"Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    I was listening to the radio yesterday and heard Nick Cafardo on. Let me be fair and point out a few things that seemed obvious:

    1) He's firmly in Valentine's corner in all of this. ALL of it.

    2) He doesn't have a whole lot of respect for management/ownership.

    That aside, he went on to talk about Andrew Bailey.  Cafardo commented on the insaleny slow rehab schedules, his words, "One day a guy is throwing from 30 feet, a week later it's 35." I'm sure there was some sarcasm, but at any rate he led that into a conversation he had with Andrew Bailey.

    He asked Bailey if he could possibly speed up the recovrey time, and Bailey said he'd like to, but there is a very specific schedule and sequnce he has to follow. He has to do 'A' before 'B'. Then 'B' before he can do 'C'. Any type of hiccup results in moving BACK a step. Cafardo then comments that he went on to say, "Well, good luck, try not to slip on any banana peels while you're rehabbing." Pretty funny.

    This goes along with an issue I've had before: All these absurd pitch and inning limitations they put on players throughout their system, and at the major league level in ST.

    First of all, I UNDERSTAND the investment in these guys and the fear of blowing them out early as I've seen teams do. But they've gone way to fay to the other end of the spectrum.

    They are breeding guys with a mental pitch ticker. I remember a few years ago lester coming out of a game after 7 innings and about 100 pitches. Mentally, he checked out, figuring that was it. Tito wanted him to go another inning, and had to scramble to get someone ready. I see little evidence of these guys being able to "gut" anything out. When thigs start going bad, they go worse, later in games they show little evidence of being able to "reach down for something extra".

    Any star pitcher we may have in the minors...we'll find out eventually. But they'll get here a year after they should, and only be able to throw a certain amount of innings.

    This isn't a lesser team who brings a 20 year old from the draft to the majors. I could understand strict monitoring then.

    I long for a guy like Nolan Ryan who obviously gets it. HE turned that staff, and organization, around with regards to pitching. It coincides with HIM. Some of the same pitcher's got measurably better after he arrived. His #1 philosophy is to push these guys, NOT baby them. Now go look at the staffs of Boston and Texas over the past few years.

    Embarrassing.

    Computers can NOT run a baseball team! There is a HUMAN ELEMENT!

    This is a rotting fish...where's that stink coming from?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Good Post! I always wondered when and where the 100 pitch count came from. It must have snuck by me when i was not looking. I would go one step further in the Sox case. Where does it state that a guy has to play every step of the minors to get to the majors? Example " Bradley at 22 may already be ready for the majors" yes they have fast tracked him, but still...... Maybe a better place to learn is at the top level when you have great talent as a player.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome



    The Rangers are experiencing some arm problems this season that may keep them out of the playoffs.

    Colby Lewis and either Feliz or Ogando are into TJS resulting in the pick ups of Dempster and the other vet now having back issues?

    I agree we baby our guys---someone like Barnes, I would like a faster ascent to Boston, but the plan is it will be two more years.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Those Ranger arm problems are honestly no worse than any other team. Feliz has been all over the place during his transition and that one really doesn't surprise me.

    Lackey went in for TJS after going over his medicals, imposing all these restrictions, and handing him a fortune.

    Barnes and JBJ are good examples. SOmetimes you need higher competition to continue raising your level. If they aren't pushed, that can "plateau" against lesser opponents.

