2012 Options

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    Softy thinks only King Felix is worthy of our pursuit. He's too lazy to look around and see that there are some up and coming young starters out there that are worth taking a chance on. Maybe Brett will not become great, but he has, padong the "cliche", a h3ll of a lot of "upside", and he will cost much less than Felix. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    King Felix is a worthy target, but a very unlikely one.  And Seattle won't hand him over for some Ellsbury-based package, because that makes no sense for them at all for numerous reasons...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    notin, you have a good hand on the pulse of the rest of MLB. Give me a list of your top 10 best young starters (maybe 26 or younger). Thanks.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    Moonshwemp and Notin, every season, along with Cherry and InEpstein, start whining about "no quality arms for the Red Sox but quality arms on various other teams". 

    ...and every year we complained about lack of quality pitching, we missed  the playoffs.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to TrotterNixon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    notin, you have a good hand on the pulse of the rest of MLB. Give me a list of your top 10 best young starters

    Get back with me when teams that have young pitchers in current good form are going to look to trade them, unless they are going to be expensive FA. And if they are going to be expensive FA, only a fool would pay the market price unless they are truly an established young superstar.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'll "get bac k to you" now.

    Last year, I mentioned trading for Cuerto. You called him a "bum".


    Last year, I mentioned that we should have traded Reddick and sweetened the pot to get Gio Gonzalez instead of Bailey and Sweeney. (And, yes, Gio was traded). You called gio a "bum".

    Young starters are traded every year. Some work out- some don't.

    Our farm system does not have many top quality starting pitcher prospects. Your plan is to change management, then wait for their draft picks to develop in 4-6 years. Spend $1M a year on a few journeymen and stink for a half decade. While that is a valid plan, I'd rather not wait that long, and be proactive in the mean time until those kids are ready, and go out and get a couple young arms this winter. If we end up with too many good starters, there are many options for that.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    notin, you have a good hand on the pulse of the rest of MLB. Give me a list of your top 10 best young starters (maybe 26 or younger). Thanks.




    My thoughts in the 10 best young SPs (no closers).

     

    1.Felix Hernandez

    2.Clayton Kershaw

    3.Stephen Strasburg

    4.Johnny Cueto

    5.Madison Bumgarner

    6.Jordan Zimmermann

    7.Matt Moore

    8.Chris Sale

    9.Jeremy Hellickson

    10.Mat Latos

     

     

    I do think there is a big drop off after Zimmermann, and the last four can be put in any order. I am also penalizing Sale a bit for his lack of experience as a starter. I wouldn’t argue if anyone thought he should be #7.

     

    A lot of players like Price and Harrison just exceeded this list age requirements, which I slightly modified to “born in 1986 or later.” And there are a couple of borderline cases like Pineda, Parker, Anderson and De La Rosa that might have made the list, but had TJ surgery very early on and have limited time and unknown futures.

     

    One other name I left off because he has been fairly mediocre as a pitcher is Rick Porcello. However, I think most people forget how young he is (he turns 24 in December), and how accomplished he is at that age. He is finishing his fourth season in MLB, meanwhile the Mariners have 3 boasted pitching prospects with 0 combined games, and Paxton is older than Porcello, while Hultzen is less than a year younger. There is no reason to think that Porcello cannot improve and become a very good pitcher at some point…

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    Thanks, notin.

    I can't see any of those 10 guys getting dealt for several top prospects.



    I think Brett Anderson might be the most accessable young starter via trade, but he will still be costly.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    The problem the Sox face is their lack of good prospect talent in the minors sufficient to entice other teams to let go of proven SP...for a good look at that lack of talent...see current Sox team which is composed of mostly prospects from AAA.  FA market is what got the Sox in trouble to begin with and unless something of impressive vision has invaded the Sox FO, one has to wonder at their ability to evaluate talent at any level.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Thanks, notin.

    I can't see any of those 10 guys getting dealt for several top prospects.



    I think Brett Anderson might be the most accessable young starter via trade, but he will still be costly.



    Latos was dealt last offseason for a package that included Yasmani Grandal and Yonder Alonso.


    None of the others have even been traded.  In the seond/injuryu tier, everyone has.   Parker was dealt as the centerpiece for intentionally omitted Trevor Cahill.  Anderson was dealt once before as part of a package for Dan Haren.  Pineda was traded for Jesus montero, who was BA#3.  and Rubby DLR just last month.

