Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bungalow-Bill. Show Bungalow-Bill's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to neinmd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    +1000. When the eternal optimists on this board are worried, there is probably pretty good reason to worry. Our D-line needs help ASAP. Sopoaga isn't enough by himself. Yesterday's game was the most worrying game of the season so far, at least for me.

    [/QUOTE]

    lol

    Is it that I'm an "eternal optimist," or is it that we've been the best team in the NFL for over a decade now and I'm just a realist... I say the latter and our record is my proof.

    But yeah, we need to get bigger upfront or our linebackers will wear down.  

    I like the use of the 3/4 again but wonder why we couldn't have utilized it more often when Wilfork and Kelly were here and healthy so we could have used them less, possibly saving them from wear and tear?  

    For people who say I'm a homer who never criticizes BB and loves guzzling koolaid please explain why I've been screaming for more 3/4 for years...

    [/QUOTE]

    When is AJ Francis going to make that impact?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to ccsjl's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Saints game - give up a TD on 3rd and 22, Jets game give up a 3rd and 25 for a first down, and yesterday give up a 3rd and 30 to let Steelers get 1 foot on fourth to convert. What is up with this?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It's how it's coached. On a conservative play like that you are likely in some kind of a '3 deep' or 'Quarters' setup. That means three safeties (or two and a corner) playing deep, or both corners and both safeties. 

    On any down and distance play, you are coached to take your drop a few yards behind the first down marker, in order to set yourself up to follow anything deeper, and also to meet the offensive palyer before he makes it to the marker. You are the last line of defense. 

    The middle group of 3 or 4 players are charged, usually, with either palying some combination of man (for instance in a man-under 3 deep) or playing a zone (most often) at an exact midpoint, or they allow their drops to shadow the WRs. 

    The issue I ahve with this play is it is too conservative for a 3rd and thirty. Because of the nature of the distance, you are essentially conceding 15 yards. Then all the player has to do is make one move to the third level. 

    The issue isn't that the third level will miss their tackles; that is quite rare. The issue is that it gives the other team a chance to establish a very makeable 4th and short or possibly eke out a first down. 

    If this play was run from the Steelers' 5 or 10, I'd partially agree. They ran it from the PIT 29. Even if they only get their conciliatory 15 yards, it has essentially allowed Pittsburgh to reestablish control of the field position battle by bringing them to the PERFECT punting location. 

    I really don't understand this play in a close game, and anywhere near midfield. Personally, in those situations, I've always defaulted to treating it like any regular down. And have even reminded my players before the down, that they should treat it like a 3rd and 10. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to 49Patriots's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Enough of this 34 talk, we have 3 DTs and a potential 4th in Armstead, we don't have enough for a 34. The big guys would have to play every snap in a 34 and would wear themselves out.

    [/QUOTE]

    We were playing a 3/4  or 3/5 with Sopo in there and who knows if Armstead plays this year

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from glenr. Show glenr's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    Here we go again with the whining armchair coaches. Lose the 3 best defensive players on the team and survive but still you all whine.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kevin13130. Show kevin13130's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    I think it comes down to aggression. I seem to remember those 3rd and forever's were mostly the result of aggressive, man-to-man coverage giving way to sacks and offensive penalties.

    When it gets to 3rd and forever, BB always likes to take a timeout. Then, after the TO, the defense comes out with a prevent and basically drops back to the 1st down marker (20-30 yards downfield). The offense then throws a screen or some route short of the 1st down, dodges a few tacklers in the open field, and gets close to the marker. Obviously, the Saints play was different, but I think that was more of an outlier (good position by Dennard but poorly timed jump beaten by perfect throw).

    At least that's my impression of those plays, and I wish they'd stay aggressive and close out the drive the same way they caused the 3rd and long.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kevin13130. Show kevin13130's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to glenr's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Here we go again with the whining armchair coaches. Lose the 3 best defensive players on the team and survive but still you all whine.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yep. They love doing it.  Any way to whine and complain. They also act like no other quality NFL D gives up a 3rd and long on Sundays.

    It's pretty funny.  Then, when the D makes outstanding plays, no one says a word.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's because we demand perfection, like Brady.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to glenr's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Here we go again with the whining armchair coaches. Lose the 3 best defensive players on the team and survive but still you all whine.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wasn't the point of the post that this happens to all defenses? I think it happened to three teams yesterday. 

    The point is that NFL coaches, for some reason, still make incredibly and illogically conservative calls often times. 

    We are now in an era where it is no longer considered insane to go for it on 4th and more than inches, from behind the fifty ... but everyone runs these odd 'prevent' type plays on 3rd and long. 

