2013 Off Season Rebuttal

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    2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    We have a time-honored tradition of slamming other posters for drooling over past off-season recommendations that end in disaster, one which I am not immune from partaking in, despite the fact that board posts influence reality by about 0%.  And for the sake of this tradition, allow me to offer up several of my past off-season recommendations for review and subsequent rebuttal.

    Disclaimer: I never intended all these players on the same team.  Some acquisitions would have negated the need for others, and they changed as various needs were filled by other players, several of whom I never wanted either.  It was more of a Rolling Wish List.

    Justin Smoak.  My loudest recommendation.  Granted, I admit I was hoping for a diamond in the rough here, but he has been a lot more rough than diamond.   .236 / .344 / .309 with 1 HR, and even that came against the lowly Astros pitching staff.  His whopping 5RBI do not provide much support my way either.   On the bright side, if has any potential left, he will be very easy to get next offseason, after Seattle non-tenders him.  Right now, chances of that lie somewhere in between 99% and 101%.

    Justin Upton.  Always been a big fan, and he came out of the gate FAST.  Ever-repeated and laughably bad offers of Ellsbury and some farmhands were ludicrous (and actually inferior to the package the Dbacks received), and I suggested a package around Bradley and either Doubront or Webster.  Arizona’s interest in Bradley is unclear, given their commitment to Adam Eaton.   However, I certainly would have replaced him with Middlebrooks in a heartbeat, since AZ seemed to be targeting  3B.   To date, Upton has a robust 1.105OPS and MLB-leading 12HRs, and Bradley was rushed into action prematurely, while Middlebrooks and Doubront have both underperformed severely.  And the jury is still out on Webster.  I don’t recall ever suggesting a 3B to replace Middlebrooks, and given my track record this past winter, it is probably just as well.  Not that beating Middlebrooks would have been difficult, and I refuse to be enamored with his overly aggressive and unproductive approach to hitting.  History does show I might have been able to get back Chris Johnson, who is one of those players with the rare distinction of being both underrated and underwhelming.   Of course, Upton’s NTC always lingered as a potential issue.

    Seth Smith.  I was hoping for a Saltalamacchia-Smith swap in a trade of very equal players that filled one team’s respective needs by dealing from the other’s surplus.  Smith has done very well (.277 / .352 / .429 with 3 HRs), about the same as Saltalamacchia (.253 / .330 / .483 with 4 HRs).   However, I wanted Smith as an option for LF platoon in place of Nava, whom I projected to be a .246 hitter with 5 HRs.  Add my name to the long list of people proven wrong by Nava.   The Sox are clearly a better team with Saltamacchia / Ross and Nava than they would be with Smith and Ross / Lavarnway or whoever.

    Francisco Liriano.  I figured him to be the best of the short-term pitching options, ahead of Marcum and Dempster in that order.  (I did not consider Greinke or Sanchez as short term options.)   To date, 0 IP.  Certainly not an upgrade over Dempster by any means.

    Shaun Marcum.  I recommended Marcum as an option if and only if Doubront was dealt away.  In retrospect, a team that has seen 3 seasons in a row derailed by multiple injuries should not consider Marcum as a good solution.   And, in a development anyone and everyone should have anticipated, Marcum’s season has already been plagued with injuries and ineffectiveness.

    Will Venable.  Another option for the LF platoon with Gomes in place of Smith.  Venable has heated up recently, but got off to an abysmal start.  His current .753OPS with 4 HRs is about where one would expect him to be right now.  I never suggested a return for Venable, but it would have been unspectacular.

    David DeJesus.  Part of my brigade for LHH LF.  I hate platoons. But once Gomes was signed, the writing was on the wall.   DeJesus might be the most underappreciated player in all of MLB, and a likely trade candidate this July.  However, he was probably signed for the sole purpose of being flipped, and therefore would not necessarily come cheap.

    Mike Morse.  We all knew he would get dealt, and was a reasonable 1B alternative while the Sox figured out Napoli’s hip issues.   Morse certainly can hit HRs, but not much else.  Currently second in the AL in HRs, but with an OPS slightly better than Stephen Drew.  Given the cost (RHP AJ Cole, who ranked just ahead of Xander Bogaerts on the 2012 BA Top 100), he was probably best avoided.

    Mike Carp.  The only name on my list of players the Sox actually got, and he certainly has been productive.  No one expects this pace to last, but he is a role player.

    There were probably others I don’t recall, but I am sure they were for players who are either on the DL, or who their fans wish were on the DL.  So besides adequately filling the backup 1B/OF, I can safely say my tenure as GM would and should be very short. 

    Unless Justin Upton saved my job…

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    Well said.

    I thought Drew at SS was a good signing.  On the chance, he would have a big year and earn the Sox a compensation draft pick.   Early days, and JI is pulling a Jesus Montero pout in AAA.