    Andesron won't c 
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    "I can only make so many anti-Valentine posts"

    Quitting? You were doing so well too. You and Danny boy were on track to 10,000 whining about BV.
    Throw in JB and that completes the three. Larry, Moe, and Curly!



    No, I am completely advocating for BV to finish the year out.

    1-Serves as a distraction for the media.
    2-Every day gets us one step closer to overall worst record.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    Since Bucholz, I can think of only 3 players that Theo drafted, that have made the Majors. Masterson, Doubront, Kelly. 

    I'm not sure what that means.  Buchholz was 2005.  It is impractical to expect major league players from maybe the 2009 draft on.  So that's 3 starters in 4 years.  That's an exceptional rate.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Thanks, notin.

    I can't see any of those 10 guys getting dealt for several top prospects.



    I think Brett Anderson might be the most accessable young starter via trade, but he will still be costly.



    Latos was dealt last offseason for a package that included Yasmani Grandal and Yonder Alonso.


    None of the others have even been traded.  In the seond/injuryu tier, everyone has.   Parker was dealt as the centerpiece for intentionally omitted Trevor Cahill.  Anderson was dealt once before as part of a package for Dan Haren.  Pineda was traded for Jesus montero, who was BA#3.  and Rubby DLR just last month.

    Andesron won't c 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess what I meant was that I don't see being able to get any of your top 10 young starters in a situation where their team is willing to part with them for some of our top prospects. They'd have to be blown away with an offer to part with them.

    Your second tier is much more attainable, but of course are less of a sure bet.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    bump past the idiot
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    If we end up with too many good starters,


    <Bust of Laughter>  You wanted Wakefield as one of the 2012 starters. You will respond by saying "he was just a #6 or #9 starter, which means the bum wasted an active roster spot like he did for years. Wakefield out of the pen was one of the most incompetent management moves in history, just behind offering him one year contracts to sit on the bench, eat and wait for some starter to go down. 

    But forget that, let's get back to how absurd your comment is.

    There's no way you can be a credible lawyer with your poor reading comprehension skills, and basic lack of fundemental logic.


    Lester and Buchholz are staying, even though, de facto, you have stated that they are part of a terrible pitching staff. But, go ahead and name the specific replacements, or don't make any comment about them for 2013.


    I have named several specific names for a #1-3 slot starter. You are either blind or a troll. If we get a number 1, then Lester and Buch as 2-3 slot starters are fine with me. I've never said replace eother of these two. I just said they are not legitimate #1s.

     

    That gets to the 3rd depth chart starting pitcher. Lackey is one of those guys you siad "you have to pay the market" for. Thus, I doubt you are now going to say write him off by giving away another player with decent trade value. 


    Repeating lies in a Rovian manner does not make it true. I never even mentioned Lackey before he was signed, since I thought he'd get 4100M somewhere. When he did sign here, I agreed with you that it was the best we could do, but was still an overpay. Get off your high horse. You supported the signing once you found out about the injury clause option.


    That gets us to #4 on the depth chart of SP. You frequently claimed that Wakefield was a good #4 or #5 starter, so you must be delighted with Doubrant. If not, that means you are seeking another starter from the greener grasses of other teams.


    You still have yet to ever get my position ion Wake right. You keep arguing with a starwman. Just because I showed that Wake had better numbers than several team's #4's, 5's or even 3's, does not mean I thought he was a good #4 starter. I said he was a good #6 starter who should not go more than 140 IP.
    You know it, and you lie.
    You don't know it, and it proves you can read
    .
    Either way, you have serious issues and an obessession with relating everything to our back up catcher and 6th starter from a year ago.

    Building or rebuilding a staff from the 4th or 5th starter down will never improve this club. We have enough 4-6 starters already.



    Ditto on #5.

    So, you have admitted that there isn't any chance that Felix and the great sage Notin's list of the top starting pitchers from other teams is nothing but a trade pipe dream.


    No, we could get him, but the offer would be too much. Please, try to keep up.


    I've put down Anderson as filling one of the two SP slots for 2013. But so that you stop pipe dreaming, you need to provide specifically what current roster players and farm players will be in the pool of players so that you can actually close the deal.


    Dude, please READ. I gave the specific deal...no pool...specific names. LEARN HOW TO READ!