    It does not favors for the team and your win probability because you are practically conceding field position. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to tanbass' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    They had everyone too far back, and didn't cover the screen at all. I would be more worried about being able to stop the run moving forward...

    [/QUOTE]

    I would add that there are very few defensive tackles better at sniffing out and blowing up screen passes than Vince Wilfork.  The idea that he has fallen off in one season is silly, he looked great early in the season, and what he does may not always show up on the stat sheet but he cannot be ignored by the players in the trenches and opposing defensive coordinators.

    Sorry but if you think that giving up 479 yards of total offense to Pittsburgh is because of a single missing corner then you're missing the big picture. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    Personally I think that the Pats aren't trying to stop them from getting a first down. They are trying to keep them from scoring a touchdown. How many times on third and forever have we seen the Pats go for it all? They would rather give up the first down than the score. If that isn't the thought process behind why they always give up a first down in that situation then they are just getting hit with a stupid stick as they call that defense.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to 49Patriots' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Enough of this 34 talk, we have 3 DTs and a potential 4th in Armstead, we don't have enough for a 34. The big guys would have to play every snap in a 34 and would wear themselves out.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, but BB doesn't run the same formation all game.  They used 3-4 for part of the game, but used a lot of 4-3 too, as well as a bunch of different sub packages.  It's just one more arrow in the quiver.  

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ccsjl's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Saints game - give up a TD on 3rd and 22, Jets game give up a 3rd and 25 for a first down, and yesterday give up a 3rd and 30 to let Steelers get 1 foot on fourth to convert. What is up with this?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It's how it's coached. On a conservative play like that you are likely in some kind of a '3 deep' or 'Quarters' setup. That means three safeties (or two and a corner) playing deep, or both corners and both safeties. 

    On any down and distance play, you are coached to take your drop a few yards behind the first down marker, in order to set yourself up to follow anything deeper, and also to meet the offensive palyer before he makes it to the marker. You are the last line of defense. 

    The middle group of 3 or 4 players are charged, usually, with either palying some combination of man (for instance in a man-under 3 deep) or playing a zone (most often) at an exact midpoint, or they allow their drops to shadow the WRs. 

    The issue I ahve with this play is it is too conservative for a 3rd and thirty. Because of the nature of the distance, you are essentially conceding 15 yards. Then all the player has to do is make one move to the third level. 

    The issue isn't that the third level will miss their tackles; that is quite rare. The issue is that it gives the other team a chance to establish a very makeable 4th and short or possibly eke out a first down. 

    If this play was run from the Steelers' 5 or 10, I'd partially agree. They ran it from the PIT 29. Even if they only get their conciliatory 15 yards, it has essentially allowed Pittsburgh to reestablish control of the field position battle by bringing them to the PERFECT punting location. 

    I really don't understand this play in a close game, and anywhere near midfield. Personally, in those situations, I've always defaulted to treating it like any regular down. And have even reminded my players before the down, that they should treat it like a 3rd and 10. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Nice post Z.

    why not bring the house on 3rd and 30 and just make the short stuff is covered by the CBS and safeties? Bringing 8 gives Ben no time to set up a downfield pass And most likely results in either a sack or stopping that play well short of 30 yards if the guys were ready for a short dump off because Ben recognized the pressure coming. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Give it time.  They're working on a 3-4 with Sopoaga at NT AND Chr. Jones and Vellano at ends.  Nink and Cha. Jones were more OLBs yesterday.  It's a new scheme, with a new player in the mix, so you have to give it some time, 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Im sorry but weve been doing this going on 4 or 5 years now with the insane 3nd and longs being completed. You wait for that you change, you gonna be old and gray. I think weve waited long enough. I know guys are down but this has happened a bunch in recent years.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    I think rusty nailed it. Bb had them in the wrong formation after the timeout.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    Why do we see an unusual number of 3rd and forevers being made?  IMHO..  it is a mindset the D thinks on that particular play there is no way this team is going to gain more than X yards on a planned play trying to get that first down.  There is a bit of relaxation, putting emphasis on stopping a play before it gets to that first down marker and then, "BANG", the play suddenly explodes and the first down is made.  Almost like a prevent D mentality because the D feels there is too much to make up for in one play etc.. 