    I was neutral on Dempster, he has a good record of staying healthy.

    I said stay away from J.Upton and his bad attitude.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    With 20/20 hindsight as my guide, herewith are my GM moves. Never trading for A-Gon and against signing CC. Instead, re-sign Beltre (good move), and would've gone after Werth, who would have been a decent if unspectacular addition. Now, as Youkilis faded, I'd still have Anthony Rizzo, and he would be my current 1B. Not to mention Kelley as a chip for other needs. Middlebrooks would be blocked by Beltre, and tradeable as well, so who knows? Perhaps sent to Az in  an Upton deal?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    I was calling for David Ross in November. Not often someone calls for a BU catcher, but with tek gone, and not thinking Lavarnway was a good option, I thought there needed to be a solid replacement with salty there.

    I think that was the only one I really was strong about. I liked Drew and Dempster. Liked Vic, but wasnt thrilled about the $$. But hes been exactly that, money. Gomes was an overpay for his role, but understanding their approach this off season, I understood it.

    I though naps would have been an overpay at 3/39, but that has worked out pretty good so far at 1/5 and 8M in incentives. If they didnt get him I thought Daric Barton of the A's would be a good option to go after. He was send down and has only played a couple games this year in favor of former Sox player Brandon Moss. He was just recalled as they placed Reddick on the DL for a wrist issue. Barton was always good about getting on base.

    Didnt understand Hanrahan. When Bailey went down it started to make sense, until Hanny went down for the 2nd time and probably will be gone for the year.

    Wanted them to make a play for Kuroda, which they did. but it was the NYY or back home for him.

    I really didnt expect any big moves this year, So I wasnt concentrating on the "Big Move".

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    notin, it's refreshing to see someone take an honest look at themselves.

    I'm not sure my record was any better, and I missed by a long shot on many of my suggestions, most notably signing B McCarthy and/or trading for Brett Anderson who along with Justin Upton were my 3 most talked about suggestions.

    I mentioned so many names this past winter as possible trade targets or signings.

    SP: My most mentioned slot to fill. I suggested trading Doubront so many times, I lost count. Trading him opened 2 slots. I wanted Brett Anderson most of all via trade, and wanted us to look to sign younger SPs to 3+ years (McCarthy) rather than old guys to 1-2 years (Dempster). I, like notin, thought Marcum would be a niceshort-term gamble. My secondary plan was to try and win this year AND set ourselves up for 2014 and beyond. The central players involved in this suggested plan were J Upton and A Sanchez. The money spent on both would have meant no Dempster, Papi, Victorino, Drew, and the trading away of Ellsbury and Doubront, and possibly Salty. My thought was that for the same money, we'd have 2 guys signed (Upton extended) beyond 2015, whereas the guys we signed instead will almost all be gone in 2015. The other slots would be filled by JBJ/Linares/Brentz/Nava, Lava/Vazquez/Butler, Iggy/Ciriaco/Bogaerts/Holt, and Tazawa/Webster/Mortensen/???

    I also mentioned that if we were not planning on extending Lester, we should trade him for Myers (and maybe Butler or Gordon). I mentioned J Shields as a target, but realized trading with TB would be difficult.

    1B: I liked the Napoli signing and suggested $33M/3 early on, before the injury came to light. I like K Morales, and M Morse as options if Naps fell through. I liked the Carp move as talks began to surface. I liked notin's Smoak suggestion as well. I criticized softy for his Loney-Gomez suggestion as well as his Overbay call.

    SS: I have been for Iggy as our FT SS for 2 years. I was firmly against the Drew signing, but have admitted he looks to be aa better fielder than I imagined- though still far from Iggy's defesnive skill level.

    C: I was happy with the Ross signing, but was not an advocate beforehand, unless we traded Salty. Ross has been slightly better vs RHPs over the years, so I didn't see him as a good fit with Salty.

    CF: I was for trading Ellsbury before the season started (added value of draft pick attached), and I wanted us to sign Angel Pagan for about the same money as Victorino but with a 4th year. I was also happy with Bradley as our CF'er, since I felt this was a rebuilding year anyways. Once the trade was clearly not happening, I though JBJ should start in AAA and then play CF with Ellsbury in LF (Nava/Gomes at DH until Papi returned). (I also mentioned trading Ellsbury and signing Bourn.)

    LF: I was very happy with the Gomes signing (look at what a comparable Ross got), but always wanted J Upton. I said several times that a Nava/Gomes platoon could produce the best OBP on the team by position (LF).

    RF: I was not happy putting Upton in RF, but felt he was a better option than Gomes/Nava.

    DH: I was against signing Papi to that money. I felt a $22M/2 deal with PA incentives that could bring him close to $15M was the best he could find anywhere. I thought a Lava/Nava/Gomes/Naps DH rotation might work out fine.