    I also mentioned last year trading for Gio Gonzalez and Cuerto. You called them bums who would get eaten alive in the AL east. To be fair, I also mentioned Gavin Floyd and Wandy R. who did not have great seasons, but were better than Bard and would have kept him and Aceves where they belonged.

    You are left with the "not a sure bet" as your #5 depth chart SP. But  I assume you are going to trade to get one of the 2nd tier  "not a sure bet" bums that you claim weren't bums that were traded and pitched for other teams in 2012.  Provide the list of the pool of those players and what you are going to trade to close the deal on at least one of them.


    Brett Anderson is not a 5 slot pitcher like your $1M free agent offer guys were last winter. He is a solid #2-3 type, as was Gonzalez and Cuerto who pitched like #1's this year.


    The reality is that the market hasn't had any value and fit for Red Sox SP trades and FA, except for one year deals on veteran SP in other teams' dumpsters. That hasn't changed for 2013.


    Forget 1 year signings of marginal journeymen starters. We can't come close to winning enough to pmake the playoffs with 2-3 scrubs hoping one pitches like  garcia or Colon last year... even that would come close to filling our need. We need to look to trade for a young starter or two that may have risk attached, but high upside (your fave word). We have very few pitching prospects to look forward to, so adding to the list of prospects or young promising ML starters is our best chance at hitting paydirt.


    A singular approach "it's the pitching so let's go hunt green grass from the other teams" to make the embarrassing massive pitching payroll Red Sox competitive for the 2nd WC spot, that's incompetent and will fail.


    Breet Anderson is not highly paid. Try and keep up. I have been against signing Greinke or any other FA starter on this year's list , except maybe McCarthey, J. Sanchez, or E. jackson if the price and length of contract are low enough. (Yes, I gave specific offer numbers before)

    The Red Sox management needs to take highly paid professional athletes from the current roster and the farm and get them to produce a professional result that is equal to their peers from the green grass of other teams. For depth, it needs to be the farm and one year contracts to veteran pitchers who want to work hard for high pay.


    We couldn't even get guys like Penny, Smoltz, Cook, and others to perform, how do expect guys making $1M to turn into gems?

    The Red Sox problem has been incompetent management who doesn't have a clue on value from the outside and managment and development from the current roster and farm on the inside. Flailing away with trade offers to SP that other teams know are good SP and don't want to trade isn't going to get it done. 


    But suggesting and flailing away for guys like kemp makes more sense? Geeesh!


    Your plan is always "Trade Jake" in the most unrealistic scenarios imaginable, yet you claim superiority to Ben. Had we followed your ideas, we'd never have any FAs, we'd have Nick Johnson at 1B, Papi in AAA, Lugo at SS, Crisp in CF, Drew in RF, Bard as a starter--still, and more horrible ideas. You'd be "FIRED" after a week.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    One year of 29-year-old centerfielder Jacoby Ellsbury at about $10 million for one year of 28-year-old starter Tim Lincecum at $22 million.

    Who hangs up first?

    Ellsbury has been valued at 18.3 WAR* since his call-up in 2007 while Lincecum has been valued at 29.9 WAR over the same period. The Red Sox need a starter with ace potential and the often-contending Giants will have holes to fill if outfielders Melky Cabrera and Angel Pagan leave via free agency.

    Happy Birthday, Jacoby Ellsbury.

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    Had we followed your ideas, we'd never have any FAs, we'd have Nick Johnson at 1B, Papi in AAA, Lugo at SS, Crisp in CF, Drew in RF, Bard as a starter--still, and more horrible ideas. You'd be "FIRED" after a week.

    I never wanted Nick Johnson at 1B. I said to offer him one year and 2M. Talk about lies.


    You juast said you wanted to make him an offer right after saying you never wanted him? Even lawyers re better at double-talking than this.

    You did want Nick Johnson, then suggested we go with Kotchman at 1B, then jumped on the  Beltre bandwagon, later claiming you were the "leader in advoicating for Beltre". Yes, talking about your lies.



    I never offered Lugo the four year deal he signed, and never would have signed him after that deal ended. You, on the other hand, blew up Lowrie, than Aviles, while the Red Sox still have been giving the SS starter jobs to bums.


    Dude, the "No Pop Jed" thread was a spoof. You know it. I know it. I always said Jed's range was "about as far as he can fall either way" and is second worst to Jete in MLB. I have always been for a great-ranged SS. I advocated for Iggy all winter. You can pretend otherwise, but that won't change reality.