    Yes, it is amazing when you think the D was able to not only stop the first two plays, but, a penalty or tackles for losses put the ball way back in "bum-f**k-Egypt" that can't be possibly made up in only one play when every knows the goal of that one play is to get to that 1st down marker!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    3rd and long---how come we need a timeout to figure that one out? Most of the time it's either a draw or a screen? Doesn't that simplify things a bit? When you drop defenders 30 yards off the line of scrimmage and only one guy has an open shot at taking down the receiver before he makes a first down, something is screwy with your defensive strategy. Back to the drawing board on this one, cause these lapses could well be game-changers if they continue.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    Harmon missed the tackle , so I believe BBs call was good

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to tanbass' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    They had everyone too far back, and didn't cover the screen at all. I would be more worried about being able to stop the run moving forward...

    [/QUOTE]

    I would add that there are very few defensive tackles better at sniffing out and blowing up screen passes than Vince Wilfork.  The idea that he has fallen off in one season is silly, he looked great early in the season, and what he does may not always show up on the stat sheet but he cannot be ignored by the players in the trenches and opposing defensive coordinators.

    Sorry but if you think that giving up 479 yards of total offense to Pittsburgh is because of a single missing corner then you're missing the big picture. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I didn't think Vince was playing well when he went down. Not by his standards at least. That said there's no denying he's missed as is TK. However, I don't think their DL is a glaring weakness as some folks seem to think. Of the 480 yards Pitt racked up, only 108 were rushing and 55 of those yards were on two runs. I don't have the breakdown, but I'd bet a decent amount of the total yards were gained when the game was decided.  

    It's just my observation that this defense plays noticeably better when Talib is in the lineup. When Arrington and Cole aren't asked to do things they may not be best suited for. My view is of all the missing pieces, he is the most missed. It's a passing league, most teams are built to pass including all the best AFC teams.    

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I didn't think Vince was playing well when he went down. Not by his standards at least. That said there's no denying he's missed as is TK. However, I don't think their DL is a glaring weakness as some folks seem to think. Of the 480 yards Pitt racked up, only 108 were rushing and 55 of those yards were on two runs. I don't have the breakdown, but I'd bet a decent amount of the total yards were gained when the game was decided.  

    It's just my observation that this defense plays noticeably better when Talib is in the lineup. When Arrington and Cole aren't asked to do things they may not be best suited for. My view is of all the missing pieces, he is the most missed. It's a passing league, most teams are built to pass including all the best AFC teams.    

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry for the long delay in my reply Muzz, been away from the interweb due to work. 

    While I won't knock Talib because I think his presence in the backfield gives us a physicality we've sorely lacked for a long time, I will say that the addition at the same time of Dennard also had a similar impact on the backfield and it seemed like it was all Talib's doing.  He is certainly our 1-A corner with Dennard entrenched at #2.

    That being said, Wilfork and Kelly's absence creates a lot more problems then just rushing yards, the time opposing QB's have had to throw has also been adversely affected, you might say that Jones/Vellano have had a few more sacks but there is no measure of having your own guards and linemen pushed back into your face.  

    Our defensive tackles now are lighter and quicker but they don't collapse a pocket at all, we have to send multiple rushers now which opens up the liability of getting burned by the pass if they don't reach the QB, which I think is proven by the pass yards we're giving up. 

    We're worse on third downs now because we can't rush the passer with four guys and we're worse because we are susceptible to the run on third down, the defense is undoubtedly worse without Wilfork and substantially worse off without both Vince and Kelly.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I didn't think Vince was playing well when he went down. Not by his standards at least. That said there's no denying he's missed as is TK. However, I don't think their DL is a glaring weakness as some folks seem to think. Of the 480 yards Pitt racked up, only 108 were rushing and 55 of those yards were on two runs. I don't have the breakdown, but I'd bet a decent amount of the total yards were gained when the game was decided.  

    It's just my observation that this defense plays noticeably better when Talib is in the lineup. When Arrington and Cole aren't asked to do things they may not be best suited for. My view is of all the missing pieces, he is the most missed. It's a passing league, most teams are built to pass including all the best AFC teams.    

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry for the long delay in my reply Muzz, been away from the interweb due to work. 

    While I won't knock Talib because I think his presence in the backfield gives us a physicality we've sorely lacked for a long time, I will say that the addition at the same time of Dennard also had a similar impact on the backfield and it seemed like it was all Talib's doing.  He is certainly our 1-A corner with Dennard entrenched at #2.

    That being said, Wilfork and Kelly's absence creates a lot more problems then just rushing yards, the time opposing QB's have had to throw has also been adversely affected, you might say that Jones/Vellano have had a few more sacks but there is no measure of having your own guards and linemen pushed back into your face.  