    Essentially, I was looking for deals that made us better in 2015 and beyond or 2014 and beyond, and felt we put too much emphasis on the here and now, hoever, I was not bashing Ben, and said over and over that he deserved a longer look and a chance to show his plan is a good one. I loved the Dodger trade and called it "perhaps the best Sox trade in my lifetime". Ben gets credit for that, and so far his winter moves have looked pretty sharp.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    notin, it's refreshing to see someone take an honest look at themselves.

    I'm not sure my record was any better, and I missed by a long shot on many of my suggestions, most notably signing B McCarthy and/or trading for Brett Anderson who along with Justin Upton were my 3 most talked about suggestions.

    I mentioned so many names this past winter as possible trade targets or signings.

    SP: My most mentioned slot to fill. I suggested trading Doubront so many times, I lost count. Trading him opened 2 slots. I wanted Brett Anderson most of all via trade, and wanted us to look to sign younger SPs to 3+ years (McCarthy) rather than old guys to 1-2 years (Dempster). I, like notin, thought Marcum would be a niceshort-term gamble. My secondary plan was to try and win this year AND set ourselves up for 2014 and beyond. The central players involved in this suggested plan were J Upton and A Sanchez. The money spent on both would have meant no Dempster, Papi, Victorino, Drew, and the trading away of Ellsbury and Doubront, and possibly Salty. My thought was that for the same money, we'd have 2 guys signed (Upton extended) beyond 2015, whereas the guys we signed instead will almost all be gone in 2015. The other slots would be filled by JBJ/Linares/Brentz/Nava, Lava/Vazquez/Butler, Iggy/Ciriaco/Bogaerts/Holt, and Tazawa/Webster/Mortensen/???

    I also mentioned that if we were not planning on extending Lester, we should trade him for Myers (and maybe Butler or Gordon). I mentioned J Shields as a target, but realized trading with TB would be difficult.

    1B: I liked the Napoli signing and suggested $33M/3 early on, before the injury came to light. I like K Morales, and M Morse as options if Naps fell through. I liked the Carp move as talks began to surface. I liked notin's Smoak suggestion as well. I criticized softy for his Loney-Gomez suggestion as well as his Overbay call.

    SS: I have been for Iggy as our FT SS for 2 years. I was firmly against the Drew signing, but have admitted he looks to be aa better fielder than I imagined- though still far from Iggy's defesnive skill level.

    C: I was happy with the Ross signing, but was not an advocate beforehand, unless we traded Salty. Ross has been slightly better vs RHPs over the years, so I didn't see him as a good fit with Salty.

    CF: I was for trading Ellsbury before the season started (added value of draft pick attached), and I wanted us to sign Angel Pagan for about the same money as Victorino but with a 4th year. I was also happy with Bradley as our CF'er, since I felt this was a rebuilding year anyways. Once the trade was clearly not happening, I though JBJ should start in AAA and then play CF with Ellsbury in LF (Nava/Gomes at DH until Papi returned). (I also mentioned trading Ellsbury and signing Bourn.)

    LF: I was very happy with the Gomes signing (look at what a comparable Ross got), but always wanted J Upton. I said several times that a Nava/Gomes platoon could produce the best OBP on the team by position (LF).

    RF: I was not happy putting Upton in RF, but felt he was a better option than Gomes/Nava.

    DH: I was against signing Papi to that money. I felt a $22M/2 deal with PA incentives that could bring him close to $15M was the best he could find anywhere. I thought a Lava/Nava/Gomes/Naps DH rotation might work out fine.

    Essentially, I was looking for deals that made us better in 2015 and beyond or 2014 and beyond, and felt we put too much emphasis on the here and now, hoever, I was not bashing Ben, and said over and over that he deserved a longer look and a chance to show his plan is a good one. I loved the Dodger trade and called it "perhaps the best Sox trade in my lifetime". Ben gets credit for that, and so far his winter moves have looked pretty sharp.

     



    I left  Brett Anderson off my list, too.  He has been a younger slightly better Marcum so far..

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    HAHA!!  Great post Notin and great thread!  Always good to see look back on our thoughts and see why we are not real GM's and eat a little crow.

    I really wanted Torii Hunter.  So far he is having a stellar season so I'll pat myself on the back.  Wanted to see them trade Ells for some starting pitching. 

    I really liked the idea of Porcello....and he has been horrible (+7 ERA) so that was a mistke so far.  Was thinking hunter in center until Bradley was ready to take over at some point in Center then move Hunter over. 

    I was big on the Naps signing...but thought it was too much $$ at the time.  Looks great now. 