    Yes, after Aviles became the starter, he did not do as badly in the field as anyone expected. His range has been much better than I expected. Unlike you, when someone does better than I expected him to do, I recognize it and change my views. I know your rigidity prevents you from ever changing anything in your mind, since you view that as a weakness. It is not. It is reality.


    Drew's contract ended, but I take it you didn't like him playing RF. He was terrible out there, and couldn't hit a lick. The team won the title in 2007, despite Drew and Lugo and Crisp. Wakefield was one of the key players, along with Ellsbury.


    You take it wrongly, again. No surprise.


    Crisp in CF, yes, I wanted him traded at the end of 2008. But, I've correctly said he's a better player than Ellsbury. And he is. The A's are winning despite Crisp in CF. Not sure why they haven't released him. He's costing at least 8 or 9M a year, and he misses entire seasons with injuries.


    Yes, we should have offered Crisp more. Brilliant. Check out his OBP as a leadoff hitter. It may be near what Julio's was.

    You provided pipe dream trade names for Anderson, which would not close the deal. I asked you to provide the pool of players that would close the deal. No one comes up with more pipe dream trades than you do.

    Earlier, you said I never name names. "Never". Now you say I make more than anyone. You're all over the map, dude. Try to at least stick to one extreme and be consistent.

    My trade offer for Anderson is a heck of a lot closer than your continued offer for Kemp, your foolish offers for AGon, and now for Upton. Then there are your "offer a $1M deal" to countless pitchers who ended up signing for $4M+ and then bombed out this year... brilliant!



    In all your gibberish, you keep saying "we need a #1 or a good #2". But you come up with Anderson, and that's it.

    Try to follow along. I have said we need to rebuild the rotation from the top, not with several #5s like you suggest. Sure, I'd love to get a number 1, but that is not easy, however, I did make some specific suggested offers for some aces. You just don't consider Shields and ace.  Although I am not for getting Cliff Lee and his absurd contract, I did suggest a deal that included Lackey to help offset the absurdity.  To me, the "top of the rotation" means a 1 or 2 slot guy, or a top #3 slot type guy. I'd much prefer to get these than overpay for an ace or pray for a miracle with a $1M bum. I have suggested many offers for #2-3 slot guys like Anderson.



    Your 1 million offer to Wakefield to waste a roster spot would have had you fired and exposed. Wakefield as a "#6" doesn't work unless he's embarrassing himself in minor league ball waiting for "white flag" call up.


    Get over it. Wake did better than Bard- end of story. Speaking of Bard...

    Bard as a bottom rotation starter in 2012 wasn't a bad idea. There was no way he could go that many innings total, but his game logs weren't bad for a #6 starter like loser Wastefield was. I like my idea better than yours, which was Wakefield.

    I still can't believe you think he wasn't bad. His game logs are worse than Wake. I printed them all out for you in detail and you are in denial.

    What's "not bad" about this?
    IP   H  ER BB
    5.0  8   5   1
    6.2  4   1   7
    7.0  6   2   1
    5.1  8   4   2
    7.0  6   5   4
    6.0  6   1   4
    5.0  3   5   5
    5.1  5   2   4
    5.1  5   2   2
    1.2  1   5   6

    For the love of God. This is horrible. Even his two games with 1 ER allowed, he allowed 10 Hits & 11 BBs in 12.2 IP.  

    Yeah, maybe, just maybe Wake's last 10 starts of 2011 were equal to Bard, the starts I said he should never have gotten-- before he got them, but Wake's first 10-15 starts blows Bard away...easilty. Not even close. Then when you figure many of Wake's ERs were a result of haviong a crippled Youk at 3B, who personally allowed 4-6 ERs in the last month of the year for Wake, the comparison is a joke.

    Wake's first 10 as a regular starter: (yes- game logs, dude- game logs)
    6.2  4  1  0
    7.0  5  2  2
    6.0  7  4  1
    5.1  5  5  3
    7.0  4  1  5
    8.0  3  3  1
    6.0  7  5  4
    5.1  11 5  0
    7.0  9  3  1
    4.2  9  3  2

    He followed this with 8 out of 9 games with 4 or less ERs. Bard followed his 10 games up with a horrible stint in AAA.



