"Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Bullpen has been overused.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Dave, agree 100%
    The other thing that's happened since Spahn's time is, the drag time between pitches.
    Coupled with the batter stepping out after every pitch, to walk around.
    This lengthens the game, and makes it boring to watch.
    So does changing multiple pitchers an inning.
    If MLB was wise, they'd put in some hard rules on a time to deliver a pitch, and batters not leaving the box, unless it's an emergency, or a broken bat.
    Broken bats. Another thing rarely seen then. MLB hasn't done a thinng to prevent injuries from these maple bats. which explode on imact.
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    I would like to bring up a couple of things that never get mentioned when people talk about pitch counts and the babying of pitchers. 
    First, the mound was 5" higher before 1969 (there are some reports that the Dodgers' mound was even higher).  So, there is a lot more strain on the pitcher as they are not throwing as much on the downslope. 
    Second, MLB used to use about 60-70 baseballs during a game.  A ball could easily be used for an entire inning.  Nowadays they toss out a ball when it touches the dirt.  They use about 150 balls a game.  A new ball travels further and doesn't move as much as a scuffed ball (in the hands of a pitcher that knows how to use it).  This leads to pitcher's nibbling more, not trusting throwing down the middle, thus increasing their pitch counts.
    I looked up the game logs for Spahn in 1963, as was brought up.  Now, they don't have the pitch counts in all the games, and the 15 1/3 inning game does not have his pitch count.  But in the games they do, the highest is 117.  They averaged a tad higher than 3 pitches per batter faced.  And if you look, Spahn made one more start after that high IP game, but then was out for 18 days, pitched two more games, then missed another 16 days.  Yes, some of that was the AS break, but not that much.  It would appear he missed starts due to an injury.  And, they got to face a pitcher and and usually a weak hitting SS and/or 2B.  The game has changed in many ways.  You cannot compare today's game to the 60's and before.  Even the 70's were different.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Ball Four and Bronx Zoo are the funniest baseball books of all time!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Yaz took amphetamines too. It's always been something to take for guys going back years and years. Today you get tested so it's tough.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Bottom line, Spahn had TWENTY TWO COMPLETE GAMES at age 42.
    End of story.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    Bottom line, Spahn had TWENTY TWO COMPLETE GAMES at age 42. End of story.
    Posted by rightymclefty


    Pitching on a mound that was 5" higher, not facing a DH, generally facing weak hitting middle infielders, and still seemingly (because we do not have all the data) less than 120 pitches per game.  So, a different story alltogether.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Wow, guess I killed off the discussion with some facts.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    Wow, guess I killed off the discussion with some facts.
    Posted by fizsh


    Your facts were good.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fenwayjimy. Show Fenwayjimy's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    I wonder how many parks back then allowed fans to sit with white shirts on in straightaway CF that impeded the sight of the batter. At Fenway they now close that section off in the triangle of the bleachers in CF for day games.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    I would like to bring up a couple of things that never get mentioned when people talk about pitch counts and the babying of pitchers.  First, the mound was 5" higher before 1969 (there are some reports that the Dodgers' mound was even higher).  So, there is a lot more strain on the pitcher as they are not throwing as much on the downslope.  Second, MLB used to use about 60-70 baseballs during a game.  A ball could easily be used for an entire inning.  Nowadays they toss out a ball when it touches the dirt.  They use about 150 balls a game.  A new ball travels further and doesn't move as much as a scuffed ball (in the hands of a pitcher that knows how to use it).  This leads to pitcher's nibbling more, not trusting throwing down the middle, thus increasing their pitch counts. I looked up the game logs for Spahn in 1963, as was brought up.  Now, they don't have the pitch counts in all the games, and the 15 1/3 inning game does not have his pitch count.  But in the games they do, the highest is 117.  They averaged a tad higher than 3 pitches per batter faced.  And if you look, Spahn made one more start after that high IP game, but then was out for 18 days, pitched two more games, then missed another 16 days.  Yes, some of that was the AS break, but not that much.  It would appear he missed starts due to an injury.  And, they got to face a pitcher and and usually a weak hitting SS and/or 2B.  The game has changed in many ways.  You cannot compare today's game to the 60's and before.  Even the 70's were different.
    Posted by fizsh