    I don't get NOT bringing them up early. If JBJ is given a shot, at 23 (?), to me a mojor leaguer, and isn't quite ready...is that really going to crush him? If so, what kind of research do they do before drafting someone because that seems very mentally fragile. On the other side, what if he come sup here, starts hitting .300+ and never looks back? Same for Barnes. I EXPECT young players to have struggles, it's ok. They try to insulate these guys from any controversy or potential struggle...and then we are all surprised at how this team has shown propensity to fold like a lawn chair the past few years? That's how they've been trained.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    I do not disagree with your premise. However you need to go deeper. Back when you had more pitchers going 200+ innings they had been playing baseball their whole life. Guys like Ryan, the Perrys, any guy before the 90s was throwing a baseball all day every day. Why ...it was because there were not all the other sports to be played.
    I'm not making this up as I saw it on a talk show made up of current and older players/coaches.
    I remember playing baseball from sunrise to sunset eveyday when the weather allowed back in Lowell MA.
    That no longer happens with all the organized leagues and restrictions. In little league we had one pitcher and that is all he did. Any one else that pitched played another position. That one kid pitched 2/3 of our games. That does not happen today since they have restrictions on how many innings as well as type of pitches.
    Even HS players play other sports and not baseball all year
    So it is not just what teams do now...it is also about how things have changed and how the need to build strength in a pitchers arm.  BTW TJ surgery is up because pitchers do not have the strength from throwing more as a kid for one reason.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In response to "Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome": [QUOTE]I do not disagree with your premise. However you need to go deeper. Back when you had more pitchers going 200+ innings they had been playing baseball their whole life. Guys like Ryan, the Perrys, any guy before the 90s was throwing a baseball all day every day. Why ...it was because there were not all the other sports to be played. I'm not making this up as I saw it on a talk show made up of current and older players/coaches. I remember playing baseball from sunrise to sunset eveyday when the weather allowed back in Lowell MA. That no longer happens with all the organized leagues and restrictions. In little league we had one pitcher and that is all he did. Any one else that pitched played another position. That one kid pitched 2/3 of our games. That does not happen today since they have restrictions on how many innings as well as type of pitches. Even HS players play other sports and not baseball all year So it is not just what teams do now...it is also about how things have changed and how the need to build strength in a pitchers arm.  BTW TJ surgery is up because pitchers do not have the strength from throwing more as a kid for one reason. Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE] Jim I understand the arms strength thing but I believe TJ surgery is ligament replacement. I am not a doctor but not sure you can strengthen a ligament.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    [QUOTE]I do not disagree with your premise. However you need to go deeper. Back when you had more pitchers going 200+ innings they had been playing baseball their whole life. Guys like Ryan, the Perrys, any guy before the 90s was throwing a baseball all day every day. Why ...it was because there were not all the other sports to be played. I'm not making this up as I saw it on a talk show made up of current and older players/coaches. I remember playing baseball from sunrise to sunset eveyday when the weather allowed back in Lowell MA. That no longer happens with all the organized leagues and restrictions. In little league we had one pitcher and that is all he did. Any one else that pitched played another position. That one kid pitched 2/3 of our games. That does not happen today since they have restrictions on how many innings as well as type of pitches. Even HS players play other sports and not baseball all year So it is not just what teams do now...it is also about how things have changed and how the need to build strength in a pitchers arm.  BTW TJ surgery is up because pitchers do not have the strength from throwing more as a kid for one reason.
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]

    Good post Jim, I remember growing up in Salisbury MA and we played ball from sun up till sun down. I honestly believe our arms got stronger by thowing more (ALA Dice-K), he went to crap when the sox put the pitch count on.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    The Red Sox FO has been acting like the corporation that it is. It has put spy eyes and ears into the clubhouse to keep an eye on the grunts, it has analyzed stats to the point that it overrides common sense nearly every time, and they have raised prices on its product.

    Also when it wants to fire or release an important employee from service (see Tito) it leaks dirt out to the media so as to protect the product. 

    Booooooooo!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    I call BS on Nolan Ryan.  The Rangers starters are on pitch counts like everyone else.  Check the game logs and see.  120 pitches is the ceiling.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    [QUOTE]I call BS on Nolan Ryan.  The Rangers starters are on pitch counts like everyone else.  Check the game logs and see.  120 pitches is the ceiling.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    I  dont like pitch counts, but 120  should give you 2 more innings than 100. which means from 5-6 innings you go to 7-8
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    [QUOTE]I call BS on Nolan Ryan.  The Rangers starters are on pitch counts like everyone else.  Check the game logs and see.  120 pitches is the ceiling.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]


    As apposed to 100 max by the Sox, who even when a starter is whooping some azz at 100 pitches they pull him and put in some cold useless middle reliever?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome : As apposed to 100 max by the Sox, who even when a starter is whooping some azz at 100 pitches they pull him and put in some cold useless middle reliever?
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]

    We only have one starter whooping azz lately, that's Buchholz.  His last 3 starts he's thrown 107, 105, 108 pitches.  I'd say the celing is 110 pitches.

    The Rangers are not pushing their starters any further than other teams are.  They rarely leave their starters for 120 pitches.  It's all there in the game logs.

    About the only pitcher in baseball who gets left in past 120 pitches is Verlander.  
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    120 Pitches is reasonable. I've seen Sox starters sit after 100 and 5/6 innings. That's not acceptable when it's the norm.