    Our defensive tackles now are lighter and quicker but they don't collapse a pocket at all, we have to send multiple rushers now which opens up the liability of getting burned by the pass if they don't reach the QB, which I think is proven by the pass yards we're giving up. 

    We're worse on third downs now because we can't rush the passer with four guys and we're worse because we are susceptible to the run on third down, the defense is undoubtedly worse without Wilfork and substantially worse off without both Vince and Kelly.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    One thing to add to this, Wozzy, is that Wilfork almost always commands a double team.  He may not have success collapsing the pocket when he's double teamed, but he's not easily controlled even with a double team so he almost always frees up someone else to  rush or cover. One of the big differences I'm seeing with Wilfork out is that the Pats are having to use Spikes more at the LOS.  I know Spikes isn't the best coverage linebacker in the league, but with Wilfork in, he was often patrolling the short middle zone.  Now, with Wilfork out, he's more likely to be attacking the LOS behind Jones and Vellano.  That often forces an end like Nink back into coverage.  So there's a big ripple effect across the defense. Of course, the Pats mix things up a lot, so it's not like you'll see Spikes attacking upfield on every play, but the consistent double team on Wilfork is not there anymore and often Vellano and Jones are getting single blockers, which means a third blocker is is free to pick up the remaining Pats' rushers. 

     

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ...

    [/QUOTE]

    One thing to add to this, Wozzy, is that Wilfork almost always commands a double team.  He may not have success collapsing the pocket when he's double teamed, but he's not easily controlled even with a double team so he almost always frees up someone else to  rush or cover. One of the big differences I'm seeing with Wilfork out is that the Pats are having to use Spikes more at the LOS.  I know Spikes isn't the best coverage linebacker in the league, but with Wilfork in, he was often patrolling the short middle zone.  Now, with Wilfork out, he's more likely to be attacking the LOS behind Jones and Vellano.  That often forces an end like Nink back into coverage.  So there's a big ripple effect across the defense. Of course, the Pats mix things up a lot, so it's not like you'll see Spikes attacking upfield on every play, but the consistent double team on Wilfork is not there anymore and often Vellano and Jones are getting single blockers, which means a third blocker is is free to pick up the remaining Pats' rushers. 

      

    [/QUOTE]


     

    IMO, it's not enough that an NT draws a double team. Offenses going against any NT would not mind putting a double team on the NT (or which ever is the best interior DL) if it means standing him up in a spot where they want him to be -- i.e., where the RB will anticipate him to be. To be successful, the NT needs to be able to dictate where the double team stands him up.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:



    I didn't think Vince was playing well when he went down. Not by his standards at least. That said there's no denying he's missed as is TK. However, I don't think their DL is a glaring weakness as some folks seem to think. Of the 480 yards Pitt racked up, only 108 were rushing and 55 of those yards were on two runs. I don't have the breakdown, but I'd bet a decent amount of the total yards were gained when the game was decided.  

     

    It's just my observation that this defense plays noticeably better when Talib is in the lineup. When Arrington and Cole aren't asked to do things they may not be best suited for. My view is of all the missing pieces, he is the most missed. It's a passing league, most teams are built to pass including all the best AFC teams.    

     



    Sorry for the long delay in my reply Muzz, been away from the interweb due to work. 

     

    While I won't knock Talib because I think his presence in the backfield gives us a physicality we've sorely lacked for a long time, I will say that the addition at the same time of Dennard also had a similar impact on the backfield and it seemed like it was all Talib's doing.  He is certainly our 1-A corner with Dennard entrenched at #2.

    That being said, Wilfork and Kelly's absence creates a lot more problems then just rushing yards, the time opposing QB's have had to throw has also been adversely affected, you might say that Jones/Vellano have had a few more sacks but there is no measure of having your own guards and linemen pushed back into your face.  

    Our defensive tackles now are lighter and quicker but they don't collapse a pocket at all, we have to send multiple rushers now which opens up the liability of getting burned by the pass if they don't reach the QB, which I think is proven by the pass yards we're giving up. 

    We're worse on third downs now because we can't rush the passer with four guys and we're worse because we are susceptible to the run on third down, the defense is undoubtedly worse without Wilfork and substantially worse off without both Vince and Kelly.