    Good Reminders

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Part of the problem is that kids start throwing curve balls in little league and by the time they get to college, they have a lot of wear and tear on the arm.  Notice that most of the TJ surgery is occuring on young pitchers with 95mph fast balls who can snap off a curve that is unhittable. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    I was listening to the radio yesterday and heard Nick Cafardo on. Let me be fair and point out a few things that seemed obvious: 1) He's firmly in Valentine's corner in all of this. ALL of it. 2) He doesn't have a whole lot of respect for management/ownership. That aside, he went on to talk about Andrew Bailey.  Cafardo commented on the insaleny slow rehab schedules, his words, "One day a guy is throwing from 30 feet, a week later it's 35." I'm sure there was some sarcasm, but at any rate he led that into a conversation he had with Andrew Bailey. He asked Bailey if he could possibly speed up the recovrey time, and Bailey said he'd like to, but there is a very specific schedule and sequnce he has to follow. He has to do 'A' before 'B'. Then 'B' before he can do 'C'. Any type of hiccup results in moving BACK a step. Cafardo then comments that he went on to say, "Well, good luck, try not to slip on any banana peels while you're rehabbing." Pretty funny. This goes along with an issue I've had before: All these absurd pitch and inning limitations they put on players throughout their system, and at the major league level in ST. First of all, I UNDERSTAND the investment in these guys and the fear of blowing them out early as I've seen teams do. But they've gone way to fay to the other end of the spectrum. They are breeding guys with a mental pitch ticker. I remember a few years ago lester coming out of a game after 7 innings and about 100 pitches. Mentally, he checked out, figuring that was it. Tito wanted him to go another inning, and had to scramble to get someone ready. I see little evidence of these guys being able to "gut" anything out. When thigs start going bad, they go worse, later in games they show little evidence of being able to "reach down for something extra". Any star pitcher we may have in the minors...we'll find out eventually. But they'll get here a year after they should, and only be able to throw a certain amount of innings. This isn't a lesser team who brings a 20 year old from the draft to the majors. I could understand strict monitoring then. I long for a guy like Nolan Ryan who obviously gets it. HE turned that staff, and organization, around with regards to pitching. It coincides with HIM. Some of the same pitcher's got measurably better after he arrived. His #1 philosophy is to push these guys, NOT baby them. Now go look at the staffs of Boston and Texas over the past few years. Embarrassing. Computers can NOT run a baseball team! There is a HUMAN ELEMENT! This is a rotting fish...where's that stink coming from?
    Posted by ma6dragon9


    I haven't read through the responses yet, but all I can say is GREAT post.

    I think these guys are over-training.  I wonder how many hours Mickey Lolich spent in the weight room? 

    Also, I wonder if HGH is a factor.  It'll be interesting to see if injuries decrease when more HGH testing is done.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    Part of the problem is that kids start throwing curve balls in little league and by the time they get to college, they have a lot of wear and tear on the arm.  Notice that most of the TJ surgery is occuring on young pitchers with 95mph fast balls who can snap off a curve that is unhittable. 
    Posted by traven


    There is also a school of thought that it is the college coaches that are using up the pitchers, feeling that 3-4 years from now isn't their problem.  I don't know how true that is, or if there is any data to show that college kids are more susceptible to injuries than high school kids that come up through the system. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    The Red Sox FO has been acting like the corporation that it is. It has put spy eyes and ears into the clubhouse to keep an eye on the grunts, it has analyzed stats to the point that it overrides common sense nearly every time, and they have raised prices on its product. Also when it wants to fire or release an important employee from service (see Tito) it leaks dirt out to the media so as to protect the product.  Booooooooo!
    Posted by EnchiladaT


    Good points, Buritto...typical corporate structure with squeelers, cry-babies, moles, and sycophants(brown-nosers).
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    There you go critics...Buchhloz pitching beautifully but out he comes at 103 pitches.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    I call BS on Nolan Ryan.  The Rangers starters are on pitch counts like everyone else.  Check the game logs and see.  120 pitches is the ceiling.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Last year, the league averaged 6.06 IP/GS and 5.92 this year..  TX averaged 6.14 each year.  That's about .14 over two years.  With about 16 PC/IP, that is about an extra 2 pitches per game per start.

    And the majority of that has to do with having an above-average rotation.  It stands to reason that a worse starter gets knocked earlier.