    I was not very big on many of the big FA out there.  I liked Annibal Sanchez a lot however.  I really liked the idea of a Lester, Buch, Sanchez, Lackey and Doubie rotation.  Didn't like the money he was after though.  He's having a very solid start.  Dempster is making me forget about him though.......but what to do about Doubie??

    I was ALL FOR trading Lester for Myers....thought Myers was a pretty special player and would give us the best farm system in the league.......  that one so far I'm glad never materialized.

    Never wanted Upton.....that's not working out well for me.  I thought he was an underachieving mess....oops.

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    With 20/20 hindsight as my guide, herewith are my GM moves. Never trading for A-Gon and against signing CC. Instead, re-sign Beltre (good move), and would've gone after Werth, who would have been a decent if unspectacular addition. Now, as Youkilis faded, I'd still have Anthony Rizzo, and he would be my current 1B. Not to mention Kelley as a chip for other needs. Middlebrooks would be blocked by Beltre, and tradeable as well, so who knows? Perhaps sent to Az in  an Upton deal?



    If I were to go after anyone on SD, it would've been Headley.  His stats, at the time, were suppressed at SD.  And the root of our problem was assuming Youk could just flip to 3B.  It should've been Headley at 3B and Youk at 1st (assuming we could acquire Headley).

    For my current year ledger, I really liked the Drew signing, and still hope he is good enough for us to give him a QO.  If we do, then it almost like we signed him for free.

    On the other side of the ledger, I'd have traded a scrub for Haren's contract and have LA pick up $3M of the option.  So far, not so good.  Dempster has done far better for the money.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to Kingface12's comment:

    HAHA!!  Great post Notin and great thread!  Always good to see look back on our thoughts and see why we are not real GM's and eat a little crow.

    I really wanted Torii Hunter.  So far he is having a stellar season so I'll pat myself on the back.  Wanted to see them trade Ells for some starting pitching. 

    I really liked the idea of Porcello....and he has been horrible (+7 ERA) so that was a mistke so far.  Was thinking hunter in center until Bradley was ready to take over at some point in Center then move Hunter over. 

    I was big on the Naps signing...but thought it was too much $$ at the time.  Looks great now. 

    I was not very big on many of the big FA out there.  I liked Annibal Sanchez a lot however.  I really liked the idea of a Lester, Buch, Sanchez, Lackey and Doubie rotation.  Didn't like the money he was after though.  He's having a very solid start.  Dempster is making me forget about him though.......but what to do about Doubie??

    I was ALL FOR trading Lester for Myers....thought Myers was a pretty special player and would give us the best farm system in the league.......  that one so far I'm glad never materialized.

    Never wanted Upton.....that's not working out well for me.  I thought he was an underachieving mess....oops.

     

     




    Oops...I forgot about Hunter..I wanted him too, and was calling his name right off the bat. I guess his early signing slipped my memory. I probably should have thought my first post out more before posting.

    I didnt want Upton right now because the haul of players, for a guy who was up and down the last 4 years, scared me. Although I did say he has monster potential, and stand by that. I would have rather made a bid for him AFTER the 2015 season, and still would, when hes a FA and in his prime after we bring some kids up and go through this bridge period. It made no sense to me to have him around when by the time he was a FA in 2015, we would have settled into the next wave of talent from the farm and have "walked over" that bridge...

    Didnt like the idea of Lester and probably another prospect for Myers. Not an accomplished TOTR starter in a tough ALE for a kid who hasnt stepped foot in a MLB batters box. To me, it was way too much of a gamble.

    Honestly, I did like the approach they took this year. They kept all the kids to evaluate them further and signed some solid players to change the clubhouse atmosphere and produce on the field. All of them have done that so far. I think they now have some more valuable trade chips with some of their prospects which will net us a much better return if we choose to use them in a deal. We also have a better idea and a cleareer picture as to what some of these prospects are and if they are a part of the Sox future. There is also no one that cant be moved if a prospect is ready for the big show.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to Kingface12's comment:

     

    HAHA!!  Great post Notin and great thread!  Always good to see look back on our thoughts and see why we are not real GM's and eat a little crow.

    I really wanted Torii Hunter.  So far he is having a stellar season so I'll pat myself on the back.  Wanted to see them trade Ells for some starting pitching. 

    I really liked the idea of Porcello....and he has been horrible (+7 ERA) so that was a mistke so far.  Was thinking hunter in center until Bradley was ready to take over at some point in Center then move Hunter over. 

    I was big on the Naps signing...but thought it was too much $$ at the time.  Looks great now. 

    I was not very big on many of the big FA out there.  I liked Annibal Sanchez a lot however.  I really liked the idea of a Lester, Buch, Sanchez, Lackey and Doubie rotation.  Didn't like the money he was after though.  He's having a very solid start.  Dempster is making me forget about him though.......but what to do about Doubie??