    My offer to Lackey was 3 years and 30M, liar, despite your prevarication by using my comments comparing signing him v. the other top 2 FA. In fact, when I made that offer you scoffed at it and said "you have to p ay the market rate". No, it does't work that way. My offer was below the market rate, which means Lackey signs elsewhere.



    You never even made an offer for lackey-liar. Nor did I. I never said pay "top rate for Lackey" and my posts are still there. You said the deal was "OK, but a year too long", but later when you found out about the injury clause, you said it "was the best we could do". Yes, you and I both felt it was an overpay, but necessary, but Only I am willing to admit my mistake. You are in denial and lying outright. Your moral standing is in the gutter, so stop the lies and stiop the political pontifications as well. For Obama  to lose, you should stay quiet, because you are doing more damage than good.


    Now, you are still a SP short, and Anderson is not a good #1 or #2. I'm still waiting...........

    He's a good 2-3, and his numbers will show it next year, just like Gio's and Cuerto's did this year.

    My offer for number 1/2s are on other threads. One was:

    Trade: Lava, Aceves, Ranaudo, and Brentz for Shields.  I'd throw in Aviles if the want some much needed middle IF offense.



     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to hill55's comment:

    One year of 29-year-old centerfielder Jacoby Ellsbury at about $10 million for one year of 28-year-old starter Tim Lincecum at $22 million.

    Who hangs up first?

    Ellsbury has been valued at 18.3 WAR* since his call-up in 2007 while Lincecum has been valued at 29.9 WAR over the same period. The Red Sox need a starter with ace potential and the often-contending Giants will have holes to fill if outfielders Melky Cabrera and Angel Pagan leave via free agency.

    Happy Birthday, Jacoby Ellsbury.

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs



    SF hangs up first.

    If they have given up on Lincecum after one bad year, why are they such believers in Ellsbury, who has only had one great one?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    In response to bobbysu's comment:

    Since Bucholz, I can think of only 3 players that Theo drafted, that have made the Majors. Masterson, Doubront, Kelly.
    That big gap, of us not keep bringing up young impact Starters has hurt this team big time.
    Theo told the Cubs he wants to build  strong Minor League Impact Players, well his track record for the Sox was not that good. I'd rate it terrible in fact.
    Last years Draft wasn't the strongest, as far as Players Talents were, and this years Draft is also rated weak too.
    Sox have to go the Free Agent route, or Trade for Good Starting Pitching. Otherwise this team is headed for 2 years Min. of being a so-so Team.
    Epstein started good, by time he was done, he hurt this team for many years to come.
    Very bad Talent Evaluation starting in the Front Office.



    Your count is way, way, way off. You added Bard yourself, but Doubront was not drafted, so it balances out there.

    On the other hand, you forgot about Will Middlebrooks, Ryan Lavarnway, Ryan Kalish, Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, Lars Anderson, Stephen Fife, Tim Fedorowicz, Kyle Weiland, Nick Hagadone, Dustin Richardson, and Kris Negron.

    And there were a few other the Sox drafted, but did not sign, who also made the majors, including Matt LaPorta, Brandon Belt, Yasmani Grandal, Yan Gomes, Justin Grimm, and Logan Schafer.

    All of these players were drafted by Boston between 2006 and 2008. No one from the 2009 draft has made the majors as of yet. That is a lot of MLB players for 3 drafts. Now, youi post says players, but you only talk about and mention SP, although you then add Bard. If you meant pitchers in general, you still missed a few – Wieland, Fife, Richardson, Hagadone, Grimm. ( Also, Belt was drafted as a pitcher.) For starting pitching, you take out Hagadone and maybe Richardson.

    Also, you are the only person who thinks the Sox 2011 draft class, headed by a first/sandwich round including Matt Barnes, Jackie Bradley Jr., Blake Swihart and Henry Owens, was a weak class. Of the 7 billion people in the world, you are alone with that opinion. There are bushmen on the Kalahari Desert who thought the Sox had an excellent draft…

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: 2012 Options

    I must've missed it, but when did Richardson, Hagadone, Federowicz, Wieland, Fife, Negron and Anderson make the majors for more than a cup of coffee? Granted, they were used as trading chips, but none of them has done a thing in MLB.
    So, as far as talent evaluation, I think Softy was talking about people who actually play in the Majors. I think you're muddying the issue.
    Then again, he wants to fire Don Cherry, for some reason.
     

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