     

     



    One thing to add to this, Wozzy, is that Wilfork almost always commands a double team.  He may not have success collapsing the pocket when he's double teamed, but he's not easily controlled even with a double team so he almost always frees up someone else to  rush or cover. One of the big differences I'm seeing with Wilfork out is that the Pats are having to use Spikes more at the LOS.  I know Spikes isn't the best coverage linebacker in the league, but with Wilfork in, he was often patrolling the short middle zone.  Now, with Wilfork out, he's more likely to be attacking the LOS behind Jones and Vellano.  That often forces an end like Nink back into coverage.  So there's a big ripple effect across the defense. Of course, the Pats mix things up a lot, so it's not like you'll see Spikes attacking upfield on every play, but the consistent double team on Wilfork is not there anymore and often Vellano and Jones are getting single blockers, which means a third blocker is is free to pick up the remaining Pats' rushers. 

     

     

     

     

     



    On that particular play this would have been irrelevant.

     

    The first issue it was very soft.

    It was a dime formation. NE rushed with four, but they also had four deep. It started looking like regular zone coverage, but was disguising a really soft zone coverage. The players bailed fast into a quarters arrangement. With no one manning the middle of the field, NE basically conceded the first 15-20 yards to Pittsburgh.

    The next issue is that the softness of the coverage is exacerbated by the fact that it was a screen pass. There were a couple "man" assignments underneath, and Fletcher who was presumtively responsible for Laveon Bell was washed out by the screen. 

    The next major issue is that when Duron Harmon whiffs on the open field tackle at the 45 you final line is exposed. This is when this type of incredibly soft "safe" 3rd and forever coverage fails. If one of the people in the deep region miss, the player is going to make it very close to the first down marker.

    13 or so yards later McCourty slows Bell down enough so that Fletcher can finish his pursuit and stop him inches from a first down. Either way, it's now a makeable first down in PITT territory. 

    Here is a play where NE actually showed something agressive, and then gave PITT something soft. PITT ran a play designed to counter an aggressive defense, and still rattled off the yardage they needed. 

    I suppose we could get on Duron Harmon for another dissapointing open field miss, but the play is the bigger issue. 

    You spend this time thinking what if someone burns us for 30, and you decide to address that by spotting them the first 15. 

    I just don't get it, and every team does this. 

    If coaches treated defense like they do offense, daring to gamble, a lot or problematic outcomes like we see in that 1st quarter play would be eradicated. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    Yeah, the third and forever play was different as would be most plays in a pass-focused sub type defense.  I'm talking more about what I'm seeing in "base" formations (knowing full well that BB varies his so-called base formations a lot too). 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ...

    [/QUOTE]

    One thing to add to this, Wozzy, is that Wilfork almost always commands a double team.  He may not have success collapsing the pocket when he's double teamed, but he's not easily controlled even with a double team so he almost always frees up someone else to  rush or cover. One of the big differences I'm seeing with Wilfork out is that the Pats are having to use Spikes more at the LOS.  I know Spikes isn't the best coverage linebacker in the league, but with Wilfork in, he was often patrolling the short middle zone.  Now, with Wilfork out, he's more likely to be attacking the LOS behind Jones and Vellano.  That often forces an end like Nink back into coverage.  So there's a big ripple effect across the defense. Of course, the Pats mix things up a lot, so it's not like you'll see Spikes attacking upfield on every play, but the consistent double team on Wilfork is not there anymore and often Vellano and Jones are getting single blockers, which means a third blocker is is free to pick up the remaining Pats' rushers. 

      

    [/QUOTE]


     

    IMO, it's not enough that an NT draws a double team. Offenses going against any NT would not mind putting a double team on the NT (or which ever is the best interior DL) if it means standing him up in a spot where they want him to be -- i.e., where the RB will anticipate him to be. To be successful, the NT needs to be able to dictate where the double team stands him up.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, Vince is particularly effective moving his men to either side, which I think is what you're getting at.  When Jones is double teamed, he's usually being driven backwards.  Wilfork holds his ground and also can move the blockers sideways. He doesn't always drive them far into the backfield, but he's almost certain to use leverage to move them sideways and not get driven backwards much. 

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    This is actually a slight misconception too. 

    NTs, even the best, aren't tasked with controlling two men.

    They are tasked with controlling two gaps. 

    The offense decides if they want to devote two men to the defender. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Wy cant D stop a 3rd and forever?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Yeah, the third and forever play was different as would be most plays in a pass-focused sub type defense.  I'm talking more about what I'm seeing in "base" formations (knowing full well that BB varies his so-called base formations a lot too). 

     



    The loss in base formation is certain. NE can't conrol the run. 

    I'm highly skeptical that NE has lost much in terms of naked pass rush. 

    Vince doesn't command a double team on most passing plays. Even when he was healthy. He just doesn't have that speed. 

    They've lost whatever pass rush he gave them over what Sopoaga or another alternative gives them. It is something ... but not a lot .. in my opinion of course. 

     
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