    I was ALL FOR trading Lester for Myers....thought Myers was a pretty special player and would give us the best farm system in the league.......  that one so far I'm glad never materialized.

    Never wanted Upton.....that's not working out well for me.  I thought he was an underachieving mess....oops.

     

     

     




    Oops...I forgot about Hunter..I wanted him too, and was calling his name right off the bat. I guess his early signing slipped my memory. I probably should have thought my first post out more before posting.

     

    I didnt want Upton right now because the haul of players, for a guy who was up and down the last 4 years, scared me. Although I did say he has monster potential, and stand by that. I would have rather made a bid for him AFTER the 2015 season, and still would, when hes a FA and in his prime after we bring some kids up and go through this bridge period. It made no sense to me to have him around when by the time he was a FA in 2015, we would have settled into the next wave of talent from the farm and have "walked over" that bridge...

    Didnt like the idea of Lester and probably another prospect for Myers. Not an accomplished TOTR starter in a tough ALE for a kid who hasnt stepped foot in a MLB batters box. To me, it was way too much of a gamble.

    Honestly, I did like the approach they took this year. They kept all the kids to evaluate them further and signed some solid players to change the clubhouse atmosphere and produce on the field. All of them have done that so far. I think they now have some more valuable trade chips with some of their prospects which will net us a much better return if we choose to use them in a deal. We also have a better idea and a cleareer picture as to what some of these prospects are and if they are a part of the Sox future. There is also no one that cant be moved if a prospect is ready for the big show.




    I hear you about Lester for Myers.  I guess my thought at the time was "It looks like they want to blow this thing up....why not really go for the BIG CHANGE and get a possible next big thing?"  I really wasn't thinking we would be as cometitive as we have been so far so I wanted to see them stockpile a lot of great prospects.  The idea of an outfield of Myers, JBJ, Brentz. and and IF of WMB, Pedey, Iggy and Bogey sounded pretty cool to me in the furure.  Looks like it worked out for the best though!

    Agree 100% when you say "There is also no one that cant be moved if a prospect is ready for the big show."  The contracts that BC gave a lot of these guys are pretty team friendly.  I think a lot of people over-look that part.  The only contract that could be hard to deal away would be Vic.....I think he's GREAT for this team....just a bit more than I would have spent.  But heck....what do I know....I'm pretty happy most of my "gm' moves didn't come into fruition!!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to Kingface12's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to Kingface12's comment:

     

    HAHA!!  Great post Notin and great thread!  Always good to see look back on our thoughts and see why we are not real GM's and eat a little crow.

    I really wanted Torii Hunter.  So far he is having a stellar season so I'll pat myself on the back.  Wanted to see them trade Ells for some starting pitching. 

    I really liked the idea of Porcello....and he has been horrible (+7 ERA) so that was a mistke so far.  Was thinking hunter in center until Bradley was ready to take over at some point in Center then move Hunter over. 

    I was big on the Naps signing...but thought it was too much $$ at the time.  Looks great now. 

    I was not very big on many of the big FA out there.  I liked Annibal Sanchez a lot however.  I really liked the idea of a Lester, Buch, Sanchez, Lackey and Doubie rotation.  Didn't like the money he was after though.  He's having a very solid start.  Dempster is making me forget about him though.......but what to do about Doubie??

    I was ALL FOR trading Lester for Myers....thought Myers was a pretty special player and would give us the best farm system in the league.......  that one so far I'm glad never materialized.

    Never wanted Upton.....that's not working out well for me.  I thought he was an underachieving mess....oops.

     

     

     




    Oops...I forgot about Hunter..I wanted him too, and was calling his name right off the bat. I guess his early signing slipped my memory. I probably should have thought my first post out more before posting.

     

    I didnt want Upton right now because the haul of players, for a guy who was up and down the last 4 years, scared me. Although I did say he has monster potential, and stand by that. I would have rather made a bid for him AFTER the 2015 season, and still would, when hes a FA and in his prime after we bring some kids up and go through this bridge period. It made no sense to me to have him around when by the time he was a FA in 2015, we would have settled into the next wave of talent from the farm and have "walked over" that bridge...

    Didnt like the idea of Lester and probably another prospect for Myers. Not an accomplished TOTR starter in a tough ALE for a kid who hasnt stepped foot in a MLB batters box. To me, it was way too much of a gamble.

    Honestly, I did like the approach they took this year. They kept all the kids to evaluate them further and signed some solid players to change the clubhouse atmosphere and produce on the field. All of them have done that so far. I think they now have some more valuable trade chips with some of their prospects which will net us a much better return if we choose to use them in a deal. We also have a better idea and a cleareer picture as to what some of these prospects are and if they are a part of the Sox future. There is also no one that cant be moved if a prospect is ready for the big show.