    The kids thing is interesting. I wonder. On the one hand, I imagine throwing all day, lots of days probably helps. I too, did that...and had a torn rotator cuff in my mid 20's. On the other hand, are TJS up because there are more injuries? Or, are JTS up because the surgery has gotten to the point where people get it BEFORE a total tear? Probably a little of both.

    Another angle of the kids/TJS thing. When I was growing up in the late 80s and early 90s, kids starting throwing a lot of "junk". I remember at THAT time adults being disgusted by this, well aware of the damamge they were causing and the future trouble they'de have. Interestingly, ESPN now highlights these 13 year old curves during the LLWS and puts a positive light on it as the kid's shoulder is disintigrating.

    "Workhorse" pitchers do exist. They ARE definitely more rare these days, and that's definitely more than a Red Sox issue, but I wonder if they couldn't help overcome it. The brain is a powerful, underutilized tool. It's amazing what we can convince ourselves we can do regularly. The Army takes regular old 18 year olds, and turns them into people that can do 30 mile hikes with 50lbs packs. It is definitely the physical training, but the mental aspect is AT LEAST 50% and few seem to realize that.

    Rodney Harrison broke his arm in a Super Bowl, stayed on the field, and made the following tackle. How many people can even sustain a broken arm and not fall to the ground in pain? Pedroia pushes himself and plays through injuries to his detriment. Pitchers need to learn how to push themselves, and not accept that they are tired, or a certain number is the end of their night. Instead they have YEARS if "only this many pitches...only this many innings....only this many throws..." how would anyone expect any different at this point? Tell a coworker he looks sick all day, keep asking him what's wrong, commenting he looks pale, and watch, by the end of the day, as that guy is, quite literally, sick. Brainpower, USE IT!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Believe me I know I was grasping for straws saying we had some "whooping azz" starters lol.  20 additional pitches make a heck of a difference and since 2007 the Sox have pulled pitchers regardless of performance the second they hit that 100th pitch.

    And besides nobody is saying the Rangers are pushing 120 pitches regularly but they do let them throw that 105th or 112th pitch because their max is higher.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    In Response to Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome:
    [QUOTE]Believe me I know I was grasping for straws saying we had some "whooping azz" starters lol.  20 additional pitches make a heck of a difference and since 2007 the Sox have pulled pitchers regardless of performance the second they hit that 100th pitch. And besides nobody is saying the Rangers are pushing 120 pitches regularly but they do let them throw that 105th or 112th pitch because their max is higher.
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]

    Agree.  There are also different types of 100-120 pitch games.  One is where you're out of the windup constantly, your team has put some runs on the board and everything is in a groove.  The other is when you in trouble constantly (in the stretch a lot), your team hasn't scored, and every pitch is a grind.  Pitchers can easily go 120 in the  former situation; the latter is a lot tougher physically and mentally.

    And it seemed like back in the day, 120 would often get you 8-9 innings.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome




    Yes!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    OK Enchilada, just for you buddy:

    2012 pitch counts of 120 or more:

    Boston
    Lester 2
    Beckett 1
    Buchholz 1
    Total 4

    Texas
    Darvish 2
    Harrison 1
    Lewis 1
    Total 4

    As I say, Ryan is full of BS.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    The babying of the pitchers is a microcosm of society in general these days.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    pitch counts are here to stay....but the babying of pitchers is true as well...welcome to the boston red sox organization - home to the 26 year old rookies...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    Warren Spahn at age 42, had 26 complete games, and 23 wins and a 2.60 ERA!
    He pitched a 16 inning shutout, before losing to Juan Marichal.
    Again, at age 42. He was 6' 182 lbs.
    So, all these pitch counts and coddling of pitchers, flies in the face of the success pithcers had, before it was determined that they were so breakable.
    Now, someone can lead the world in complete games, with a mere handful of them.
    I'm sure lessening the emphisis on the pitchcount would devistate Don "Mr. Pitchcount" Orsillo, who mentions it dozens of times a game, and fully believes the pitcfher's arm will fall off if he goes over 100 pitches.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    The pus-s-if-i-cation of babying players through rehab is a curse to professional sports.
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: "Protection" (babying) of pitchers getting awfully tiresome

    dave, I miss even 1980s baseball. It's become really bad, everything and especially young guys getting hurt more and more often and taking longer and longer to rehab. It's scary. The steroid generation had it easy--they came back super strong or it took a few days to get over an injury. Bring back the Roids!!!!
     
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