    In other words, there is nothing here to watch.  Time to move on.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    There you go critics...Buchhloz pitching beautifully but out he comes at 103 pitches.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Not saying he should have come out, in fact, I would have kept him in until he let a man on.  Figure if he goes 1-2-3 he would still be under 120 pitches.  I am just saying people who compare pitchers IP of today with the 60's and before are not realizing how much the game has changed.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    In response to "Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome": Jim I understand the arms strength thing but I believe TJ surgery is ligament replacement. I am not a doctor but not sure you can strengthen a ligament.
    Posted by Mchampion


    True but it is about repetion. Building up arm strength helps keep ligaments/tendons from having issues. Not that muscle alone or repetition will ever stop ruptures or tears but it does help. When I had a scope on my knee the DR stated building up my leg would help the looseness of the tendon and ligaments used by my knee.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    I would like to bring up a couple of things that never get mentioned when people talk about pitch counts and the babying of pitchers.  First, the mound was 5" higher before 1969 (there are some reports that the Dodgers' mound was even higher).  So, there is a lot more strain on the pitcher as they are not throwing as much on the downslope.  Second, MLB used to use about 60-70 baseballs during a game.  A ball could easily be used for an entire inning.  Nowadays they toss out a ball when it touches the dirt.  They use about 150 balls a game.  A new ball travels further and doesn't move as much as a scuffed ball (in the hands of a pitcher that knows how to use it).  This leads to pitcher's nibbling more, not trusting throwing down the middle, thus increasing their pitch counts. I looked up the game logs for Spahn in 1963, as was brought up.  Now, they don't have the pitch counts in all the games, and the 15 1/3 inning game does not have his pitch count.  But in the games they do, the highest is 117.  They averaged a tad higher than 3 pitches per batter faced.  And if you look, Spahn made one more start after that high IP game, but then was out for 18 days, pitched two more games, then missed another 16 days.  Yes, some of that was the AS break, but not that much.  It would appear he missed starts due to an injury.  And, they got to face a pitcher and and usually a weak hitting SS and/or 2B.  The game has changed in many ways.  You cannot compare today's game to the 60's and before.  Even the 70's were different.
    Posted by fizsh


    Excellent points!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    fiizch,
    If you take a look at 1961 hitting stats, you'll see that guys like Maris, Colaviito, Gentile,Cash and a host of others had career years, in a season that went unmatched until the McGwire-Sosa year in the steroid era.
    The pitchers still pitched from their higher mounds and threw scuffed baseballs in 1961.
    The late 50's an early 60's saw the emergence of great hitters and sluggers like Frank Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Rocky Colavito, Boog Powell, Brooks Robinson, Willie Stargell, Harmon Killebrew, Frank Howard, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Tony Oliva and a host of others.
    So scuffed balls, high mounds and other factors, never stopped their greatness.
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    fiizch, If you take a look at 1961 hitting stats, you'll see that guys like Maris, Colaviito, Gentile,Cash and a host of others had career years, in a season that went unmatched until the McGwire-Sosa year in the steroid era. The pitchers still pitched from their higher mounds and threw scuffed baseballs in 1961. The late 50's an early 60's saw the emergence of great hitters and sluggers like Frank Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Rocky Colavito, Boog Powell, Brooks Robinson, Willie Stargell, Harmon Killebrew, Frank Howard, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Tony Oliva and a host of others. So scuffed balls, high mounds and other factors, never stopped their greatness.
    Posted by rightymclefty


    There will always be great hitters.  But as far as 1961 goes, that was an expansion year.  A lot of inexperienced and end of the line pitchers were now in the majors.  So guys like Maris, Mantle, Jim Gentile had great years.  1962 was an expansion year as well.  But you are right, there was an offensive explosion during those years. And even after the lowering of the mound (rpg had dropped to 3.4 in 1968), though the rpg improved to as high as 4.34 in 1970, it dropped again until 1973 when the DH was added to the AL. 

    I wish there were better data on pitches per game back then.  Because from what little evidence that I have seen, the top pitchers were still around the 120 pitch mark. One of the main reasons they were able to keep pitch counts down and go deeper into ballgames was there were fewer Ks and Ws per game on average.

    But again, it is the combination of all the things that I mentioned that has caused pitchers to not go deeper into games, to be babied more for other reasons.  Of course as was mentioned, the high salaries are another reason players are babied.  There is a larger investment in the players.  Back before free agency, players were treated like machinery, use them up and then get another to replace them. You read Ball Four, you know how that worked. But I just think the game has changed so much since back then that it is hard to compare the two.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Thanks, Fizch, for a nice reasonable discussion.
    It's been a pleasure exchanging ideas, without
    it disintegrating into name calling and put downs.
     
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