     




    I hear you about Lester for Myers.  I guess my thought at the time was "It looks like they want to blow this thing up....why not really go for the BIG CHANGE and get a possible next big thing?"  I really wasn't thinking we would be as cometitive as we have been so far so I wanted to see them stockpile a lot of great prospects.  The idea of an outfield of Myers, JBJ, Brentz. and and IF of WMB, Pedey, Iggy and Bogey sounded pretty cool to me in the furure.  Looks like it worked out for the best though!

     

    Agree 100% when you say "There is also no one that cant be moved if a prospect is ready for the big show."  The contracts that BC gave a lot of these guys are pretty team friendly.  I think a lot of people over-look that part.  The only contract that could be hard to deal away would be Vic.....I think he's GREAT for this team....just a bit more than I would have spent.  But heck....what do I know....I'm pretty happy most of my "gm' moves didn't come into fruition!!




    I understand the Lester/Myers deal under those circumstances. I think KC would have had to give us more than that though for 2 years of Lester and another prospect because I value an accomplished LHP more than an unknown OF prospect. But more to the point, I agree that the deal makes more sense if they were indeed going for the "Big Change".

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    I understand the Lester/Myers deal under those circumstances. I think KC would have had to give us more than that though for 2 years of Lester and another prospect because I value an accomplished LHP more than an unknown OF prospect. But more to the point, I agree that the deal makes more sense if they were indeed going for the "Big Change".

    Remember Tb gave Davis too, and got some other nice prospects in return with Myers (Montgomery, Leonard, and Odorizzi).  I think Lester and a prospect could have gotten us Myers and Butler or Gordon- maybe even all three if we threw in Doubront and a prospect like I suggested at the time.

    Remember, I was only for trading Lester, if we were not going to extend him.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I understand the Lester/Myers deal under those circumstances. I think KC would have had to give us more than that though for 2 years of Lester and another prospect because I value an accomplished LHP more than an unknown OF prospect. But more to the point, I agree that the deal makes more sense if they were indeed going for the "Big Change".

    Remember Tb gave Davis too, and got some other nice prospects in return with Myers (Montgomery, Leonard, and Odorizzi).  I think Lester and a prospect could have gotten us Myers and Butler or Gordon- maybe even all three if we threw in Doubront and a prospect like I suggested at the time.

    Remember, I was only for trading Lester, if we were not going to extend him.

     




    Ha! Thats right..Thanks moon. My memory is not working so well this morning it would seem. Maybe I should go get some more sleep...Sealed

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    Wil Myers has a .790 OPS so far in AAA.

    Gordon with KC: 6 Hrs and 27 RBIs (.873 OPS)

    Butler: .732 OPS with 3 Hrs and 19 RBIs.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Wil Myers has a .790 OPS so far in AAA.




    Odorizzi looks like the real deal though. Hes killing it in AAA.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    We have a time-honored tradition of slamming other posters for drooling over past off-season recommendations that end in disaster, one which I am not immune from partaking in, despite the fact that board posts influence reality by about 0%.  And for the sake of this tradition, allow me to offer up several of my past off-season recommendations for review and subsequent rebuttal.

    Disclaimer: I never intended all these players on the same team.  Some acquisitions would have negated the need for others, and they changed as various needs were filled by other players, several of whom I never wanted either.  It was more of a Rolling Wish List.

    Justin Smoak.  My loudest recommendation.  Granted, I admit I was hoping for a diamond in the rough here, but he has been a lot more rough than diamond.   .236 / .344 / .309 with 1 HR, and even that came against the lowly Astros pitching staff.  His whopping 5RBI do not provide much support my way either.   On the bright side, if has any potential left, he will be very easy to get next offseason, after Seattle non-tenders him.  Right now, chances of that lie somewhere in between 99% and 101%.

    Justin Upton.  Always been a big fan, and he came out of the gate FAST.  Ever-repeated and laughably bad offers of Ellsbury and some farmhands were ludicrous (and actually inferior to the package the Dbacks received), and I suggested a package around Bradley and either Doubront or Webster.  Arizona’s interest in Bradley is unclear, given their commitment to Adam Eaton.   However, I certainly would have replaced him with Middlebrooks in a heartbeat, since AZ seemed to be targeting  3B.   To date, Upton has a robust 1.105OPS and MLB-leading 12HRs, and Bradley was rushed into action prematurely, while Middlebrooks and Doubront have both underperformed severely.  And the jury is still out on Webster.  I don’t recall ever suggesting a 3B to replace Middlebrooks, and given my track record this past winter, it is probably just as well.  Not that beating Middlebrooks would have been difficult, and I refuse to be enamored with his overly aggressive and unproductive approach to hitting.  History does show I might have been able to get back Chris Johnson, who is one of those players with the rare distinction of being both underrated and underwhelming.   Of course, Upton’s NTC always lingered as a potential issue.

