  Bug eyes?  Stallworth and Gaf were Ok, but nowhere near elite.

    Puleassse?   Garbage in, garbage out!  Simple as that.  Just like your posts.

     




     

    "Dudette"?  Ironic. 

    Aren't you the guy with the very unhealthy man lust for Brady that someone like Iceman here can't even start a thread for us to discuss why this continues to happen for Brady to the point BB has to trade a Moss or walk from a Welkie?

    Why does Brady have to have "elite" WRs 1-4 on the roster? What QB does? 

    "Garbage premise in, garbage premise, out", huh, Pezzy?

    We know have Welker talking about enjoying having fun in the locker room and on the field, where in NE he couldn't.  You sound as butthurt as he does, Pezzdispenser.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, dudette with an unnatural affinity for BB.
    Only a Brady hater would say that TB doesn't need  or deserve Top flight receivers to succeed.

    Look at that list!  Looks like most of the receiving talent was prior to 2001 when they didn't win a thing.

    No mention of Ocho, Lloyd, Tate, Stallworth, Gaffney, Underwood, Jackson, Galloway, Just a few  notable Wr's a RB and a couple of TE's.  That is who TB has had to work with in 12 years.  Guess we should thank our lucky stars for Moss, Welker and Gronk, even though TB didn't need them. 

    When they actually did have talent, they went undefeated.  That is until the D blew the lead.  Dope!

    If you look at all the non talent or limited talent of all the receivers, Te's, RB's throughout those 12 years, it's SHOCKING!  Not to mention the D.

    I thought the whole idea was to put the very best on the field, possible.  I guess that's not warranted for the NE Patriots.  Oh, wait...  Everyone BB drafts and brings in IS the bestest.  My bad, I forgot!

    That's what happens when you have to put most of your resources (failed draft picks and FA's) into the failed D for years.  You get the bargain basement receivers that are cut the day of the SB for a player that didn't even play????????  And you get converted QB/receivers playing DB.  W T F

    Yes, Garbage in/Garbage out.  Only a few have survived.  Luckily one of those is the QB.

    And that is not the reason for the thread.  He is pointing out the LACK OF TALENT for TB and gomer having better receivers.  Comprehend much?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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