    Seth Smith.  I was hoping for a Saltalamacchia-Smith swap in a trade of very equal players that filled one team’s respective needs by dealing from the other’s surplus.  Smith has done very well (.277 / .352 / .429 with 3 HRs), about the same as Saltalamacchia (.253 / .330 / .483 with 4 HRs).   However, I wanted Smith as an option for LF platoon in place of Nava, whom I projected to be a .246 hitter with 5 HRs.  Add my name to the long list of people proven wrong by Nava.   The Sox are clearly a better team with Saltamacchia / Ross and Nava than they would be with Smith and Ross / Lavarnway or whoever.

    Francisco Liriano.  I figured him to be the best of the short-term pitching options, ahead of Marcum and Dempster in that order.  (I did not consider Greinke or Sanchez as short term options.)   To date, 0 IP.  Certainly not an upgrade over Dempster by any means.

    Shaun Marcum.  I recommended Marcum as an option if and only if Doubront was dealt away.  In retrospect, a team that has seen 3 seasons in a row derailed by multiple injuries should not consider Marcum as a good solution.   And, in a development anyone and everyone should have anticipated, Marcum’s season has already been plagued with injuries and ineffectiveness.

    Will Venable.  Another option for the LF platoon with Gomes in place of Smith.  Venable has heated up recently, but got off to an abysmal start.  His current .753OPS with 4 HRs is about where one would expect him to be right now.  I never suggested a return for Venable, but it would have been unspectacular.

    David DeJesus.  Part of my brigade for LHH LF.  I hate platoons. But once Gomes was signed, the writing was on the wall.   DeJesus might be the most underappreciated player in all of MLB, and a likely trade candidate this July.  However, he was probably signed for the sole purpose of being flipped, and therefore would not necessarily come cheap.

    Mike Morse.  We all knew he would get dealt, and was a reasonable 1B alternative while the Sox figured out Napoli’s hip issues.   Morse certainly can hit HRs, but not much else.  Currently second in the AL in HRs, but with an OPS slightly better than Stephen Drew.  Given the cost (RHP AJ Cole, who ranked just ahead of Xander Bogaerts on the 2012 BA Top 100), he was probably best avoided.

    Mike Carp.  The only name on my list of players the Sox actually got, and he certainly has been productive.  No one expects this pace to last, but he is a role player.

    There were probably others I don’t recall, but I am sure they were for players who are either on the DL, or who their fans wish were on the DL.  So besides adequately filling the backup 1B/OF, I can safely say my tenure as GM would and should be very short. 

    Unless Justin Upton saved my job…

     

     



    Good post notin, we all have our moments of playing GM "myself included" and in some cases we may even have better judgement than some of the experts.  Caring is parting of being a die hard Sox fan, or fan of anyones favorite club. 

     

    I also agree on how some fans and experts "over hype" kids like Middy, Iggy, Hanley, Bradley and Stanton.  A player shouldn't be labled "great" at the major or minor league level by having one or two good years.  It's how hard they work and produce on a consistent basis that usually determines whether they will become solid major league players.  There is also the health, mental toughness and stamina factors that nobody can really predict. 

    I have the most respect for youngsters like Nava who consistently produce at the lower levels but fail innitially at the bigs, then get right back to working hard in the minors after being demoted in hopes of getting another shot.    

     

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    Fun thread, like to see the issue re-visited at end of season because a month and a half of a season hardly delivers a final verdict on the players in question.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In a nutshell,   Signings I was in favor of:  Victorino Napoli Hanrahan Dempster   Signings i didn't like: Drew Ross Gomes   Not to say I don't like these players, but i thought SS, BckpC, LF were all positions they could have filled from within, then go hard after Anibal Sanchez. ( i know the arguments based on last year's team at the end or 1/3 of the end of it ).    I don't want to get into the money side of it ( that would be a different conversation ), except that i thought that filling those positions from w/in wld justify a big contract signing. And i have to admit, i tend to forgive bad signings when it has to do w/ pitching, especially ones based on career performance ( see Hanrahan i guess ).    So yeah. As GM, i would have advocated for a revolving door at nearly 3 positions to sign more effective starting pitching. 

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to emp9's comment:

    In a nutshell,   Signings I was in favor of:  Victorino Napoli Hanrahan Dempster   Signings i didn't like: Drew Ross Gomes   Not to say I don't like these players, but i thought SS, BckpC, LF were all positions they could have filled from within, then go hard after Anibal Sanchez. ( i know the arguments based on last year's team at the end or 1/3 of the end of it ).    I don't want to get into the money side of it ( that would be a different conversation ), except that i thought that filling those positions from w/in wld justify a big contract signing. And i have to admit, i tend to forgive bad signings when it has to do w/ pitching, especially ones based on career performance ( see Hanrahan i guess ).    So yeah. As GM, i would have advocated for a revolving door at nearly 3 positions to sign more effective starting pitching. 

     



    I really liked Sanchez, and his 195+ IP for 3 straight years showed he had become more reliable than many here seemed to think he was.

    I was not big on trying to sign Lackey years ago, but when they gxot him for less than what I expected him to sign for, I liked the deal for the same reason you mention. trying to upgrade the rotation from the middle up part vs continually seeking better 5th starters in hopse one blossums on our watch is a forgivable gamble.

    Had we put all our eggs in two baskets: J Upton and A Sanchez, who really knows if we'd have a better record right now, but my position was that these guys would still be here in 2015 and beyond (assuming an Upton extension).

    We also will never know if these two would have put up the same numbers in this rough environment.

    Ben's plan has worked thus far. I hope it continues, but I have serious doubts. Of course, after a nice start, the odds have improved on making the playoffs, and my 83-85 win projection may turn out low.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreenPartyCelt. Show GreenPartyCelt's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    Did not really do too much GMing, with the Yankees, other than begging for them to acquire Josh Hamilton, dreaming of how he would manhandle the short porch in LF....At one point, I began to embarrassingly predict it was inevitable....Talk about dodging a bad big contract signing...On the other hand, I was in complete agreement  with all of the MLB pundits who mocked the dinero numbers the Yanks threw at Vernon Wells...If there was one non-New York-based writer who supported that signing, at the time it happened, I would be shocked to see the link...As I remember, it was almost universally lampooned...While it is still early, Wells has been a revelation....With all the parity in baseball now, he has helped to keep the Yankee ship afloat...When Granderson, Tex, Pineda, and Jeter are back on board, who knows what will transpire...But at least the Yanks are not likely to be 8 games out...

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    J. Upton got off to a flying start, but I'm still not sure I like this guy.  He's got 12 HR but only 21 RBI.  A quick look at his splits shows the reason:

    Bases empty 333/443/815

    Men on base 178/304/289

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ever-repeated and laughably bad offers of Ellsbury and some farmhands were ludicrous (and actually inferior to the package the Dbacks received

    Wrong, pal. Ellsbury plus draft compesnation plus 3 or 4 farm hands from anyone but Bradley, Barnes and Bogaerts is superior to the package the Dbacks received. Ellsbury plus draft compensation could have been converted into a 2nd rate 3rd baseman. Webster would have been part of the farm pool. I said to include Bogearts only if better offers were on the table. They weren't.

    I also said to keep AGon, and wait until Crawbust (I said to avoid him like the plage in FA) came off his all-time trade value low before trading him. I said to trade Buckett, separately, last summer.

    If this team had AGon and J. Upton, they would be a contender instead of the pretender that's now getting exposed.

    No, it's not all about the pitching. It's about both, and the Red Sox are unable to match most AL teams when it comes to slugging in the 81 games they play in one ballpark.

    Yes, the GM is incompetent.



    Fess up, clown. You have been so wrong on virtually every position you have held; you've become the board joke.

    AZ did not want Ellsbury. Period. They would have wanted Middlebrooks, which you bashed notin for saying he'd have given him up for Upton. It would have taken Bogaerts, who you now deny saying you would have included. You story changes by the minute.

    1st you said you'd give up Bogaerts.

    2nd you claimed you said only if AZ insisted and no other offer was superior (like Ben would know what other offers had been made).

    Now, you say Bogaerts was not included.

    Stop the lies, and at least fess up to one mistake out of your thousands.

    Don't bother restating my mistakes for the hundreth time. I admit to mine, so unlike you, you score no points doing so.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: 2013 Off Season Rebuttal

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ever-repeated and laughably bad offers of Ellsbury and some farmhands were ludicrous (and actually inferior to the package the Dbacks received

    Wrong, pal. Ellsbury plus draft compesnation plus 3 or 4 farm hands from anyone but Bradley, Barnes and Bogaerts is superior to the package the Dbacks received. Ellsbury plus draft compensation could have been converted into a 2nd rate 3rd baseman. Webster would have been part of the farm pool. I said to include Bogearts only if better offers were on the table. They weren't.

    I also said to keep AGon, and wait until Crawbust (I said to avoid him like the plage in FA) came off his all-time trade value low before trading him. I said to trade Buckett, separately, last summer.

    If this team had AGon and J. Upton, they would be a contender instead of the pretender that's now getting exposed.

    No, it's not all about the pitching. It's about both, and the Red Sox are unable to match most AL teams when it comes to slugging in the 81 games they play in one ballpark.

    Yes, the GM is incompetent.



    Of course, if you were the GM, you'd have already trade the farm for Hanley, when his value was at an all-time high, and have re-signed VMart for $52M/4.

     

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